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Podcasts/Sacred Tension-Why I Still Call Myself a Christian

2022-10-11T08:06:17Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

Why_I_Still_Call_Myself_a_Christian
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
myth, christianity, christian, podcast, steven, religion, creed, christ, support, minimalistic, wander, accept, star review, doubt, non theism, unfalsifiable, episode, stories, bradford, traditional
SPEAKERS
Stephen Bradford Long

Stephen Bradford Long 00:17
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the spiritual discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven long. You can find the full transcript of this mini episode at Steven Bradford long.com. I've spent a great deal of time on this podcast exploring the ways in which my faith has transformed from the reassuring, cozy, traditional Christianity of my childhood. I've wandered far from home into non theism, flirted with blasphemy and questioned the existence of the supernatural altogether. Many would say, I'm not a Christian at all, and they might be right. If one defines Christianity as taking the Nicene and apostles creed as literal truth, then I certainly don't qualify. I think I stopped believing the Creed's long before I ever accepted my crisis of faith, perhaps post Christian would be a more accurate descriptor. I've entered a terrain which is beyond traditional Christianity, but only accessible by way of Christianity. And yet, I still hold on to the label Christian. And the reason is simple. I can't give up my love affair with the myth of Christ. I can't let go of the story about the God man who came to Earth told stories taught love and radical peace and then modeled ego, death and resurrection, the path we are all meant to follow day after day, in the most simple, minimalistic way possible. I am a Christian, a follower of Christ, someone who makes Christ the most central image of my inner guiding myth. I'm not sure I can help myself. Religion is mapped onto my being like a language. From the earliest days of my life, no matter how much I may doubt, wander and reject the unfalsifiable claims of religion. I can't rid myself of religion and I don't think I need to. If this minimalistic Christianity strikes other Christians as heretical to little cloying and pandering to worldly doubt, that's fine. I accept that. But I welcome others into my minimalistic religion with me, those who doubt struggle and yet still yearn for religious life. We don't have to believe in God or the supernatural. We don't even have to accept the stories about Christ as true. I think many of them are probably legend, we can embrace the myth of Christ, the transcendent, self sacrificing path that myth sets before us. And that I think, makes us Christians love my work and want to support it, go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long and for $1 A month or $5 a month you will get a separate patrons only podcast called the House of heretics. You can also support this show by commenting on this episode by going to Steven Bradford long.com. You can also support it by leaving a five star review on iTunes and sharing it with your friends and on social media. And as usual, thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-what took you so long8yw09

2022-10-11T08:06:17Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

what_took_you_so_long8yw09
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, white, whiteness, person, tears, aspect, podcast, pandemic, emotions, hear, talking, killed, weaponized, life, irish, type, rock candy, tension, long, bit
SPEAKERS
Peterson Toscano, Ally Henny, Stephen Bradford Long

Peterson Toscano 00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast. Hi, I'm Liam Hooper. And I'm Peterson Toscano. Together, we co host the Bible bash podcast. Each month we look into a different ancient story. We're curious to find insights into our own queer lives. We discuss these and share our findings with you. You can find the Bible bash podcast pretty much anywhere you listen to podcast, new episodes come out at the end of each month.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:01
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long, and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com. All right. Well, before we start things off today, I have to thank my latest patrons. So we're all struggling right now the economy is taking a massive downturn, a lot of us are suffering. And I have taken a tremendous financial hit. I'm working fewer hours as an essential worker to reduce my exposure to the public. I am not teaching yoga at all. And that was a big chunk of my income. And so every little bit helps. If you are able to give to creators you love, then please do so because creators especially small independent creators, we're struggling right now. If you are able to donate to my Patreon, I so appreciate it. And it really is the lifeblood of the show. I cannot do what I'm doing without my patrons if you enjoy the work that I do, if you enjoy the speaking that I've done, if you enjoy all the other projects, all the other podcasts, part of the network that I am working on, then you donating to Patreon helps all of that. But I say that with the caveat that I need you to first take care of yourself and your family. I will be okay. If you are not able to donate Please don't. Don't feel guilted into giving. Please take care of yourself first. If you have the margin to give right now though, I really would appreciate it. So the patrons who I have to think today are I'm pulling up the app. I should have been more prepared. All right, as rial Make Love Not money, Betsy, Caroline, Isaac and Krista. Thank you all so much. And Patreon is not the only way to support the community. You can also go check out all the other rock candy shows, Bible bash, bubble and squeak, calm and creatives 11 D life and we are having more shows on the way if you're interested in joining our network if you're a podcaster and think that you would benefit and contribute to our weird culture of curiosity and compassion and making the world a weirder and more interesting and compassionate place. Please send me an email I would love to hear your pitch for the show. And another way you can contribute to the community is by going to the satanic temple.tv. It is a platform streaming platform hosted by the Satanic Temple. They have all kinds of documentaries and rituals and live streams and talks lectures on there. If you are into Satanism, or a cult, Satan pagan adjacent. If you're interested in new religious movements, then please go check it out. I have a promo code that you can use. They are sponsors. They are a sponsor of the show. And my promo code is sacred tension all caps, no space, and you can use that at checkout to get one month free. All right, well, moving on with the show. I am so incredibly excited to welcome the amazing Ally Henny to the show. Ally, thank you so much for joining me.

Ally Henny 04:59
Thank you for how having me on.

Stephen Bradford Long 05:01
So I love you. I'm, uh, Stan you know, I found you on Twitter and, and I saw some of your Twitter threads and I was like, oh my god, I have to get her on the show because you're just, you, you're amazing, I love you. So tell tell my audience some about who you are and what you do.

Ally Henny 05:27
So I am a writer, activist, blogger in the in the realm of race and cultural identity and that sort of stuff. And so, that sort of, that's really my side hustle even though it's definitely it's my side hustle, but it's definitely kind of become a thing, especially for me during during the pandemic, because my day job for the last off and on for about the last 12 years is that I'm actually a Christian minister, I've been involved in ministry, oh goodness, since since I was 18 years years old, and so have have worked in work in churches just finished seminary and everything which has been, which has been a good experience for me. And it's definitely you know, as a, as a person in a faith, you know, I respect respect that, you know, a lot of different people have a lot of different journeys have a lot of different, you know, things and so as a as a person in the Christian faith community, even recognizing that sometimes my my work as an activist puts me in tension with with certain faith communities puts me puts me in in tension and I definitely have have found have found ally ship have found, I'm not sure the right word to use, but definitely have have grown in empathy toward people who, whose identities whose whose, whose faith or lack of faith or no faith has has put them also on the outs with those who are dominant in society, whether that be white people, whether that be straight people, whether that be cisgender men, whether that be the religious establishment that a lot of people try to deny exists in our country, but certainly is there. And yeah, so that so that's kind of, you know, what I who I am and kind of, in kind of what I do,

Stephen Bradford Long 07:42
that's amazing. I love that Yeah, I like to call myself an ecumenical slut. Like I you know, my, my personal religious identity is I'm a member of the Satanic Temple, which is a new religious movement. But I this show really is, is not exclusively about Satanism, I want to talk to all different types of religious people and, and find common cause because, you know, the stakes are so high right now. You know, we have massive inequality and climate change, and, and it just all of that stuff on on the horizon and in our world, and we can't afford to not find alliances, you know, like the, the stakes are too high, in my opinion. So this show is all about that and having those conversations. So I've been asking this of my, of my guests lately, through COVID. How, how are you doing? How, what has life looked like for you lately?

Ally Henny 08:52
Yeah, it's life has been very interesting. For me, I will say that, like, there have been some changes for my family, but my husband works from home. So there really wasn't a change. In that respect. I was whenever the pandemic hit, I was finishing up seminary, and so I was already an online student, so that that aspect of it didn't really change. You know, my preschooler only went to school, two days a week. So I was used to having her around. So some of the biggest changes for my family has been the fact that my kindergartener, And now and now, first grader, of course, she wasn't going to school. And so once the pandemic had, what they had started shutting stuff down during the pandemic, or for the pandemic, during Art, my kids spring break, and so, so there was kind of a week of where we were already kind of Yeah, it was, it was for And break, and then kind of your found out that, okay, they're going to, they're going to cancel school for the week after spring break. And then once that was over, because that was kind of within that initial two week period where they were saying, Okay, we have 15 days to just stop the spread. So so let's do that. And so then after those 15 days were up, the school district came back and was like, yeah, it looks like we're gonna have to have to cancel school some more rather, they didn't cancel school, school went to online learning. And so they went to online learning for a little bit more. And then I was living in Missouri at the time. And then my family, actually, in the middle of the pandemic, we actually relocated to Chicago. So that so that's been that's kind of an interesting aspect. But kind of during, during all of that, the governor of Missouri, shut down the schools, he said that schools would would all schools needed to suspend in person learning, so no more in person learning, everybody if they could get online. And if they couldn't, they just then no school and just set a universal end date for for the school, which is significant for Missouri. And just in the respect that like, you know, we were we were state that that has that hat, we'll have a lot of snow days and stuff during the year. And we were also one of the states that were the had some of the slowest response to the to the virus. And so it was so it was very significant for them to decide to shut stuff down. So kind of but but that, that affected us a little bit, but then as we moved in to Chicago in May, and so we just have been kind of adjusting to being a new in a new home in a new city, yet still somewhat quarantined, they've opened stuff a little bit, but we, but we mostly stay in the house, but we mostly stay in the house anyway. Si Si for school, you know, with with everyone with everyone working with everyone working from home, so there really hasn't been so there's been a disruption for sure. For my family, but not like a whole whole lot.

Stephen Bradford Long 12:23
Yeah, you know, I've said this before on the show, and this is not at all to downplay you know, how deeply collectively traumatizing this time has been for a lot of people. I am I am kind of living my best life. You know, I've always been a sweaty gamer boy, like basement dwelling, gamer boy. And so I'm living my best life. Like I've always I've always been been isolated and antisocial. So this is this is just like normal life for me except being an essential worker through, you know, a plague that has that has been deeply, deeply, deeply stressful. But yeah, you know, home life for me hasn't really changed. So I, I relate to that. So I, I thought that the direction that that we could go in for this episode. Your your Twitter is and you also host a podcast called combing the roots. And you also write for a blog and various outlets. I think if I read your bio correctly. Yes, that's right. Cool. So you're, you're just such a great articulator of what you need white allies to do. And in what you need from from white allies. And I feel like we're at a point where a lot of white people are, are kind of waking up to, to the problem of, of systemic racism, police brutality, the widespread racism that exists in our country and how deeply ingrained it is, you know, these these ongoing protests, I think they're, they're working in that they are waking up a lot of people but at the same time, a lot of people are waking up and don't really know what to do. So what where would you Where would you take it from here, you know, say, say I'm a white person who is just waking up to this issue. What would you tell me?

Ally Henny 14:48
Well, the first thing that I would would tell you are really more like ask you is what took you so long? Yeah, why are you here now? And the reason And people kind of get upset whenever I take this tack or really say kind of anything along these lines, because they feel like well, you know, people are just, you know, they're, they're becoming aware. So so we should be, you should be happy about that you should be thankful it doesn't, it doesn't really help your cause, to, quote unquote, beat people up as soon as they decide to align themselves. And for me, you know what it's not, it's not about beating anybody up. Even though there are like literal people who have been beaten up for this literal black people whose lives have been ended in this fight for our rights, or just, you know, our lives being just ended period, indiscriminately, period. So I think that it's a bit it's a valid question here. And if and if that question maybe puts a little bit of I don't know, creates a little bit of, of tension or discomfort. For someone, I think that that is a good place to begin a good place to explore. Because that's how you answer that question, really determines the rest of the conversation. And the reason why the reason why I focus so much on at this point in the game, why why did you just now decide to jump on is because there we have been in a, I refer to it as like the second civil rights movement, or, you know, the new civil rights movement or civil rights 2.0 We have been in a in a heightened state of racial awareness. As a nation, there has been a national conversation going on about this since 2014, since the murder of Mike Brown. Now, some of this conversation, there were rumblings of this conversation, whenever Trayvon Martin was murdered, but Michael Brown, that was Ferguson, that was that was kind of the moment where black lives matter which had existed before then this this concept of Black Lives Matter. We're not even talking about the actual organization. But talking about the hashtag that was asked where it started with it with a hashtag starting about starting with that movement. That's been around since 2011 2012. And so white people didn't become aware of it until 2014. A lot of white people tend to become aware of it since 20, until 2014. So here we are in 2020. With with ahmaud arbery and George Floyd and breonna, Taylor, and the Depop, and the ANA Dior, and Tony McDade, and countless others that that have been murdered, just within the last three months just since or within, I guess, since we found out about it, just within the last couple of months, because of course, Aman and Brianna, they were killed in February and March respectively, they were murdered in February and March respectively. And we didn't find out about their murders. until like, May. And so April, May. And so I think that it's important to to ask this question of where are you? Because there have been so many, just talking about like the black people that have been that have been killed that have been that have been murdered at the hands of police just talking about the police brutality aspect of it. Let's not you know, forget some of the some of the other things like barbecue Becky, and other things were necessarily people weren't necessarily killed, even though some people were killed or were assaulted by the police. Just just the instances of deaths alone, there's been so many things that have happened. There's been this this heightened conversation. So for a person showing up showing up in May of 2020, or June or July of 2020. For me that says that there that you had to have consciously been been sticking your head in the sand, as it were and ignoring what had happened, especially whenever I think you know, about like ahmaud arbery. We've seen that before. That was Trayvon Martin we've seen before where a person deputized by nothing else, but their whiteness, going and killing a black person, a young black person, for no other reason than they were they were someplace where they didn't think that they should be a mod arbery is Trayvon Martin in the daylight, a little bit a little bit older. That's that's really all that is. We've had, I can't breathe. We have had that before. That was that was Eric Garner. That was Eric Garner in New York whenever he was choked. out by the police for selling loose cigarettes. We've seen, we've witnessed that that was his death was on camera. We've seen this before. So why all of a sudden is George Floyd, the the catalyst for you to for you to be here?

Stephen Bradford Long 20:17
Right? Yes. And do you find personally when you have these conversations? And when you ask, or you know, and when people are just kind of waking up to this? Do you find that a lot of white people expect you to kind of pat them on the back and say, Good job?

Ally Henny 20:38
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think that the way that it kind of comes off is, oh, my goodness, you know, a lot of times people are like, Oh, my goodness, I just had no idea how bad things were. And I say this, and I don't and I understand that. It's all it's all well, meaning. Very rarely is somebody showing up. Like, I'm the, you know, I'm the best thing that's ever happened to social justice. And Archie so glad that I'm here. Most people know nobody, nobody really does that. But most people show up with the other show up with like, their white guilt and contrition. And so it's like, Oh, my goodness, this is so bad. I can't believe things are so bad. Oh, this is a horrible, whatever they they they come they come with it with their white tears. They come with their their anger, they come with it with their with their righteous indignation, which, which, you know, definitely is a valid posture is a valid it's a valid emotion to have to feel to feel righteous indignation, you know, people people come with, with kind of all sorts of, of different different things. There are people that recognize you know, okay, like this. Now, I'm convinced that stuff is bad, you know, it took, it took maybe, you know, three or four things happening, for them to really recognize, as an activist, somebody has been talking about this for a very long time. At this point. There are some people that I've that I've gotten where it's been, like, you know, you've been talking about this for such a long time. And you know, at first I was really offended by what you said. But now I'm starting to see it. Now. I'm finally you know, you have people that that are like, I've seen the light, you have that sort of thing, but but often what it is, and I think that often, what, what, under, what's the undercurrent of all of those things that I just mentioned, is I'm here, please absolve me of my white guilt. So it's like, please, you know, come, oh, High Priestess, of, of racial harmony, racial healing, absolve me absolve me of my sense. And so like, that's, that's something that I think, a lot of white folks that whether or not it and I think that for some people, is definitely conscious, I think that it's definitely there are some people I think that is definitely a conscious, like, I like I need to feel I need to feel better. I think that some people, it's unfair, some people's unconscious, in the sense of, they would never put that language to it. But at the end of the day, especially the ones that go the people who go out of their way to approach black and brown and indigenous people. And like, kind of, you know, we're not really holding hands or touching anybody right now in a pandemic, but but but like, the visual image that I have of this, and the visual image that I have, whenever I get these types of messages is this white person running and gripping both of both of my hands, and and holding them up kind of your clasping them and being like, Oh, this is so bad. Oh, I'm so sorry. Also, so whenever, is that what what's behind that is contrition. It is like, Oh, my goodness, like I need I need for you to help me to feel better. But then also, like I need for you in making me feel better. One of the things, one of the things that I need is reassurance that I'm that I'm still a good white person, because I recognize and acknowledge this, which is why that's often My first question to people or something kind of of that nature. Or if the if the situation maybe is not necessarily appropriate to snatch a wig in that in that respect. Often, you know, something that I that I say, in some shape or form is kind of like, Yeah, I've been talking about this for a long time. And so yeah, this has been going on for a minute. Like I try to throw that in there. Because I think that, you know, it's easy, but like what people think that because white people often think whenever that something doesn't exist, until they acknowledge it. Its existence. And so it's like I need I need to, I think that is important to break that down. And for people to realize that social justice didn't begin with them, and it's not going to end with them. And so you know, a lot of people show up thinking that you know, that they're going to solve the problem, that they're that they're now them talking about, and throwing in that somehow, they're going to do something different and better and whatever, then what, then what has already was already being done, and they don't necessarily, and I say, I said earlier, that it's not, I don't think that anybody shows up thinking that they're God's gift to activism or anything like that. But at the same time, I think that just that just kind of what's inherent in whiteness is is kind of like this problem solving. Like I can, like, I have the solutions, I know, know very little, but have, but have a lot of ideas on how things should should be and how things should run and what and what the issue is, and whatever.

Stephen Bradford Long 26:04
When people do that, when when a white person, you know comes up to you and clutches your hands and and you know, kind of gives up gives off that vibe that you just described as Oh, priestess of racial harmony, please absolve me of my white guilt. What is going through your mind and emotions? When that happens? What does that feel like to you?

Ally Henny 26:32
You know, I feel a mix of emotions, if I'm if I can be if I can be frank, I feel a mix of emotions, you know, on the, on the one hand, there's, there's, there's a bit of me that feels because I am I consider myself to be a try to be a compassionate person, you know, I try to I try to be somebody that that my my ethics, you know, my faith and my ethics, move me toward compassion for other people. And, and move me toward forgiveness, move me toward, you know, that that type of thing. At the same time, it also is really frustrating. And it's also so there's kind of like this mix of things. For me. Honestly, like, whenever, whenever I encounter that type of thing, I try to be as as gracious and as humble as I can in the situation. And recognize, okay, you know, they, they are at least trying and acknowledging that somebody they're at least trying and so we know great, wonderful. But there but there's an aspect of it to that depending on on who it is and what it is and kind of how how much of a scene they're making out of it. There's an aspect of it that is kind of humiliating, in the sense of, like, this is really thick, this is really awkward. It's kind of like whenever a person's emotions don't don't necessarily match the situation at hand. And so you're kind of like you know, somebody like, figuratively like weeping on you it's not that you don't have compassion on them. It's not that you don't that you don't you know, you're just like this this hard hearted person. It's like, No, you know, I hate your emotions. At the same time is sort of like okay, like, this is like pull yourself together fam. Like so there's like that really? That really is kind of like okay, like Yeah, I get it like yeah, white people do a lot of stuff is trash like I get it like you're like You're like you are really embarrassed and you to be right white right now. Like yeah, totally, totally understand it. But okay, I need for you to pull yourself together. Because what that gets into is so for me kind of where that where that compassion piece where that where there's where there's where there's tension there for me is that of course you know I want to be I want to be compassionate. I want to acknowledge the person and kind of know the other it all of their their dignity and worth as a person yet at the same time, the subject matter is you have been in a position of oppression and sometimes it's sometimes you know, having a relationship with with the person to where it's like if this is somebody that I that I as I've known and have had has had a relationship with in some way and they come to me and this is kind of like okay, but you're but you're complicit in my oppression so like you know, glad that you feel bad about that or glad that you that you that you feel bad about some aspect of of that that you're becoming aware of how you personally have been complicit and in my in my oppression, but at the end of the day, like you coming to me with your white tears like that's really Not that that's not doing anything that that that is more for you than it is for me, right. And so, so that so it's like you so I say all that is like there's a tension of having a passion on, okay, you know what you're coming to me you have emotions that are that are valid, and are at least worth acknowledging that like, okay, you know, you have whatever feelings that you that you have, and you have a right to those feelings, but then also, just just bringing the truth of this is something that has been used, but like, I'm glad that you are finally aware, I'm glad that you are that you are finally listening. But you are finally deciding to hear people what people like me have been saying, for a very long time, for centuries. Even. That's, that's great. That's, that's wonderful that you've done that. But okay, you know, pull yourself together, and you need to get out there and you need to do the work because at the end of the day, like your white tears don't do anything. Your white tears, don't your white tears in my in my you know, Facebook messages, your white tears and an email, your white tears in a message on Twitter in a Twitter thread or whatever, that does nothing for my liberation. that exercise is merely for you. Yeah. And so I like I said, acknowledging the human component of it, but also saying, okay, great, you did that you cried your tears, dry your face, and go out and do better.

Stephen Bradford Long 31:34
I love that. Thank you. So I want to make just a few definite, I want to get a few definitions before we move on. So there are just a few words that you used in the conversation so far that people who might be new to this have might not know what this means. What do you mean by whiteness?

Ally Henny 31:56
Whiteness, so yeah, so basically, whenever I say whiteness, I don't necessarily mean being a white person, even though being a white person is part of whiteness, what whenever I say whiteness, often I am referring to the culture, the system, that that tells certain people that because of their skin color, or the perception of what their skin color is, or their their ancestry, whatever, there's this there's this whole system that was created by people who were from Western Europe, a lot of them namely, your the British Isles, namely the people, not just the British Isles, but also but also us Portuguese. Also some of the people who were out here, trading slaves way back in the day, there is there is a system that confers social benefit on people who are able to to fit into certain social criteria to be white. And what a lot of people don't realize is that some of the people who we consider to be white today are white, whenever they in America, were not white when they first or whenever their immigrant group first arrived in America, most notably the Irish, we will consider Irish we will be White would like today, a lot of us will be like, oh, yeah, Irish people. Yeah, yeah, they're white, but whatever. But incidentally, Irish people first started immigrating to the United States. They were not considered white, they they largely are Catholic. They largely are not don't fit into that because that kind of lost that white Anglo Saxon Protestant mold. So they were considered to be another group. And so a lot of them because they they didn't have some of the some of the ties to Britain, they didn't have the lineage. Some of them didn't have the nobility. They didn't they didn't have the resources or means that a lot of their British descended counterparts did. They came into the United States as a as a very kind of poor kind of working class group of people. But what happened was, is because because I started writing here during slavery, a lot of them became became slave masters or became became overseers some of them even were able to social climb enough to be able to own a little bit of land and to own slaves. And that was considered a thing that was that was that made one's social standing behind it, but by and large, a lot of a lot of Irish people were poor. What ended up happening is Irish people at first were kind of, you know, they because they were oppressed economically. There was some sympathies there with with slaves, and there became a point in which the white landed gentry recognize that If the Irish and if other poor people, other poor people, or other poor, quote unquote white people, if they could if they could identify with the social struggle of people who were enslaved, because a lot of the Irish people, and a lot of Scottish people, a lot of British people who were who were poor and who were debtors, they entered into India, they came over here and entered into indentured servitude, which was a condition of servitude, that they, a lot of them were in it for seven years, and then they can't get out of it. Whereas slavery was a perpetual condition that it became it quickly became codified that slavery was, somebody could be born a slave, and people and family lines could be born into slavery in perpetuity. And so what some of these people in power recognized was that these poor people would, that they could, they had more cause often with the slaves, it was the people who were enslaved. And so the people who were in power made it more beneficial to be white, to be to be to be identified with some of these with some of these other other groups that really weren't considered white, they kind of grandfathered them into whiteness. And so that's sort of that as long winded but it is actually a lot more complicated in how people became white how people in how people with a certain skin color in the United States became became white. So every group from from Europe and from Eastern Europe and from other from other parts of the world that have immigrated in there, they go through kind of this period of whether or not people are whether or not society is going to to to determine them to be white and then as people intermarry, and as always other types of stuff happens. There's, there's this there's this, there's this kind of trajectory that a lot of cultures have taken, where they the idea of the American melting pot, where basically like, like this, this was something that you even Schoolhouse Rock, had an episode talking about the melting pot, what people don't tell you about the melting pot, is that it took Is that is that whiteness, this idea that the dominant culture in America took what what it could appropriate, took what it deemed worthy from other cultures, and and kind of blended them in to this homogenous kind of thing. That's why you have a lot of white people who and I hate this, and I even hate to say it, but a lot of white people will talk about themselves as being much better. And I hate that I hate that phrase. Because it's so humanizing it. So whatever, but they use this phrase, and they'll talk about, and a lot of them aren't really Irish, but that's the whole thing. Everybody wants to claim to be Irish, like, because that's the kind we favorable, but it's not. But like, back in the day, nobody wanted to be Irish, because Irish people weren't white, and they had no power. But now as they pass today, everybody's Native American ancestry to with that score, that that score, that's a different, that's a different thing. But people talk about you. I'm German, and I'm Swiss, and I'm Irish. And I'm English, and I'm Slovak, and all these other types of things, where wherever they're wherever their people first came off the boat a lot. Those groups don't have nothing to do with one another. Yes, yeah. Yeah, they, they wanted to be together yet. Now, those identities, some of them are, some of them exist in people. And it's, it's a figment of people's imaginations, it's not really what they were people were something else. And they said that they were German, or whatever, for whatever reason. But those identities are able to coexist. And people You very rarely hear about hostility. You might there might be used in ethnic like, especially in places that are that are a little bit more diverse, like Chicago, or like New York or whatever, where there are these different different ethnic in clubs, where historically have been different ethnic enclaves. But anyway, so all that to say that whiteness is this thing that was constructed, basically, so people who looked a certain way and who had certain privileges so they could retain that power, and then inflict oppression on people who are black, inflict oppression on people who were of Asian descent, inflict inflict oppression and genocide on indigenous people. And so it's something so that's essentially what I mean that's, that's super long winded. But that's essentially what what whiteness is, and hopefully your listeners understand that that convoluted idea or definition of what it is.

Stephen Bradford Long 39:44
I mean, thank you for that, because I actually think really, that that that amount of detail is necessary. I mean, this is historical. This is this goes back centuries. This is something you know, it isn't just an arbitrary. It Yeah, I mean it is It isn't arbitrary. And I think a lot of white people, you know, they they kind of Buck against the term whiteness, not really understanding that it has to do with, with social hierarchies and a cased system that, at least that's how I see it. And it's an it's a social construct. And you know, history over time has determined who and who, who is and who isn't, you know, this hierarchy has determined

Ally Henny 40:29
through this honorary status. Like that's the other thing too. Yes. Yes. Who gets who gets to be honorary white people?

Stephen Bradford Long 40:35
Yes. Well, so thank you so much for sharing that. And the next term that I would I would like to define is white tears. What do you mean, when you say white tears?

Ally Henny 40:48
So yeah, white tears basically, are when a white person realizes for the first time in some cases in their life, what it means for them to be white, not just that they're white, because they're not black, or they're not, or they're not Mexican, or they're not Korean. But they recognize that they're white, and that people who look like them, have and maybe even they themselves, have participate have inflicted oppression upon people, or they have participated wittingly or unwittingly, in systems of oppression. And it's sort of the feeling of guilt. And often there are literal tears that happen. But it can also be a figurative thing, where where that white guilt essentially comes out where people who feel they feel upset, they feel they feel some level of shame, or there's, there's a variety of motion of emotions that kind of are compounded, that that they express, and in those in those kind of spill out of them, whether it be through actual tears, or it be through words, or actions or whatever.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:03
And do you find that? And this is something that I'm personally curious about? Do you find that those white tears can be weaponized in a way that that takes the that takes awareness away? Or the emphasis away from black voices and centering black experience?

Ally Henny 42:26
Yes, absolutely. Because in fact, one aspect of white tears that I didn't, didn't talk about, I was just talking about it in the way that I was using it earlier. But another aspect of, of white tears, and this is something that is often attributed specifically to white women, is white people or white sis women, using their tears as a way using their tears and their whiteness, essentially, white tears being weaponized whiteness, using that as using their tears as a way to either avoid any type of of repercussions or consequences for their racist actions, or using that itself as a racist action or as a way to avoid accountability. And so So some examples of that are go back to you to barbecue. Did barbecue Becky? Or actually, no, no, I'm not gonna use barbecue Becky, I'm going to use Amy Cooper. That's the That's the latest example. She was a white woman in Central Park, who there was a black man, unrelated, as far as we know, whose name is Christian Cooper, who was birdwatching. Amy had her her dog in the park. And I believe the dog was unleashed. And the dog at any rate wasn't supposed to be in the part of the park that they were in or wasn't supposed to be unleashed, because it's a bird area, and the dogs kill birds. And so Christian had said, like, Hey, your dog is supposed to be on leash right now. Like, I'm a bird watcher. I don't want to kill me the birds, whatever, whatever. And so and he was just kind of like, oh, this was a beard a little blah, blah. And so what ended up happening is Christian was video ended up recording her on his phone with it with with video app on his phone, and Amy called decided that she was going to call the police. And what she said, here's the white tears part. If she's talking just the way she is, she's yelling, and she's, she's, she's going back and forth with him. So she says to him, Well, I'm going to call the police and tell them that there's an African American man harassing me in the park. So she calls 911. And she says, and she gets upset. She says, there's an African American man who's who's threatening me in the park. There's an African American man who's threatening me Oh, as she starts she starts crying she as she doesn't get quite the right reaction that she was expecting from the from the operator. She amps up and she's literally she went one moment she's she's talking to Christian just fine, she's she's mad, she's she's there are no tears, there are no anything but then as soon as she's on the phone with the authorities and is calling the cops, she gives this academy award performance of a fear and of being a feeling threatened. And she sounds like she's on the verge of cry. Those are weaponize what those are. Those are white tears as a white woman tears that are that are weaponized. So there's a saying that people say whenever white women cry, people die. And a historical example of that is the woman who reported it till he was just like a 14 year old kid. He said she said that he whistled at her. We know now 5060 years later, that her account of what happened was actually a lie. That woman is actually still alive to this day. And her family has her in hiding. She's she's like 80 something years old? Yeah, I think she's she's 80 something years old now might even be 90 years old. Now. Her family actually has her in hiding. Because they because of how in the in the tooth out, like 2005 2007, something like that whenever there was an investigation into the Emmett Till case as a part of some stuff that they were looking into cold civil rights cases, plate things where, where people were killed, or where the person the person who maybe killed somebody got off. They were the the Justice Department was looking at the FBI. And I think also DOJ was was working to convict people. And so kind of as part of that investigation, they found her got her story, and she admitted to lying. And so this 14 year old boy was killed because of her because of her weaponized white tears. And so her family has her in hiding. Now, woman's still alive. Do you think of it that she wouldn't? That she wouldn't be? But she's, but she's far as that as far as I know, she's still alive and kicking. But yeah. So that so there's an aspect of white tears. That is not just you know, the the guilt aspect. But there's an aspect of white tears, that is actually violent toward that, that the the avoiding accountability aspect of it, where you get called out on something racist. And so white women usually are the ones who do this, they, they start crying and saying that they never, they never meant to do anything wrong, and that they're not racist or whatever. So there's the avoiding accountability aspect of it. But then there's also the aspect of it, of weaponizing the tears as a way to cause harm to black run indigenous people.

Stephen Bradford Long 48:02
Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. And if, and I guess what I am hearing from this, the way I am internalizing this is, you know, I have I have emotions, but I and other white people need to be incredibly mindful of our white tears and the way in which we express our emotions. With that. Would you say that's a fair way of articulating that?

Ally Henny 48:33
Yeah, I would say that that's a fair way of articulating that. And I think that it's that you were talking about tears, but there's also white rage, there's white suspicion, there's white anger, there, there are things that that like there are different emotions, that can that white people experience that can be related to different types forms means of oppression of black, brown and indigenous people of color. And yes, you're you're very, very right, that white people need to be mindful of their emotions they need to be they need to be mindful of their other thought patterns of their of their feelings of all this different type of stuff. Because in situations in certain situations, those things can actually be weaponized. Those things can actually contribute to the V can contribute to the oppression of black brown and indigenous people of color.

Stephen Bradford Long 49:37
Yeah. So say that you Okay, so you've asked the person you've asked the the white person who has just recently, you know, realize that there is a racial problem in this country, you ask them, okay, well, what took you so long? And what's the next question? Or what's the next statement that you tell them?

Ally Henny 50:00
Well, after you, I hear what took them so long. And a lot of times, people don't know, people don't really have an answer for it. People, if they if they offer anything they might offer, they might offer excuses. It might, there might be things, what what that person offers and kind of how they respond to that. Definitely, you know, tells me about where they're at in the process. Because for some people, they're ready, they're ready to go on, you know, they're, they're ready to start to become an ally, coconspirator accomplice, whatever, whatever the word is, I really, there are people that have preferences and have strong preferences around the language in which we describe white people in the work, I will end up in, there are a lot of really good arguments, a lot of good, whatever, and I don't want to diminish or take away from those things. But honestly, I do believe that words matter. But I don't for me, where I'm at, in my, in my practice, the word doesn't actually matter. Ally is just an easy word to say, because it's less, it's way less syllables. It's four characters often or a ll y, I guess it's four, I should know that. That's how you also spelled my name the same way, I should know how many letters are in it. But anyway. So I mean, you know, it's, it's less, it's less characters is less syllables, it's just a lot, it's a lot easier to convey, the term has been around, I think, for a little bit longer. So it is, it is just easier to whatever. So I don't make any bones about that. But I know, but I know people who do, and you know, more power, more power to them for finding that fight. But whatever term that we're using for that this week, a lot of times people's response tells me kind of where they're at. And there's some people who they're, they're ready to kind of be, quote, unquote, in the work, they they recognize, okay, you know, hey, Houston, we have a problem. I'm part of the problem as a white person. And so like, let me like, like, Okay, what do I what do I need to do? Where do I need to go? Who want to do this? Or is there like a third class, I can sign up for like, what? Like, what do I need to do to do better, because I want to do better. There's, there's some folks that that fall into that. So that's a whole different, that's a whole different conversation than somebody who there's some people who, who I would maybe call fragile allies in that they they are, or maybe the better way to say is like fragile sympathizers in that they are sympathetic to the cause, their sympathy, they have sympathy for what's happening, they feel they feel bad, they feel guilty. But at the same time, they're maybe not really ready to do quote, unquote, the work. And what I mean by that, is that yeah, they on a on a human level, they recognize that there's an issue on a human level, they understand that people are upset. And so they, so they want to they want to sympathize. And they want to empathize, but where the fragility comes in, and we could talk about this in terms of in terms of white fragility, but where the where the fragile Enos comes in, where the fragility comes in, is that they that while they're sympathetic, they're not quite ready to admit their own complicity, or to admit the complicity of their family members, or, essentially, they're not ready to reckon with their place in history as a white person, and the implications of their place in history. And so they and so there are aspects of the conversation that they still might be hostile to, there might be some things that they essentially, they just want to, they want to cry the white tears, but they don't actually, like want to do anything about it. And then there are some people who just are they maybe on a human level, feel bad that they want somebody to get choked out on the street. But then once you kind of start to push them toward doing some work, once you start to kind of push them toward working on their white identity, understanding what it means to be a white person, understanding their their place in history, aka their complicity in what in what has happened, there gets to be a point in that, in which some folks get hostile and they and they get and they get angry, and they and they don't want want to hear about it, they feel they get defensive. And so a lot of times those those people until they deal with those feelings, they're they're not going to progress any farther. And in fact, some of those people can can get like really super entrenched in where they are, and actually say and do things that are that are kind of harmful. And yeah, it can it can be a whole scene.

Stephen Bradford Long 54:58
So I I think what I'm hearing is and the way I'm internalizing this is, you know, this is really about being a person of integrity. And the way I put this into, into my context is I was a 12 stepper. And the fourth I forget if it's the fourth or fifth step, but the fourth and fifth step is making a fearless moral inventory. And making a fearless moral inventory is that isn't Is that necessary step to making the world a better place. Like we can't make the world a better place until we admit the ways in which and until I admit the ways in which I have failed, right, like, I can't correct anything I can't. And so for me, I hear this and like, in terms of a fearless moral inventory, and so that I can be a person of greater integrity and actually do something tangible, to try to make the world a better place. And that means making a fearless moral inventory about the ways that I have contributed to white supremacy. Would you say that that's a fair articulation or good way to internalize what you're saying?

Ally Henny 56:15
Yeah, I think that I'm not overly overly familiar with the 12 steps. But I've a passing familiarity and I think that there is, even if you don't think of it in terms of of a 12 step framework, but even just a framework for recovery, there is there are a lot of things that that are in common between route between recovery, and between racism between between recovering from racism, essentially, because in a lot of ways, I think that it is a recovery process that for for people, and I certainly in making those parallels, and in, in in drawing some of the same symbolism, I don't want to diminish the the work that people have done in addiction in addiction counseling, I don't want to diminish the work that you and others have done in in recovery. And so, you know, I hesitate to make the to make a huge, like, say, okay, yeah, this is this, this corresponds to this. And that, because I because I don't, I don't want to chip in that aspect. Because I think that recovery is something that is that is important. There are a lot of there are a lot of people out there who have struggles with various addictions. And so I don't want to, I don't want to in any way, your co opt or or keep in that process. But I do. But with that said, I do think that there are aspects of whiteness, that create the same needs, into it to recover from that recovering from addiction does, and namely, the things that have to do with making amends with with the people who you've harmed, but then there's also in recovery, there's also doing work on yourself, that that helps you to be able there's doing work within yourself, that you recognize what maybe some of the sources of your addiction are what were the things why you why you would use whatever substance or whatever thing it was to cope. There are there are some definitely some some parallels there. And so I see that, you know, within with with white people, there is with whiteness, there's this aspect that you have to understand how your actions as a white person, affect have affected the people of color in your life or just in society in general. And sometimes that process might require listening to people and might require hearing, hearing painful stories of you know, when when I was you know, working at your at your at the place this place of employment, you set and did this whenever you said this racist thing and did and did this racist thing and this is how it impacted me. And you might have to sit and hear and hear that and make amends for it and and you know, sit sit with the the the pain and discomfort that it causes you to hear that at the same time. There's work on your identity that you have to do as a white person and recognizing some of that some of the areas some of the some of the ways in which your your your your participation in the system. You're witting and unwitting participation in the system has has oppressed others and so there are things that you have to do to recognize that to avoid Avoid doing certain things. And sometimes that's sometimes those things are things that feel good, that might feel good. I mean, you I think that that white savior ism is is one thing. You know, there are there are people out there who love to help. And they, they, they are helpers by nature, and they love to help, but their help their idea of helping big comes off in a way that is toxic and harmful to other people. And it's rooted in ideas about other people a bet is rooted in ideas about people from from other, from other civilizations, people from other parts of society. And so part of that work is is saying, Okay, well you know, your desire to help people, that's okay, but you're saying that you're going to, you know, go to the south side of Chicago, and you're gonna go on, you're gonna live on all these people. Because they because, you know, they're all they don't have fathers and they're all oppressed in their own gangs, blah, blah, blah. That comes off as super to humanizing the people who are who are actually there. So yeah, you know, we can, we can say, like, hey, they're, they're dirt, there certainly are some issues on the Southside of Chicago, but you and your little nonprofit organization aren't going to solve half of them. And you're actually going to create a bunch of new problems. Because all because it because you are approaching these people like their projects and not like, a are actual human beings with with a story. And with a with a reason for acting the way that they that they do, and you just see them as your as your pets, that you can that you can gather around them, and post for pictures and posted on Instagram. And so, um, so I think that you know, that there's a there's an aspect and for some people, it takes some work for people to admit, to be able to say, you know, what, I'm a white person, you know, by my name, my name is Karen, and I'm a woman who weapons who has weaponized her tears before, like, there's like there's, there's a process that people that people have to go through to recognize that and there's not, there's not, you know, an end to it. A white people are always going to be peeling back the layers of the onion of their whiteness. You know, I'm 35 years old, I've been black for all 35 of those years. Even you know, somebody that that so I mean, I'm almost midlife now. So somebody who's who's 70 years old, who decides to, to enter into racial justice work? Well, guess what, I have a 35 year headstart on them. Even somebody who's older, anybody who shows up, it's like, I have it. And if they've been in it for a while, but I've been you know, I've been I have marched with Dr. King, you know, Bernie Sanders, guess what, I have a 35 year headstart on being a black woman over over even you know, some of the some of the most sympathetic white people who have been in the work for longer than I've been alive, there are still layers that have to be the have to be pulled back.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:03:23
I so appreciate that. Thank you for sharing that. And, you know, I, you know, I am a gay person. And I often find myself having to tell people, you know, tell tell clueless straight people. I am the one who's gay. Why, like, why are you like, Oh, my God, you know, like, why am and you know, not to compare black experience to gay experience. But there are a few, there are a few ways in which they, they're Yeah, there are a few ways in which they rhyme. You know, there are a few ways in which there's overlap and, and I think, you know, one of the things that I hear people of color articulate it that I relate with so hard, is just all these conversations with, with straight people who are new to understanding the issue. And they it's like, they come to me with this doctoral thesis about what it means to be gay, and the theology of it, and what to do about it. And I'm like, you literally just realized all of this yesterday, like, like, like, you literally just started this last week. I'm the one who has been living this every single day for 32 years. Yeah. Oh, my God is the most frustrating thing. So I I appreciate what you're saying. They're hardcore. Uh, well, I think this is a great note to end on. And I think I'm going to, I kind of want to bring this episode back to that, to that question, what took you so long. And I would really love for my listeners, if you happen to be one of those people who has just recently woken up to the realities of racial injustice and brutality against people of color, I encourage you to take the time, and ask yourself, what took you so long, maybe journal with it, you know, maybe maybe journal about it, talk it through with friends, if you have a spiritual advisor, talk it through with them. And there might be some rough emotions in there. Don't be afraid of them, just let that big wave crash over you. It won't kill you, I promise, though, your emotions are not going to kill you. And just do a really honest assessment. And and I think that's a good start. Is there anything that you would like to add?

Ally Henny 1:06:19
No, I really think that you said it all. I think that that is that that is a great place to start starting with those questions. I like how you said to journal on it, whatever. I think that that's that, that that is an important aspect of it to do the work and to do the processing internally, I think is is really important. You know, a lot of folks want to, you know, jump out and want to externally process and like you said, like, come up with that with that doctoral thesis, and bring it to, to their to to their favorite black or queer person, or black and queer person, and be like, Oh, hey, do you I just came up with this thing. And it's like, okay, that really wasn't a big revelation. But thank you.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:07:07
Thank you for that I appreciate.

Ally Henny 1:07:10
Thank you for first stating for stating the obvious what has been obvious but great, he realized that awesome. Tell your people about it. But yeah, but I think that going through that phase of processing it internally, and if you need to externally process, maybe externally processing with your favorite white person who is farther down the line in the work, then you are, I think that that's something that that's, that's really important. Because it'll say it'll save you and me and other people of color, a lot of emotional labor and a lot of hurt feelings, and a lot of whatever. If you if you do that, if you kind of have you know, what I say there's like having a talk with us on that, like really saying, talk to Jesus, if that's not what you do, but the idea is like, you know, you have you take that to somebody, and if Jesus is your higher power, talk to Jesus about it, you know, talk to whoever whoever was, whoever it is about it. But you but you're, you're doing that stuff in in your own kind of kind of space, and not and not invading, and not invading people of color space with it.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:08:23
For people who want to find your work, where can they do that?

Ally Henny 1:08:28
Yeah, so I have a Facebook page is just my name. It's a public page. It's I think that the list that the category on is writer or whatever, and so I have a so I have that I post there pretty much daily, during the pandemic, before the pandemic, I had posts that would go up every single day, at the same time, since like pandemic and really actually even say, since pandemic really since I finished with school and everything, I've been kind of taking taking a little bit easy. So those posted ability to come but they might, but they might come at different times a day. But the good thing is that I also have started posting multiple times a day so you get to see my my ideas and revelations or whatever you wanna call them multiple times today. So that's so that's one way that you can that you can get in contact with me that you can see my work. The other is on Twitter. My Twitter handle is at the armchair calm. And so you can I post threads on there that seems to be like a lot of what of what I post recently, it seems as of late that's been that's been the majority of what I do. And there's some good threads on there if I don't say so myself. I'm also on Instagram. Just just my name Ali Henny at Allegheny and I post you can kind of see a little bit more of a glimpse into my personal life but I do post stuff related that that's that's topical, on Instagram. There is also my blog The armchair commentary that's just the armchair commentary.com And I try to post to that weekly recently I try to post to it weekly I did not make it last week but I but I'm definitely you'll see more stuff there regularly and then I have a podcast called combing the ropes that is available pretty much wherever podcasts are available I think there's a few there are a few platforms that that it hasn't made it to yet but definitely you know, on on I guess the big three Apple Spotify and Google podcasts who you can find me there and then after you have donated to sacred tension if you have anything left over and obviously you know don't feel like it's like a whatever any type of pressure but I do have a patreon that's my name and you I tried to try to throw all kinds of extra materials and different stuff out on there every month so if once you've once you have you've given here and if and if you help to support then if you have any any other leftover you can head over to my Patreon and so yeah that's that's pretty much it.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:11:18
Or you know just reverse that and just go give money to ally All right, thank you so much. This has been a delight. You're welcome on the podcast anytime anytime you want to come on and chat just let me know.

Ally Henny 1:11:32
Well, thank you. I thank you so much for having me. It's been great.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:11:36
All right. Well, that is it for this show. Special thanks once again to my patrons who make this podcast possible. If you want to respond to this podcast I want to hear from you. You can send me your thoughts by going to Steven Bradford long forward slash contact or you can leave a comment on the blog page for this episode. If your comment is particularly excellent, I will feature it in my monthly best comments series. Also this podcast is written produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long the music is by the jelly rocks and eleventy seven you can find them on iTunes Spotify or wherever you listen to music and it is a production of rock candy media and as always Hail Satan we'll see you next week I was six years old Thanks. She Just To pay respect

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-what s going on with evangelicals9pywn

2022-10-11T08:06:16Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

what_s_going_on_with_evangelicals9pywn
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
evangelicals, people, disgust, atheists, called, feel, evangelicalism, christian, understand, worldview, rock candy, gay, prejudices, dynamics, book, satanists, world, satanist, research, fascinating
SPEAKERS
Will, John Morehead, Stephen Bradford Long, Joe

00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast.

Joe 00:02
Hey, I'm Joe and I'm a composer and a musician.

Will 00:05
That's why we call you the maestro. And I'm, well, I'm a literal Doctor.

Joe 00:09
But don't trust this guy with your ailments.

Will 00:11
No, I studied comic books, but it still counts.

Joe 00:14
We're a couple of creative kids who host the podcast called common creatives.

Will 00:17
We dig deep into filmmakers, musicians, books and characters really all types of artistic works and the people who make them.

Joe 00:23
We break apart the art we love to see what makes it tick. Basically, we

Will 00:27
give you the definitive take on whatever or whoever we're discussing, all opinions are definitive and final, so check

Joe 00:33
out common creatives wherever you listen to podcasts.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:03
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the spiritual discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long, and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, see the show notes of this episode, or go to rock candy recordings.com. All right. Well, before we get started, as always, I have to thank my patrons. My patrons are the lifeblood of my show, and my creative work in general. So it's really hard to make a living as an independent, low budget small time creator. And so if you have a creator, an indie Creator, who you really like, go ahead and send them money, go ahead and join their Patreon or buy their merch or whatever, because every little bit helps. You really need to support the artists who you like. And for now, I'm going to thank my latest patrons on Patreon returned No. Adam Akasha Patrick Devy Dev, John Billiam, Raj, Tina, w m, holy oak, Kelly Hein, hairy hoof clop. Ian and Darren these patrons make this episode possible. And if you want to join their number, please go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long and you will get all kinds of extra content every week. Also, I have started a Discord server for Sacred tension. So if you're like me, if you're like a clueless Boomer like me, I'm not a boomer but I have the headspace of a boomer. If you're like me, you didn't know what discord was. It is a platform for gamers that a lot of different creators are now using, they are now co opting to host their kind of private communities online. And it is a ton of fun. So if you want to come hang out with a bunch of Satanists, pagans, and progressive Christians, just all around degenerates and heathens, come hang out with us. There will be a link in the description to join my Discord community. I would love to have you on there, we share memes. We talk about all kinds of stuff. And you are more than welcome. Sometimes it isn't enough to just listen to a podcast, sometimes you need a little bit of community. And if that's you, then please feel free to join my Discord server. And finally, the rock candy Podcast Network is still growing. So if you like the shows on rock candy, if you like sacred tension, eleventy life, Bible bash, bubble and squeak and maybe some of the other shows that we have coming on board, and you have a show or you're thinking of starting one, and you think that it would be a good fit for the network. Please reach out to me, I would love to hear your pitch you can reach out to me by my via my website at Steven Bradford long.com. And if you want to contribute to the weirdness and all the glitter and neon and unicorns and degeneracy and Satanism going on on the rock candy podcast network, then please reach out to me. All right. With all of that out of the way. I am delighted to welcome John Morehead back to the show. So we did a conversation several weeks ago about Satanism and evangelicalism. John is an evangelical I am a TST Satanist, and we had an incredibly productive conversation. And it was in people just absolutely loved it. The satanist absolutely loved John, and I got many requests for him to come back. So here he is. John, welcome back.

John Morehead 04:54
Well, thank you. It's good to be back. Glad to know that it did something right and that folks enjoyed our prior conversation

Stephen Bradford Long 04:59
app. salutely And, you know, I think that our conversation demonstrates the fact that people liked it so much, demonstrates, I think the real goals of a lot of Satanists, the, which I think is plurality and EQ ecumenism, I can't say that word correctly, ecumenism, you know, plurality and ecumenism and, and dialogue and fighting for everyone's rights to practice religion, however they see fit as long as it doesn't infringe on others. And I think that's why people loved it so much, because you're very much about those goals as well. So go ahead and tell us some about who you are and what you're doing what you're studying.

John Morehead 05:48
I am the director of a nonprofit organization, the evangelical chapter, the foundation for religious diplomacy. Frd is made up of people from a variety of religious traditions for even eyeing the possibility of having an atheist or secularists chapter. And we're all committed to the idea of religious or inter religious diplomacy, that, that we have real differences, those differences matter. But what also matters is the way in which we navigate those and hold those in a peaceable tension, so that we can live together in a pluralistic public square. And I hit up the evangelical chapter, and I work to try and help evangelicals, conservative evangelicals, who tend to be either on the side of ignoring other religious traditions and atheism, or more likely being very defensive and confrontational about it in trying to understand why that is, and help them navigate that so they can be more hospitable and more peaceful in the way in which they relate to others in which they have serious disagreements.

Stephen Bradford Long 06:45
Awesome. Yeah. So I wanted to have you back on to talk primarily about evangelicalism because for people like me, I am a religious minority, and I am a sexual minority, I'm gay. And so for people like me, evangelicals are really frightening. And I used to be an evangelical years ago, you know, I was a missionary and YWAM and all that. So I think partly because of my experience within evangelicalism and my experience, after evangelicalism, I find and many people like me find evangelicals in this country, deeply terrifying. And so I wanted to have you on to kind of talk about their psychology, the psychology of evangelicalism to perhaps humanize, I don't mean that in a way that excuses their behavior, but just so that we can understand what what's going on. So let me just start with this question. So John, what the fuck is going on with evangelicals?

John Morehead 07:50
Well, it's interesting. You started there a few moments ago with mentioning some of your own biography. For me, this is in part, biographical or autobiographical. It's a part of my journey. Years ago, I was involved in what's called counterculture apologetic ministry within evangelicalism that is, I thought the way in which to understand and to try and persuade people who were in certain religious traditions, they tend to focus on particular groups that they find dangerous or threatening. So that would be Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, New Age movement, that kind of a thing. And the approach is, well, I'm gonna go to them and point out how their worldview and what they believe is unbiblical, and I'm gonna refute that. And then somehow, this person is supposed to say, Hey, let me embrace what you believe to be true. And I was involved in that very aggressive, polemical kind of approach to inter religious relationships for a number of years. But I've always been very well read, not just in theology, but sociology of religion, religious studies, and so on. And it started to dawn on me in my reading this looking even at the history of Christian mission, that a missionary overseas tries sympathetically to understand the culture and to embed themselves within it develop relationships as they share. Whereas in the American context, you'll find many evangelicals assumed this Christian nationalist kind of view. This is a Judeo Christian country, and those who don't hold to that or are outsiders, they may be a threat. And so there's this very confrontational kind of approach us versus them. And I found that problematic years ago, and I eventually pulled myself out of that counterculture, Evangelical community and continued reading and networking with others who are involved in things like inter religious dialogue. And so a part of my biography is having been in a very confrontational place and now reflecting in broader ways, seeing that that simply is problematic. It doesn't value the other appropriately objectifies them, and it's not persuasive. If you want to try and persuade somebody I'm all for persuasion. Whether between an atheist trying to, you know, convince a Christian there is no god or what have you, I'm all for that. But it needs to be done in respectful and hospitable kinds of ways. And at the end of the day won't if we don't persuade each other, we have to still have to figure out a way to live with each other, even in spite of our disagreements, so a part of what I'm doing is because of my own particular spiritual journey,

Stephen Bradford Long 10:21
that yeah, that's fascinating. Absolutely. And so my, and people who listened to the show are probably aware of this, my gut reaction, and my kind of very simplistic understanding, or diagnosis of how evangelical how evangelicalism has become so rotten is that it's a lot of us and tell me if this is right or wrong, that it has a lot to do with power. And maybe this, this craving for power that they feel is being lost in our culture. But the more I think about it, the more that feels like a very shallow diagnosis. For me. I think power plays a part. And I think evangelicals are maybe mourning or grieving are panicking, or filled with rage over the loss of power that they feel in our culture. And I think maybe that's where a lot of the toxic behavior is coming from. And by toxic behavior, I mean, you know, what you were just talking about, you know, kind of this us versus them ch mentality all or nothing approach. And but the more I think about it, the more I realized that this power diagnosis, you know, this this lust for power, it might be too simplistic of you. So what is going on there, tell, tell me some about what I see as a lust for power and trying to, you know, kind of control the identity of this nation of America. Where does that come from? Yeah, I

12:01
think I've

John Morehead 12:02
got some of the pieces of the puzzle and try and this is something I've wanted to understand for myself, and so that I can help the evangelical tribe understand the psychological dynamics of what's going on. And so, five years ago, we got our first grant from the Louisville Institute. And that was the for three years. And we put together case studies of evangelical churches who were relating to non Christian religionists in their neighborhood in positive kinds of ways. And so at the end of that three year grant period, my thought was, well, this is great that we found these few churches, the minority amongst other evangelicals, but the question is, then why are they why and how were they able to do it that way, rather than the dominant way of aggressiveness, and this what you call the lesser power that I think most evangelical churches are all about. And so we went back to the low violence to begin a supplemental grant for two years. And that involves a process of research in social psychology, a little bit of social neuroscience, to understand the psychological dynamics underneath the theology of opposition to religious others. You know, evangelicals are all about theology, and Bible verses and so on. And while I appreciate that level of discourse, nevertheless, in my thinking, there's a theology that results in a particular theology. There's so there are different.

Stephen Bradford Long 13:25
There's a there's a psychology that results in a project. Okay, yes, sorry

John Morehead 13:29
about that. Yeah. So these hospitable evangelicals have a particular psychology then there's a very different psychology for the majority of evangelicals. And in my thinking, theology is post hoc that is, there. They come to the biblical texts with presuppositions, and that determines the Bible verses they go to in the theologies they develop. So it's not just about theology. So I wanted to understand the psychology underneath that. And when I started my research process, I found things like the Pew survey in 2014, where they use the feelings thermometer, how do various religious traditions feel about each other? Do they feel warmly in positive or quarterly and negative. And what was interesting and sad is that evangelicals were on the cold end of the spectrum, in terms of how they tend to view other religious groups, and the bottom two, were Islam and atheism. And not surprisingly, other religious groups, then, in turn, view evangelicals more coldly than they do any other religious tradition. And that was in 2014. They went back in 2017, and did another survey using the same information. And they found across the board with the exception of evangelicalism, the other religious groups had gotten more warm and positive and how they viewed and felt other religious groups, whereas evangelicals stayed the same. And views about evangelicals had gotten colder in terms of how people viewed them. And so I wanted to understand And the feeling aspect of the emotions, a lot of the work in understanding religion, inter religious dynamics focuses on the rational belief systems and this kind of thing. And that's all important. But related to that are important emotional considerations tied to psychology. And so as we began our research, we did our own survey work. And I read through just a ton of social psychological literature and so on. And what I'll share with you just some summaries of some things. And if you want, if you have more questions, you want to go into more depth or afterwards if people want to get in touch and say, Hey, what was that source? You mentioned? I'd

Stephen Bradford Long 15:37
be happy to provide the specifics. I just don't want to get your audience bogged down and absolutely some of the technical and if and if you could send me the sources, actually, I will put them in the show notes. Okay.

John Morehead 15:47
Yeah, that'd be great. My initial theory going into this is that what the the key factor for evangelicals is the reaction of disgust. Human beings evolved with a disgust response in order to keep us healthy. We stay away from contaminated foods, things that smell bad, we have this visceral deep reaction in order to keep ourselves healthy and protect ourselves from things like disease. Well, what's interesting is over the course of history, human beings would not only develop physical disgust, but also social moral disgust that has certain individuals, certain groups, we find disgusting as a means of preserving our own conception of reality for our tribe. And I thought that might be something in fact, that might be the major thing going on for evangelicals, as I did research and social psychology, offense and interesting tests, experimentation that had been done with Christians, to see what was going on in terms of disgust. And what was interesting. In one of the tests, they discovered something that they call heretical disgust. That is, if they take Christians and have them read a passage from the Koran, or from an atheist writer, or what have you, and they tell them this is the source. Christians literally feel disgusted, and contaminated simply by reading texts from those that they seriously disagree with. And another worldview,

Stephen Bradford Long 17:11
that and that part, that's fascinating. Yeah, that's fast. So

John Morehead 17:17
they wrote a journal arc article on those initial tests, they went back and repeated it and did it and they found the exact same thing. And so I don't know if this is the primary dynamic is going on for evangelicals. But I have seen it when I was back doing my apologetic work. In the counterculture, I continue to see it today in inter religious dialogue, this visceral reaction of the other is going to contaminate me, and that's why I can't get too close. That's why I can't develop relationships. That's why I have to refute what they believe to be true, because that is a self defense mechanism. They literally find it hermetically disgusting, to be too close and too intimate with those with whom they have serious disagreements. So I think Disgust is one of the main social psychological reactions that's going on.

Stephen Bradford Long 18:06
That's fascinating. And, you know, I, I relate to that, in my own experience. And honestly, I think if it weren't for being gay, I would still be there. And because, you know, finding out that I was gay, and coming to terms with that through high school and college, absolutely horrific, brutal experience, it kind of almost killed me, because I was suddenly the object of my own disgust, and I couldn't, and suddenly, it wasn't just focused outward, it was focused inward. And so it was kind of this standoff within myself, where will my disgust when or will I break that disgust, and I was able to break the disgust and self loathing, but it took years and years in the process really did enormous damage. And if it weren't for that process, I don't think I would be where I am. Now, I think I would still be an Evangelical, I think I would still be, you know, pretty, pretty conservative. And, and still kind of guided by that sense of disgust. But I but when it comes to other people, I relate to what you're saying, because I remember years and years ago, when I was like 18, or 19, and I was just coming to terms with my sexuality. I remember getting on to a gay Christian forum and feeling this disgust towards other people on the forum for no reason. And assuming that it was some kind of spiritual taint, you know, assuming that there is some kind of spiritual taint. And I think what's really dangerous about this is there is there is this marriage between intuition and spiritual truth in the evangelical world that I find really dangerous so people don't people are I was given license to take my disgust and assume that I felt it because it was godly because it was spiritual. And when I assumed that I had that gift of discernment, quote, unquote, that and really, it was just, you know, this disgust mechanism inside of me, it wasn't spiritual at all. But when I assumed that it was actually God speaking to me, then that meant that my disgust, or my loathing was, you know, couldn't was untouchable, it couldn't be challenged, because it was the voice of God. That I think is what's so dangerous, when these deep intuitions inside of us that are not a good barometer for understanding the world around us or other people, when those things are embraced as the voice of God instead of challenge challenged is just these are human quirks that just need to be examined. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong, but we can't take them on their face value that I think is so destructive,

John Morehead 21:06
I would agree with you. And I would also point out, and this is not to justify evangelical disgust reactions, but we all to be human means to have a disgust reaction. And keep yourself healthy, whether it's Democrats and Republicans being disgusted by each other, or Muslims and Jews, whatever it is. Part of the healing process is to understand and recognize your own social psychological dynamics, and that it's there and to work through a process of re humanizing the other and recognizing that even if I seriously disagree with your worldview, even if I find it, it's just gross. I don't like it, that's okay. It's theirs, they have made their choice. And we have to figure out a way to navigate together and live together not only in our communities, but on this planet, in order to make it a safer place to live. So I think that so that heretical disgust was wasn't the only factor we discovered, but I think it's a significant one for evangelicals. What level

Stephen Bradford Long 22:05
does rage play in this, especially in things like the election of Donald Trump? Because I, I feel like the rest of America really underestimated the rage that evangelicals feel. Could you talk some about that? And maybe I'm completely wrong on this point. But I feel like there is some very, very deep anger that the that the rest of us just did not understand.

22:38
Yeah, I,

John Morehead 22:39
personally, I'm not a Trump supporter. But I do try to understand the dynamics that led for many evangelicals to to make that choice politically. I do think there were, and again, this is rightly or wrongly, this is about perception, keeping in mind for people perception is reality. Their perception of this portion of the electorate was that they were being left behind, they were disenfranchised. They were angry about it, they were angry about the Obama administration in their eyes contributing toward that, and they made their their choices electorally, accordingly, for Trump. And I don't think that really has been factored in and taken into account, I think the more we continue to simply be dismissive, label people's deplorables, and so on, it's not going to turn the tide for those who want to vote that particular type of politics out of office, I think we need to understand the anger and try and help those who voted that way deal with it. I will say related to that, as a part of our research, a lot of what we heard after the election of Trump was there was things like misogyny and racism and so on. Those were the key factors that led evangelicals to vote for Trump. I found an interesting study called Make America Christian.

Stephen Bradford Long 23:55
So let me let me back up just just to clarify what you just said. So, so what I'm hearing is that was it accusations of misogyny and racism that led that that made people feel really angry and led them to voting for Trump? Or was it actually misogyny and racism that led to voting for Trump?

John Morehead 24:19
No, sorry for my confusion there. What we saw in some of the analysis in Political Science and Social Psychology and so on looking at evangelical support for Trump was they felt that some of the key factors were actual misogyny and racism and things like that. Okay. And while that that may, those may have been factors, I think there's a greater factor that kind of serves as an umbrella under which other things may be found. So if you look at the Pew Forum, again, I find it a great source for good demographic data dealing with religion. They did a survey on What what are the key things you need to believe in the whole tool in order to be a true American and for evangelicals, one of the greatest things was you need to be a Christian. And so this narrative of Christian nationalism that this is a Judeo Christian country, we found in our survey research was an even greater factor then discussed was, and you know, some of our research, I found an article called Make America Christian again, Christian nationalism and voting for Donald Trump. They tried to factor in in their experimentation, where they factored in for things like race, and found that Christian nationalism has even greater explanatory power. And I think that you need to look at not only psychological factors to understand evangelicals, but you need to look at narrative factors. We all live within story, we all tell ourselves stories in which we live our lives. And for evangelicals, one of the greatest stories is Christian nationalism, that this was founded as a Christian nation will always be a Christian nation, and therefore certain things follow from that, you know, people need to get in line, if you're not really a Christian, then you're not really truly an American, or you're not a good American, at least. And so I think that Christians are angry because they're trying to connect their fortunes to Trump to try and bolster that idea of the narrative of Christian nationalism. I think that has great explanatory power for some of the angry feel

Stephen Bradford Long 26:21
that makes complete sense. You know, there are people like David Barton, I'm sure you're familiar with him, who create kind of this alternative. I think it's an alternative American history of Christian nationalism. And oh, God, I just had a question, and it was a really fucking good question, too. So, god dammit, give me just a second. It was right there. Okay. Oh, yes. So a lot of this is bringing to mind. A lot of this is bringing to mind the work of rod Dreher, who is not an Evangelical, he's a Catholic, and he's kind of he was Eastern Orthodox, and then he was a Catholic, and then he converted to Catholicism. No, no, no, no, it's the opposite. He is Catholic, and he was Catholic. And then he converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. But he has a book called the Benedictine option. And what I find so fascinating about that book, and I haven't read it all, I'm I'm planning on sitting down and working all the way through it, because it's just such a huge influence on so many people's lives. And the the premise is, our culture is so corrupt, and our nation is so corrupt, that Christianity has to withdraw into a kind of monastic setting, culturally monastic setting, and, you know, not focus so much on outward on outward expansion, but withdrawal into itself, to kind of cut to create an arc to weather, you know, this terrible, progressive secular storm. And then when it's time they, you know, the the arc can open and Christians can go back out into the world and continue to live, to bring Christian you know, other people to Christ. I don't know if that's a very good way of articulating his premise, but there you have it. But he, but it's so fascinating to me, why he says that this needs to happen. He says that it's because of the legalization of homosexuality. He says it's because of sexual liberation is because of secularism, not because of endless war, not because of the financial crisis, not because of income inequality, not because of climate change. And what strikes me is so interesting about this, and this is something that I you know, just looking back on my time as an Evangelical, and then you know, as a as an Anglican and I almost converted to Catholicism. And so my time in the Catholic world, these threats, these quote, unquote, threats they feel as existentially terrifying as climate change does to me now. And it the only way that I can describe it to people who don't get that is it's like, they're imagine that the universe is like a human body, and in altering things like marriage, or sexual morality, it feels like altering the very DNA code of the universe in such a way that can cause it to unravel or cause it to to fall apart and unforeseen and terrifying ways. And that fear was very real for me, and it took years for me to get over that to get over this, this feeling that me having a gay relationship is somehow overriding and mutating the DNA of the cosmos, or the DNA of society in the way that God intended. And to do that is to create horrific, you know, Chernobyl like mutations, that that will inevitably leave lead society to disaster. And so for, for I, for me, it feels like it's all the wrong priorities, you know, we should really be focusing on things like climate change and income inequality and that kind of stuff. But I also realize at the same time that these things feel as big, you know, that gay gay marriage and abortion they they feel as existentially huge. Anyway, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. But that's a that's a helpful exercise in empathy and compassion for me.

John Morehead 30:56
I appreciate that. I think once you people have a certain view of the way things are supposed to be. And once when that begins to change in substantial ways, it becomes very, extremely threatening. So I appreciate that, that empathy exercise there. Let me mention one other factor that we found a significant in our research. And that was this idea of, in academics call it mortality, salience, related to terror management. In other words, when people are reminded of their mortality and the threat of death, they tend to double down on their worldviews. And one of the things that hit this country and most Americans to the core was 911. And it shook people, they, we were this in impenetrable nation protected by the oceans. And all the conflict took place over there. And that all broke down on 911. And people were reminded of their mortality. And beyond that, the perpetrators were connected to Islam. And so for evangelicals, what's fascinating there was this interesting article in a religious studies journal, where an individual looked at evangelical writings and conservative publications pre 911, on Islam, and they tended to view Islam as a mission field and eat admissions and evangelism. And then he analyzed their post 911 writings and things changed dramatically after 911. Evangelicals were writing about Islam as possibly not even a religion. It's a political system bent on world domination, it satanic needs to be opposed. And so there was this dramatic shift now why the shift is because of the reminder of 911 that we are going to die and that there are people out there who may want to hasten that death process. And so that causes evangelicals to double down on their worldview. And it's not just evangelicals that do that. If you look at the research and mortality salience, whenever a group feels threatened by another worldview, and they're reminded of their own mortality, there's this human process, I'm going to double down on protecting the way I see the world. And that protects me from the dangers or the perceived dangers of the others who are out there. So 911 was a pivotal point of mortality salience is again in the mix. And the crazy thing about all of this is that here we are trying to work through the prejudices that evangelicals, here's what I'm trying to do help evangelicals recognize their own social psychological dynamics, and why they have the prejudices they do about certain religious groups. But psychologically, prejudice functions as a self defense mechanism. If I am prejudiced against those I find threatening, I keep them at bay, they're over there. I'm over here with my tribe, and I keep myself safe. So again, this is not to justify the prejudices, it's to understand the dynamics that are going on. So hopefully, we can help folks work through these and cross the prejudices and get rid of them and work together. Does that make sense?

Stephen Bradford Long 34:00
Absolutely. So to kind of summarize here, basically, you've pinpointed three primary guiding psychological forces than they could be described as discussed Christian nationalism, and the terror of death. And it was of which, you know, we were reminded of that, through things like 911. Yes. So how do you go about working through this with evangelicals? Like what's the process that you go through?

John Morehead 34:32
Yeah, that's that's the challenge. I continue to read and study and I think there's been more research done on understanding the dynamics and there has been I'm trying to put together a program of change. In fact, I watched a great program that was produced by Steven Spielberg called Why We hate if your viewers or your listeners get a chance, they should check that out. It's a it was a multiple part series going through some of the science It's, and in the final chapter of that program, there was a neuroscientist Emil Bruno, whose work is just fantastic, unfortunately, here's the cruel thing. He's a neuroscientist working for peace. And he's currently battling brain cancer. But his research is just amazing. In the final episode of that program, he pulled together a group of people who were working in various aspects of peacemaking, and dealing with prejudice. And he said, You know, we've spent the last 60 years trying to understand why we have these prejudices. But we spent very little time in that process of trying to figure out how to facilitate change. So there's not a whole lot of data out there more needs to be done. One of the things that academics look to is the contact theory, that is, in surveys, people who know people in a given religion or other worldview tend to view them more positively than those who have no contact. So if I know a Muslim, I'm far more likely to view Muslims or positively than somebody who doesn't, it's just Muslim in the abstract. So one of the ways in which we can do this is try and bring people into strategic contact with each other. And I use the word strategic purposefully, if you're not careful, if you put people who are prejudiced against each other, bring them into close proximity, and it's not done strategically, you can end up actually reinforcing the prejudice. So it has to be done careful,

Stephen Bradford Long 36:24
which is what I think Twitter and which is what I think Twitter and Facebook is.

John Morehead 36:29
Yes, yeah. So So you have to bring people together for community causes for meals, that they're bonding together in social contexts, which then permits us to be the ability to rethink and re humanize each other, because there is a dehumanization process that's going through there. So strategic contact is one thing that we need to do. But the downside of the strategic contact is it's very difficult. It's time consuming, and it's expensive. And for for my demographic for evangelicals, they tend to be in parts of the country where there aren't people with them in their towns that they need to be brought into contact with. And so I can't bring evangelicals and Muslims together in a city if there are no Muslims there, right. So bringing them into contact is difficult. So one other possibility that has greater potential is going back to narrative going back to story. One of the things we did with our grant was we produced I think it's about an eight minute video, we went to one of our positive case study churches out in California, where they are doing great things with Muslim immigrants and refugees. And we told their story, what are you doing? Why are you doing it, we have Muslims, they're saying how much they appreciate it, and they feel welcomed and love. And the goal of that video was very strategic. We looked at strategic storytelling and the psychology of that, so that we could produce a video that would tell a different story. For evangelicals, the story doesn't have to be in order to be a good Evangelical, I have to hate Muslims, or hate atheists. The story is, I can be a good Evangelical, have my beliefs in my convictions, and I can love and be hospitable to Muslims, and atheists and others. So what we need to do is put some resources into creative and strategic storytelling that paints a new narrative for people in different religious communities so that they can begin to view those that they may not do favorably in positive ways. Those are just a couple of things. I think that comes out of the data. If we want to facilitate change and deal with the serious challenges we face.

Stephen Bradford Long 38:34
That's fascinating. So bringing people into contact with each other. And that instantly reminds me of Harvey Milk's thing, when in a speech he gave, which was everyone must come out. Because he knew that if everyone came out, then everyone's you know, then then everyone would have a son or a daughter or a friend or a nephew or an uncle or a hairdresser or a boss or whomever who would be gay. And that would alter the entire world. And it has, and I think that's partly why we've seen such incredible change when it comes to acceptance of gay people. It's because a lot of people came out and there was a lot of media representation and that altered everything and then changing the narrative changing the story of of what evangelicalism is. So let me tell you some about my experience of coming out as a as an atheist. I personally prefer to use the term non theist for reasons I'm about to disclose. So, of all of the identifications that I have had, you know, and I've, I, you know, I kind of have a foot and all kinds of in all kinds of different worlds. So you know, I'm a yoga teacher and I'm in the meditation world. I'm a satanist and I'm in the state. Tanach tiempo I am gay and I've done a lot of work for LGBT people. So of all of those things though, the one that has caused me the most grief is atheist. Of of all the ones that have caused me the most grief that just caused me the most rage, it is atheist. And people come out of the fucking woodwork like goddamn cockroach is to, to debate me to fight me on it in a way that that has never been true of my homosexuality, or even my Satanism. When people when I when I bring up people are more disturbed, that I don't believe in God than the fact that I'm a Satanist. People are more disturbed that I don't believe in Satan than that I actually worship Satan. I think people would actually prefer that I worshipped an actual literal Satan. Because that means that I'm an atheist. And Right, right. And it is, it has been one of the most frustrating, frustrating experiences for me, a because I hate debate. And suddenly, every like all of these people, especially on Twitter, just come out of the woodwork to debate me. Or they will send people send me messages complete strangers send me messages on Twitter saying, I hate atheism and materialism. And I'm like, at least buy me a fucking drink first, like God damn. For real, so talk some about the evangelical perception of atheism, because it blows my mind. Because atheism is on the one hand, I get it. On the one hand, I'm like we are a threat to everything you believe our very existence is kind of a threat to everything you believe. But at the same time, we're such a tiny minority, and that evangelicals act as if we are this huge existential threat to America and to the world. It's just not true even among the nuns even among those with that is n o n e s, even among the nuns, those with no religious affiliation. Atheists are rare most people believe in God, even without or some kind of higher power or, or supernatural force. So people like me are incredibly rare. I mean, there were, we're bigger. Were there more of us. But still, even though they're more of us, we're still a minority. And so the fact that evangelicals see us as this threat is just so out of proportion to me. Could you talk to them to that? Yeah.

John Morehead 42:51
I mentioned earlier the Pew survey on how one feels about other groups. And I mentioned that Muslims and atheists around the bottom atheists below the Muslims. So on the one hand, that doesn't surprise me because atheists and I don't think it's just evangelicals. I think if you look at other American groups, they tend to distrust atheists. Absolutely. But on the other hand, it is surprising to me to hear you say that and I know it's it's somewhat anecdotal, it's your experience. It would it would be fascinating to me to conduct survey work amongst evangelicals, and get their reactions in their feelings, thermometer gauges, comparing views of atheists with Satanists, and other groups. Because evangelicals have certain boogeyman certain groups that they it just drives them nuts. And in my experience, what that tends to be in the past, it was Mormons, but I think over time, and with the presidential run of Mitt Romney, that has gotten a little warmer these days, it still is pagans and witches, and you'll see this, especially in October, and Halloween, all the books come out and the websites and all that Satanists are in that mix, and then the stereotypes about you know, what they think Satanists are all about. And in fact, they wouldn't acknowledge that there are many atheists who are saying this. So, in my experience, the boogeyman for evangelicals have been those kinds of religious groups and not so much the atheist. And what you tend to see in evangelicalism is a very healthy cottage industry of apologetic books and programs and so on, and

Stephen Bradford Long 44:26
debating atheists. It drives me crazy. I just I got so fucking triggered hear you say that because I know that a lot of these people who challenge me have those DVDs, and they're trying those talking points on me. Like, I can hear it, I can, I can hear the word because I was a missionary. It's like, I know this shit. So like, I hear the wording or and I'm like, You got that from a book, didn't you? You got that? You got that from a DVD, didn't you?

John Morehead 45:03
Yeah. Well, and because there is that cottage industry out there, my assumption would be is that because they're engaging, even if it's in a very narrow kind of way that that they wouldn't have that strong visceral reaction. But in my experience, what you who you tend to hear from on the extremes are the very extreme. I mean, even in my work as an Evangelical, doing dialogue and multifaith engagement, the way I do, some of the Evangelicals I hear from are not those saying, Hey, man, this is great. We look forward to this new model. It's those who are very much opposed, they then begin to question my ethics and, and everything else along the way. So maybe, I don't know, I'm just trying to come up with another, trying to balance your experience with my experience, maybe what you're hearing from are the extreme elements. Because I think evangelicalism to use to phrase it in the way of this social psychology is doing its mortality salience in regards to atheism, in a way to keep that terror managed effectively. And what you're hearing from are the extremes, which I will point out. One interesting thing if we have any Christian apologist listening and have probably given fits, but what's interesting is you what you see some of the strongest, most visceral, apologetic work in evangelicalism are people who claim that they have this deep understanding, and they're very firm and convicted in their faith. And what's interesting is, in the social psychological literature, those who are who are very weak in their commitments, or those who tend to lash out. So I wonder sometimes, if those who are really deeply involved in this strongly negative, apologetic art is rooted and calm and uncomfortable in their convictions as they would like us to believe that's just an observation.

Stephen Bradford Long 46:48
I think that's I think that's true. And just anecdotally, I see that people really lash out at me, and it is predominantly over my atheism. Also, interestingly, lately, it has mostly been there. There have been some evangelicals lately doing that. But honestly, mostly it is progressive Christians who do it. And I, and I think that fact is very, very interesting to me, because they I think, I think a lot of progressive Christians really struggle with their faith. And in because they're, and I think that their conception of God is, and I don't mean this in a derogatory sense at all, I think it's more fuzzy, I think it's more on a spectrum of just kind of day to day, sometimes it's more symbolic, the next day, it might be more literal. And I think that that sense of instinct, you know, I think that that's true of everyone. But I think that they're more conscious of it. And I think and this is just my personal experience, I think they're more conscious of it. And I think that that creates a bit of instability for them. I think that when they come across, when people come across an atheist that they can't just dismiss as an asshole who has zero understanding of Christian history, like Richard Dawkins, I think, you know, Richard Dawkins did a lot for the world, but he's also just a complete bloviating asshole who does not understand Christian theology. And he drives me nuts. Because of that. I think he did a lot of good for a lot of people. But I also think he did a lot of damage because I think he really does not, can he read? Anyway, that's a whole other rant, which I will not go down right now. For people who are interested in that, listen to my interview with Paul Walker, who is an astrophysicist and a pastor and we have a conversation about the new atheists. But that aside, but I think for a lot of progressive Christians, when they encounter someone that they just can't dismiss as an asshole atheist, who doesn't, who doesn't have an appreciation of the richness of Christian theology and history and liturgy, I think they find that deeply threatening, at least that's my own personal anecdotal experience. I also think that is very, yeah, go on.

John Morehead 49:05
I think you've stumbled onto something in which we can agree I don't again, I don't mind people having strong disagreements with me as a Christian and trying absolutely me of whatever they will at least understand what I'm about and what what the background of my tradition I should do the same thing with you before I disagree with a Muslim. I better really understand what Islam is about and not interact with a stereotype and a caricature Exactly. I'm with you.

Stephen Bradford Long 49:28
Or ask like I'm, I'm like, please ask and you know, so much of what I do is not I'm not interested in trying to convert people to what I believe that that isn't a thing for me. I am very interested, though, in learning to survive together as you know, on this rock as we hurtle through space and try not to just completely burn ourselves alive. So you know, I'm, I have I'm very invested in people just asking me and I don't care if they walk way completely disagreeing with me, I would rather people ask me what I believe so that they have a clearer picture of what it means to grow up gay or what it means to be a Satanic Temple Satanist, or what it means to be a yoga teacher and this particular school that I teach or whatever, on and on and on, I would rather people ask. So we're already kind of coming to the end of our conversation, this is flown by talk some about let me look at my notes here. This is a whole other issue, which I probably should have brought up earlier in the conversation, because it's so massive. What are your thoughts on the interaction between evangelicals and abortion and homosexuality? Because those those two things seem to be catalysts for a lot of rage and a lot of anger? And division? How does that interact with all this?

John Morehead 50:59
Yeah, I think similar social psychological dynamics are involved, I think people are finding those issues, threatening to their worldview, to their religious beliefs, and so on. And they're, they're interacting defensively and instead of persuading others, or making the case worse, I will say that I don't work in those areas too much. And trying to apply my work, I will say I do some work as an adjunct as Multnomah in Portland. And there is an individual there on faculty, Brad Harper, who has a son who is gay, and they wrote a book together where they dialogue about it, and they're trying to forge a new way that, you know, we didn't see this coming. But you know, we're still father and son, we love each other. Let's talk about it. But others listen to our conversation so we can model a better way forward. So there are some of us evangelicals, I would implore your audience I know many of them may have had bad experiences with Evangelicals, thick gray holes, I get it. I'm in the tribe. I'm trying to work with my fellow tribes, people to help them understand be a little more self critical, self aware, to understand the psychological dynamics that are there and to work with them to change their understanding and their narrative to change their psychology. So we can develop more more helpful and positive theologies to relate to people that we just happen to disagree with. But we have to share as you say, this rock hurtling through space with so I don't know if I'm optimistic or not the way things are today, but I'm gonna keep plugging away.

Stephen Bradford Long 52:29
One, one last thing that I would like to ask before we wrap this up. Do you have any data on the interaction between evangelicals and climate change?

52:38
You mean, in terms of trying to facilitate changes of opinions on that or?

Stephen Bradford Long 52:42
Yeah, chant? Yeah. What are what are the emotions underlying their response to climate change?

John Morehead 52:50
I just think it's, it's more of a conservative orientation. to downplay that kind of interesting area of research is moral foundations theory, Jonathan Hite. I love Jonathan Hite. Yeah, I can't even do it because they're tapping into conservative moral foundations that causes them to poopoo. That kind of stuff. I did come across one thing in the social psychological literature, then appealing to certain moral foundations for conservatives on climate change, made them more open to entertaining its possibilities as a reality. So again, it's about taking the issues of disagreement and framing them in ways that work through differing psychologies, rather than assuming our own psychological framework and try to say, Just tell the other just see it my way. You know, we've got to work through where they're coming from, if we want to try and persuade others about some of the key challenges of

Stephen Bradford Long 53:41
the day. That's fascinating. And to just go back to one of the things that you were just talking about, this is really an exercise in empathy. And I think that it's important to understand, you know, for for fellow minorities like me, who feel deeply threatened by evangelicalism, I understand that it might be too difficult or too hard, too traumatizing due to past experiences, to try to empathize or understand the evangelical mindset right now for you. And if that's the case, then the thing you need to do is to take care of yourself, get some really good therapy, go to your communities, go to a you know, go deep into the gay community or into the pagan community and just feel find some healing there. But for those of us who are able to, I really think it's important that we experience you know, that we practice this empathy so that we can understand what's motivating these really, really, really toxic behaviors. This for me is totally in line with the first tenet of the Satanic Temple which is one should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason and evangelicals are part of that. All creatures category. And so we have to act with compassion and empathy towards evangelicals even along with denouncing and and work and struggling against some of their more toxic behaviors. All right, is there anything? Are there any final thoughts that you want to add before we wrap up?

John Morehead 55:21
No, I think I gave a good statement and imploring your audience and you have complimented that I just appreciate the opportunity. I will mention we do have a book coming out later this year through through Pickwick dealing with the neglect of emotions in multifaith engagement, and my chapter goes through this research and we've got another chapter by it was written by several individuals at Baylor, who have social psychological and neuroscience background this is an interdisciplinary book broadly Christian that says, Look, here are different areas dealing with emotions related to multifaith relationships, and we're missing the boat we got to do better so that'll be coming out later this year.

Stephen Bradford Long 56:02
Fantastic. I can't wait I will definitely read that. And if you want to come back on to talk about it. Please let me know whenever it comes out that sounds great. Awesome. Well cool. All right. Well, that is it for this show. As always, the music is by eleventy seven and the jelly rocks you can find their music on iTunes and Spotify eleventy seven by the way has a new album out it's called Basic glitches I will be playing a song at the very end of this show so be sure to listen for that the artwork is by Rama Krishna Das this show is edited written and produced by me Steven Bradford long and it is a production of rock candy recordings and as always thanks for listening

56:50
it comes to labels seven promise broke find myself too scared to save can't shake this dream extra to the game Ken starr said good senses get chips whisper again, guys, thanks James.

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-Werewolf trials6hcz9

2022-10-11T08:06:16Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

Werewolf_trials6hcz9
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
werewolf, people, moral panics, cannibalism, wolf, trials, called, fascinating, human, true, accusations, absolutely, world, witch trials, real, person, devil, book, witches, accused
SPEAKERS
Liza Kurtz, Stephen Bradford Long

00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast. Hey, I'm Andrew. And I'm John. Our show magnified pod is the only podcast that discusses culture, religion, politics, and deep dives into the discographies of the bands that shaped a generation of 90s youth group kids, check out magnified pod on the rock candy Podcast Network and wherever you get your podcasts.

Stephen Bradford Long 00:34
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com. All right, well, we have a really fun episode for this week, we're talking about werewolves and moral panics and history three of my very favorite things. But before we get to that, I do have to thank my patrons. So I believe in bringing these conversations to the world for free. I think that we need long form, in depth conversations online now more than ever. So I am delighted to bring these conversations to all of you for free. But I need help to do that. Because it is an incredible amount of work from booking to recording to editing, then finally posting and marketing. It's a lot of work, and I am a one man show. So in order to make that possible and sustainable, I do need your help. So for this week, I have to thank Sam Megan and ash mania for becoming patrons. Thank you so much. You're my personal lords and saviors. And I truly could not do this without you. And anyone who is listening to this who might be interested in joining their number, please go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long, or just use the link in the shownotes you will get extra content. My house of heretics podcast with Timothy with Timothy McPherson, former minister turned heretic from the Salvation Army and we talk about all kinds of interesting things going on in the world religion, politics, various controversies online bullshit, what have you. If that interests you then do please become a member on Patreon? There are other ways to support the show. However, I understand that we're all still struggling from the COVID pandemic, the economy is on fire. And I really need you to take care of yourself first and foremost. So if you're unable to support me financially, I completely understand the best way to support this show is to just listen to it, enjoy it, subscribe to it wherever you listen, and share it with your friends. Also, this show is sponsored by the satanic temple.tv. The Satanic Temple has an incredibly interesting and creative community. And there's all kinds of fascinating stuff on tst. TV, live streams, talk shows or rituals, lectures, all kinds of fascinating stuff. And if you're into new religious movements, and weird occult stuff, then TST TV is for you. And you can get one month free by using my promo code, sacred tension all caps, no space at checkout. All right. Well, with all of that out of the way. I'm delighted to welcome Zee Kay [real name: Liza Kurtz] to the show. Hi, how are you?

Liza Kurtz 03:38
I'm great. Steven, thanks for having me.

03:40
So we were both presenters at the I forget when this was was that was this in 2020 or 2021. Like all the years are blurring together now.

Liza Kurtz 03:52
Oh, one long pandemic year, but I think it was the end of 2020.

03:57
That sounds right. Yeah. So we were in the we were both presenters at the World Congress on moral panics put on by gray faction, which is a campaign of the Satanic Temple. And you gave this just amazingly fascinating lecture about the werewolf trials, which is like a much lesser known event in history of like analogue or comparable to the witch trials. But we all talk about the witch trials we all know about the witch trials is like embedded in our collective memory. But no one knows about the werewolf trials. And so before we get into this, tell us some about who you are and what you do and your area of study.

Liza Kurtz 04:45
Sure. So as you already mentioned, I'm see I am a member of counsel for the Satanic Temple, Arizona, and I am I want to make sure I frame this conversation by saying I'm not a historian by trade. I'm actually a sociologist by Academic Training undergraduate students. And so I'm coming at this really from the perspective of someone who is interested in moral panics as a sociologist, and on a personal level as a Satanist because it affects us all so profoundly, and also just a person who is a werewolf enthusiast. Not say that I'm welcome theist as much as some people who maybe dress up in first suits and go to conventions about it. But I do think that werewolves have gotten short cultural shrift, as particularly in the face of that much more famous monster the vampire. But to me wearables represent all these incredibly interesting sociological and societal and psychological things. They're really they're grappling with many questions of nature versus nurture, and what it means to be human versus animal and where we fit in the evolutionary scale. And as Anton LaVey once famously said, there's a beast and man that must be exercised, not exorcised. And I think werewolves are a perfect encapsulation of that tension between how we feel about ourselves as higher order beings versus the reality of living as animals.

Stephen Bradford Long 06:12
I mostly just think they're super hot. I just, I love werewolves ever. So okay, so actually funny story ever since that, ever since I like came out in high school, I just have had this massive, massive crush on werewolves, I just think that they're irresistibly hot. So there's also that

Liza Kurtz 06:31
there is also that a genre of romance fiction for you after this call? I can't, if you will, of Werewolf romance fiction, I think is appealing for all the same sociological questions, right? I mean, what's sexier than someone really giving in to animal instinct?

Stephen Bradford Long 06:50
Absolutely. Yeah, let's, let's definitely talk about that and share notes about how hot werewolves are. So let's back up some and define a moral panic. Because you know, those of us in TST, and those of us who are Satanists are very familiar with what a moral panic is, but a lot of people listening to us might not be familiar. So define what a moral panic is. Sure. So

Liza Kurtz 07:19
I will give a definition. But I sort of loosely based on my reading on this topic, although I'm certainly not a professional scholar of new religions, who are most of the people who deal with moral panics as scholars. But moral panics, the essential core of a moral panic, I would say, is really a subversion of concerns about something else into the form of a psychological frenzy of fear about something that has no factual evidence, but is rooted deeply in a particular belief system. And that's really abstract. So maybe an example, will, will give some some context. So we had a moral panic over Satanism in the 80s, and 90s. And there's all kinds of reasons that that happened. But some of them were that this fear of cultural and sociological phenomenons that were happening at the large scale, like women working outside the home for the first time, or the push of feminists to have the idea that childhood sexual abuse was much more common than anyone realized, those things became impossible to grapple with on this sort of cultural psychological scale for everyone. And so the inability to grapple with those things got put into the context of abutting evangelical Christian movement, and it became pushed down below the surface into this panic around there are Satanists around every corner who are harming our children. And so that's what I mean, when I say it's a concern at a large cultural social level that becomes sublimated into something else that doesn't have factual evidence.

Stephen Bradford Long 09:03
Yeah. And I feel like we're living in an age that's particularly ripe for moral panics because of things like Twitter and Facebook that just, you know, feed on, algorithmically feed on human insecurities. So it's important to understand this stuff right now, in the our current digital age. So give us kind of a brief history of what happened with the werewolf trials. How did this begin? And what time period was it and what happened? Sure. So

Liza Kurtz 09:39
it's hard to talk about the werewolf trials without talking about the witch trials, which were probably all more familiar with that period in early modern history. From the mid 1500s, sorry, the mid 1400s to about 1650 ish, depending on where you were, where many, many people were persecuted as witches under or the authority of the Church, and in the guise of various anti religious practices like that classic going into the woods into a Sabbat, the devil signing your name in the book, having intercourse with the devil, I think we're all sort of familiar with that context. The werewolf trials were a subset of those trials were something very unique happened. And they didn't happen everywhere it was, it was particular regions of certain countries, usually rural areas, although not exclusively, you would have witch trials that followed the same pattern largely. But instead of people being accused of being sorcerers are witches are working curses on their neighbors, they were accused of being werewolves. And what's more interesting to me about, or what sets apart the werewolf trials is they were often connected to very specific physical events. So there's records of things like murders, and there's records of things like shepherdess is being found, you know, gored to death in the woods and these horrible, horrible murder scenes, that kind of thing. And so unlike the witch trials, where you have this sort of very tenuous connection between cause and effect, in the sense that like, it could be something like, Oh, my cattle are not getting milk anymore. And I think it's because my neighbor cursed me. And my neighbor is a witch, which is sort of a tenuous connection. There's this very physical reality of someone turned up dead or multiple someone's or children were going missing, and then figuring out the explanation became about werewolves.

Stephen Bradford Long 11:33
So that's really interesting to me, because from your lecture, it sounded like the majority of people accused of being werewolves were men. Whereas the majority of people accused of being witches were, of course, women. And and I wonder if that division between, you know, accusations of witchcraft were far more ephemeral, whereas accusations of against werewolves were far more involved far more like carnal and bloody events. And I wonder if that? I don't know. I, I wonder if there's a gender divide there in terms of those accusations like, like in terms of the types of things that men and women would be accused of? Does that make sense? Am I making any sense about that?

Liza Kurtz 12:29
Absolutely. That gender division of between how we think about how women violate social orders, and how many?

Stephen Bradford Long 12:35
Exactly exactly like men, men being more, there being greater physicality, and I guess you could say strength and bodily leanness to men's crimes, and then something far more, I guess, unfalsifiable. With women's crimes? I don't know. Does that make sense?

Liza Kurtz 12:57
It does. I want to be careful here to say that the White Wolf trials have not received a tremendous amount of scholarship. So it's hard to talk about them very definitively. From the records we do have, it does appear that men and women were accused of lycanthropy, and approximately the same numbers, but you're not wrong in the sense that what they were accused of was difference. So women were more likely to be seen as being part of a werewolf pack, who was subordinate to a usually a male leader. And they were often accused of crimes like sexual promiscuity, whereas men were assumed to be the ones who you are going out and eating children, you are performing familial cannibalism, you're doing all these very bloody, very raw, very sort of physically powerful things. So you've hit the nail on the head, they're just not quite at the right angle. It was about equal numbers of men and women. But what they were accused of was very gendered. And I should be clear, too, that there weren't that many werewolf trials that we know of, which kind of also makes them interesting. They were probably in the hundreds, not the 1000s, as opposed to, you know, 10s of 1000s of witchcraft trials over the period. And that's really interesting, because that tells us there's something unique happening with these particular trials that they only crop up every so often, they're not universal in the same way.

Stephen Bradford Long 14:17
What do you think that unique element is in the werewolf incidences?

Liza Kurtz 14:26
Yeah, this is a really interesting question. I think some of it is rooted in geography. I think some of it is landscape. So we know from an amazing review done by a scholarly lanell and his team that really went back and scoured a lot of historical data about wolf attacks in Europe, we know that if you lived in a rural area, wolf attacks were a real thing. And that's kind of hard to think about now.

Stephen Bradford Long 14:53
I only know that because I played the Witcher three on PlayStation four and so I know all about wolf TAC wolf attacks. It's in rural areas, but that's the extent of my knowledge. Yeah, it's

Liza Kurtz 15:03
like Skyrim, right? Absolutely. The first thing I do in any Skyrim game is get the perk that lets you call them animals. So I do not have to kill wolves. That is like my number one priority when I start a new character. But yeah, it's it's partially areas that have real contact with wolves. Witchcraft can be anywhere, but you're not going to find accusations of lycanthropy in a city context as much because it simply isn't present in the mind as a fear in the same way. Part of it is also and this is what I think is maybe the most fascinating thing of all about the wolf trials, where they turn up is related to continuing folk traditions around wolf magic. And I'll backtrack a little back a bit here and say, I think we're probably all familiar if you if you are interested in the witch trials at all. There's multiple hypotheses around how the actual practice of witchcraft if it existed at the time related to what church authorities reported about it. So there's the the Margaret Murray hypothesis, it's been largely discredited that the church was finding these very direct evidence of familial practices that had survived Christianization. And that there were these sorceress witch families who were still practicing their pre Christian tradition, that there's not especially good evidence for that that was very popular in the 70s. And it's the 80s partially as a way to justify the existence of Wicca and other Neo pagan religious movements. That has since pretty much been discarded as a credible theory. Then you have the author of Europe's inner demons. I don't remember his name offhand. He propagates this idea of it. There was no witchcraft actually being practice. These were just bog standard people who happen to get in the way of church authorities, and then Church authorities exercised on them. This sort of Freudian panic around Oh, witches walk among us, the devil is real. Do you have that author? You? I

Stephen Bradford Long 17:09
do? I just looked him up Norman Cohn?

Liza Kurtz 17:12
Thank you. Yes, that's the current hypothesis, which is very much connected to psychological fears, expressing themselves on these, these innocent people who had nothing to do with it, it was really an externalization of what church authorities feared. And then you have a hypothesis that somewhere in the middle that many scholars think is probably true. And it's sort of a balance of the two, it's saying that probably there were some fragmentary survival of folk magic pre Christian practices that people used, or that became syncretized into Christianity, and that those people who were notorious for doing that were probably more likely to be persecuted as witches due to the connotations of that kind of practice. But that that doesn't constitute a living tradition stretching back into the unbroken time back to see the druids or the original pagans or anything like that. All of that is a little bit speculation, because our sources outside of the trial, transcripts themselves are so spotty. What makes the world trials so interesting is, it's easier to make a direct connection, the places they cropped up, had a tradition of what was called particularly in Anglo Saxon and dramatic areas, Wolf charming. And that was the idea that there were certain people who had developed this relationship with the natural world and new ways to keep you safe from walks. And it wasn't necessarily connected to Christian tradition. The speculation is that it predates that by quite a bit. And so these, these charm workers were people would come to them, if you were a shepherd, you would go get your wolf charm, and that they had special powers connecting to wolves. And that is where the world files show up. And so it's this really interesting connection between a an established and documented pre Christian tradition of wolf charming, making that twist and transfer being transformed by church authorities into this idea of somebody has an unnatural relationship with wolves. And something's going on there.

Stephen Bradford Long 19:17
Yeah, that's fascinating. And, you know, this is just a speculation of mine. I wonder, I've wondered whether because the lore of the werewolf goes back eons I mean, it's very, very ancient, and I feel like

Liza Kurtz 19:37
so for Yeah, say that one more time. Ancient Greece and before

Stephen Bradford Long 19:41
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, I feel like every culture has kind of this archetypal creature of some kind, that is, that transforms into something animalistic that that that trespass is the boundary between In human and animal and and does terrible damage to other human beings in some way. And this might just be because I'm a huge True Crime fan. But I wonder if part of the root of that is occasionally, every so often a person being born into one of these ancient cultures, who is essentially a serial killer. And you know, we have our own lore today about people like Jeffrey Dahmer and Ed geen and Ted Bundy and all of these people. But I can totally see how kind of in a pre modern society that is imbued with the supernatural how the only explanation for someone as horrific as like an Albert Fish or a Ted Bundy is a myth. And that maybe there's, you know, and so maybe in the deep past, somewhere there, there was a monster, there was a human monster, who became the prototype for these myths. Four, what do you think of that? Do you is that all four? I don't know. That's something that I keep thinking about.

Liza Kurtz 21:20
No, I think that that Well, I mean, I think it's scientifically problematic in the sense that that's basically not ever provable, right?

Stephen Bradford Long 21:28
But it is unfalsifiable. Yeah, for sure.

Liza Kurtz 21:31
But it intuitively makes a lot of sense. It's not like serial killers were made in the 80s. One of the famous cases actually of a serial killer, who was connected to werewolf flora is Gilda ray in France, who was a famous child serial killer, who became sort of a bogeyman, he was so terrible. And it doesn't make sense that if you have no other explanation, you're going to put it in the context of what's around you. So think about being in a small village in the dark woods of France in the 1500s. You're probably almost unreachable by Paris and the government at some point, depending on where you are, depending on whether, depending on the road system, things like that. And you're in a natural environment where there are these large predators who have been known to prey on humans under the right circumstances. In that sense, you're probably you're very tightly socially connected with everyone else in your community, right for survival. And so a violation of that norm through something like serial killing or a terrible murder. That's an even stronger violation than it is today, in many ways, because you are dependent on each other for survival. And what's the only thing that you have any experience with that would do that? Well, it's probably a wolf. And so yes, I think there's a very intuitive psychological connection between the idea of sort of an ultra violet person who violates this extremely important social bonds that everyone relies on for survival and the biggest predator you're likely to meet in those dark woods. There's also a really interesting connection with true crime in the sense that a little later on one of the things that drives the interest in werewolves, particularly the beast of Jebel doll, which is later in the 1750s in France, I believe, is that became a huge story, because it was just around the time that the first newspapers were starting to publish what they call and I will slaughter the French on this, I'm sorry. fete de ver, which was diverse tales, it was a beginning of what we would think of as sort of the scandal sheets, or the true climb tabloids. And so the beast of J with all those a tremendous amount of its existence, and its storytelling, to this sudden burgeoning interest in true crime that came with the ability of people to read the newspaper.

Stephen Bradford Long 24:03
That's fascinating. Yeah. And tell us if you might not have this off the top of your head. But is there a particular case that you find most interesting, like, is there a particular trial case of a werewolf, as well of somebody accused of being a werewolf that you find most interesting? Or illuminating? And if so, what what's the story of that case?

Liza Kurtz 24:31
Yeah, so I want to make sure I get these dates, right. But my favorite and most interesting case, and one of the most favorite, most famous is of a man in Germany named Peter stump, or stupid or stump. It's one of those things where you wrote down the name however, you've heard it in the record set, therefore, it's a little different. And he was accused of Werewolf three and witchcraft and cannibalism sort of a trick I added a bad thing. He was known as the werewolf of bed Berg. And he was found guilty. And he was executed by breaking on the Catherine Wheel, which is probably one of the most horrible ways to die imaginable.

Stephen Bradford Long 25:13
Tell us what that is. Tell us what?

Liza Kurtz 25:16
Sure. So take a wagon wheel, or a large book a

Stephen Bradford Long 25:20
content content warning everyone by the way. Okay, carry on.

Liza Kurtz 25:24
Yes, this is the last podcasts on the left would say Goldstar. territory?

Stephen Bradford Long 25:28
Yes, absolutely.

Liza Kurtz 25:31
So take a wagon wheel or another large wheel and think of threading a shoelace to the spokes. But you're going to do that with the person that you are torturing lips. So that's already extremely uncomfortable, I might just locate them. And now you're going to take a hammer, and you're going to hit every part that's on top of the wheel. So it's a way of polarizing that person's bones when they're already in a position of extreme discomfort and dislocation. And at that point, by the time you're done, I can't imagine that decapitation is not something of a mercy.

Stephen Bradford Long 26:07
Yeah, fun. So yeah, so a truly horrific way to die. And so what what happened to him? Well, where does this story go?

Liza Kurtz 26:20
Sure. So this is bedbug Germany, probably around 1530. He was considered to be aware, Wolf, because of this classic thing that you I mean, you're it's gonna ring true for fairy tales. They were hunting a wolf in the woods that was supposed to have killed many people in the village. And it's left Paul was injured, right? You know where this is going. And when they came back to the village, Peter stump had a matching wound in his left hand. And that was the proof that they he was the werewolf. And what's fascinating about this is he so he was stretched on the rack before he was broken on the wheel. This guy did not have a good end to his life. But being stretched on the rack, of course, you will say anything. It's torture. So he confessed to having practiced black magic since he was 12. He confessed to being part of a family of werewolves. He claimed the devil had given him a magic belt or a girl that when he put on he could transform into a wolf that is a very common narrative. You see across the the werewolf trials, that he ate children and sheep and lambs and goats, and men and women like everything imaginable. I think he specifically confessed to eating 14 children. And there's a great quote from the trials that he says he ate their hearts, panting, hot and raw. And he described them as dainty morsels. One of the kids was his own son. He was also accused of having an incestuous relationship with his daughter, which is sort of piling taboo on taboo breaking here. And what's so fascinating about Peter stump is not necessarily that his trial was unusual for the world trials, it kind of takes the form of most other trials. One is that it's so well documented, which is always great to have. And the other is, if you look on Wikipedia, Peter stump is listed as a German serial killer, based on no evidence whatsoever than his trial transcript under torture. And I think that's fascinating that the echoes of that trial are still being presented as facts today.

Stephen Bradford Long 28:27
That is fascinating. And oh, I know, he just had a question, where did it go? Hold on, it was right there. It was right at the tip of my tongue. And it's gone. It happened,

Liza Kurtz 28:43
and say something else that I think probably should be contextualized in this conversation, which is not everyone thought werewolves were real. At this time. I dislike the history speaking about history as though everyone thought the same thing. Of course, humans were as diverse in their thinking as they are now they were smart as they are now. They just weren't operating with the same level of information. And so you actually get somewhere with trials, you have physicians giving testimony in both directions. You have physicians saying, Yes, this person to wear is a werewolf, but you also have physicians saying, No, this person thinks they're a werewolf and they're what we would now call mentally ill. And so physicians would turn up and say, This person has melancholia, which we would understand is like crippling depression, and other types of mental illness. They think they're a werewolf. They're laboring under this delusion, they're really not. And what's even more fascinating is that, in some ways, the idea of werewolves being prosecuted by the church goes against directly against a strain of Christian thought, who thought it was heresy that anyone or anything that any power other than God could transform human flesh. And so even within the church, you have this tension between werewolves are real and of the devil. And only God has the power to do that. And the mere idea of believing and werewolves is in a certain way heretical.

Stephen Bradford Long 30:06
That's fascinating. It sounds like what Joseph Laycock, in a few interviews I've done with him, called What was it? Matisse, medical materialism, which, which he described as this idea of, at least, I mean, this will probably be a total bastardization of what he said, everyone should just go back and listen to my interview with him about demon possession. I did that, I think three years ago, and it's, he's still one of my favorite guests. But he talks about how we have this assumption that people in the past were just stupid people, people in the medieval period or whatever, they were just all dupes. They were just all willing to believe stupid shit for stupid reasons. And that there was a, but also that there is a unanimous stupidity. And that's just not true. It's a far more like a complex picture. And they are the they were operating with the exact same operating systems and brains that we have today, like it is the exact same brain. And we have the exact same cognitive glitches that they did back then.

Liza Kurtz 31:24
Absolutely. I think that's spot on. And, I mean, consider not to bring up a touchy topic and what is supposed to be a fun episode. But I mean, consider how much access to scientific information and resources and education we have now, and we can't even convince everyone that COVID vaccines are safe in the modern world.

Stephen Bradford Long 31:44
Right, exactly. Exactly. This, this stuff is ancient, like, like human stupidity is ancient and AI,

Liza Kurtz 31:51
why wouldn't we assume the same type of diversity of thought in the past?

Stephen Bradford Long 31:56
Absolutely. Yeah, that's, that's true. And you know, and then human nature just collides with new innovations, like the internet, or the printing press, or whatever. And, but it just, but it's, it never changes, it's just always the same. It it just, you know, enters a new technological context. And we have to, like, deal with it in new ways. But it's ultimately just the exact same human nature that we've been dealing with the entire time, and just listening to you talk, like, you know, this person being put on the wheel after being put on the rack and then being decapitated, because he had a wounded Paul, a wounded hand. It was just like, Oh, thank God for, you know, my immediate thought was, thank God for rationality, thank God for, you know, standards of critical thinking. And that's true, but also that initial thought, Is there were there were people back then trying to think critically about this stuff? There? Were there there were people trying to critically examine this subject.

Liza Kurtz 33:05
Yeah. And also, I think it's probably a misnomer to say it was only because his hand was wounded. I mean, think about when we make accusations of each other. And I think anyone who's in a small community, like Satanism, or any any subculture that has a tight knit community is familiar with this. If you find someone who is not to your taste, or doesn't work the way you do, or you feel as immoral, and you feel should be removed from that community. If you are presenting a public case, the reason you give is probably not the only reason. So when we know that stuff, we don't know anything more. We don't it's not like the Salem witch trials where there's enough, sort of, there's enough of a paper trail to be able to speculate. We do know he was a wealthy farmer. We know that he may have been a widower who remarried, we know that he may have had an A son of unknown age and potentially an inappropriate relationship with a stepdaughter, like there are so many potential reasons why he mended may have ended up as the pariah of this community. And he had a wound on his left hand after we heard a wolf is probably only one and probably only the surface level, even if that wasn't conscious on their part.

Stephen Bradford Long 34:24
Yeah, so so it's a post hoc rationalization, it would be like a post hoc rationalization of it's like here, here are all of these kind of intuitive reasons for why we dislike him and think he might be a werewolf. And then there's the post hoc rationalization that comes along of Oh, his, his hand is wounded, or something like that. Is that basically what you're saying?

Liza Kurtz 34:48
Absolutely. And it could have also been a strategic move to get the authorities involved. It could have been you really was a monster that he was a murderer that everyone in the village knew it that they didn't have proof and that you Using the forum and the mythology of the werewolf was the fastest and most efficient way to get someone who could do anything about this person involved in the trial. I mean, I have no evidence for that it's pure speculation, but people were not stupid. And it certainly could is a lever that could have been moved to bring the church into a bad situation.

Stephen Bradford Long 35:21
So your you approach this as a sociologist, which makes me wonder if you find this topic fascinating because of what it might say about our current society, or human nature right now. If that's true, what What draws you to the subject? And what what makes you? I don't know, in what way? Are the werewolf trials kind of still applicable or like a lesson for our current situation as human beings? Does that make sense?

Liza Kurtz 35:59
Absolutely, yeah. I think there's some some generality, or some general comparisons that can be drawn in terms of the particular interest that people have in bringing individuals to justice, whether or not there's a lot of evidence, right. So there's the the very broad scale comparison of maintaining the social order is almost always more important than whether or not any one individual is innocent or guilty of a particular thing. And I'm not advocating opposition, I'm just saying that's how societies tend to work. And so you can certainly draw the direct connection there of it was very important for these societies, to ensure that with who they perceived as werewolves were brought to justice, partially to ensure the reification of the church as authority and the realistic existence of the devil. Belief in the devil is like a power in the world, that kind of thing. But I think also, it's just a cautionary tale maybe around how we think about taboo breaking, and what we assumed taboo breaking to be. And maybe the best example I can give for this directly, or the best line I can draw is sort of how we think of other cultures. And so when we think about animalistic behavior, and what looks like animalistic behavior to us, I think the immediate knee jerk reaction is animalistic behavior is anything we deem uncivilized. And what civilized means and who gets to define that. And whether or not civilized is according to your culture, or according to my culture. All of those things have really direct connections to the idea of the werewolf as someone who breaks with human society by acting like an animal. I also think that the werewolf maybe holds some some lessons for us. And this is really interesting. There's there's a few cases where werewolves were actually presented as positive in the werewolf trials. There is in fact, a man who was accused of being a werewolf. And he said, Well, okay, fine. Yes, I'm a werewolf. But the thing you don't know is that every year in the fall, the devil and his minions come to steal the villages, grain stores, and we would all starve. But I'm a werewolf, and I take on my wolf form, and I chased the devil away, so the village can prosper. And he completely flipped the script. He said, It's true. And your entire cosmology is true. But think about it from this angle. And that was a really interesting way of using that animalistic, taboo breaking idea in service to his community. And so I think sometimes it would benefit all of us to think about what kind of civilized behavior am I doing that I don't need to be doing? What kind of uncivilized behavior can I break the mold with, but that is in service to the community?

Stephen Bradford Long 39:09
I think Joseph Laycock used that story and Speak of the devil to kind of explore the role of modern Satanism of, you know, I think he described it as the underworld, you know, asserting itself into the overworld. And it's like, you know, suddenly the underworld is, you know, a being from the underworld is good. My brain is all foggy this morning. So I'm probably getting all of that wrong, but but the idea of subversion and, and, you know, taking on something that has historically been seen as evil and, and flipping the narrative on its head and using it in the service of good and what you were just saying about taboo and and being animalistic, really having to do with culture. I just finished a book by Bill Schut called cannibalism, a perfectly natural history. And there's a whole section of that book and he's he's a zoologist. So he really delves into cannibalism in the context of different species. And then he explores it culturally for humans. And he says that there's very, very little evidence of the cannibalism that was claimed in the new world, when the colonists came and started colonizing the New World and invading and massacring, and just doing all of the horrific, horrific, horrific things in the new world, and that the accusation of cannibalism was a way of solidifying indigenous peoples in humanity, in the mind of Europe, and in the mind of the old world, right. And that it was a very, very effective tool to solidify their in humanity. And it sounds like this rhymes with that, that that in a different way, you know, not necessarily against indigenous people, but there but it is a a, a weapon of dehumanization of to ensure that someone is not seen as human. And I feel like we see similar we've seen similar things through history, with, you know, against gay people, against trans people of, of, against black people, against Jewish people, any minority of, of, you know, lobbing accusations against minorities, to kind of solidify in the mind of the majority, that they are inhuman and therefore not deserving of human respect. And so the I see this, what you were just saying is, is just another like ancient trope of human nature where we demonize we we attribute inhumanity to people through various myths or through various accusations or whatever so that then we don't have to treat them as human.

Liza Kurtz 42:27
Absolutely. And I think cannibalism is a huge is a perfect one to hit on for that because it's such a huge taboo and it's such a part of almost every every moral panic really, if you think about it is absolutely wild. The Witch Trials themselves there were accusations that like unlike the were will trials, that which is raping children hold but there was certainly the accusation that they were using infant blood in their rights. And that goes all the way back to Christians accusing other early Christians they did like of child sacrifice and anti Jewish panics and all of that. cannibalism in particular, I mean, it's a dream to curl now, right? Exactly. In a panic, there's, there's something about cannibalism and the use of the human body that is particularly used to other people. What is fascinating to me about the new world accusations of cannibalism is it's my understanding from friends who are Southwestern archaeologist, that the evidence is very up in the air, whether or not there was cannibalism or not. But the other thing is, if you're going to accept the evidence that there was cannibalism in the new world, there's about an equal base of evidence that there was cannibalism regularly in Europe in prehistoric times. And so it's like, you can't accept one and discard the other either everybody was cannibalizing or nobody.

Stephen Bradford Long 43:50
Absolutely. So fast forward to the modern day. We still have an infatuation with werewolves, I, for example, still find them ravishingly hot. And what is that? What talk some about why. And I know that this is probably too broad a question to be useful. What is it about werewolves that we find fascinating and kind of irresistible?

Liza Kurtz 44:24
I think a huge part of it is in werewolves, we have a stripping away of everything that is unnecessary, and in many ways, everything that is dangerous except the physical. My human lover might lie to me about how much he likes me. He might lie to me about why he's with me. She might tell me I look great in those pants when I really don't write a werewolf is not capable of that when they are in wolf form or when that beast form there is it is a very you direct and very trustable like to get to take it to the logical, like romance novel extreme if you are chosen as a werewolf mate, you know, there's nothing else going on there. There's no ulterior motive, there's nothing. It's just that base level like, this is my person in the sexual and romantic sense. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 45:21
there's a carnal sincerity about it.

Liza Kurtz 45:23
Exactly. And then the same way I think sometimes. And this is maybe a messed up thing to say. But for modern people dealing with modern dangers, there's almost a restfulness in the sense of like, the only thing this werewolf can do to hurt me is physical. Right? That's a very straightforward danger. It obviously isn't a danger that mixes in a lot of adrenaline, which can be very sexy, right? That fear, death, sex response getting all mixed up together. But also, you're not like, you're not in a state where you're worried that this werewolf is going to hurt me by not paying the bills next month. Right? It's purely like if I come out of this alive, I'm fine. And I think there's something very, very appealing about the simplicity of that and very appealing about the carnality of that. And also, then being in that state gives you as a hypothetical partner as the reader or the stand in to be the same way it gives you permission to be exactly the same way. By having the werewolf unleash the beast within so to speak, it gives us permission to put our humanity aside to

Stephen Bradford Long 46:33
Yeah, and by humanity, we don't actually mean our fundamental humanity, but those like superfluous and unnecessary, civilizing impulses that restrain us that, you know, the super ego, for lack of a better word that the societal norms, and I don't know, it's, this is all reminding me I haven't thought about this in years, Jesus Christ. This is like the first time I'm thinking about this, like when I was in high school, and, you know, I was in a Christian called super conservative Christian high school. And I was in the closet and I was just beginning to grapple with my orientation. I started writing this cringy as fuck High School Story, you know about the a teenager who discovers he's a werewolf, of course, like the most the most cringy, like high school thing you can imagine. And, but what it really was, it was, it was a metaphor for my own orientation. And discovering that I was a werewolf discovering that there was something not human about me, I interpreted it at that time as something not human, something deeply animalistic, and an anti human that was deeply frightening. And it's, I think that's one of the reasons why I am drawn to the werewolf myth, because I think we all have something like that inside of us, be it a fetish, or be it a a sexual orientation that is or a gender identity that is unaccepted within our society, or or a various religious belief, like Satanism, or whatever it is, you know, I we all have something that feels out of step with society, and feels inhuman when it might first rear its head inside of us. And so the werewolf story. You know, I think that scary stories that that scary myths and scary stories that they stick around, they're valuable, because they they help us process our own nature in many, many different ways. You know, and so that's why the ghost story is still around. That's why the horror story exists, because I because it serves a very important psychological need for people and I. And I think that the werewolf story is similar. And I totally internalized it, it was totally helpful for me in coming to terms with my own sexuality. It's like it was the first thing that I reached out to and grabbed on to when I started to experience my gay orientation.

Liza Kurtz 49:17
I think I had a very similar thing with werewolves in the sense that I grew up in the South as a, I am a sis woman, I'm a sis white woman, there's a certain demand of femininity and whether or not you do it is up to you, but you pay a price. But werewolves are the exact antithesis of that, particularly for people who have been socialized female or otherwise expected to be non physical and submissive. And so when you learn about werewolves, at least for me, it was like, Oh, hell yeah, I want to run naked under the moon through the woods once a month. Absolutely. I want to eat deer with my teeth. Like I want big claws and big fangs. And I want to be completely unconcerned about whether or not I'm pretty because I'm a motherfucking. Wolf. And I, and there were times right where we've all been in the place of like, and I would just love to rip the people. I don't likes hearts out and eat them in front of.

Stephen Bradford Long 50:18
Please don't, please don't you know, dear listeners, isolate that one bit of audio and post it on YouTube or Twitter, please. This is this is my request.

Liza Kurtz 50:28
Make it your ringtone? I don't care. Cool. This has not been there. Right. And so I think that was part of the appeal of the werewolf is just, it's this pure power that we may or may not have access to in our daily lives, depending on how we're socialized and what we're expected to do.

Stephen Bradford Long 50:50
That's fascinating. Is there any Have you ever come across a story that you know, I'm I'm pretty much a materialist. I'm a skeptic. I'm an atheist. And I come across every so often, though, I come across a story that just kind of blows my mind. And I'm like, What the fuck happened there? Like, what what actually happened is, do you ever come across a story studying this stuff? Where you're like, maybe this is true? Like, do you ever have a pause? Do you ever have a moment, like at at 3am, when you're when you're reading about something, or you're listening to something and you're like, Fuck it, werewolves are real, they exist. Because like, I have the I have this moment on a semi regular basis. Like I remember, I've told this story several times on the podcast now, but a year or two ago, it was like 3am, I was falling down the YouTube rabbit hole, couldn't go to bed. And, you know, I was watching this spelunker guy who explored caves. And then he, he did this video where he claimed to have discovered Paranormal Activity deep in this cave somewhere. And it was, and I was like, it's real. It's all fucking real. And, you know, it only took a Google search to, you know, see how he had faked it, and so on. But do you ever still have moments like that, where you're where you're like, this shit is real werewolves totally exist?

Liza Kurtz 52:28
I, I'm so glad you asked this question, because I didn't even think to tell the story. But that was the genesis of my entire interest in werewolves was, and I'm gonna walk you into it a little complicated. I had just graduated college. And I had a gap between my graduation and my first like, real big girl pants job. And I was like, I want to do something totally unrelated to what I've been doing for four years, I want to do be way out of my comfort zone. I want to go somewhere new. And I ended up doing wolfing, which is worldwide opportunities on organic farms. And it is an a program where you provide labor in exchange for food room and board and training and learning how to take care of these animals. And so I drove from eastern Tennessee, to the deepest part of Southern Missouri in the Ozarks to a it's not even a town. It's an unincorporated community with a population of like 42 called Falcon, Missouri, to work on a goat farm there. And this was I probably had a cell phone but not GPS, it was like only for making calls and texting. And I did have a GPS unit. But my GPS unit absolutely did not know where I was. It was one of those cases where you're like driving and it's filling in the roads behind you. And the only the only like road markers. It was all county roads and even state roads and they just had numbers. And deep in the Ozarks where I've never been before. It's heavily forested, it's beautiful. It's incredibly difficult rolling hills, its rivers, there's absolutely nothing. It's the middle of Mark Twain National Forest. And for some company as it's getting dark, I turn on the radio. And all I have is radio. I don't have anything else My car is old. And I hear a very proper radio announcer voice with no explanation and no lead in just say this is the proper way to deal with werewolves and then give an explanation in very nice, like proper English like announcer English about how you deal with a werewolf problem in your town. And I'm totally alone. I'm going somewhere I've never been it's dark. I haven't spoken to people for like I've been driving for 12 hours and There is a sheer moment of absolute short circuit in my brain where I was like, fuck me entirely. Werewolves are real. I got it wrong this whole time, somehow my entire life, I've just assumed they're not real. And now I'm finding out that they are. And that lasted about five terrifying minutes as I'm in the darkening woods by myself and my old car. And then the announcer actually comes on and says, and that was a reading from Sabine baring Gould's the book of werewolves and what was happening that the local radio station didn't have a budget for anything. And so they would just play LibriVox Recordings when they weren't actively broadcasting. And so this was a Librivox recording of Sabine baring goals, the book of werewolves, and I was hooked from then on. I mean, it was an absolute like, Okay, but what if werewolves were real? What if this was really like the world we were living in? And that is my werewolf interest origin story is that five minutes of bone chilling, not just fear, but this sense that I have been completely wrong about how the world works, and what's real my entire life until now.

Stephen Bradford Long 56:15
I love that story so much. I think you told that story during the your talk at the World Congress moral panics and no, I love that story so much, because it's, it's so human like Oui, oui, I've Well, I won't speak for everyone. But I at least have those moments. I would say quite frequently, I think that my brain is just designed to just trust people. Like, my brain is just designed to believe shit. And that might have something to do with my upbringing, where I was raised by an exorcist. Like, who knows? I can tell you all about that later, at some point. Yeah. And, and I, I have these moments on a near regular basis of just experiencing total enchantment, and terror, and all and surprise and astonishment. Because suddenly, a piece of information hits my world. And it feels like it instantly reconfigures everything. And then a few minutes goes by and I'm like, Oh, wait, no, no, that doesn't add up. What? What? Like, no, that's, that's not true at all. But no, I love that story. And so I think we're coming to the end of our time here. But this has been so much fun. For people who want to read more about this subject or kind of related subjects. Are there any books that you'd recommend?

Liza Kurtz 57:59
There are and I will bring them up right now I have a nice little list. So one of the first things that I would recommend is a couple of academic articles on the werewolf trials. One of the really interesting ones is by Mexico, and it's called battling demons with medical authority. And it's really about this tension between doctors position on werewolves and the two conflicting church positions on werewolves. The other person I would really recommend is a writer called Black court, who wrote a number of articles and books, particularly one called the werewolf in gender, that's really good. Where we'll histories and a really interesting sort of synopsis of a case called a journey to hell reconsidering the lives of oni and werewolf. There's also Matthew Beresford, the white devil, the werewolf in European culture. And there's another one that touches on werewolves, but it's just generally fascinating. It's well shelters, man is which male witches in Central Europe. And that's a really interesting overview of gender and witchcraft that also addresses werewolves, but is a little bit broader in scope.

Stephen Bradford Long 59:16
Awesome. Could you send me could you email me that? Those those titles, and I will, I will put them in the show notes for people who are interested.

Liza Kurtz 59:26
And there's also a great sort of more accessible pop book on the beast of Jabba Dawn specifically called Monster so this ship and Dawn by Jay Smith that I will also send to you

Stephen Bradford Long 59:35
beautiful and for people who want to follow you on social media, where can they do them? Let me try that again. Jesus Christ for people. That's when you know that it's at the end of the hour. I start being not able to communicate. And for people who want to follow you on social media, where can they do that?

Liza Kurtz 59:57
They can find me on Twitter I am at cat phrenologist all one word like,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:00:02
the best fucking twitter handle on the planet, I love that.

Liza Kurtz 1:00:07
I could not believe it was not taken. So that's Tak, Kitty and phrenologist as in someone who measures heads to determine personality types. Yeah, you

Stephen Bradford Long 1:00:17
know, I was just gonna say as it you know, scientific racism.

Liza Kurtz 1:00:21
Exactly. I don't yet charge for my cat phonology services, but I feel that I should as in $75, in a picture of your cat and I will pseudo scientifically tell you all about its personality. This is actually just a way for me to make your money and see pictures of people's kitties.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:00:37
I'm going to send you so my iPhone recently very helpfully informed me that I have over 600 pictures of my cats on Yeah, I don't have like, okay, look, you don't need to call me out like this, like. So I'm going to send you all 600 pictures of my cats. And I can make you can analyze

Liza Kurtz 1:01:01
measurements. Yeah, I will tell you that your cats have distinct personality traits such as cannot decide if they want to be indoor or outdoor from a closed door that they are inopportune Cooper's so that they like to stink the place up at exactly the times you don't want that to be true. And then further populations who will have to await the photos. All the information is amazingly gained just by walking, seeing the walk. That's the camera.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:01:34
So we're totally launching your cat phonology business. Now this is totally happening. We are doing this.

Liza Kurtz 1:01:40
It's like wait, wait my dick pic. Right. Opposed to but it's cats. That's actually where it came from. Yeah. You can also email me directly anytime at ms like MS or manuscript dot z dot k ky@gmail.com.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:02:00
Beautiful. Well, z, this has been a lot of fun. And you can come back anytime.

Liza Kurtz 1:02:05
Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me. And remember to always save that. That 5% of suspension of disbelief in your heart, just in case where wills do turn out to be real.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:02:15
Absolutely whatever. No. So they might act all they might actually be real. All right. Well, that is it for this show. The music is by eleventy seven. You can find them on iTunes, Spotify, iTunes doesn't exist anymore. You can find them on Apple Music.

1:02:34
I just realized I've been saying that for like years now and iTunes is no longer.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:02:41
Yep. All right. Well, that is it for this show. The music is by eleventy seven. You can find them on Apple Music, Spotify or wherever you listen to music. This show is written produced and edited by me Steve and Bradford long and as a production of rock candy recordings. As always, Hail Satan. And thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-Vaush the Nazi Fighter

2022-10-11T08:06:16Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

Vaush_the_Nazi_Fighter
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
disgust, people, leftist, point, person, fucking, arguments, left, stream, feel, called, engage, good, agree, reactionary, virtue, video, thought, youtube video, nazi
SPEAKERS
Vaush, Stephen Bradford Long

00:00
Hi I'm Peterson Toscano I host bubblin squeak here in the rock candy network. I tell personal revealing story whispered Did you just masturbate because I felt a terrible presence of evil. Enter the I make prank phone calls to the past. Federal doll Eliza heimbach speaking into the future, because my boyfriend and I are just not having enough sex, all the problems that you just have to listen to, it's too hard to describe. Check out bubble and squeak wherever you listen to podcasts.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:00
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one go to rock candy recordings.com. We have some amazing shows over there, including eleventy life and Bible bash and bubble and squeak and we are bringing on more shows as we speak. So the network is growing definitely go check it out. Before we get started, I have just a few pieces of housekeeping. First, I am only able to do this show because of my Patreon supporters. So if you want to see the show continue to come out every single week. If you want to see me continue to bring interesting conversations to the world then please go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long and for $1 A month or $5 a month you will get an extra patrons only podcast called the House of heretics along with other rambling insights from me on my Patreon page. So if you want to support the show, please go do that. If you do not have the financial means to do that. I totally understand you can share it with your friends leave an iTunes review. And most of all, continue to enjoy it and listen to it every week because it is ultimately here for your enjoyment. Second, we are still continuing to grow the rock candy Podcast Network and if you have a show or you are thinking of starting one, I would love to hear your pitch. I would love to hear what you're working on. Please send it to me at Steven Bradford long.com And maybe we can produce it. Alright, well, today I am very excited to welcome the YouTuber Vaush to the show. Vaush it's so good to meet you. How are you doing?

Vaush 02:46
I'm doing pretty well. I just came off of a I guess what would be for me an early morning stream. Yeah, it was fun. We yelled about Sargon for a while and then I had a knock. It's kind of Nazi come on for like 10 minutes at the end.

Stephen Bradford Long 02:59
I heard a little bit of that. I heard just at the very end of that when I was watching you frantically try to get off to do this interview. Yeah. So So okay, so you brought up Nazis talk about some tell us some about what you do.

Vaush 03:12
Oh, good. All right, well, so about four or five months ago, I made a YouTube video that was it. There was some minut level of production quality that went into it. And it was fun. And it got some attention because I was already somewhat well known online. And from that point forward, I kept making videos and they got slightly more and more and I started streaming on Twitch and I went from like 20 viewers the stream up to in a month around 400 Which is pretty good. Yeah, pretty, pretty amazing, actually. And then I got banned from Twitch for being very aggressively anti Israel in a in a typically facetious fashion. It's obviously it's a sensitive topic, I should have been more cautious because if you engage in anti Israeli criticism, it easily comes off as anti semitism especially in this climate. But nonetheless

Stephen Bradford Long 04:00
here's the thing. Here's the thing as far as I'm concerned if you are accused of anti semitism at least once you have not truly earned your leftist Bona fie days

Vaush 04:09
Oh unquestionably right up there on my little my little boy scouts satchel, okay, right next to the tent making is because you can't because like Realistically speaking, genocidal apartheid state we all know it is.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:23
It absolutely is. And if it weren't, because it's Israel, it would it would be unanimously condemned across all fronts. And it pretty much is, except for a few factions, you know, in the United States. Yeah,

Vaush 04:39
we're pretty much the only like global supporters, the Israel's, like the largest American military base on the planet.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:44
Yeah, it is. Okay. Well, okay. So moving on. I know that I'm kind of taking a risk having you on because you are a controversial figure. But you are an incredibly interesting figure to me, in part because you are very far left and you You appeal to a very specific crowd online and I think that you're doing great work and I guess you could call it D radicalizing if you want to use that term or bringing another perspective to peep to kids to young men to isolated people on the far right and you're you're kind of helping some of them see that not all leftists are Trigger Happy snowflakes

Vaush 05:30
No, I mean that that really is it though like that's basically the marketing approach distilled to its finest point Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 05:36
you have like this 4chan humor and and you you really remind me of like you're you're basically like this online Nazi slaying guerrilla warlord or something and it's not going to be for everyone and I know that a lot of people listening to my show right now are not going to be your target audience but you know this show is built on having interesting conversations and you're just such an incredibly interesting figure you know, I watched your your appearance on kill stream kill stream being this

Vaush 06:07
disgusting worst of the worst. They're basically subhuman Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 06:12
this disgusting far right Fashi stream like basically Nazis and the way you carried yourself the way you just yes and everything and you know, kind of stepping up to to the jokes and just throwing it right back and me and intermingling. Very good leftist points. I thought you did an amazing job. And it was really an eye. It was really watch the fun. Yeah, yeah. I can imagine that. That random guy though. Holy shit. Yeah, he was. Oh, God.

Vaush 06:51
He's been He's beyond parody. So I guess I can't even make jokes about him. Because he feels like the problem God's set up for the universe to make fun of Tim. There's no, there's no, yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 07:00
yeah, yeah, that was God's setup for for the rest of us to make fun of the far far right. Okay, so what? So you're a streamer for people who don't know what that is? Because I do have some baby boomer listeners. What? What is it? What is that? What do you do? Yeah, so

Vaush 07:15
essentially, it works a little bit differently depending on the site. But essentially, what it means is that you do a live broadcast from a camera or from a desktop, and you basically speak to a live audience and essentially create in the case of YouTube, at least, you would create a YouTube video live. And after you end the stream, that stream is done and everything that you put together the base recording element, plus your commentary, plus the chat lane on top and all the disparate elements that you put onto your stream, it becomes the YouTube video. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 07:45
it's a very frightening media medium for me because I occasionally say stuff that I can just never take back. And and so that's why I edit all of my shows like and it makes me wish that I could just edit every single thing I say the way I edit a podcast like oh, let's just let's just cut

Vaush 08:05
Ctrl G that one yeah, I I have admired streaming culture for as long as I've been like internet happy I was on Justin tv 10 years ago, back before it became Twitch, TV. And now, YouTube streaming, I really liked the authenticity of having to engage with your ideas live and having to, I suppose there's, it's very difficult to maintain a facade, when you're engaging with difficult ideas, and you're doing so in a live format, it's very hard to keep that persona for isn't a prepared video, you have literally no idea what desperateness there is between the video that's been produced and the people making it, that intimacy really drove me to stream.

Stephen Bradford Long 08:43
I totally agree with that. Because there's like this disarming immediacy of it, where there's when like, say, the medium that I work in podcasting, there are so many layers between you, the creator and the audience. So so many filters, so many layers, whereas with what you do, it's like, all right there. And I think that there's something about that disarming quality of streaming that allows people to feel particularly safe, not safe, but but like it is a particularly honest medium. And that's really powerful.

Vaush 09:21
That's why I do what I do, I think because my main argument here is that literally anybody can do what I do. I'm I benefit. Obviously, my products have a good environment, and I'm a good speaker, but fundamentally, like I want to show people that you can just wake up roll out of bed, go on, and crush every single reactionary talking point every time with minimal preparation except for the harder scientific and historical stuff. But even then, minor preparation and you're probably good. That's why for my YouTube videos, I usually show up in like a tank top with unkempt hair. I don't edit out the times where I like swear or fuck up or drop something or have to like get up to pick something for that I've thrown facetiously over to the other side of the room, because I want to show people that just being an idiot online, something we all like to do doesn't have to be mutually exclusive to the kind of academic debunking of reactionary thought, which needs to take place right now.

Stephen Bradford Long 10:17
Right? Okay, so you're doing something that I think the left really desperately needs the left desperately needs people to actually take the arguments head on. And too often we resort to disgust, understandable disgust, absolutely legitimate disgust very much. And I and I don't hold a grudge against anyone for whom Disgust is their primary emotion towards white nationalists and Neo Nazis and whatnot. However, when that is our only respond when the response ends at How dare you and not actually get into the conversation, not actually get into the argument, that's a problem. And so I really think the left needs people like you who are willing to go into these places and have these kinds of brutal conversations and you just decimate some of these people you'd it's it's really wonderful to watch. So you mentioned some you mentioned how you very feel like you very easily decimate these right wing talking points and arguments. What are the most common arguments that you come across in these online spaces?

Vaush 11:24
I think the easiest, the most common the natural answer is of course, that there are no arguments it's just feelings, but it's how they pull arguments from those feelings. The most common feeling I see expressed is disgust. This emotional vitriolic, this is usually against trans people or against a dark skinned people and they pull from this a bunch of box because I am disgusted. We must not be able to get along because I am disgusted. There must be something wrong. Almost all of their arguments stem fundamentally from a distrust of the other, this very base, primal, tribalistic urge.

Stephen Bradford Long 12:01
Yeah, it's a very primitive part of the brain. And you know, that's actually what stood out the most to me in your interview, or your conversation on the kill stream was how those guys were operating out of such an intensely deep sense of disgust of queer people of LGBT people and whatnot like that. Right?

Vaush 12:21
I was a, I was a spiritual faggot, apparently. Because the rant the rant guy called me a fag. And I was like, yes, very openly pan, this isn't even. And, and then, and then he was like, Okay, well, and then later they called, they called me, he called me a faggot again. And I said, we've been over this and he said, Well, you were spiritual faggot. I remember that was a level of disgust. That's very fascinating to me, because I can't imagine hating a person that much. Yeah.

Stephen Bradford Long 12:49
It's fascinating. Well, you know, and then my favorite part of that whole conversation actually, was when was when he was like, I need details. Give me details of of man sex. And you're like, do you want that?

Vaush 13:03
Yeah, I'll do. I don't know why. Yeah, see, like, testing me. I have the D. I've got the videos on my phone. I mean, I'll well, I won't go that far.

Stephen Bradford Long 13:12
But you know, yeah. So so there's this element. There's this sense that disgust like reaches spiritual heights. And it is this unexamined thing in the far right psyche. And really, a lot of what I see you doing, and some other people doing, like Contra points is basically kind of forcing people to stop and reconsider that innate disgust response. Because I really think that Disgust is like one of the most primal responses in human nature, like it's one of the most primal responses in the human mind. And we often take it for granted, we assume that our disgust correlates to really you know, comports with reality and it just doesn't. And so, I what I see people like you doing is, is helping people kind of stop and reconsider their disgust of the other.

Vaush 14:04
Yeah, I think because there's a lot of and the weird thing is there are a lot of ways in which we already acknowledged that disgust and moral ops don't correspond. It's like for example, SCAP fetishism, okay. Most people would agree that scat like you know, being in the poop most people would

Stephen Bradford Long 14:21
have for the uninitiated.

Vaush 14:24
For those of you who don't share my kings, the most people would agree and myself included that this is very really disgusting. And I will happily take shots at these people if it's ever socially if it ever comes up in conversation which it doesn't very often in my communities I don't know about everyone else's, but I don't think most people would agree that it should be illegal but the but they can't they they can accept that. These alt right people for the most part, but they can't accept the same divide between variable and disgust and like policy or moral fan right? That they see In gender, sexual minorities and immigrants are in any of the myriad things they find excuses to get upset over every single day.

Stephen Bradford Long 15:08
Right? So when you are confronted with someone who is expressing this kind of disgust, what do you do?

Vaush 15:13
I see, I this is something that I think a lot of people fuck up on on the left, you can't moralize empathy and you can't change axiomatic values. Like for instance, mine being Put very simply to maximize wellbeing for sentient creatures. It's a fairly standard one most people agree with. In fact, I would go so far as to say almost all do there except like very religious people might think like venerating God might be above that. And some people think tradition or bloodline, that would be like a Nazi take, but for the most part, we want to maximize well being. So my arguments then aren't like, hey, you need to change your values, because there are sincere Nazis out there like Nicolas Fuentes, for example, who will say in his streams that if he encounters science that disagrees with the outcomes, he believes he'll call it Jewish science, and he won't accept it. He knows he's being irrational, because rationality isn't important to him. What I can do is for the people who aren't that far gone, the people who do believe that in some twisted way, ethno states or hating feminism will bring about a more equal world, I can show them that they're being hypocritical. That's all I can do. I can't make them better people, I can't change their values. But I can show them how their values if they believe in what I believe, which most people do are not being supported by the policy positions. They're taking on major social issues. That's

Stephen Bradford Long 16:28
really interesting. So you aren't appealing to empathy. You aren't appealing to many of the major talking points, because frankly, they don't care. You know, like, frankly, they don't care about empathy. But what they do care about maybe if I'm reading you correctly, is intellectual consistency. Yeah.

Vaush 16:45
Because that's, that's their straw man, they'll that's what they believe. They believe the world is full of cruel, hard truths, like black people are less intelligent than white people, like men are better than women. And some and the world would be best if we acknowledge these truths, and we're responsible in dealing with them. But some people, the crazy leftists are emotionally screeching, you have to be empathy. You absolutely have to be empathetic. You have to be nice to people. And they think that this is a way of emotionally diffusing the truth of the world where I say no, that is not the case, the empathy argument is almost secondary. In reality, your facts are wrong. Your assumptions about the world are empirically incorrect. Empathy isn't necessary to demonstrate while you're wrong.

Stephen Bradford Long 17:26
Exactly, you know, you bring up a really interesting point that I've actually been thinking about quite a bit, which is, you know, I wrote an article recently called My complicated feelings about Sam Harris, where I talked some about this, and you know how, for people who don't know and for those of you who are sick and tired of me talking about Harris, I'm so sorry. But he, you know, he had Charles Murray of the bell curve infamy on his show and basically promoted it and said, you know, this is undisputable science. And I wrote all about this and wins when a controversy like this comes up. It is often construed as these are facts. And the left just can't handle the facts. And the left just needs to accept the facts and the we're being triggered happy. We're being you know, triggered by facts. And and there are two insights that I gleaned from this, first of all, that that science and reason are brands and not practices of the right, that they are that it's posturing it is all posturing that this free open exchange of ideas, the freedom of the free exchange of the market of ideas, willingness to debate, willingness to, you know, reason, it's it is marketing and branding, but not praxis. And second, I disagree with the facts. The reason why I personally object to what Sam Harris says about race is because it is it scientifically wrong.

Vaush 18:55
I have never in my life, for instance, and they take this too far. Sometimes they'll always there reactionaries will say like there are leftists who don't believe that men are stronger than women on average, or some nonsense like that, where I have in I think in the entirety of my Of course, there were three to six minutes, because that's their language. But I think I have in the entirety of my life met exactly one person who did not believe that cisgender men were on average stronger than so. Yeah, exactly. And they were made fun of by everyone else in that community. There's nothing wrong with empirical truth. And there's a little bit of natural inequality in the world a little bit, but that natural inequality is then expounded upon into articles and books and mountains of propaganda meant to reinforce a preeminent social structure on the right it is yeah. Oh, yeah. Unquestionably. Yeah. Like everything that we knew about race today is a product of justifying the relationship between Africans and white Europeans post transatlantic slave trade, and and following that after the moral, the moralistic Bible thumping argument for why white people had dominion over black people began to fall to the wayside. We had scientific racism rise with Darwin, even in Charles Murray's fucking book, which I have read, there is data in there, which is either inaccurately compiled or which expanded to this day becomes contrary to his initial point to speak specifically on that, I remember there's a particular study that he goes on about in his book about how the addition of resources into a traditionally disadvantaged community, like a black community didn't lead to an increase in performance and education. And they it was a longitudinal study where they went for a short period of time, and it seemed like there was an initial jump in its effectiveness, but then it tapered off. But then that's ended in the 90s. If we look at the exact same data set continued to today, it arct back up again. Yeah, those people are now basically on par with white people have similar exact

Stephen Bradford Long 20:49
circumstance. Exactly. Yeah. No, no, no, it's it's fascinating. And you know, the most incredible thing I don't know, if you followed the whole Sam Harris as recline fee. Go, I did Oh, my God, oh, man, you should you should do a stream about that. I mean, that's old news. Now, that's ancient history now for the internet. But it would be interesting to hear your take on it. But you know, there's that moment when when Ezra Klein is trying to contextualize why we do see these IQ gaps in America. And like, you know, there's there's generational racism and abuse and how that creates the the causes of, you know, and how that how that creates systemic oppression, which then affects the IQs of certain marginalized groups. It's pretty basic stuff. And Sam Harris legit said that the science does not matter. He He said, No, no, no, no, no, he did not. He said the history is irrelevant. The history does not matter. The data is just the data and the history, that might be girding that data is irrelevant to him. Yeah, it was just the most astonishing part of that, that whole fiasco, this, this is about the level of

Vaush 22:03
intellectual consistency, I would expect from somebody started out as like a new atheist critic of Islam, who then later corroborated with Christian conservatives, an anti Muslim, like, yes, you have to be we must be very listened, as you said perfectly science and reason these things are brands, not practices for the right. Anybody who makes the claim? Yes, I am very rational and logical and using Rational logic, I will deduce that, oh, the skull shape is you must

Stephen Bradford Long 22:32
be red flags, these red flag

Vaush 22:35
because, again, it's very much like being a good person you show you do not tell anyone who promotes the the skepticism and the wisdom of science without being able to follow it through in practice is wearing it as a cloak to justify views that cannot be justified scientific

Stephen Bradford Long 22:52
or apply it to themselves, you know, and that's, that's the thing that I get the most frustrated with. Science tells us just how irrational we are. And just how prone to cognitive bias and error we are. And exactly like

Vaush 23:06
with data collection, there were 1000 when I studied sociology, a million ways you have to be cognizant of your personal biases. When selecting your data range, selecting the sample size, where are you going to sample them? How are you going to label them? How do you leave your questions in what order are the questions place? What are the questions leading towards, though and then and then up in the data interpretation are a million ways in which bias can affect our but they don't care in that board awards of Lauren southern data is just the plural of anecdote, she said, saying that after talking to a dozen or so people in Europe, she decided that everyone there hated the Muslim immigrants. This this adaption of and simultaneous complete rejection of science and rational thought is one of the most dangerous things happening to public discourse. And that's why when I'm arguing with white leaning people, I'm so keen to call them what they love so much triggered snowflakes, not rational and they hate being called anything other than rational. And I want to point that out at every chance that I get.

Stephen Bradford Long 24:03
Absolutely. You know, there was just a great article by Nathan Robinson on current affairs about Steven Pinker and how you know pinker is is one of the less offensive people on the right and I do think that he is often as kind of a figure of the right but he told me you know, Nathan Robinson points out how you know, people on the right are so quick to call to say that leftists are you know, prone to hyperbole and then in the very next sentence, they say that we are Stalinist for, you know, using gender pronouns,

Vaush 24:35
Islam is destroying the West exactly place for white people to live in a

Stephen Bradford Long 24:40
completely unselfconsciously completely on ironically, unselfconsciously, and it is fucking hilarious to me. So yeah, go

Vaush 24:48
on know what they're doing. They know what they're doing. Do. I foundationally reject this idea that reactionary, like, demagogues are just kind of dumb people who are just saying what they've been told, because there are people like that like like Trump. For example, I think we all generally agree that Trump is not the brightest or now, but I think these people like Thunderfoot like Sargon of Akkad like Tim Poole, like Dave Rubin, I foundationally reject the idea that these people don't know what they're doing. I regard them for what they are. They are crypto fascists, who are using the the guise of sort of a liberal, abject love of open discussion to willfully promote far right talking points, and I think they should be treated with contempt that title would what would matter it? Yeah, I

Stephen Bradford Long 25:32
agree. They're completely Craven. So you mentioned you, you mentioned, Jesus Christ, I just lost my train of thought. Oh, so So you mentioned before? So you mentioned pointing out people's hypocrisy. You've mentioned not not appealing to empathy when talking to people on the far right. And you mentioned how disgust, kind of girds everything underlies everything that they do. Is there anything other than disgust that you often run into in debating these people?

Vaush 26:02
Yeah, I think it's a very, it's a very juvenile desire to be able to live free of criticism. Yeah, this is yes, I think this is this is the core appeal that I tried to get at Disgust is very, very difficult to remove. If a person is just grossed out by trans people, there are probably 1000 empirically wrong things that they associate with that disgust. But the emotional reaction, those are just justifications, the emotional reaction is very difficult to get rid of. I can't do that rhetorically, at least not not in an afternoon. But what I can do. I'm a living example to that to too many people, many of them being disaffected, lonely, young, white dudes in the West, that you can be a left leaning person, not just left leaning, I mean, I'm pretty far left. And I can be radically edgy. I argue constantly with my audience with people who critique me online. I am irreverent I use and I understand this is contentious. But I've even gone up to bat for occasionally using racial slurs in contextually appropriate ways. I mean, I in every way, shape and form I represent the the epitome of I guess, the freedom, the the ability to act in spite of criticism that they look and admire in right leaning figures, except they do it without being a fucking Nazi. And I think they crave that because they feel like if you're a leftist, you have to be really like careful and walk on eggshells, and everyone gets offended really easily. And because that lifestyle is an obstacle to them living life in the way they want to, they will turn towards any political ideology that claims to be able to offer an alternative,

Stephen Bradford Long 27:42
right? You know, I had this really just going into some personal history here. So I left the internet in 2014 because of my mental health where I had like a full blown psychotic break. And so I just had to leave for like two or three years and then I came back in 2016. And I felt like leftist circles online had completely changed the the the atmosphere had become much more vicious, especially GamerGate fucking ruined. Yeah, GamerGate ruined everything. And the you know, the climate just became much more vicious. And, you know, I here's the thing, I'm, I'm a southern mountain boy, I was raised in an ultra conservative setting. And if it weren't for being gay, and coming out of the closet and finding, you know, queer circles, I would be probably a Trump guy, or an or an All right guy right now, like, for sure I would be some douchebag libertarian, and I was a douchebag libertarian through college when I was trying to be straight. And when I was on the verge of marrying a girl like, and then if it weren't for coming face to face with my own sexual minority status and confronting my own disgust towards myself, if it weren't for that I would not be where I am today. But that isn't to say that I don't that I didn't swim in those waters and said some stupid shit. You know? And so

Vaush 29:06
I'm just gonna say, I'm very fortunate to have been born into circumstances where I was never made to feel ashamed or disgusted about any part. In that respect.

Stephen Bradford Long 29:14
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You are very, very lucky. And and so, you know, when I confronted all that, I was forced to reconsider my views on just about everything. But then occasionally, I would still say stupid stuff online because I didn't understand trans people or I didn't understand Granted it was stupid. It was shitty, and but the dogpiling and villainizing that took place was far out of proportion. And was like kind of traumatizing

Vaush 29:45
almost, I'm telling you, it's the PC authoritarian left the PC cancel culture leftist. They're

Stephen Bradford Long 29:51
coming for you. Yeah, they are. Kidding. And

Vaush 29:54
to some extent, I'm not sure if I'm kidding, actually.

Stephen Bradford Long 29:58
Well, okay, here's getting here. Here's the thing. Here's here's the sad truth is there is a problem. But the good news is that it is not nearly as big a problem as the far right wants to make it out to be. Oh, unquestioned. Yeah, question, Can

Vaush 30:12
I really quickly address a sort of a conflation? I've noticed in leftist communities, yes, the but in regards, I think to the conflation of leftist circles, there are two things that a politically oriented space can be and they can be a space for advocacy, and they can be a space for comfort. Yeah. So I guess intellectual discourse or safe spaces, and I feel like the two the right and the left took two very different outlooks on how they should organize their political spaces. On Reddit. For example, back during Gamergate, a lot of the big right leaning subs like Kotaku in action, which became like the GamerGate subreddit, they weren't oriented around making their users comfortable. People argued in there all the time. They were vicious to each other, but they their viciousness towards one another was superseded by their overwhelming hatred and advocacy against feminism, cultural Marxism, PT, left, whatever, whatever. Whereas in the predominant left leaning subreddits they recoiled inward, they grew more insular, they grew more paranoid, they grew more close and defensive of their vulnerable communities. And I understand why that happened, because the rights vulnerable communities are gamers. And the left's vulnerable communities are fuckin trans people and gender and sexual minorities and people have targeted racial minorities and religious minorities. So it makes sense that we would have to be more careful about the safety of our constituency, right.

Stephen Bradford Long 31:32
They're more existentially fragile, right? They're more existentially fragile than white says gamers.

Vaush 31:38
But we went too fucking far. Most of the discussion spaces for the left turned into safe spaces, people went inwards rather than out. We stopped engaging in advocacy. We gave them YouTube, people didn't start making lefty YouTube videos until 2016. Like two or three years where they had uncontested supremacy over people's watch feeds, it got worse and worse and worse. And only after the Trump election. I think that people wake up and realize that this problem wasn't going to go away with snarky comments made in Twitter feeds for like your vote follower accounts that are exclusively insolently. Like, supporting one another and not engaging with the outside world. It's very frustrating. We need soldiers. We need strong, charismatic, open minded open hearted people who don't mind getting their hands dirty going out there and doing real advocacy. Because if we don't do that the Nazis are going to get to those kids first and they have been they

Stephen Bradford Long 32:35
are Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, pew, I think a good argument can be made that PewDiePie is radicalizing, like an entire generation of kids. Yeah, easily, easily. And and I mean, uh, okay, so a lot of my listeners, I have a lot of older listeners, you know, I have a very broad spectrum of generation listens to this show. And for people who who might not understand this PewDiePie has how many millions of subscribers I haven't Hold on. I think he's a bit above 90 now. 90 million, 90 million subscribers, most of them kids, a lot of kids ages like seven to

Vaush 33:11
2096 96 million.

Stephen Bradford Long 33:15
Yeah. 96 million subscribers, most of them kids, all right. And this is the guy who, who flirts with Nazi talking points. And he flirts with and he promotes figures like Peterson and he and he promotes far right Nazi ideologues. Okay, so I often hear in leftist circles, it is not my job to educate, educate, right at your job to educate yourself, it is your job to educate yourself. technically true. And here's the thing, if you are, if you are in a in a place of recovery, you know, especially for queer folks, if you're in a place of recovering from religious trauma, like deal with that shit first, however, I really believe and this is one thing that feels what I do. I really believe that our How do I want to say this, I really believe that the future is predicated on conversion. And if we don't, if we don't convert people, then then there's no hope. And if we don't go out and engage people where they are, then the left just has no hope. And so in a way it is our job to educate.

Vaush 34:24
Yeah, this is this is this is just I mean, like, I'm sorry, and I know this is like a boomer talking point. But life really isn't fair. There was never an end of history, there was never a point of comfort. We have as leftist always exist on the precipice of existential oblivion. And the only way especially now that the left doesn't just mean like anarchists and Unionists. Now, the left encompasses gender sexual minorities, racial minorities, so on and so forth. It now there's even more pins of intersectional oppression sort of stamping on us and if we want any shot whatsoever at making it into the next century, we cannot just capitulate the entire I already have the the triggering the micro aggressing. The, the I can't even internet to reactionaries. It's like this isn't I don't even I, I sympathize for people who are not personally in a place where they feel comfortable doing it. I understand that I really do. And I wouldn't advocate those people go out there and engage in advocacy that could be dangerous or threatening for them. But I know God damn well, there are 1000s of people who could be who aren't. Yeah, I'm really sick of that shit. I'm really sick every single time I make a YouTube video, for example, and whatever views 1015 20,000 people and I look at the comments. The comments are rife with people who agree with me if every single one of those people went out and did one thing, a single thing. Yeah, this is very, this is very dumb grassroots logic. Oh, if only everyone who watched this video went out and picked up a piece of trash litter. This is dumb. And I know I'm engaging in intellectually reductionist arguments right now. But it's frustrating to me because I know if you make if you're a right leaning person, and you make a video shitting on say, Anita Sarkeesian NAB Sarkeesian is going to wake up tomorrow with an inbox full of hate mail. Okay, if I make a video shitting on someone, that person is not going to wake up with hate mail. And sorry, not that I'm advocating we threaten or Doc's, the people we disagree. I would never do that. But it would be nice if we were a little more

Stephen Bradford Long 36:22
active if we were a bit more proactive. I 100% agree with that. Yeah, I completely agree with that the right fucking circle the rat, the wagons, like they lined the fuck up to protect their own and they they have internal disagreements, but I've been astonished by like, say for example, the Protestant Catholic conservative coalition that is formed against LGBT rights ancient enemies, age old enemies coming together to because they're both conservatives you know, shit like that. Whereas we can even get along on twitter.

Vaush 37:03
Nicolas Nicolas Fuentes says the little YouTube Nazi is a Catholic and he stands the kk k who lynched Catholic that there's a there's a here I don't know if he wants me to give his name out because this is so sensitive information. But there was a former far right figure on YouTube, who I had the privilege of speaking with recently. And he said that it's well known within their circles. You never go right? You never target right. No matter what exactly circumstances you never criticize somebody for being more conservative, more reactionary, more xenophobic than you never or you lose the support of everyone to the right of you.

Stephen Bradford Long 37:38
Yeah, yeah. And and so they circle the wagons and this isn't to say that I think that we should never criticize the left I mean, that's what we're doing here. We are definitely criticizing the left

Vaush 37:49
plenty of people criticize me Jesus Christ. Yeah, yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 37:52
exactly. And I think we should criticize the left however I don't know I just wish that you know the the metaphor that it often reminds me of is like you know all the different houses in Westeros fighting each other and killing each other

Vaush 38:06
while the while the night eternal frost. The Night

Stephen Bradford Long 38:11
King the winter, you know, the White Walkers are coming to destroy them.

Vaush 38:16
I say having I say having a bridge. It's season four. And now let's see anything since

Stephen Bradford Long 38:20
Exactly. Yeah. For everything, keep it that way. Keep it that way. It goes to go. What was that? Okay, say something. Hello? Okay, good. I have no idea what just happened but it's all fine now. But ya know, that way

Vaush 38:34
O'Brien's death to the mountain is probably as good of a highlight to leave the series off.

Stephen Bradford Long 38:38
Oh my god, I stopped watching them too. Because like I was so heartbroken over the hot bisexual. View sadness. Oh my god, I could not deal I was like the hot bisexual man who I had dreams about. Like I worshipped him and then just like a fucking like a grape. Yeah, no, that was deeply traumatizing. And I'm not sure if I've recovered yet from that. So so let's talk about some since we are already talking about critiquing the left. What are your pet peeves with the left?

Vaush 39:12
Oh, God. All right. Okay, you can just you can step away if you'd like to use the restroom or maybe take a hot shower. I've got this, okay. Okay. All right. I've got I'm here for it. Listen, okay, I'm here for two. Point number one sensitivity is not a virtue. It's not sensitivity that is to say, being easily offended does not make you a better person. It does not make anyone a bad person, it does not make the world a better place. There is a certain degree of callousness of joviality of irreverence, which is unquestionably a virtue, to be able to deal with the hard truths of life and take them on the shoulder with with a with a certain degree of you know, with a positive attitude. Frankly, there are some people to whom they conflate sensitivity with virtue, that the more keenly tuned they are to society. problems and the more aggressive they are in calling them out, then the more sincerely they care. I don't believe this. This is a lie. I don't believe this for a moment. There are many people out there and I'm mostly talking about Twitter, who, whose interest in leftism is is relegated almost exclusively to a vehicle through which they can push their own personal brand of moral superiority. Does that sound like when right wingers called left wingers? Virtue? signalers? Yes, yes, I believe they're right. Frankly. There are so many people on the left for whom it the advocacy. Nope. Good practice. Nope. convincing people? Nope. Doing anything pause in the world. Nope. But showing up in other people's mentions and correcting them on some terminology than telling them yanks. You need to do some reading. Yep. Big. Yep. That's what we're here for.

Stephen Bradford Long 40:49
It's about accruing social capital is what it is it you know, it's about accruing social currency. You know, I love Angela nagels point in her book, kill all normies which has come under some criticism, but she makes a great point and kill all normies where she says that virtue has become currency on Twitter. And as a result, we dunk on people, we destroy people, we're constantly looking for someone's inner demons so as to call it out and accrue virtue at the expense of that other person. And I'm just done with that. I'm so fucking done. Because here's the thing, none of us get out alive. None of us get out of that system out of that social currency alive because we're all fuck ups. And it creates a a system where we have to be dishonest about ourselves and who we are. I don't want to pretend to be a good person when I'm not necessarily always a good person. Like I don't want to pretend to be a decent human being when sometimes I'm not sometimes I haven't been and I want to be able to be human and honest about those things without having and not having to hide those things. I think we'll just be such a better place. Does that make sense? rationally?

Vaush 42:00
No, I'm questionably and I agree perfectly and I think any even a cursory look to my stream. I recently I recently put up a video on black conservative so it was a response I was watching this morning. Yeah, yep. And enter and two minutes into the video. The first thing I say is that I love yelling at Black people because I still have pent up energy from being a libcaca for getting upset that I couldn't criticize black people with bad takes because I didn't want to speak over POC voices. So it was a joke, of course one, obviously. But and then five minutes in the video I'm arguing with my girlfriend over whether weird about black people. No.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:34
I was watching that. Yeah, all very

Vaush 42:36
course, obviously. And it made a lot of people uncomfortable, but fine. I'm not interested in promoting myself as some like supremely moral person. And if anything, I think one of the most immoral things you can do is to pose yourself as this unfathomable paragon of virtue, but to do nothing with it. So to all of the people out there whose contributions to the world are simply existing in some state of ivory tower moral superiority because you're constantly correcting other people's terminology or telling people the need to read up or being super sympathetic to other disadvantaged people in a way that doesn't actually require you to do anything. You just have to say to those people, I would say put your money where your mouth is do something, make a YouTube video, make startup anymore, go do some practice and like takeover a Facebook conservative group page and turn it into like a gay pride. Anthem do suck just do something. Because I'm sick the every time I look at these people when they criticize me not to say I don't get valid criticisms, that's a daily thing. But often I look at the people who criticize me and I take a look at what their sort of profile is about how do they present themselves to the world, and it's exclusively about maintaining the facade the facility of the most hyper sensitive, most achingly orthodox lefty little bitch baby imaginable and we get nothing these people do nothing the world isn't made a better place for this guy right?

Stephen Bradford Long 44:03
And I know I'm and oh my god, I know I'm gonna get so much heat for having you on the show. But here's the thing here's why I have you on who's the one talking to the Nazis? Who's the one actually converting them who's the one actually compelling the Nazis who are winnable to come to the left? Who's the one actually doing that? It's you and

Vaush 44:22
I, every day I get like an email or a message or several being like, Hey, I used to be on like the I guess they call it the pipeline. But I saw you and I saw messages on the bread tube separate or posts like, Hey, I just got into the left from VOSH I don't do this. This isn't a braggadocious thing for me. This isn't like I don't have any credit that I'm trying to inflate. I my goal. I guess from the onset, when I made this was if I can live if I can literally just convince one person I left undone my like carbon weight in the world. You know, I will. That is my that is me replicating myself, but I've done so hundreds or even 1000s of times over I agree. And I I I mean, if I would ask any of my detractors, then if what I do is unnecessary if what I do is course and cheapens discourse and doesn't represent the left. Well, why does it work? And if you want to create a better alternative, someone who does what I do, but does it without many of my edgy eccentricities, please do? God, we need it, please,

Stephen Bradford Long 45:21
here's what I'm taking out of this. And what I've been thinking about a lot lately is we need a multiplicity of reactions. We need a multiplicity of methods and how we attack this issue. And there's a place for someone like me, who's you know, pretty even keeled and very measured and pretty subdued almost to a fault. And then there are people like you who aren't who are, who are rage machines and,

Vaush 45:46
and who are calling for this discussion. To my credit.

Stephen Bradford Long 45:49
Yeah, you are, you're being very, very good boy, you're being a very, very good boy. Yeah. And then there are people like you who are just hilarious rage machines and who have this wit that I do not have, but but there are different methods that are needed. And so before when I see people kind of dunk on people like you or Chapo trap house, or you know, that that far left dirtbag ish, I just want to tell people to look at the stakes. Look at the world we live in right now and realize that we need this kind of discourse in and we can't be complaining about it.

Vaush 46:30
It's I mean, I think we all need to remember that people will always gravitate towards comfort, very rare, there are very few there are very few people with the moral fortitude to recognize they're doing something wrong, even though that wrong thing feels good, even though that from thing could continue to feel good with no negative outcomes for the rest of their life, at least not negative outcomes for them. And then to change it. Very few people can do that. Now, people should do that. I mean, that's why we have vegans, right? A lot of vegans recognize the fundamental immorality of the animal abuses committed by the meat farming industry. And then we have me who does but it's not a vegan because the comfort of eating food and dairy soup, I mean, meat and dairy supersedes my moral, I am weak, you see, but so are other people. And if you are a kid, an edgy teenage libertarian as I once was, yep. Ron Paul, me too. It felt good. It felt good. And you know, what if I was courted by two different groups of people, and one of them the first one is a fascist, they wouldn't tell me that, of course, they would say they're, you know, left leaning centrist or, you know, classical liberal or something, but they would come at me and they would say, like, hey, you know, this cool Remember all those times something your world would shit remember when Tyrone slept with with Sansa that chick you're crushing on. There's a lot of problems going on in the world right now. You're perfect the way you are, as long as you're white and a man. But this is the world's fucked up and hey, listen, come with me, I'm going to show you I'm going to show you what's wrong with the world, you won't have to change anything about your behavior, you won't have to be nice, you won't have to be morally consistent, you won't have to be ethical, you won't have to be intelligent. All you have to do is hate who he tells you to. Yeah, and then on the left leaning side, we have pay. So there are a lot of problems with the world, like like that other guy said. But actually, as it turns out, the problems are with you, or at least with people who look like you and act like you. So you're gonna need to change a lot about your behavior, we're going to need to teach you about institutional racism and sexism. And we need to actually come at five, we're gonna need to scrap this whole thing. You'll basically be a completely different person in five years if you follow us, but it'll be better not for you, but for like black people and women. Now, these are obviously very uncharitable and hyperbolic representations of how these people are coded. But I think this is how it

Stephen Bradford Long 48:44
feels it is 100% how it feels because that's how it felt to me. Yeah, yeah. And 100%

Vaush 48:50
putting our best foot forward and not even slightly

Stephen Bradford Long 48:53
Yeah, yeah, so we'll just go right into maybe the the more awkward part of the conversation. All right,

Vaush 48:59
I love awkward.

Stephen Bradford Long 49:00
I know you do so as probably some viewers will point out, you have been accused of something sexual misconduct. Now I have my thoughts on this. And I will share them in a moment but go ahead and go ahead and address that. Yeah, so

Vaush 49:15
the gist of it and I'm glad you brought this up. Because it seems to it seems to follow me which I think it should but I wish the discourse surrounding it was a little bit more productive. So essentially, about a year and a half ago on Discord. I had a friendship on blind with ago, I didn't have a public platform at this time. We were just two randos but we were friends for a couple of months. And it was a mutually I would say toxic relationship and that we were both fairly mentally unwell. But for the most part, the conversation was something we both perpetuated. And then when it ended because we got into a big argument, the person with whom I had spoken, accused me of having sexually harassed her. And at first I felt like no, I fucking didn't What the fuck you talking about? And and there was a big hullabaloo about it back then. But it kind of petered out until a few months ago, at which point it came up again, except this time in a much bigger context, because of my public figure now, so obviously, the so and I looked over the logs again, and I looked over it, and I was like, Wait, yeah, this is kind of fun. Right? Okay. Wait, hold on. It was

Stephen Bradford Long 50:21
looked over there looked over the logs of your conversations with this girl.

Vaush 50:25
Right, right. Yes. Yeah, very Yikes. See, yeah. And I'm a very prideful person, it should not take much viewing of my content for a person to recognize that it is difficult for me to admit fault, but that was unquestionably bad behavior. So I saw I wanted to be so I made a video on it on the drama, like in regards to recent drama on my channel, and I think I addressed the sort of central points and Okay, so that happened, and that was bad. And I think we all do a fair number of bad things. I think what was worse, at least in the immediate sense was that I've reacted initially very like pridefully to the accusations. And as you probably know, when I somebody says something I think is fucking stupid. I don't just politely disagree with them. So I dug I dug myself into something of a hole. The broader gist of it though, is that I see the the allegations i What's the term for substantiated allegations, accusations? I see this drama brought up fairly frequently in online circles, as I think it should, I would never exempt myself from criticism. Other things. It frustrates me there are a lot of people who say things that are like kinda untrue. Like they call me like a rapist or whatever, which is unfortunate, but it happens I guess it'd be sort of pretentious for me to assume that I would be like the one online person over whom there was no hyperpolarization concerning allegations of sexual or sexually inappropriate behavior. But yeah, I guess if I if I had one thing to say about it, like in a specific sense, it would be like just feel free to criticize me I'm totally okay with that. But please don't do so when like this really weird like punitive way because there are a lot of people I've seen who were like arguing whether or not I should be allowed to have a public platform I already have one it's not going away. Yeah, so maybe argue for like nothing I could do or maybe I should like, do like something to be productive please because there are so many conversations that are rooted in outrage and nothing else.

Stephen Bradford Long 52:21
Yeah, so here are my thoughts on this you are you so you've been accused of these things? And I recommend everyone go check out your video on the subject because I watched that video and I was personally satisfied because you expressed grief over what what you've realized was actually unacceptable creepy behavior you called it such you real you said it was creepy you said that you were sorry that you are committing to doing better and and I believe you you know I have no reason not to believe you and none of this is to say that there isn't maybe deep hurt or harm from victims of of this stuff that isn't to say this at all, but here's the thing I can personally hold rehabilitative justice with acknowledging how much stuff like this hurts people. And so I know that a lot of people listening to this will hear me will hear me favor one or the other and it is not that is not the case at all. You know, I think that you VOSH probably fucked up and you admitted that you fucked up and you've and you have a have a said that you're going to do better and I'm great with that. I'm here for that because my only oh sorry. Because you know, here's the thing we all fuck up none of us would get out of this thing like I've done shit I'm deeply ashamed of you know?

Vaush 53:49
Yeah, no no yeah cuz that's because that I think that was the real like turning point like when I looked over the logs that I that I typed out like two years ago or whatever, I guess the main can see it wasn't just oh, this was bad because it was the main conceit was like if this was bad and I didn't know it What else have I done that shitty you know I and I think like I don't I don't think I have any like like hidden terrorist attacks that have that are going to come out and then you like anything that I've supplanted in my memory or any nonsense like that but but I think that I suppose I'm thankful for the humbling experience but it's not really about me. i There's it's very difficult for me to speak on the side and I'll just be frank because I have to strike a very fine line between expressing I think just the frustration of people who just lie about it online. Yeah, expressing like, like, like regret over my behavior which is sincere while also maintaining the kind of irreverent edge that I Yeah, so because that's that's not an act I am that person. It's very difficult for me to maintain I hope I'm doing my best but the only thing that I would say like in the at the end of the day is probably in its simplest form. You should never just take my word what took place cuz I'm obviously a biased party, the logs are linked underneath the video of the chat logs, if you want to look at that, if you're so inclined, they're mostly pretty boring. But overall, if you have a problem with me or my behavior I ask of you, and this is very sincere, okay? Email me at VOSH vidya@gmail.com. And let me know your problems. And let me know if there's something I can do that would make you feel like better or, or that you think would in some way, improve the situation, please, because because I because not all these are going to be good. I know somebody's gonna message saying, like, delete your account. So not everyone's going to have the best. But I'm here for it. I'm not antagonistic. When it comes to the subject, I just wish I could have good Convos about it, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 55:43
and this whole thing is representing something that I think is actually really interesting. I think this is like, a cultural a microcosm of a cultural moment or a larger Zeitgeist in our culture, which is, a lot of us, a lot of us make enormous mistakes sexually, like a lot of us do. And by mistakes, I mean, bordering on abuse, and or, if not outright abuse, we live in a culture of abuse in such a way that you know, it's it's what people are always going on, about in regards to rape, culture it in that, you know, we live in a culture where we take advantage of others, we watch people take advantage of others, and television and books and movies, and it's, it's absorbed, and we're becoming more aware of it, and none of us are exempt. Like, this touches all of us, I think what you're going through is this weird microcosm of what a lot of people are going through of realizing, Oh, shit, that thing I did five years ago or 10 years ago was not okay, and maybe realizing it for the first time and coming to terms with you probably hurt someone. And how do we deal with that? And I think that you're dealing it dealing with it the best way you know how and what I want to point out is to my listeners, who might be tempted to point an accusing finger, I just want to encourage a little bit of introspection, because we at this point, oh, sorry, sorry. Well, just because we all live in this culture. You know, we all live in these we all swim in these waters. And and yeah, I you know,

Vaush 57:17
sex is the sex is like the intersection of 1000 really strange social hangups that we have. I mean, I don't even necessarily disagree with Andrea Dworkin is perspective that all sex between men and women is rape, because women are, are socially raised to be deferential and submissive towards men in many cases. So the consent can never really be taken for granted. Now, obviously, treating every instance of heterosexual sex that like rape would be impractical. But, but I think there's a lot to be said from that take that we have to recognize that in a broader social sense, the the underpinnings of sexual violence are not just people being bad, or like horny or shitty or sexist or whatever. It's actually the root of a billion really complicated little micro conceptions that are difficult to pull apart, even with decades of experience, and for like hindsight to look over. And I want to end there's one specific thing and I think I have to be edgy and irreverent. Again, we are very fixated on sexual abuse as this shorthand for a person being bad, maybe and I'm speaking right now from the privileged position of somebody who has never been the victim of sexual abuse. I want to make that very clear from the upfront sexual abuse is bad. Obviously, the only reason by the way I say that is to virtue signal call me out on it. Okay. Obviously, I think it's bad. I'm not a fucking idiot. Yes, more. More importantly, and we see this in regards to like the, the Harvey Weinstein or we see this in regards to the Cavanaugh very often are impugn Minh of a person's moral character hinges very strongly on this on this weird assertion that sexual misconduct is magnitudes worse than then than any other form. So I would go so far, for example, to say that, you know, Sargon of Akkad I'm sure that oh, yeah, you can, I would go so far as to say that the social harm that's caused by his videos, the rhetoric he's disseminated that so on and so forth, that he's done is probably worse then I'm gonna make I'm gonna make up a number of 1000 10,000 individual acts of sexual assault. Yeah, I'll defend that claim any day. He's normalized like the pipeline from skeptic skepticism to fascism in like five years, he's probably brought on 10s of 1000s of people who will then themselves become reactionaries, abusers and otherwise pieces of shit. I would say that's massively worse. But I guarantee you if a scandal came out about him having say raped somebody, he would be thrown in much hotter shit than he ever would be for all the political advocacy. He's done. And it's strange to me, and I don't know and I'm being sincere when I say I don't know. I don't know if this is a product of like old world sexual values where we still think there's something weird and imputable and like special about sex, or if it has something to do with the left's sensitivity to sexual assault, because so many because it's a very gendered problem. I genuinely don't know. But it's really it's really weird to me how it just seems like an inconsistency. And I don't know if we go too far in one respect or not far enough than the other right, if that makes sense. So that was very much rambling.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:00:26
Yeah, I think it does. So basically, what you're saying is yes, sexual abuse is bad sexual abuse is wrong and it does cause abuse but we we can disproportionately focus on it on the left and and tolerate other forms of wrongdoing like disseminating mass propaganda out to millions of kids who will then turn into sexual predators or turn. Yeah, I've thought

Vaush 1:00:51
of a very good way of of disseminating my point and I'm much more sociologically consistent way. It's, it's observed in prison populations, that that very often the reason why pedophiles when admitted into the prison system, are assaulted and beaten, and murdered and other horrid things is because there is nothing in our society looked down upon more than somebody who had sexually abused as a child. So all the people in their themselves rapists, murderers, thieves, in many cases, especially those who join these hardcore prison gangs that engage in the violence, they can feel better about themselves engaging in violence against this one person who was beneath them. And I feel like and this is this reminds me of the rights obsession with pizza gate, the Podesta emails and such, the idea that like there's this grand conspiracy of like child rapists in the government. And they focus on this and they moralize about it really hard. They really care about this. It's sincere. I don't think they're lying. But it's, I think, a facade a bit of smoke bomb thrown to the ground, because they their moral fixation on this is a way of excusing. Oh, who cares what values I hold. In other respects. It doesn't matter if I'm wrong on this, this and this because I am the group of people trying to fight against child rape, and everyone who disagrees with me must implicitly be in favor of it. So an inconsistent attitude towards moralization and moral standards seems to me to be a gateway towards a lot of bad thought. I will just be interested in seeing people be a little bit more critical of why they think the things they do

Stephen Bradford Long 1:02:21
so What steps are you taking to do better in regards to my

Vaush 1:02:25
personal behavior? Yeah, I'm on I'm in fucking flirt jail. Okay. Listen, there are a ton of people, my community is fucking full of horny as fuck trans girls. Okay, I think it's probably because I'm one of the most aggressively pro trans people. The like in the lefty sphere. I mean, you obviously like contract. So I'm very aggressive about it. And they're and they're all they're all up in my DMs I'm in fucking common flirt jail. Okay. Now, mind you, while there is obviously a power dynamic between between like a fan and at a content creator. Unquestionably, I'm not of the opinion that it's impossible to engage in any kind of relation between those two things. Without it being abusive. I think that there needs to be a greater care towards responsibility. I think that saying that just all interaction between the two is outright bad is a very stupid moral shorthand, which doesn't really address the core issue. But with that being said, yeah, we've got we've got flirt JL and if I ever if I ever did feel like in the future, I'm very, I'm very slowly. So if I ever did feel like hooking up with a fan, it would be like, my partner, and I talk with them with weeks beforehand to make sure they don't have any weird, like, yeah, what's the term parasocial relationship thing going on, where they were the hits, like, oh, they really, really liked me, and they want to like, kill my girlfriend and become the next one or something like that. I don't want that sofa. So I'm trying. So in the shorthand, I'm trying to be a lot more responsible with how I engage with other people, not just as a content creator, but also like individually, because as time has gone on, I've grown more cognizant of the extent to which many people are just and pardon my French not doing great in the fucking head. And, and that includes me, and it can go a long way towards circumventing or undermining the extent to which I believe in interaction is healthy or consensual or safe. So I'm just trying to be a lot more critical self critical of those aspects. Sure.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:21
Yeah. And you know, you seem really open to criticism, you seem really open to correction, and I respect that and I am too and so if people are uncomfortable with me having VOSH on and want to give me some perspective about why I did why I made a mistake. Let me know, send me your angry emails, and I'll read them but you know, VOSH so far, and also, here's the thing I'm not opposed to like running you over with a truck if you come out to actually have not improved at all. Like, I'm not opposed to throwing you off a fucking cliff.

Vaush 1:04:59
You You think you think you can just throw those words out at me? You think if I do I want to die. Okay, I need you coming at me I have that truck running

Stephen Bradford Long 1:05:08
and you know and here's the thing that's I hear that and I respect that and I get that vibe from you that that you're trying to do better and I'm not afraid of saying you know, I had this douchebag on my show I thought I was right too but I wasn't because he's a fucking monster like I'm not afraid of eventually saying that if I have to right now I don't think I will because you've

Vaush 1:05:32
got my fun or you could kill me with breath I know the modern technology you know about phone bullets they go right to the receiver okay, right Yeah, right. I

Stephen Bradford Long 1:05:42
will. I will send I'll just send a demon right through the phone to go strangle you to go fuck you to death

Vaush 1:05:48
before Apollo please God. I thought I was gonna die of like heart cancer with how I please God last like that like that

Stephen Bradford Long 1:05:57
dildo demon and American Horror Story and hotel the dildo monster the gummy gooey like mid covered in glue dildo monster who comes and literally rapes gay guys to death.

Vaush 1:06:10
I can't I have never watched. I have never watched that. But I think I may have read several you are comics that were inspired specifically for that.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:06:17
You are you're not missing out, sir. But anyway, okay, all that to say we got on a tangent, but bringing it back, bringing it back. I am not opposed to throwing you off a cliff and just denouncing the shit out of you. If you turn out to have not improved if you turn out to have not grown, but at the same time, I believe that we all need a chance to grow. And I think that we all fuck up in some way. And I think you're growing and I think that's a good thing. Your your content is also great. You're doing amazing work. And also I'm not opposed to criticism if people want to email me Tell me why I made a mistake. I'm open to that. I want to hear it.

Vaush 1:06:57
Hey, listen, here's my here's my contemporary argument. Okay, there are a lot of fucking hot girls guys and then based slide into my DMs who I ignore all right, listen up Don't let my ignoring them be in favor okay? Because they're really fucking hot. I'm doing this I'm doing this for you. I'm doing this for me. I'm doing this for the world. Okay, I'm turning them the fuck away. So you better Alright, listen up. It was really hard. Okay Have some respect. Before before we before we before it because because I can sense things pointing down someone and yes, we have but a final like fun. Can I can I sort of get my mission statement in all of this, please do if I may. Please do um, I am I think in a lot of respects kind of a strange person. And I don't mean that as a as a point of virtue there is in some respect a virtue to normalcy. But there are certain things that we do that I think I do very well. There are not many rhetorician on the left who are like me, there are not very many people on the left, who can engage with arguments immediately on the fly, who can keep their cool in front of Nazis who can make other people angry. And that doesn't mean that I'm not like special. It's just a set of skills I developed while being more right leaning that I have since taken into my lefty state. And I understand that my edgy irreverence is going to make me unappealing to many and I'm totally okay with that. Because my goal isn't to satisfy you. My cure already left your fine. My goal and that's why I banned sectarianism in my server. And I don't argue with leftists I don't care what happens after you go to the left, as long as you don't turn into some weird class reductionist. tanky I'm totally cool with whatever you do after you go left. I care about the people in the middle. Those are the people i i pick up with my shovel and I send them to you so you can turn them into better leftists I just want to make them stop being fucking fascists.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:08:37
So you sent them to me to become you know, hand wringing milquetoast liberal. Yeah,

Vaush 1:08:41
absolutely. Very, very nice voices, by the way, and that's all I care about. All I care about is fighting fascism. In that way. I'll argue with anyone, I'll do anything. And I'll argue, in next to anyone, if Lauren southern decided to stop being a literal, white nationalist, and like a year from now came back, like, Hey, I'm on the left. Now gay rights. I don't give a fuck if she's grifting. I'll work with her. Because every single person that I can convert using her is another person who can vote Trump, another person who can't run out in the streets and fascist rallies another person who can't fucking talk under CNN news article, common sections, talking about gay people gross. I just don't care about anything else. That's all I care about. And if you want to criticize me, feel free to do so. But if you're going to get rid of me, make sure there's somebody to replace me.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:09:28
Absolutely. Yes, that final point. Exactly. Because, you know, and for threat of beating a dead horse, who else is converting Nazis and like, Yeah, you're a bit irreverent. You're a bit edgy. You're a bit over the top and I'm not I am not like you at all. I have a totally different style, but I'm not the one converting Nazis. You know, I'm not the one pulling people off the cliff of white nationalism and reactionary politics and and so I just look at the times we're in, I look at the stakes and I think think that people like you are unnecessary. So I really enjoy your work for people who want to check you out. Where can they find you?

Vaush 1:10:06
Yeah, well, first of all, I gotta say, I enjoyed speaking with you tremendously, and even through even through my phone $26 Phone earbuds. You have such a sonorous voice.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:10:16
So Oh, that's very sweet of you. You do too. You have a choice.

Vaush 1:10:20
Thank you. I have a website actually where I've consolidated everything. It's my last bunker in case YouTube gets me to Okay, that's my final front. But it's vosh.gg. So VA U S. h.gg. And everything else can be found from there and yeah, I stream like probably like five or six days a week, so I guess I couldn't help I see my folks on my chat sometime

Stephen Bradford Long 1:10:42
nonstop. If ever you want to see Ben Shapiro or we're Oh, who's that? Who's that piece of shit who goes to college? Prove me wrong? Steven Crowder. Steven Crowder fucking hates him. Yeah, he's like your arch nemesis. I fucking hate that guy to actually just while recording this. Or just before recording this. One of my friends on the right was like so. So do you like any right wing creators? Do you? I was like, Oh, well, I have a friend who's kind of on the right. And he's a YouTuber. And I was like, I'm a fan of him. I like him because I know him. I know. He's a good guy. But then he was like, but do you like Steven Crowder? I'm like, No,

Vaush 1:11:16
I'm not joking. And I can I can make this very openly. I think that Steven Crowder and Sargon of Akkad are two of the most dangerous or have done some of the most harm I put them well above Ben Shapiro. I agree. I put them above pretty much any right leaning demagogue, those two are horrific human beings.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:11:32
I 100%. Agree. Yeah. And actually, for listeners who are interested to hear more about these people, I did a whole podcast interview with Professor Ben Burgess, author of logic or No, give them an argument logic for the left, where he addresses a lot of the arguments coming from these figures. So if you want to actually be equipped with arguments for the left instead of just resort to disgust, then please check out Ben Burgess. His work. All right. Well, so VOSH this has been a lot of fun. I've really enjoyed it. Maybe we can do this again. I'd be delighted. I've had an enormous amount of fun. I'm so very glad. All right. Well, that is it for this show. The music as usual is by the jelly rocks and eleventy seven you can find their music on iTunes and Spotify wherever you listen to music. Also, be sure to go check out our other shows on the rock candy podcast network, we have eleventy life. We have Bible bash, we have bubble and squeak we have more shows coming on in the near future. So keep an eye out for that. Also, if you want to support the show, please go write a nice five star review on iTunes. It really helps our digital overlords pay attention to me and raise me up in the mire so that other listeners can find I'm doing it right now. Oh that's so sweet of you. That's the best. So definitely go give me five stars you can share it with your friends and if you are financially able please go support me on patreon I'm an impoverished millennial I am working myself to death I already work full time and I do this show so every little bit really really helps so all right well with that thanks so much for listening and we'll catch you next week peace

1:13:31
sprawl is click here for the next one to blame but he might ruin it as training fingers of microbes we've got a move down to the new seeds and I wonder as I wander Why was your tables in the microwave? Your tables as we weighed in the micro

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-Uncrucifying SexMASTERED6en8j

2022-10-11T08:06:16Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

Uncrucifying_SexMASTERED6en8j
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
satanists, porn, people, satanist, satanism, sexual, satanic, sexuality, feel, pornography, exists, research, sex, tst, treating, person, finding, values, identity, masturbating
SPEAKERS
Eric Sprinkle, Stephen Bradford Long, Matt Langston

Matt Langston 00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast. Hey guys, my name is Matt Langston. I am a music producer, a mix engineer and an avid unicorn enthusiast and I would like to invite you over to my podcast Eleventyseven live on eleventy life we get to talk to your favorite artists, producers and creators about what makes them tick. We take deep dives into where they get their juiciest inspirations from and how they keep from being cynical about all of it. We even get to pull back the curtain on my band eleventy seven and share some fun insider tips and tricks for our fellow bandmates and creators out there. So be sure to check out eleventy life right here on the rock candy Podcast Network and wherever you get your favorite shows.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:14
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one go to rock candy recordings.com. All right, first things first, the show is only possible with the support of my patrons. I have taken a considerable financial cut as has everyone else right now in this fucking plague that is destroying the economy. So I have taken a considerable cut, I am no longer teaching yoga. And I have reduced my hours and essential worker to reduce my exposure to the public. So that means that I am relying on my patrons now more than ever. But with that said, I also need you to understand that I need you to take care of yourself first and foremost and take care of your family and those you love. And so if you do not have the financial margin to give right now, don't worry, I completely understand. If you do after first and foremost taking care of your own needs. If you do have a little bit leftover, and you love this show, then do please consider becoming a patron by going to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long. For $1 A month or $5 a month you get extra content every week, my house of heretics podcast and the occasional meditation on a tarot card or a blog post. So if that interests you, then do please become a patron. I need your help massively. So this week, I have to thank Nicole, Adam, Bill, Jenny, Richard J. Halina, William and Lucy vor. Thank you so much. You are my personal lords and saviors. I couldn't do this without you. And for those of you who are unable to give, there are other ways to support this show. One of the best ways is to just subscribe. If you aren't subscribed already, go ahead and subscribe that tells our digital overlords that this show is worth recommending to others, it really helps this show reach more people. Also go ahead and leave a five star review. That really helps a lot, especially on Apple podcasts. And another way to support this show is to go to the satanic temple.tv. They are a sponsor of this show. And you can use my promo code at checkout sacred tension all caps, no space to get one month free. They have all kinds of interesting content. They have lectures, they have live streams, they have interviews, they have documentaries, they also have some kinky stuff on there as well if you're into that. And so they have all kinds of interesting content if you are interested in Satan or Satan adjacent or new religious movements, and kind of some transgressive media. We have a lot of it on the satanic temple.tv. So definitely go check that out. All right. Well, with all of that out of the way, I am delighted to welcome Eric Sprinkle to the show. Eric. Hello.

Eric Sprinkle 04:22
Hello. Thanks for having me.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:23
Yeah. So you have most of what I know about you is that you have a badass Twitter feed. So, but you are a tell us who you are. Tell us who you are and what you do.

Eric Sprinkle 04:37
Sure, well outside of Twitter. I am an Associate Professor of Clinical Psychology at Minnesota State University Mankato. I'm also the co director of the sexuality studies program there. So I teach a lot of sexual health classes to undergrads and grad students able to conduct all my research kind of focused on sexuality or what it has been Over the past year, the only time that I did deviate from just focusing on sexuality within my research was last year and my Satanism and stigma studies. And that's one thing that I feel very fortunate to be able to do at an institution like Minnesota State is that my research agenda is largely up to me. We're not expected I mean, university would like but we're not expected to attract like million dollar NIH grants to fund research. I'm not going to be able to get a million dollar grant to study Satanists in their in their sexuality and experiences a stigma. So maybe someday, though, maybe someday. Maybe I'm laying some groundwork that that'll show a need for this to be grant funded. But yeah, I'm able to conduct the kind of research that I want to and then the past year, year and a half, I've been focused on Satanists and Satanism.

Stephen Bradford Long 05:54
That's awesome. Now, are you yourself a Satanist?

Eric Sprinkle 05:58
I would say the best label for me would be de facto Satanists. Okay. LaVey mentioned that at some point, essentially, those who act as if they are a Satanists, but they may not have that label affixed to themselves, like self identified. Sure. Like on paper, everything like lines up like, oh, yeah, obviously, this person isn't Satanists. But that term itself. And this is interesting, because this is actually part of my research of looking at self identified Satanists and I've often wondered, would I even take my own survey if somebody was recruiting for a study that just was looking for self identified Satanists? And kind of on the fence with them? Certainly a satanic atheists. But the label Satanist, I don't know if it's just because the concept of religion, even a non theistic religion just doesn't have much of a function in my life. Sure. But yeah, I mean, I have no problem with being labeled by others as a Satanist. I absolutely don't take that as any type of offensive I view that as a badge of honor, usually when it is bestowed upon me like that. But I think de facto Satanists would be the closest in terms of self identifying

Stephen Bradford Long 07:13
Awesome, yeah. And I've seen you interacting a lot with people in the satanic community. I know Greg Stevens did an interview with you for his Patreon. Yeah. And I have really, really enjoyed a lot of the stuff you're doing both in Satanism, and in sexuality, and sexual health. And both of those I think, are really important. But I just have to ask, in regards to the sexual component, do you ever get like, really awkward conversations from strangers? Like, hey, I have a problem. You know, I feel really guilty about shoving hamsters into my butthole all the time. You know, this is a fetish I have, how do I deal with this? Like, do you get those conversations?

Eric Sprinkle 08:04
Yeah, all the time.

Stephen Bradford Long 08:05
Okay. And how do you deal with that?

Eric Sprinkle 08:09
I avoid the public as much as possible, even pre pandemic. So those kinds of like real life experiences are limited to like if I attend a wedding or something, I usually give this as an example, because it's a common occurrence, like a wedding reception, and at a table where I don't know too many people, especially if I just know, who's getting married. And then, you know, the obvious first question usually is, you know, what do you do? And I decided that moment of like, how much I want to disclose specifics about my job, if I don't feel like getting into anything, I'll just say, professor and leave it at that. But occasionally, I do say that I'm a professor of clinical psych and sexual health. And then one of two things happen either that shuts down the conversation pretty quickly, which is good, that's fine. If they're comfortable with that. We don't have to talk further and pretend to be friends. But the other side of that is it's definitely piques their interest. And then it's like, We're best friends or I'm their personal counselor, and then they start disclosing personal things. That's like, we just met like 30 seconds. Oh, no, this is really appropriate. And I, I try as much as I can to like empathize with that. Because clearly, if they're that eager to talk about their deepest sexual desires, or their sexual questions, or what their spouse may or may not be doing, obviously, they don't have too many outlets where they can talk about that. So I tried to, like empathize with Oh, clearly this person needs to talk about these things with somebody. But more recently, I get that a lot on social media as people just DM me and most times, I don't even look at my DMs but occasionally I do scroll through that. And it will just be like, hey, is this normal? Or is this like just a simple one sentence of like, Am I masturbating too much? And then other times people write like a thesis on their whole sexual history and want to know if they're okay. And I'm like, I don't know if this is like, when what world is this like appropriate to like, seek out the stranger and like start therapy? Feels like therapy.

Stephen Bradford Long 10:16
It's like the clinical psych equivalent of unsolicited dick pics.

Eric Sprinkle 10:20
Yes, absolutely. Okay now, either it's like hate messages in my DMs or the the equivalent of the unsolicited dick pic, which is, tell me I'm okay.

Stephen Bradford Long 10:32
So so what? So So does it all come down to tell me I'm okay. Like telling me I'm not some kind of freak? Is that generally what it comes down to?

Eric Sprinkle 10:41
It seems to be that way. Yeah, that people just have understandably a lot of like sexual ignorance and sexual anxiety about their desires. And they're just looking for some type of validation.

Stephen Bradford Long 10:53
Yeah, so let's talk about that the sexual ignorance thing. And you you have on your website, a section called on crucifying sex. What does that mean?

Eric Sprinkle 11:05
Well, for me, this was started as a writing project, I didn't know if it was going to be a blog. I'm turning it more into a book proposal now. And so I think I just have like two posts up there, which are like more introductory kind of stuff. And I stopped focusing more on how to structure and in book format. But for me, this is recognizing that for those who grew up in Christian households, which typically my target audience has, whether they're current atheists, or Satanists, or some kind of pagan, that they grew up in a Christian household, and even if they didn't, we live in a in a Christian culture, despite promises of separation of church and state, that doesn't exist, and we're inundated by Christian sexual values. And they Christianity has dictated what is and isn't okay, when it comes to sex. And it's completely arbitrary. It's archaic, and it's very oppressive. And so the whole purpose of UNHCR crucifying sex is recognizing that Christian sexual values aren't universal sexual values. And so we can create our own if we don't adhere to Christianity's rigid morality and value system that we can create our own value system. And specifically, I look at secular sexual values, which primarily focused around consent, sexual knowledge and bodily autonomy.

Stephen Bradford Long 12:32
How does the So so how do the negative and toxic aspects of Christian sexuality manifest themselves just as as someone who sees this on a regular basis and works with people who are working through this, what are the most common ways that toxic Christian sexuality manifests itself?

Eric Sprinkle 12:51
Well, the big three emotions would be sexual guilt, shame and embarrassment. So that's the feeling. And then whether that's about a person's identity or about their sexual expression, then then that can manifest in various different ways in terms of impeding sexual functioning and sexual satisfaction and pleasure. Maybe engaging and structuring relationships in a way that does not fit with one's like true identity or ideal sexual expression. So let's say compulsory, monogamy, alright, Christian sexual value, one man, one woman, monogamous, Married for life. Well, that's great for a lot of people, but it doesn't fit for everybody. And so if you feel that you have to fit into that mold in order to be accepted in order to be healthy or happy and satisfied, well, you're not going to be because that structure that compulsory, monogamy is just an arbitrary structure. It's not It's neither good nor bad. It's just one structure that exists that can fit for a lot of people. But if we try to force ourselves into that system in which it's incongruent, with actually our identities, or values or our expressions, then we're just going to set ourselves up for a life of dissatisfaction, displeasure, and a lot of kind of stigma management around recognizing that this isn't right for us, but I can't really talk about it because I don't want to be shamed by family, by friends, by my community, because I want to do something a little bit different, but that's going to be frowned upon.

Stephen Bradford Long 14:26
So you mentioned the three main emotions say those one more time, guilt, shame and embarrassment. So in this context, what's the difference between shame and guilt when it comes to sexuality? Yeah, the

Eric Sprinkle 14:39
big thing is like feeling guilt is more behavioral. And that I'd say like masturbation guilt, someone just masturbated. And that difference of experience and emotions and perceptions and attitudes, pre orgasm versus post orgasm, pre orgasm you're justifying it. Yes, I want to do this post egg orgasm, start and continue. feel some guilt or regret. So that's just feeling guilty about what you did. Because it doesn't align with what you wanted to do, largely because it's incongruent with some value system that you're trying to adhere to. Whereas shame is more an internalized, more kind of global experience internally of saying, I'm a bad person, because I masturbate. So not that it's a little bit more in depth and just guilt that said, Oh, I did a bad thing. Shame is I'm a bad person.

Stephen Bradford Long 15:33
So basically, what I'm okay. So, guilt is I did a bad thing, where as shame is, I am a bad person, because I did this thing or I am this thing I am gay, or I am trans or I am non monogamous, or what have you. So, so I can imagine that this is an epidemic, you know, people, people struggling because we do live with a lot of sexual shame, just culturally. And I feel like a lot of people are processing this, what in your experience, are the steps that it takes to to be free from that shame and guilt?

Eric Sprinkle 16:29
Yeah, so three things I generally look for as to help individuals kind of get to a point of on crucifying sex to kind of get past this Christian indoctrination of what is right and wrong relating to sexuality, to things that people can do on their own would just be exposed and trying to find sex positive secular, at least non sex negative Christian resources online, or books that, that profess sex positivity in a way that they haven't heard before. And so that's what I tried to do with my social media is just like, provide the counter arguments to what we're bombarded with every day of validating sexual identities and expressions, here's new ways to think about it, you do you, it's your body do as you please, that kind of stuff. So just exposing yourself to different educational resources and messages that do align with your value system. Also, finding communities in which you do feel validated, and affirmed and supported, whether online or in real life. So you just don't feel alone, because you're not alone. The most a typical and unconventional things that I've heard that are that people are into, there's a whole sub genre of pornography that caters just to that very unique interest. So there's, you're certainly not alone, as much as it may feel like you are at some times. So finding like minded individuals, those who share your values, your identities, your your expressions, and interests can be super valuable in getting that support and validation and affirmation that you need. And then beyond that, because that's just kind of self help kind of stuff. A lot of this is so deeply ingrained, and almost like on a cellular level, that therapy, or some type of counseling is warranted to really explore the negative emotions that have been the result of being bombarded with pretty oppressive Christian sexual values for their entire life.

Stephen Bradford Long 18:31
So you just mentioned pornography, and I feel like on the internet, and maybe this is less the case now. There's kind of this raging debate in a secular way, if I'm reading it correctly, over the the positives and negatives of pornography. So there's, for example, there's a lot of concern about the there's a lot of concern about pornography, impairing sexual function, and I'm not sure if I under fully understand that argument. So there's, there's still a lot of angst about pornography, Even in secular settings. And so and then you have groups like nofap. And, and you have these, these settings where, where guys especially are committing themselves to not watching pornography to, to not masturbating. And because they feel like it is impairing their function in some way, either sexually or more broadly. So what what's your take on that the pros and cons of, of pornography?

Eric Sprinkle 19:45
Yeah, so I think it's very easy to scapegoat porn for all of society society's ills. And that's been the case since since like the 60s and 70s or even before where we viewed any time I had a social problem and try to point our finger at some type of easy scapegoat. And a lot of times it is media, whether it's you know, heavy metal metal, like, you know, Black Sabbath, and Judas priests in the 70s, and 80s, being responsible for turning kids into the occult, or getting them into the occult or being responsible for suicide, absolute, Marilyn Manson in the late 90s, early 2000s, with school shootings. And now, too, with with pornography, of pointing our finger at that as to, that's why people are having erectile difficulties. That's why people aren't able to have in real life relationships, intimate relationships with others, that porn is impairing our abilities to do this, that we're becoming addicted to it, and that we're just being accustomed to what we see in pixels, and it doesn't generalize into the real world. And so we need to distance ourselves or outright just ban porn. That's 99% ideological, the research going back to the 70s on pornography, and up to today, the current porn researchers, it is such a complex and convoluted body of literature and the academic literature of porn effects. And it's marked by so many different methodological problems, primarily focusing on that this belief that all porn is the same. And it's going to impact all viewers in the same way. And so early research, and unfortunately, it still happens a little bit today, too, that I see in a study that looks at porn effects is that they're not even defining the type of porn that is under investigation. So more modern research that is sensitive to that is very much aware that there is a lot of diversity in the type of porn content. There's a lot of diversity among porn users. So we can't make these broad generalizations of all porn is bad, or all porn is good. For everybody that views it. Some studies have shown negative effects. Some suggest studies have shown positive effects. And a lot of studies have haven't shown like any effect on the individual just doesn't change their attitudes and behaviors in any way. So more from a clinical perspective, I think is where the conversations about porn use and its effects should take place. Because that's going to be on the individual level. So how is porn impacting this one person? Are and it's not necessarily like, porn is bad, or porn is good. It's the person's relationship with that, how are they interpreting what they are seeing? How is it impacting their life. And just because it is impacting their life doesn't necessarily mean that porn is necessarily in and of itself the culprit, someone can say that I'm out of control with my porn use, just because they watch porn once a month. And to them that feels like it's out of control, because they didn't want to do it. And that's where I really like Josh Grubbs, is research. He's a professor at Bowling Green State University. He's really focused on this idea of porn addiction or sex addiction as a mechanism of moral incongruence. And that those who identify as porn or sex addicts, they do so because their porn or sexual behavior is incongruent with their values, primarily Christian sexual values. And so if you have a value system that says you should not be looking at porn, but you do anyways, you're going to feel distress over that, and you maybe label yourself as an addict, or as somebody who watches porn and masturbating daily, but that's not in congruent with their sexual values, therefore, there's no distress, therefore, there's no impact in their life. They're not going to label themselves as an addict, and nor would they be assessed as one by a clinician.

Stephen Bradford Long 23:52
That's really fascinating. So basically, what I'm hearing you say is that whether someone's self diagnosis as an addict, or self identifies as an addict is kind of entirely dependent on their moral worldview. And so say, a Christian. You know, a conservative Christian will say, I have an addiction to porn, and he watches it, or they watch it or she watches it once a week, or once a month. So, so it's entirely about our own moral, moral outlook on life and an incongruence between those things.

Eric Sprinkle 24:31
Right. Um, that's when I used to do clinical work full time about that's been a decade now. We would see that a lot. I worked at the Center for Sexual Health at the University of Minnesota Medical School, and we would have a lot of patients coming in self identifying as a sex addict or they're calling their partner a sex addict. So treat me I need help or treat my partner they're a sex addicts. And so they're already coming into therapy with their own on diagnosis, so to speak, you meet them. Sex addiction isn't an actual diagnosis. But they were coming in with this idea that they have a problem. And this is what it's called. And now after assessing them, it really you uncover that they don't necessarily have an addiction. It's not even a compulsivity. It's just that they were using porn secretly, and they got caught. And now there's those emotions that are coming up the guilt, the shame, embarrassment, and then when you factor in other emotions that can exist within relationships of like insecurities, and boundary violations and violations of trust, then, yeah, you have a lot to treat there. But you're treating the violations of trust and the boundary violations, you're treating the guilt and the shame and the embarrassment. It's less about the porn. It's more about the secrecy that porn existed in, in that relationship. And so fast forward to more recent research with like Josh Grubbs, as I mentioned, that he's just providing some academic language and some theories as to what we were actually seeing clinically, like a decade ago, and it is about this moral in congruence between behaviors and values.

Stephen Bradford Long 26:07
So the topic of sex addiction, so for example, there are support groups, like there's a 12 step group called Sex Addicts Anonymous, I think, and there's, and so there's kind of this cultural acceptance and awareness of a sex addict. Right? Does that? Does? Does sex addiction exist? Is it even so? What is it? Is it real? Does it even exist? Or are they just people with high sex drives?

Eric Sprinkle 26:36
Right? So, with this debate, I always like to start, so it doesn't seem like I'm coming down on one side or the other, as if we ask the question more broadly of can sex sexual behavior become problematic for an individual? I think we all can agree that it can. Now the bait really gets into, well, what is causing it to be a problem? What do we call it when it becomes a problem? And then how do we treat it? Dr. Nicole Krauss, she's a neuroscientist, who does a lot of porn studies, research just released a blog post on Medium just yesterday or the day before on this topic, and why it's so important that language matters in the clinical world. Because if we call something a sex addiction, we're automatically viewing the behavior within an addiction model. And so that's going to guide treatment. And treatment for addictions would be focused on abstinence, and these 12 Step programs, right? There's harm reduction, stuff like that. And I certainly support all harm reduction, I mean, for substance related addictions, or substance related use disorders. But that's largely the the sex addict kind of model that sex is the problem, you need to learn how to, like, rein that in or even abstain from it. Whereas if we view it as a compulsion, or a symptom of an anxiety disorder or a symptom of ADHD, then we're not treating the sex, per se, we're treating the underlying thing that's driving the behavior. And so we're treating anxiety disorders, we're treating impulsive Impulse control disorders, or compulsive disorders, if we're viewing it as just moral incongruence. And we're labeling it as like, sexual behavior and congruence or you know, that's not a diagnosis, but whatever we want to call it, then that would guide the behavior, or the treatment rather, to focus more on how can we make behaviors and values more congruent? So let's explore your values are your values actually aligned with your ideal and authentic self? Sometimes it is, but a lot of times, it's just the value system that's placed on us. And we haven't thought critically about it. So we need to recalibrate our our values, since we are violating our values, so to speak, maybe that should tell us something that our value system really isn't part of our authentic self anymore. And then that becomes more of like a sub clinical kind of treatment, because there's no diagnosis actually. And especially if it's a relational issue where one partner doesn't like porn, the other does, then that says couples counseling is not diagnostic.

Stephen Bradford Long 29:14
Yeah, that makes complete sense. And so it really has to be taken at like a person by person basis.

Eric Sprinkle 29:22
I think so I think you know, we do the best we can with research in this area. But for me, the the applied aspect of the research, the implications always has to go down to the individual level, because we can't make these, these sweeping generalizations of this is what sex addiction is, this is how it impacts everybody who may be labeled as that it really comes down to this manifests in so many different ways that I've seen clinically, that we need to look at it on an individual level to see what's the mechanism behind why they may be struggling with their sexuality or their sexual behavior, and then go from there.

Stephen Bradford Long 30:00
So this might be kind of beyond the scope of, of your research and expertise, but I'm really fascinated by conspiracy theories and how they often play on fears of sexual abuse, especially against children. And, and I'm just curious what your take is on that, you know, as someone who studies sex and sexuality, you know, I think of Q anon and and frazzle drip and pizza gate and like the fear of the sexual terror, you know, it's kind of this, this, this, this painting of sexual monsters as the ultimate degeneracy. And that often includes pedophilia and cannibalism, and I don't know, what's your take on that? What are your thoughts? I

Eric Sprinkle 30:50
mean, I get sucked into these kind of conspiracy theories. Because I can easily be a poster child for them. I mean, with the satanic imagery, and Xavier. Yeah, so it's occasionally I'll see the q&a and people will kind of put their crosshairs in my direction. They're trying to put little pieces together like Dude, it's like, all in my bio, of like, I'm not hiding anything. Yes, I'm a sex educator of objects autonomous in my bio, like, there's no secret society going on.

Stephen Bradford Long 31:21
There's they're starting to. They're starting to write articles about me now. And yeah, thank you. Yeah. And thank you so much. i It's an honor, I guess. And it's so hilarious. And you know, I released an article and a podcast about the satanic abortion ritual that TST just did. And, and the response has just been so hilarious, like, they're finally admitting that they sacrificed. They're actually admitting it now. Anyway, go on.

Eric Sprinkle 31:50
Well, yeah, I mean, that's the funny thing, like, right, because I saw some criticism of TST is abortion ritual of like, oh, this is just going to fuel the Satanic Panic and like, people who are that opposed to abortion think it's a satanic right, anyways? And they think say, Yes, ie just non Christians or Christians who aren't their type of Christians are engaging in cannibalism and child sacrifice and satanic worship. So there's, there's nothing that we can do on the atheist and Satanists side that's going to, you know, change the minds of those kind of radicals on the right, so we might as well do what we need to do. That's, that's best and most authentic for us, because they're gonna freak out regardless. But kind of back to this, the paranoia of child sex abuse, you know, and like tying into like child sex trafficking to is that, obviously, Child Sexual Abuse exists, and, but how they are viewing it, in terms of how abuse occurs, is so off point. And same thing with the trafficking thinking that just your run of the mill, suburban family, going to Whole Foods and traffickers are snatching up your children, when they distract you by like putting a zip tie on the side mirror of your car, you're distracted by that they steal your children and sell them into child sex. Doesn't happen, right? What happens is like what are the actual risk factors of child sexual exploitation, and at least with the within the trafficking discourse, its poverty, poverty is going to be a huge predictor of exploitation of children and adults, as well. And we all know too that who's going to be the most likely person to perpetrate child sexual abuse against a child, it would be someone within their family, or at least someone that they know pretty well. And there's some trust there, right? It's not this stranger other right, so we're still falling into these traps of like stranger danger, the scary guy in the alley, the scary guy in the van, right, who are going around abducting children, there are those like psychopaths or status, whatever you want to call them that are out there. But they are such such a minority, that the focus should be on actually the root causes of child sex abuse and what's happening within the homes. So that's always so interesting to me when you have like a q&a and supporter he's so invested and trying to put all these pieces together this deep state, you know, conspiracy of child sex abuse be like, Why don't you do that at your next family gathering your next family reunion during the holidays, because more than likely, there's a, you know, a sexual offender within that group, as opposed to trying to find some Soros funded kind of pedophile that's existing out there in the elite, deep state. And so that's just kind of what irks me so much is that it's a diversion much like kind of focusing so much on negative porn effects, like let's look at what's actually going on here. And so at the child sex abuse, conspiracies within Q anon focus on child sex abuse where that actually happens. It's happening in your home. It's not happening that simply Deep State cover up.

Stephen Bradford Long 35:15
Yeah. So is there some kind of I don't mean to over psychoanalyze, but but kind of a level of projection. Like, I definitely feel like the Satanic Panic of the 80s. And 90s was kind of a projection, you know, like, put let's, let's project the evil out there in a way that we don't have to look at the evil in our own homes. And I know that I'm using evil in kind of any centralizing way, the abuse, the abuse that is happening in our own homes and our own communities, in our own churches in the Catholic Church, in our own parishes in our own congregations. Is there an element do you feel of that here? Like it's always so much more comfortable to to pray to confront an imaginary evil rather than confront real life abuse, which happens among people we know and trust, right?

Eric Sprinkle 36:17
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, if it's not project projection, and certainly denialism Yeah, that you're in denial that this can occur within your own house that this occurs, that the perpetrators are people that you know, that you trust, that would never think, you know, the cliche interview after a serial killer gets arrested, and they interview the neighbor of like, I had no idea they were just so quiet, right. So just, you know, we can't necessarily pick up all signs of abusive behavior, and others, but we have to at least acknowledge that that possibility exists. And that possibility is much more probable than this conspiracy theory of you trying to connect all these dots that don't necessarily connect in some kind of deep state Cobble. Yeah. And so I think it is just the challenge of one being uncomfortable with sexuality to have these conversations openly and honestly, that it has to be part of like this grand, like satanic scheme for us to even like begin to start talking about sexuality, as opposed to sit down with, you know, your brother, if you have children, and your brother, who's you know, your children's uncle is being inappropriate around your children to the point where you have to start, like policing your children's behavior, or what they're wearing, because Uncle Steve's coming over, right? Well, let's have a conversation with Uncle Steve. He's the problem, not what your children are doing or what they're wearing. And so we need to confront our own relatives, when we're seeing problematic and inappropriate behaviors, even if it's just comments that this is unacceptable, that we have to recognize that this exists when within our families, and we need to be able to talk about it, we need to be able to confront it. And we just largely lack the skills to be able to do that, because I'm not denying that that is isn't difficult. But I think it's much easier to think that the only type of child abuse that exists in the world is from these elaborate kind of conspiracies.

Stephen Bradford Long 38:17
And it's so much scarier and so much harder. And if I you know, I think it feels out of control for people. And so I sometimes wonder if, if these conspiracy theories are really an attempt to regain a sense of control over over a perceived threat? You know,

Eric Sprinkle 38:34
yeah, I could see that I could also see that kind of, in a world view of like a just world a fair world, that in order for injustice is to occur, there has to be something very grand and scale to allow that to have happened, right. So I view this too, with like, 911 conspiracies, right, that the it was all planned out by our government, that there are bombs in the buildings to bring down those, you know, the World Trade Center, things like that. And I think that's easy to get into kind of that type of thinking. Because the alternative is we have this massive attack, right in the United States, one that we haven't seen before to this scale, and it was carried out just by 19 random people with box cutters, like there has to be something bigger here to make sense out of this amount of destruction. It can't be that simple of an explanation. So similarly, looking at child sex abuse, it can't be as simple as just a relative doing this. This is such a horrific behavior and a horrific crime that it has its roots have to be like spread out throughout the the elite cobble who's controlling all of this. That's the only way to kind of make sense out of it to just not justify it but understand how quote unquote evil exists, that it has to be from this evil operation, and not just simply that one person He doesn't know how to behave appropriately.

Stephen Bradford Long 40:02
That's really interesting. So I'd like to pivot to your work on Satanism. So So what was the research that you were conducting on on Satanists?

Eric Sprinkle 40:16
Yeah. So last year, we did a study that looked at self identified satanist experiences with stigma and stigma management, and their mental health. And not necessarily a follow up study. But a separate study from that that's still ongoing for a couple more weeks now is looking at Satanism and sexuality and kind of looking at moral incongruence or congruence that we were talking about earlier of what are Satanic sexual values, or at least values among specific or individual Satanists? And how does that line up with their actual sexual attitudes and behaviors, expecting much more moral congruence within Satanists? And what we see among Christians? So those that first study on Satanism and stigma, I made those two kind of brief overview lecture videos for tst. TV, just kind of showing that like the data that we have on atheists, that Satanists do experience, stigma and discrimination, they worry about being treated differently because of their identity as a Satanist. And what kind of impact does that have on their mental health? Primarily, we're focusing on measuring depression, and depressive symptoms, and more of an applied kind of therapeutic way of is it important for a Satanist? Who is seeking therapy, for whatever reason, that the therapist also be a Satanist, that they've had experience working with other Satanists patience, or they're at least have some cultural humility when working with Satanists and not making assumptions.

Stephen Bradford Long 41:54
What were your findings with that?

Eric Sprinkle 41:57
With a stigma studies, we were finding similar to the atheist research that the more a person identifies as a Satanists, the more stigma management that they essentially have to engage in that they are worried about how others are going to be treating them. We did find that being low in kind of satanic camaraderie. So we measured strength of sexual Satanists identity in three ways, one, we just looked at, like how central is being a Satanist into your overall sense of self. And we looked at kind of intergroup relations of like, how much do you feel like other Satanists are kind of, quote unquote, your people? So feeling kind of that camaraderie? And then we also looked at in group an effect, meaning, how comfortable are you with the fact that you are a Satanist? And so we found not surprisingly, when you think about it, but in the within the body of literature within counseling, this is a pretty interesting finding, that those who have strong in-group ties so they feel like they found kind of like, quote, their people within Satanism, because they themselves are a Satanists that predicts lower depressive symptoms than those who feel less close or less connected. And why that's such an interesting finding. I mean, obviously, that makes that makes sense. Like that makes intuitive sense. So you had this community that could be a protective factor against depressive symptoms. But when we look at how therapists could potentially treat Satanists, as patients in a negative way, in a biased way, that if a therapist learns that their patient is a Satanist, and also is presenting with depression in therapy, their bias may say, like, oh, well, you're depressed because you're involved in Satanism, or your Satanism is causing you to be depressed or your depression is causing you to be a Satanist, something like that. And so the treatment goal would then don't be a Satanist anymore, you need to like disaffiliate, because this is unhealthy for you. Our research shows just quite the opposite, that if you have a sickness patient who's depressed, I would want to explore Well, what's your connections with other Satanists? Kind of like what I was saying earlier about combating sex negativity in our culture, of finding like minded individuals, finding your community to meet those social needs to get support, support and validation and affirmation. And so this approach would have therapists then, recognizing that Satanism and involvement within a satanic community could actually help their depressive symptoms to alleviate them, as opposed to like, No, you need to get rid of this because this is inherently unhealthy for you.

Stephen Bradford Long 44:50
That's fascinating. Because what I hear in that is what I hear implicit in that is the depth to which Satanism can be part of someone's identity in a way that I feel like maybe a lot of people and therapists wouldn't appreciate, because it's like, oh, this is this is just an arbitrary thing that you chose. You know, it's kind of tied up in the why Satan question? Well, why did he choose Satan as if it were a as if it were an arbitrary choice as if it didn't come with this whole personal history? Of resonating with that almost like it was chosen for you? Is what it feels like, for me at least. And so I don't know, it's it's interesting to hear that. Because because it for me that confirms no, this isn't arbitrary. This is something very deep for a lot of people.

Eric Sprinkle 45:53
Yeah, absolutely. It's not arbitrary. It's certainly not trivial. You know, I was intentional as a researcher not to be kind of a satanic gatekeeper of who's like a true satanist that can take my study, or survey and who can't I just pointed out or just made the criteria simple of do identify as a sickness and are you 18 or over, and then you can take it. So more than likely, given the diversity within satanist identities. We haven't looked closely at this at this part of the data yet, but more likely, there's going to be individuals in there who are low on strength of satanist identity. So it's not as central to their their core sense of self, it may just be reactionary. In that they use it just kind of for like shock value, or if it's more of just kind of an aesthetic more for observing eyes as opposed to their authentic self. I'm sure the those individuals exist. But I'm guessing the vast majority of our sample that Satanism is more of a core component of who they are. And it's not just a showy, superficial kind of component like it exists, even if, and for a lot of our participants. It exists even if they're not telling anybody that they are a Satanists.

Stephen Bradford Long 47:18
Yeah, they're Satanists, even if they are alone in their basement with their cat. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's, that's really interesting, because, you know, I feel like I people, people are always like, so why didn't you just become a Buddhist? Why didn't you just become a Unitarian Universalist? Or, or, you know, and I, and there's a certain and what I tell them as you're going about this way more logically than I am, like, you're you're going about, you know, it's like if I wanted to, to very, like deliberately choose my religious identity to be to have the broadest appeal. I would be the I would be a milk toast Episcopalian. You know? It, it doesn't. And so it's like, this isn't something that I rationally chose. It's a love affair. You know, GK Chesterton talks about he, GK Chesterton says, Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair. And, and I feel like my religion is all love affair. And so I'm in this, this awkward position of just constantly trying to articulate the way it's like, no, this wasn't a con, or it this wasn't a a rational choice. On my part, it was something that just fell into my life. It is like, Yes, this is me. This is this is who I am. This is who I am. This is who I've always been, and then having to explain to people, no, this isn't arbitrary. And, and I feel like what I'm hearing in your research is that it kind of confirms that in a way.

Eric Sprinkle 49:07
It does. And research prior to mind to confirms that as well that most Satanists did grow up in Christian households. And they weren't, like proselytized or recruited into Satanism. They found it, they discovered it, and it fit. Yes, the goodness of fit of just stumbling upon it, whether you read the Satanic Bible, and in high school or saw something online. Now with TST that'd be like, Oh, this is me. Right? And then the, the conscious part of that is, how much do I want to like lean into this and kind of have this as part of my identity versus not and even if you don't, that it's still who you are, and kind of that kind of making a full circle here to my Introduction of like a de facto Satanists, like on paper, seeing either like Church of Satan or TST, or independent Satanists groups like, yeah, that fits me, me living authentically is living satanically, so to speak, I don't try to do that. I don't wake up in the morning, how can I be a good Satanist? today? It's just me, how can I be authentic? And that's just labeled as being satanic. So the conscious decision for me in this case would be how, how important is that label? For my core sense of self, it doesn't change my behavior doesn't change my attitudes, perceptions, anything like that. It's just an identity at that point, and how important is that identity? For me,

Stephen Bradford Long 50:47
that's really interesting. And it makes me think of my history and Christianity, because I feel like, you know, I, so I'm a preacher's kid, both of my parents are preachers actually. And then, you know, I've kind of made a rule that I don't talk about my family on the internet, because they didn't sign up to be talked about. So I don't so I, you know, I respect their boundaries, but and then I kind of grew up in the Christian world, and I was very much part of the push for, for accepting home, homosexuality and trans people in the church, in the Anglican Church, and the Catholic Church, you know, I was writing quite a bit about that I was kind of an activist when it comes to that, but But looking back, I realized, and maybe this is just a post hoc, you know, explanation for, for a lot of the discomfort I felt. There was, there was always just this, this struggle of feeling like Chris, Christianity was who I was, you know, there, there was always this struggle with is, is Christ, the symbol that, aesthetically, philosophically, culturally, represents who I am. And there was always kind of a little gap there, there was always kind of this disconnect. And this, this management of this personal management of fitting myself into that, right, you know, and I know people who have been Christians forever, and it is who they are. But But realizing, looking back that I was just always struggling with Christianity being who I was. And then Satanism came along, and I was like, this, is it. This, this is where I am, this is who I've always been. Yeah, so I'm totally relating to, I'm totally relating to everything that you're saying. One, one final question that I'm interested in hearing, kind of going back to the back back to the study of sexuality. What got you into that in the first place? What made you interested in, in studying human sexuality?

Eric Sprinkle 53:09
Um, I think the first, the first thing that I can kind of point to as yes, this is, this is like, my career trajectory now, was just an undergraduate class, and human sexuality. It was just I was a psych major, it was an elective. And this was at University of Cincinnati. And it was one of the most popular classes as the sexual health classes tend to tend to be. So isn't it like a large lecture halls like 500 other students, and kind of the arrogance kind of going into that class as however old I was, like 19, or 20? At the time of yeah, this was just going to be an easy a right, it's sacks, how much is there to know, we had those couple of lectures in high school. So what more is there, and just realizing there, that there is a lot more there. And everything that I was taught in high school or believed or tried to make sense out of on my own, just observing the sexual world was largely inaccurate, or just an outright like, myth or lie. And so recognizing it just kind of opened my eyes about, like, the diversity of sexuality and everything that we think we know, but we don't. I just looked at that professor, unlike I need to have this job too. And originally, I was interested in doing it just clinically, not an academia and which I did pursue for a little bit and I am still a licensed psychologist and sex therapist. I just don't practice. So academia is a better fit for me. But yeah, that was kind of the the origin story of it. About 20 years ago, now just taking a undergraduate sexuality class and realizing how much we don't No as a culture, and how much I want that to change.

Stephen Bradford Long 55:03
Very cool. Yeah, that's awesome. And well, I think that we're coming to the end of our time, but this has been an awesome conversation and you're welcome back anytime.

Eric Sprinkle 55:12
I appreciate that. Yeah, I've

Stephen Bradford Long 55:13
had fun. Yeah. So for people who want to find your work, where can they do that?

Eric Sprinkle 55:18
For the public, I'm mainly on social media, Twitter and Instagram at Dr. Sprinkle. I do have a website, Dr. sprinkle.com. That just really kind of sits there. It's more of a placeholder. I kind of forget to have it. So primarily, social media. And then also one thing that I will mention just as another website plug that I'm involved in is the secular therapy project. If you if you are a Satanist but have secular values and would want a secular therapist, I'm the director for that organizations and nonprofit. They have an online directory at secular therapy.org where you can find secular therapists in your area.

Stephen Bradford Long 55:58
That's fantastic. Awesome. All right. Well, that is it for this show. As always, the music is by the jelly rocks and 11 D seven you can find them on iTunes Spotify or wherever you listen to music The artwork is by Rama Krishna Das and this show is made possible by patrons to join their number go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long and there will be a link in the show notes. This show is written produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long and as a production of rock candy and as always Hail Satan and thanks for listening

56:52
laugh and we cry too. We run out of booze The same is true. Time sighs life is turning into work rinse, repeat. untangle what we've learned in

57:41
wedding rings in doubt dots you. The same way and I feel you cuz you feel like oh, you've been my truth. Every plan ever made us change?

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-UFO disclosure FINAL990y1

2022-10-11T08:06:15Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

UFO_disclosure_FINAL990y1
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, pentagon, ufos, robert bigelow, ufo, studying, evidence, bigelow aerospace, harry reid, bigelow, program, aliens, story, report, marco rubio, bit, faa, money, talking, pilots
SPEAKERS
Mick West, Stephen Bradford Long

00:00
Hey, I'm Andrew. And I'm John. Our show magnified pod is the only podcast that discusses culture, religion, politics, and deep dives into the discographies of the bands that shaped a generation of 90s youth group kids check out magnified pod on the rock candy Podcast Network and wherever you get your podcasts.

Stephen Bradford Long 00:47
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com. In this episode, I speak with the gentleman sceptic Mick West about the topic of UFO disclosure, we discussed the press coverage of UFOs the weird inner workings of the Pentagon UFO program and whether or not there is good evidence to support the claim that we are in the presence of mysterious on earthly technology. And by the way, the UAP report that we discuss in the episode is now available. And I recommend that everyone go read it, you can find the link to it in the show notes. Mick West is a video game programmer turned skeptic and debunker He is the author of escaping the rabbit hole. He is a YouTuber podcaster and the founder of meta bunk.org. But before we get to the conversation, I have to thank my patrons. My patrons are my personal lords and saviors. And I truly could not do this without them. This show takes an enormous amount of work from scheduling interviews all the way to the final product. And if you want to support my show, the best way to do that is to go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long and for just a few dollars every month you get content each week. Finally, eleventy seven who does the music for this show has a new single out it's called a wild, I'm going to close the show with the new single. And if you like the single, please go follow eleventy seven, wherever you listen to music be at Spotify or Apple music or whatever that really, really, really helps my friend who is the maestro for this show. All right. With all of that finally out of the way, I am delighted to bring you my conversation with Mick West. Mick West. Welcome back to the show.

Mick West 02:59
Thank you. Great to be back.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:00
Yeah, so we talked, I think back in 2019. I can't exactly remember when it's been a few years, a couple of years. And when we talked UFOs were in the news. They were you know, it was kind of coming back into the mainstream. The New York Times was doing articles about mysterious things in the sky. And then this guy named Lou Elizondo broke into the public arena and To The Stars Academy became a thing. So things were pretty wild. Things have only gotten Wilder.

Mick West 03:44
Yes, things have certainly have. It's very interesting. What's happened over the last few years. It's been quite the upward trajectory. Yeah, in a way, it kind of feels like, like a natural progression in some senses. Because we did have that initial. The story in The New York Times was the thing that I think allowed it to break through into the mainstream, you have the New York Times doing a story on something, it kind of gives it a bit of gravitas, and people built upon that. And the people who were kind of behind that New York Times story. We're continuing to do to do similar things lately, Keegan, the one of the writers, has continued to write more stories as as Ralph Blumenthal, one of the other writers, and the people leaking the information to them. The Chris melanin and the will is on there. I've continued to do similar things over the years. And here we are.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:42
Here we are for people who have no idea what we're talking about. Can you describe what that article was that kind of shared this into the mainstream? Yeah,

Mick West 04:54
the article was called glowing auras on black money. And it was kind of a about two things, really, it was about the existence of a pentagon program that studied UFOs. Essentially, at least this is the claim. And it was also about a couple of videos that were released around the same time essentially given to the New York Times by some people who were involved with that program. But now we then no longer were. So this this black money refers to a specific amount of money $22 million, which back in 2008, was kind of arranged by Senator Harry Reid, who I think then may have been the House Majority lead Democrat. I'm not entirely sure. Was it the Senate? His I can't remember now. But he big politician Harry Reid, everybody knows Harry Reid, now retired. And he he and a couple of other senators, I believe here, got the this this thing called a tip on the books. Basically, it's just like a small earmark in the Pentagon budget, $22 million out of a $600 billion budget was earmarked for this this one program, which was ostensibly, this is the interesting thing, it wasn't actually about studying UFOs, the the public facing description of this program was to study advanced aerospace concepts, which meant basically trying to figure out where we will, we would be in 1020 30 years regarding, like things like, like, like jet planes and forms of propulsion and things like that. So

Stephen Bradford Long 06:44
so just to pause you right there. So the premise of a tip, you know, like the big news, like the Pentagon has this top secret program, which is studying UFOs. That is a false premise.

Mick West 06:58
Well, it depends on who you ask, okay. The, the original tender for the program, the thing they put out there to get get bids on the contract. It doesn't say anything about studying UFOs or as they call them, UAPs. It just says it will be looking into these advanced aerospace concepts, but were told that there was a secret agenda behind this that people would would know when they actually got the project, but it's very strange how it came about, I guess isn't that strange? But you know, Harry Reid, got the earmark, and then he was put out to tender. And the only person who applied for the project was Harry Reid's friend, Robert Bigelow, who lives near him in in Nevada, and they got the project,

Stephen Bradford Long 07:49
a big lousiest billionaire. Like yeah, and

Mick West 07:53
yes, billionaire. Yes. Yep. It's very interesting, like, and this this, this is something that resonates throughout the entire story. We've got this guy, Robert Bigelow rich guy is worth like $600 million, or something like that. And he got he made his money. I think it was in a hotel chain or a motel chain. Yeah, motels. And then he kind of cashed in a bunch of that and started this Bigelow Aerospace. And he's basically said that he, he started to make money, with the aim of doing this, this space focus thing. And there's this study of UFOs and the paranormal, he's done a bunch of other stuff. He bought Skinwalker Ranch, which people may have seen on TV and in various, various, like documentary films about this thing, which is this, this ranch in Utah, which is nothing special about it, it's just this barren patch of land and rocks. But people think that it's haunted or that it has some kind of transdimensional gateway that attracts UFOs, or the UFO has come out of and sometimes like werewolves coming out of it and things like that. And so Bigelow bought this and kind of investigated it and and does interesting connections to government programs and things like that, where people who work as government contractors ended up you're working at a Skinwalker Ranch. There's this whole kind of murky past to this is where we are now if you go back far enough, you'll find this stuff out and it all kind of goes back to Robert Bigelow.

Stephen Bradford Long 09:36
So it's like the not quite invisible college who who is the one who coined the phrase the invisible college was that

Mick West 09:44
I believe it was Jack valet?

Stephen Bradford Long 09:46
Yes Jack valet. So this is in the whole premise of the invisible college is that there's like this, this invisible network of scientists and and government people studying this thing. A this alien phenomenon or this UFO phenomenon. And so this is like the not quite invisible college. It's like Bigelow, and a lot of you know, this, this strange kind of network of really powerful people. Fascinated by this subject. Yeah. And yeah, yeah, go on.

Mick West 10:23
Oh, I was gonna say there are, you said very powerful people. But lots of powerful people have an interest in the subject but they're not really super involved in it I think the highest ranking person you could get is probably Harry Reid. And Harry Reid is actually very careful to stay away from the more esoteric aspects of it. Like he, he's quite explicit in stating that he is on the side of science and not on the side of trying to prove it's aliens. But I think that perhaps is something of a politician in him, he knows it's not a very, very popular position for the mainstream to be an alien believer, so he stays away from that. But you get lots of other people like, say John Podesta, who was Hillary Clinton's Chief of Staff, and even Hillary Clinton herself, like saying things like, Wouldn't it be interesting to find out, and now even Barack Obama says things, but it doesn't mean Barack Obama is like interested in Aliens, it just means he has something of an inch as knowledge of the situation that people are saying that there are things that we can't identify. And it'd be great if we could identify that. So I think there's a lot of like you say, it's this semi invisible College, and you don't really know exactly what's going on, or the depths of it. And I think it kind of actually gives an illusion that there's actually a lot more to it. Yes, than there actually is.

Stephen Bradford Long 11:45
I 100% agree with that. And what I have found really frustrating as I have had a passing interest in this subject for years is just how little there is beneath the top of this iceberg. You know, like, there's this sense of with the UFO subject, that it's like, okay, you see the top of the iceberg and it's super intriguing, and you know, there, but then you try to drill down a bit deeper, or you try to see what's beneath it. It's like the the advertisement, the the, what you are led to believe is that there is this really deep underground truth and like this network of things to be revealed beneath it. And what I've consistently found is that there just isn't much there, beneath the tip of the iceberg. Does that make sense? Like like that I've that I've kind of struggled with actually because I really want there to be something like I really want there to be more to this thing. But then I go down a bit deeper and the iceberg just isn't there. It's just water. Yeah.

Mick West 12:57
There's a lot of promise and a lot of people making promises exactly and people saying that there is data and that there is evidence for essentially alien visitors. If you look at what say Lou Elizondo is talking about now Lou Elizondo for to put this in the context of what we were talking earlier, is the guy who is said to be the head of this program, the black money program that was was mentioned in the New York Times article, program called a tip, which was started by Harry Reid and given to his friend, Rob Bigelow, was kind of run or coordinated or managed by this guy, Lou Elizondo, who is a guy from the intelligence service, who works in the Pentagon. And he seems during the course of his tenure, that became strongly convinced that there was a case for for the existence of aliens, essentially, at the start, he was a little bit more cagey about saying this, but now he says quite explicitly, that he thinks there's only an infinitesimal chance that it is some kind of conventional human technology, like it's the Russian drones, or Chinese drones, or American technology or anything like he thinks that's basically there's hardly any chance of that being true. And he thinks it's likely something that's extra terrestrial, or he goes on to say, ultra terrestrial or extra dimensional, he actually goes and suggests that there are things like you quantum dimensions and things like that, that perhaps these are beings from another dimension, and we've got to study quantum physics, and it's all very, very woowoo. It's very, pseudo scientifical and not really based on on evidence at all. It's kind of surprising that he eventually came to this position, but this is where we are now. And I think a lot of people who follow the story in the mainstream media don't actually realize to the degree to which These people actually kind of go beyond science and positing things that are really quite extreme, like things from another dimension or even, in some cases, things like time travelers. They use the term Ultra terrestrial like it's it's not huge. It's Hugh O'Neill.

Stephen Bradford Long 15:16
That's John keells. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's

Mick West 15:18
not these humans, it's some other type of humans that either perhaps they are humans that left the planet and came back, or perhaps their time traveling humans, or perhaps they're humans who have been living deep underground for a long time. Or perhaps they're terrestrial, but not human, like some kind of known human race that's living under the oceans. You know, these are things that are very speculative and completely without evidence and really aren't necessary as explanations for for what we're seeing, which are just still essentially, basically just mysterious lights in the sky and strange returns on radar. We don't really have any really great evidence of these supposedly, amazing craft. So the leap that people are making to extra dimensional beings is really quite ridiculous.

Stephen Bradford Long 16:07
Yeah, I agree with that. And you know, what you were just saying about, like the mainline news, not, and I mean, really prestigious outlets, like the New York Times, not seeming to grasp the pseudo science in this situation. And I guess, I guess my question is why the credulousness? Like why the that is not something that I would expect from an outlet like the New York Times, like they have fact checkers, they have they presumably have a you know, I don't know how any of that shit works. But I assume that they have like filters that a story has to go through in order to be published. And so why the credulousness from presumably very professional and mainline and prestigious outlets that have that has just given wings to this entire story. Like if it weren't for the New York Times, and then several other outlets, like really shining a spotlight and lending credence, this story wouldn't. I don't know if it would be a story. And so like, why the credulousness?

Mick West 17:26
I think there's there's a number of reasons. The main one, I think, is the what they wrote about, in the first story glowing or isn't black money, even though it contained a number of factual inaccuracies. There were difficult factual, factual inaccuracies to check. But a lot of it was was actually factual. So they're talking about this this aid program, which is a real thing. And that's actually a real story, the fact that there was a $22 million spending on this, this program is actually something that can be verified, did actually happen, and the money was spent. The fact that these videos exist is also true. And they they show things that you aren't directly explained, and they were not explained at the time, and they're still not fully explained. Now, even though they're they turned out to be less interesting than they appeared at the time. And then you got to look at the three authors of of the paper. There's three people, Helen Cooper, Ralph Blumenthal and Leslie Kane, two of those authors are people who write about things that are essentially supernatural or UFO type things. Ralph Blumenthal wrote a book about essentially alien abductions. As a Harvard researcher, I think it was some researcher from some university called John Mack, who did a lot of research into alien abductions, essentially people who had these experiences of alien abductions, and he was very, very credulous and really very friendly towards these people, and basically gave them a lot of credence is kind of saying, these alien abductions are real, when all of these alien abductions really are not based on any real evidence other than the recollections of the person who thought that this thing happened to them. Another person there is Leslie, Leslie Kane. Leslie Kane has written books about UFOs. Before she's written a book, I think it's called UFOs, and generals or something like that. And which was about how there are people who believe in UFOs, who were in very high positions of power, but again, it's kind of a book that essentially is strongly suggesting that UFOs are real. And since since then, she's written other books about life after death, and she said, she essentially believes that when mediums have seances things actually happened. She gives she gives an account of some disembodied hands touching her or some disembodied void or something like that when she attended a seance. So you've got people who, even though they won't come out directly and say it, are kind of very sympathetic to the alternative views of science and reality, essentially verging on the supernatural. And then we had Helen Cooper, who was a bit more of a straight laced reporter, but still, I think, to some degree is sympathetic to that position. So you got three, three reporters on this story. And that gives it a certain gravitas. If it was just one of them writing it, it, it would be, I think, a different thing. And perhaps the fact checkers and the editors will pay more attention to it. But you can write a story that's facts. checkable, passes the fact checkers that still has a lot of a slant

Stephen Bradford Long 20:49
that has assumptions or points in a direct or is suggestive of things that aren't verified? Yeah,

Mick West 20:56
yeah. And people take different things from the story. Leslie Kane has said that she was kind of disappointed that people focused on the videos because for her the point about the story was that there was this secret program. But for a lot of people, this secret program that has very little details of it in there, and it's kind of boring is kind of like the political horsetrading, Harry Reid and his friend and things like that, that wasn't that interesting. The interesting thing was evidence of Europos. So the videos became the story. And I think that's, that is in itself, you know, because the bulk of the story was about this, how this money got spent. But then the public reads the story in the like New York Times like shows video of UFO is the video of a flying saucer. UFOs are real government and bits UFOs are real, they take different things from it. And then the New York Times, lots of people read that story. And I think it's kind of like a, you know, bite of the poisoned apple or the forbidden fruit. And once you start getting the taste for that, that type of thing, is kinda in a way, a little bit of a slippery slope. It is like this story, you've done it in a certain way. So it's fact checks and everything. And yet, it's this exotic subject that gets loads of attention. You can do another story along the same lines. And fact check it just as much, but still have that slant. And that's what happened is they did a bunch of stories along the same lines.

Stephen Bradford Long 22:21
It's fascinating. And it's like, giving people a taste for this story. And, like, here's the thing, I feel like I'm open minded to a fault like I am. I feel like I'm actually willing to believe that there are ultra Terrestrials flying around the planet. Like that would be fucking insane. But like, the universe is an insane place. I just want evidence, I guess. Like, I feel like I'm willing to believe a lot of shit a lot of crazy shit. And maybe that's my temperament. Maybe that's like, my, my personality, I don't know, it would it would upend our entire everything, like it would it would upend our model of of everything. And so that would be an issue. But I just want evidence, that's it, and like, rigorous evidence and so it's like, the fact that we have, like, every single one of us have these incredible devices in our pocket called a smartphone where we can take HD footage, and, and like, why why do all of these videos still look like they came out of the fucking 50s? Like, with with the military that had in the in the Pentagon that has like access to some of the most incredible technology on the planet? Why the hell does it look like that? Does it? Is it the same quality of footage as like that Bigfoot video? From I forget when it was, like, a gazillion years ago that? Yeah, that's so like, grainy and terrible and it was eventually proven to be fake. Like, I would like this to be true. But like I said, there's nothing there's just nothing beneath that iceberg. There there is there is very little there are a lot of promises of evidence and then there just isn't the evidence.

Mick West 24:20
Yeah, the the number of disconnects, there's kind of two main disconnects I see in the UFO field. One is a very simple mechanical disconnect between eyewitness testimony and photographic evidence. Yeah. Now you talk about cellphone videos. We all have 4k cameras in our pockets now, which is pretty true. And self 4k video is is almost on a par with human vision. It's perhaps like maybe half the resolution of human vision just based on me like looking at planes and taking pictures of planes and then looking at what you can see there's pretty good people points out there. It's not that good at take seeing pictures of things that are far away. And which is also true. So if you take a picture of the moon with yourself, and it generally doesn't turn out very well, or a plane, you're just going to be fairly blurry. So so that is true. However, the disconnect is that a lot of the eyewitness accounts are things that are much closer, people describe seeing things in a lot of detail, they'll describe things like seeing a line of lights, or even Windows, or they'll see shapes that will see legs underneath the craft, or they describe the shape of the craft and various little details on it. Or they'll say it was hovering over trees just 300 feet away, or was right by overhead. And then when you look at the actual footage, if there is any, then it's it doesn't look anything like that it looks like it's something blurry and out of focus is much further away. We have these people's claiming that the things were close, and we have devices that are capable of taking pictures of things that are close, but all we get is photos of things that are too far away, to tell what they actually are. So this is a huge disconnect that people have been observing for for over many years. You know, there's jokes about how Bigfoot is naturally out of focus is so fairy that it's just maybe people don't even joke about it, they actually make similar claims about UFOs. They have like a reality distortion field around them, which creates blurriness around them. So you can't focus on that. Yeah, there are claims that people make that super clever people claim to have that with their eyes to see things that are pin sharp, and they see exactly every detail and even even at rivets in the surface of the object. But somehow you can't take a photograph of it. And then you get people arguing that it there's some field where you can see it with your eyes, but not with a camera, which is pretty much nonsense because eyes and cameras work in almost exactly the same way they have a lens, we have an array of sensors in the back of, of the your eye or in the back of the camera and it gets translated into an image, it's almost exactly the same. The eye is a biological analog of, of a digital camera, an analog version of that digital camera, then the other big disconnect is something you kind of touched on there as is the would be a big deal. If this was true, it would be a huge deal. It would be perhaps the biggest thing that's happened in all of human history, if we were to make contact with an alien race. And it was even if that wasn't the case, if we if it was simply antigravity craft flying around or warp drives playing around, that's a quantum leap in, in human technology that would revolutionize the entire world. So we're talking about a defining moment in human history, from one epoch to the next, like pre warp drives to post warp drives or pre alien contacts to post alien contact is this defining moment, and yet we've got these shitty little boutique programs like Harry Reid, 22 million dots. We've got all this nothing from the government or the military. We got we got Marco Rubio go. Yeah, maybe it's aliens. But maybe now we don't know. We'll find out. We'll have things to do. So I'll talk to you later. Yeah, exactly. disproportionate response. It really was that important? It? Yeah. Do you know how much the F 35 program is going to cost over its lifetime? $1.6 trillion. Wow. That's like, the Americans budgets, entire federal budget for a year, but it obviously spread over like, you know, whatever, the 30 year lifetime of the program, but we're gonna spend $1.6 trillion on the F 35. Fighter, which is this new supervisors are gonna use computers and things and it's really good, barely, even though it's got lots of problems. And if this, if this people's suspicions are true, we've got these amazing craft flying around, it's completely obsolete and pointless having this face because this thing's gonna just like whiz around and run rings around it. So why are we spending $1.6 trillion on something that's theirs obsolete, and yet we're spending $22 million on on checking to see if it is in fact obsolete. If there's good evidence that this technology is obsolete, then it would be the most important priority for the US military and probably the US government to do and they should be spending billions and billions and billions of dollars investigating it. But they don't because the evidence is crap.

Stephen Bradford Long 29:41
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, that makes complete sense. It's like oh, that's kind of weird. Let's just throw a few dollars at it and and in terms of the budget of the Pentagon, whatever, however many million it was that Harry Reid set aside for it. That really is like a few dollars. That's like loose change. That is nothing Go

Mick West 30:00
Back then when when that came out $22 million over five years. So what is that, like? I for $4.1 million a year for you, Sarah, around $4 million a year. And the Pentagon's budget at that time was $600 billion, which is 600,000 million dollars. And so when we're talking about 4 million versus 600,000 million is nothing. It's a tiny little, it's an accounting error. In fact, they have much bigger accounting errors in the Pentagon than $22 million. It's essentially meaningless. It's like what they spend protecting the horned toad in, in Edwards Air Force Base. It's a tiny little drop in the ocean just given to Harry Reid to keep him happy. But it's had this like effects. Because it gives it the stamp of officialdom, even though the stuff that came out of this program was largely nonsense. You know, they did basically a bunch of studies, where they asked speculative scientists to write speculative papers about what might happen in the future. And you people say, Well, maybe we'll have warp drives. And here's some equations. And we could go really fast if we had warp drives, but we probably won't, because it requires Exotic Matter. And then then they had like, people studying UFOs, apparently, under the under the hood, but what actually came out of that there's only got $22 million. Yeah, what, how much money? Can they spend doing their investigations, they really haven't done done anything that seems very impressive. They've perhaps collated a whole bunch of accounts. So we've got kind of nothing came out of it really.

Stephen Bradford Long 31:45
And like any blogger can do that. Like it. It's not very impressive, like anyone can can compile bunch of interesting eyewitness stories, like that's nothing.

Mick West 31:55
Yeah, well, they probably have some access to classified information, which is a little bit worrisome in itself, because a lot of the people who are involved in this are a bit a bit kooky like this. He's got these strong opinions that aliens are amongst us. And he said this himself, and he's, he's he had these strong opinions about Skinwalker Ranch and paranormal things. I don't know if you know, but like, the FAA has a little paragraph in the far aim regulation. What is the F F? F? What was that? Again, the FAA, what is the Federal Aviation Authority, okay, they are the people in charge of their traffic in the United States, and they have all the regulations for planes and pilots have to have to follow so it's the federal government's aviation authority. And they have a paragraph in their, their regulations, which are referred to as far aim is to essentially two sets of regulations. The I think it's like the Federal Aviation Regulations, and the, the airman Information Manual or something like that, but two different things combined together. They have a paragraph in there, which gives instructions for what to do if you see a UFO. I mean, I know a lot of people know this, there's actually federal government instructions for what pilots should do when they see a UFO. And what it says is, if you want to report a UFO, don't report it to the FAA report it to a UFO Reporting organization, like for example, and they give it the National UFO Reporting Center at new new fork, I think, which is just you know, one of these organizations like this one called MUFON, which is wild, like, less people send in a report of UFO and then that goes in a database and then nothing is ever done. Now, the interesting thing about this is that you know, you look at this now and that's all they say is it says Don't call us call one of these things. If you think there's a risk to life call local law enforcement for you don't call the FAA now, back in 2014. This this paragraph was a little bit different. Back in 2014. It says if you want to report a UFO call a UFO Reporting Center, like Bigelow Aerospace. And then he gave a phone number four Bigelow Aerospace advanced aerospace Science Center. And Bigelow Aerospace has somehow become the go to reporting center for UFOs. It somehow got into the FAA, that they should direct all the UFO reports to Bigelow Aerospace. So you've got this these weird connections of, of Robert Bigelow, there's this millionaire, kind of inserting himself into things. Now, of course, around the same time as that was happening, Bigelow Aerospace was running at it. So you might think, oh, it's kind of a reasonable thing to do that because they're doing a tip and he was looking at us secretly. They, the FAA should send their reports to them. But you go back before a trip, and you look at the version of that regulation before that, it doesn't say Bigelow Aerospace anymore. It says, If you want to report a UFO reported to knids, the National Institute for Discovery sciences and knids is the single point of contact for reporting UFO as it actually says this in the FAA regulations that needs is the single point of contact for reporting UFOs. And knids is an organization that was set up live in 1999. By Robert Bigelow, the study UFOs Yeah, cattle mutilations and ghosts. Oh, perfect. So there are three reporting forms on that there's one reporting form for UFOs, which is the official FAA reporting form. There's another one for reporting cattle mutilations. And then there's another one for reporting entities. And the entities reporting form is essentially a reporting form for reporting ghosts. So you've got this really weird connection where the federal government has within its federal regulations, the contact information for a paranormal organization, which is collating reports on cattle mutilations, ghostly encounters and UFOs. Yeah. And it's kind of resonated through what's been going on. And you were still seeing the tail effects of that Robert Bigelow is fingers have been all over this. And I still continue to be having an effects to this day with the UAP Taskforce. And now the UAP report.

Stephen Bradford Long 36:34
That's so fascinating. And what it reminds me of is Jon Ronson owns research and reporting in his book, The Men Who Stare at Goats, and basically what he does is he, he shows that kookiness, like goes all the way up, like it goes all the way up the lines of power, because people there's kind of this implicit appeal to authority fallacy in in all of this stuff, like, oh, well, this is a pentagon person, they don't have the same glitchy thinking the way normal people do, because they have the expertise. And I hear this all the time. When it comes to pilots, like Oh, pilot, you know, Air Force pilots, they know, they know what they're looking at, and they know what they aren't looking at. And they, you know, have years and years and years of experience. And there's kind of this implicit appeal to authority fallacy. And all of this stuff like Christopher Mellon, oh, the, you know, he's he's a Pentagon official or whatever. Surely, he can't be delusional like that, like the rest of us. Surely he can't have cognitive glitches, like the rest of us, he has to be able to think more clearly, because of his position of power. And the reality is, and I think Jon Ronson, and The Men Who Stare at Goats displays this really well, intelligence, and power, and prestige are no inoculations against delusion, like those are like, glitchy thinking. And cognitive biases is a human feature that can affect anyone, no matter how intelligent or educated or powerful they are. And that's really what this makes me think about is, is this assumption we have that people in rarefied positions like the Pentagon can think more clearly than us? And I, I think that that is just not true.

Mick West 38:41
Yeah, it is. It's interesting, because to some degree, it is true, because I think people who are in certain positions, think more clearly than the average person. But the average person doesn't think very clearly at all. If you if you look at opinion polls on a vast array of subjects, it doesn't take much to raise about the average human half, half of the people in America are above average intelligence. So it's, but a lot of the people that we're talking about who are in positions of power, or in some position of authority, the thing about that is that being good at one thing doesn't make you good, everything else. And this is kind of a fallacy that individual people themselves fall for. They think they're because they're very intelligent, and they've been able to figure out something very well. So they've got a PhD in something, which means they wrote a PhD thesis, which was a very great examination of some subjects that perhaps move the science forward a little bit. And they were able to defend that thesis and they got their PhD. You know, that means that they're a genius. And they can then take that that genius and they can apply it to any subject that they like. There's a very funny cartoon by On Saturday morning breakfast cereal SMBC, which is about a couple who have a pet physicist, and the pet physicist that they're keeping in the house with, you know, essentially, it's a dog, but it's a pet physicist and this cartoon starts talking about things outside of his knowledge domain, he stops talking about physics, and he starts talking about social sciences. And the talk starts talking about economics. And he starts talking about biology. And they get concerned because he doesn't normally do that. And so they take him to the the physicist vet, and the vet says, this is just something that happens with old physicists. And as they get older, they, they they branch out into other subjects, because they think that their knowledge applies to all subjects equally, and they don't realize that they should stick to the things that they know. And it's sad, but just let him enjoy life, it's gonna get a few years left. And they you essentially have to say goodbye to the pet physicist, because this represents the the end stage of his life because he started to become a bit of a bit of a crank. Delving into other subjects, I recommend looking up this this discussion, and it's pretty funny. That's hilarious. Yeah, this is something that that is a problem like you, you, you see it all the time, people have these huge opinions of their own intelligence, and they feel that they are correct. But they feel that they're correct. Not really, because their analysis is super good. That'd be because this they feel that their assessment of the evidence points at a certain thing based on their their experience. And like you said, you get it with, with with people like pilots, pilots, you know, they're very highly skilled at flying planes. And then they think that translates to being highly skilled at spotting UFOs. And figuring out exactly what they're seeing in the sky, because they're not prone to, to illusions, when where they are, and this has been actually shown, one of the famous old school UFO debunkers turned UFO advocates, J. Allen Hynek found out did a study, I think or looked at studies that said that pilots actually made worse observers of unusual things than ordinary people, because pilots are so primed to seeing things in a certain way. You know, when you're a pilot, and I've done some flying, you're trained to scan the skies and scan your instruments, you have the scan pattern that you do, and yes, you're trained to spot traffic, this is a very important part of flying is, ATC will tell you like you know, traffic, three o'clock 300 to 2000 feet above you. And you're supposed to look for that traffic and then spot it and then say traffic, traffic insights, no issue. And this is this, this thing you do over and over again, you're trained to spot other planes, then something comes along that you've never seen before. You don't know how far away it is or how big it is. You tend to just fit it into whatever your mental framework is. And you think you've figured it out. Do you think it's like the size of another plane moving like another plane? But maybe it isn't so good at one thing doesn't make you being good at everything? Yeah, absolutely. Something new and unusual.

Stephen Bradford Long 43:21
So in the time we have left, let's fast forward some to 2021 and the craziness in the news right now. So let me see if I can articulate what's going on. And you can correct me if this is right or not. So in the COVID Relief bill that Trump passed, he, there was this little thing smuggled in there that the Pentagon should release of thing a statement? I don't know what exactly it is about, you know, information on UFOs. And so that's what's happening this month. I am record we are recording this, by the way on June 22. For for anyone who's listening to this after the fact and so this thing is due this month, and the internet is losing its god damn mind like it, is it because there's a myth of disclosure, you know, and I don't mean myth in a derogatory sense. I mean, it's like there's this. There's this story in the zeitgeist about the government having information. And inevitably, it's like there's, you know, the return of Christ, there's going to be the disclosure. And when we enter this new world, this this new era in which we all have the secret information about what's actually going on what's really going on in the world, and it will usher in a new era. And so it's almost like this mythology that the internet is telling itself right or certain quarters of the internet is telling itself right now

Mick West 44:55
It wasn't just kind of inserted in the COVID Relief bill. It was essentially, Marco Rubio got this language put into, I think it's some kind of like a committee. Comments like the Intelligence Committee, the Senate Intelligence Committee puts these little documents together. And I kind of they're not exactly the same legal standing as a bill, but they essentially are because they're kind of like directives. And that got put into another bill. And then that bill was was kind of discussed, and then that was all folded into an omnibus bill. So and that is what got passed by, by Congress. So yeah, no one looked at this, this language, no one voted on it. No one even considered it or cared about it, because he had no budget and had no financial impact. And it was just, you know, just one of those 1000s of things, literally 1000s of things that were in this omnibus bill, the omnibus spending bill, which was part of the whole COVID released package, and it was signed back in December of last year 2020. by Donald Trump, Marco Rubio gots that, essentially from Chris Mellon, Chris Mellon, where gave him the initial language for that bill. And this is something that it's it's been verified like Tom DeLonge tweeted about it. This was back when Chris Mellon was working for Tom DeLonge. So Chris Mellon, UFO enthusiasts working for Fandango, another UFO enthusiast works with Marco Rubio, for some reason to get this this language inserted, which all it does is it's quite, it's quite a lot of requests, and it's quite detailed what they're actually requesting. So requesting a report on what the government is doing about UAPs, the official term for UFOs. So it's asking, what what are the processes that we use to investigate? And what investigations have been done? What evidence do we have, that people have been looking at? And what would be the procedures we use in the future? What will be a single point of contact for discussions about this? You asked a whole bunch of questions, which are all going to be interested to see how they, they answer them. But it doesn't assign any money. He gives no budget to it. And he does say within 180 days, and that 180 days runs out by the end of this week. Yeah. So

Stephen Bradford Long 47:39
what's going to come out towards? Yeah, that's crazy. And so I expect that it will be out by the time this episode airs, I'm going to try to like book it on editing this episode. And so it's timely. What do you expect?

Mick West 47:57
I expect to see a list of cases. Now Marco Rubio was recently asked about this, he was stopped at the airport by TMZ. Yesterday, I believe. And he was asked, What's going to be in the report, essentially. And he replied that people are going to be disappointed that it's, it's a list of here's things that we can explain, here's things that we can't explain. And a lot of things that we can't explain, are going to be in the classified section, because it involves technologies and techniques that are secret. That's basically all he said. That's all Marco Rubio said, yeah. But he also said that if there's something spicy in the classified section, there's no way it's not going to leak. Which is probably true, because lots of people have access to what's called the classified annex, which is essentially a database, an online database that you can either go and look at or access through a secure network. And that will contain like the more interesting cases or perhaps less interesting cases, we didn't actually know that could be like, really boring cases, but because they say that the spy one radar, the latest version of that, then they don't want to talk about the glitches on the radar or possible ways it was spoofed or or even just the way it was used to observe what they thought that they were observing. So there's gonna be this classified stuff, it might leak. It's really interesting. But I think it basically that's what's going to happen. We're gonna get lists of cases, and we're gonna get them saying, oh, there are cases that we can't identify. And we should do more work to figure out what these things are. They're definitely not going to say options. They've already said. There's no evidence of aliens who said they can't release out but that's just completely nonsense, meaningless, pointless statement that's just prompted by people saying can you rule out aliens and that will happen you realize aliens now of course we don't realize it. Yes. evidence of alien. It's like

Stephen Bradford Long 49:58
saying, well, we can't rule out, you know, chaos dragons, we can't rule out, you know, angelic intervention or the Holy Spirit or what have you. I mean, it's Yeah, exactly.

Mick West 50:11
So it's gonna be interesting because I'm personally interested, because there's a number of cases I spent some time looking at. And I'm hoping they will actually talk about that and get more information about it. And hopefully, in some cases, explain what they actually are. And that would be great. But because it's a program that has no budget, and essentially, it's going all the way back to Bigelow in the 90s. This is his legacy right now, as gone over through time. And now we have this we have a UAP report, the European report has no budget, so they're going to base their report on the UAP Task Force, which is essentially like a couple of guys in an office in the Pentagon somewhere who have been tasked with collecting and analysing UAP reports and UFO reports. And they in turn, will be using the work of ATEP, which essentially was the up Task Force back in the in the 2000s. And, and they essentially are there they were influenced by Bigelow, and they've had people in that program, who were working for Bigelow back in the knids day, like people like how put off as scientists who was studying what you were talking about The Men Who Stare at Goats project stargates, the the American response to what they thought of as being the Russians, developing psychic powers, which, in hindsight, we know to be complete nonsense. But back then they were they thought it might be a real thing. So they thought they'd better have a program studying these things. And so they had people like how put off and then they brought in people like Uri Geller, and they studied Uri Geller. Uri gala is just a stage magician who pretends to read people's minds spurious tricks I was gonna do

Stephen Bradford Long 51:56
Yeah, for people. By the way. P I think it was James Randi, who did a whole expos a on him for people who who want to see how this stuff works like psychic phenomena go go onto YouTube and just look up arry Geller, and James Randi, and it's pretty awesome watching James Randi work. It's really really cool watching him debunk these, you know, complete charlatans and to think that arry Geller was able to fool the US military. Were they you know, they were study fucking studying him.

Mick West 52:29
But yeah, that's that's the thing, though. You say he fooled the US military. And that's what's what people get upset about. They say, how could the Pentagon be fooled by Iriga hat? And now they say, how could the Pentagon not know what these UFOs are? How could the Pentagon like be fooled by this, this blushing green triangle if it's actually a plane? It's like, MC versus the Pentagon? That's not what it is. You know, there's these little programs like the project Stargate was, I'm sure something that was widely derided within the Pentagon by by by many people, because it's obvious, ridiculous nonsense, studying cycles. And right now is the same type of thing. We've got these little programs, Harry reads a tip program and Bigelow's aid program, and the UAP Task Force, they're just little things like two guys in a room. It's not the Pentagon,

Stephen Bradford Long 53:16
that's just two guys in a room. That's really interesting. So too, if I'm, like, understanding you correctly, the Pentagon is such a huge, huge, huge thing, with so many people in it, that we can't say, oh, there's this, there's this one tiny little, you know, program with like, two dudes in a in a basement somewhere just doing their thing because they managed to get some money from a beleaguered upper person, or whatever. That is not we shouldn't say that is the Pentagon saying x that is the Pentagon condoning x it is it is like this. Okay, so that's actually really, really helpful.

Mick West 54:02
Anyway, it's kind of like the Pentagon begrudgingly allowing the civilian politicians to do the thing. The Pentagon works for us. They work for the politicians, essentially, who are our proxy. And so when politicians tell them to do something, they have to do it. If they they're told to start a program to study UAPs they have to do if it's if they're told to put it out to tender and pick whoever applies for it. That's what they have to do. So the Pentagon didn't decide, Oh, we'll get Robert Bigelow to study UFOs the Pentagon was directed by a bill created by Harry Reid and Daniel Inouye and Stevens to do this, and so they had to do it. So they said, they set it up and put it out to tender and Bigelow jumps in. Yeah. So it's okay, I'll do it. And so Bigelow does it Pentagon isn't doing it Yeah, Pentagon just provides the framework for it to happen, because they were directed to do it. And right now the Pentagon is directed to do a europei task force directed to do a up report, the same thing doesn't mean they're taking it seriously. The Pentagon is a serious organization. And they, they're very good at, like forward looking things. They do loads of papers all the time on forward looking things like what what warfare will be like in the future, the considered that a lot, I'm sure they do a lot of work on drones, maybe they didn't do enough, but they certainly they're doing a lot. And it's not like they don't have programs to do things. The Pentagon has a multi multi multi million dollar program on exploiting foreign technology, which is the type of thing that the H IP supposedly is doing with UFOs. Why wasn't it just, you know, given to the people who actually know how to do this thing, rather than a bunch of random guys that Robert Bigelow put together? You're already spending hundreds of millions of dollars on the foreign technology exploitation program? Why can't they just like had their foreign technology exploitation program exploit UFO technology, it's, you know, again, it's this, this disconnect, between the magnitude of what we're talking about is like contact with aliens and amazing technology, and the Pentagon's response, so it's not the Pentagon, it's its civilians, kind of manipulating the Pentagon and the Pentagon being Oh, my God, and having to go along with it.

Stephen Bradford Long 56:28
That's so fascinating. And I think that that's a really helpful thing to realize that I think in the public eye, these these massive institutions like the Pentagon are much more CO they see that they appear, or we have this, this vision of them being much more cohesive than they actually are, are much more like, Pentagon speaking with one voice it is it is the Pentagon if there is this tiny program in it, and that means it has the Pentagon stamp of approval. And you know, that when the reality is these institutions are much bigger and much more complex than they than we tend to think well, yeah, for people who want to find your work. Where can they do that?

Mick West 57:13
Well, probably the best starting point is my website. metabank metabank.org. You can also find me on YouTube and Twitter at Mick West.

Stephen Bradford Long 57:24
Perfect. Yeah, everyone, go check out his stuff. It is super cool. And we talked about this some last time. But what I so appreciate about you is that you aren't derisive like you You aren't mean, you are very respectful. And I think that goes a long way when it comes to discussing stuff like that. So I think that's important.

Mick West 57:46
Very important to communicate, I think with people and not just simply dismiss them out of hand. If they have completely ridiculous ideas, though, I think perhaps a little bit of derision justified if they if they persist? Absolutely. The opening thing should always be to talk about it and try to figure out what's actually going on.

Stephen Bradford Long 58:05
Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, Midwest, it is great talking to you again, and you know, who knows maybe someday the aliens were at will actually show up in front of an iPhone camera in which case you know, we'll have you back on to talk about that. All right. Well, that is it for this show. The music is by the jelly rocks and eleventy seven you can find them on iTunes, Spotify or wherever you listen to music. This show is edited and produced by Dante salmoni. It is written and performed by me Steven Bradford long it is a production of rock candy recordings as always Hail Satan, and thanks for listening.

58:45
Sisyphus gotten mixed up as it used to be and so cascade blasted up to the casket bought and sold some stuff to broker like commodities to drive the culture. Funny I've never seen the carpool World Peace from

59:13
you I Joe waysides.

59:42
shaken up running. Every soul is close to your booth. Mr. Schauder. What's another bipolar soldier worth to you? trisara taxon talks on the homegrown folding kings cane sets eight below my goldfish on the blackjack table. I can get

1:00:17
the mag Galloway sat Greg said as you see the banjo fundament the crushed stone underclass

1:00:58
loose on the evening news I could stockpile demons in you see his show up on TV too

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-TST vs CoS

2022-10-11T08:06:15Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

TST_vs_CoS
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
satanism, satanic temple, people, satan, lavey, church, satanic, anarchist, idea, tst, belief, tenets, interested, interpretation, thought, episode, conversation, scientific, find, long
SPEAKERS
Greg Stevens, Stephen Bradford Long

00:00
Hi,

00:01
I'm Liam Hooper. And I'm Peterson Toscano. Together, we co host the Bible bash podcast. Each month we look into a different ancient story. We're curious to find insights into our own queer lives. We discuss these and share our findings with you. You can find the Bible bash podcast pretty much anywhere you listen to podcast, New episodes come out at the end of each month.

Greg Stevens 00:29
For me, personally, one of the real draws that Satanism has is the fact that it is a religion that overtly and explicitly admits that, hey, all of this stuff is socially constructed.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:14
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the spiritual discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long and we are here on the rocket candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com All right. Well, before we get started, I have to thank my patrons. As usual, we have a whole new crop of patrons who've been coming on board most of them say tannic, we still have a few progressive Christians still enjoying my work, but it's mostly Satanists. So thank you so much Satanists for supporting my work. I so appreciate it. So I have to thank my latest patrons Laura Laura Elliot Mixon, the Lizard King Amy Sillars, Adrianna Herman, David Limca, Eric Moore, and incidentally Greg Stevens, who I'm talking to today. And if you want to join their number, please go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long and for $1 A month or $5 a month you will get an extra patrons only podcast called the House of heretics in which my assistant Ramakrishna das and I have long meandering conversations about coffee and fisting and gay sex and the new Joker movie and any any number of things that that's on our minds that morning. It's very not safe for work. All the things that I edit out of my sacred tension episodes, stay in on the house of heretics episodes. Also, you will get access to my weekly meditations on the Tarot and you will get access to me as a creator you can help give, you can give input about the direction for the show and my blog. So really, if you want to see my work has a long life, then the best way to do that is to support me on Patreon and join that community. Well, with all of that out of the way. I'm delighted to welcome my friend Greg Stevens, aka priest Pena, moo to the show, Greg, welcome back. It's been eons, it's been ages.

Greg Stevens 03:20
Thank you very much for having me back on again.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:22
So you are the director of ministry at the Satanic Temple. And you are, you know, you've you've kind of been involved in the operations of the Satanic Temple for a very, very long time, the Satanic Temple is my religious community. And I thought that, to start this out, that you could spell out some of the differences between the Satanic Temple and the Church of Satan. So we can start there, because they often get confused in the media. I see people use the two terms interchangeably. Or they will talk they'll say, oh, you know, when Anton LaVey founded the Satanic Temple, or you know, stuff like that, so what, what are the most basic differences between the Church of Satan and the Satanic Temple?

Greg Stevens 04:13
Well, I this is a conversation Yeah. that I feel like has to happens a lot. And it's very understandable because especially for new people who are just coming in. It's not necessarily clear I have a I have a close friend who is just very excitedly started getting interested in this and sometimes just as a matter of verbal slip will be like the satanic church. And I'm like, Well, hang on. Normally, like a little stuff like that wouldn't matter. But in this case, Church of Satan is actually in other organizations. It's very different. Like if it weren't for that, like you know, substituting one word for the other, no big deal, you made a verbal slip, but in this case, it actually means something very different. Yeah. So, so yeah, it's a, it's a conversation that comes up again and again. And I do try to point people to, like on the satanic temples, main website, there is a link to a nice little explainer essay that Lucien has written about key differences. And I do try to point people to that. It even has a cute little little checklist graphic with like, the two different columns of like, what statements apply to one versus the other versus both. So so I feel like the way I'd like to approach it right now with you, instead of doing the sort of laundry list or the checklist, because that's something people can get online.

Stephen Bradford Long 05:46
Yeah, and I'll post that, and I'll post that in the show notes, for sure.

Greg Stevens 05:49
Excellent. So So I think that it would be fun, I'm going to, I'm going to approach it by talking a little bit about, like a narrative perspective, because because this is something that so Anton LaVey, founded the church of Satan, in the 60s, and there were a bunch of elements to it, including everything from obviously the rebelliousness aspect, the idea of using fact based rational scientific knowledge instead of just faith for belief, the idea of having to grounding things in pride and sense of the self, rather than the automatic assumption that you should bow down to others. There's a lot of different elements to it. But part of that part of the part of it was wrapped up in that for a living was this idea that according to live a, if we are taking a rational view and a scientific view of morality and the way to approach the world, and it should be grounded in biology, and the way things quote unquote, really work in the real world. And it was this very part, tooth and claw vision of evolution, survival of the fittest, you have to watch out for yourself. And we are predators in this whole sort of view, that was, you know, when it was popular, and since he was popular prior to that it became popular in the late 1800s. And, you know, it's Nietzsche was all about the idea of being the strong lone wolf on the hill, and, and all that sort of thing. So this vision of, of claiming the a scientific view of how to approach the way we deal with social interaction is this everyone out for themselves view, it's sort of very old. I mean, LaVey didn't invent that. But LaVey definitely included it in church of Satan philosophy. Now, over time, you know, some time has passed since the 60s, science has gone on and, you know, accomplished some stuff since the 60s. And there's been a lot of work a lot of research on the evolution of cooperation, the evolution of empathy, the fact that there actually are real scientific biological functions for things like working together and even seeking justice and some of these ideas. There's been a lot of research in the evolution of why societies, human societies function better when people cooperate, when people look out for each other, and, and so on. And so in 2012, when Lucien and Malcolm are formulating the ideas for the Satanic Temple, there really was a very deliberate split from that aspect of the from the, the that element of the Church of Satan's philosophy, the way I would describe it, and this is not necessarily how I've heard the stand describe it at all, he does, you know, one can go out and read his writings on this aspect of things to my interpretation, my my understanding of it is the when you know, that science has evolved to the point where you can't really support this view of everybody needs to you know, only the strong five everyone needs to be out for themselves and, and caring about other people is weak and is not the way you know, biology ought to work. When when science has evolved to the point where that is no longer a, you know, rational or a scientific perspective. You have to look at lovies interpretation of Satanism, and you have to sort of make a choice. What do you think is more important? The fact that he said, Hey, follow science instead of just, you know, your intuition, or what someone tells you, or you follow the idea that morality should be all about pure self interest and tooth and claw and survival of the fittest. The Satanic temples path was to say yes to science and no to that sort of harsh everyone was individuality. And so and so took the path towards prioritizing social justice and empathy as things that, from the point of view of the Satanic Temple are 100% compatible with our current understanding, scientific understanding of how biology works, but goes against what LaVey is understanding of how biology works,

Stephen Bradford Long 10:52
yeah, there's been quite a bit of angst over Satanism on the left. So I consider myself kind of left of center, you know, not as left as some of my friends, but definitely very, very far left, very far left for American standards, I should say. And there's a lot of you no angst over Satanism, in certain leftist circles because of that past within you. And you know, the vase embrace of, for lack of a better term social Darwinism, and how that kind of attracted some more unpleasant figures of the Satanic Temple is, from my observation, just as you know, like a lay person, just someone off the street who's a member, is that it is totally opposed to that, and totally opposed to I don't know that that emphasis on power and hierarchy and social hierarchy and the elite and all that kind of bullshit that encourages, you know, fascism and alt right bullshit. And I see at its core that TST is fundamentally opposed to it. So So basically, what I hear you saying is that TST took the core insight that LaVey was also building his church on but allowed it to evolve and allowed it to be more in sync with the sciences and what with what we know to be true about human nature, whereas I think Church of Satan has kind of become, I feel like it became frozen in time.

Greg Stevens 12:30
I agree with that. I feel like there is such a, there's such a strong impulse among the members of the Church of Satan that I have spoken to or where I've read their stuff, just such a strong impulse to go back to the well now this is the original text. This is what elevates

Stephen Bradford Long 12:52
the most King awful killjoys. Okay, I am a recovering queer Trad Anglo Catholic and I thought I got the fuck out of that to to get away from that bullshit. Like, I thought, I got a I thought I got out of Catholicism and hide in the high church and Anglicanism to to get away from people like that. And then I come to Satanism. like, Fuck, it's here too. But you know, what have you. It's everywhere. It'll be everywhere. There'll be gatekeepers everywhere.

Greg Stevens 13:26
I agree with that. And, and, you know, in principle, I think that if there wants if there is a cadre of people out there want to keep interpreting things very strictly according to lovies original writing, like, that doesn't really appeal to me, but fine, you do you if you want to and all that the only place where it becomes contentious then is when they are constantly harping on saying that any other group, including the Satanic Temple are not real Satan.

Stephen Bradford Long 14:04
They've said that to me, they've gotten into so they've gone after me on Twitter. And so on one side, I have the I remember one time in particular, on one side, there were the annoying apologists, Christian apologists crawling out of the woodwork like god damn rats, try, you know, trying to fight with me. And then on the other side, we're the Church of Satan, the you know, the official Church of Satan account basically saying, you know, who your article demonstrates that you know, absolutely nothing about Satanism or Satan. And this has nothing to do with Satanism, which was founded by Anton LaVey in 1966, or whenever and is represented in his writings and I'm like, you fucking killjoys like you, you. Yeah, it's it's an it's embarrassing to me. It's really, really embarrassing.

Greg Stevens 15:01
I find it weird because for me personally, one of the real draws that Satanism has is the fact that it is a religion that overtly and explicitly admits that, hey, all of this stuff is socially constructed. All of this stuff is human creation, there isn't some shining glory and ephemeral thing on high that we are trying to discover. We're creating it as social beings through the act of being sickness and defining that for who we are. And and if that is the case, then being so rigid in this idea that there is no there is no way that we can admit that this term, or this religion, or this idea could possibly evolve or have different interpretations to different people. Just is so weird to me, because I always, I always thought of that as a symptom of, you know, all supernaturalism of the idea that you can't change it because there's the glowing floaty thing in the sky that says, so. Yeah, floating thing in the sky. So what is the big deal?

Stephen Bradford Long 16:18
Well, and, you know, I was actually just thinking about this earlier today, how I think that every religion is ultimately an individualist religion, in that the vision, the private conception, that any Christian has of God is going to be different from every other God in the heads of every other Christian, right. And so because, because it is a social construct, it's an imaginative social construct, that is communal, it is shared, but also it is intensely private and unknowable to others. And what I find so appealing about Satanism, is that I think it accepts that reality, it accepts the fact Yeah, it accepts the fact that this is a private religion, you know, and this was always, this is a source of nonstop grief in the Christian world, because someone will have, you know, some transcendent mystical experience or whatever during prayer and you know, sleep deprivation and fasting and, and they will come down from the mountain from, you know, from the metaphorical mountain, and will have a an experience of God that is funded, or what they call God, that is fundamentally different from the conception of everyone else's God. And so this is when you believe that God is actually an objective reality that has objective qualities that are true across the board for everyone, then that just creates like horrific conflict within religious communities. But what I love about Satanism is that you don't have to have that there's this understanding that the Satan that I contain within myself is private and personal to me. And no matter how much we may talk about it and share it there, it will, you know, no matter how similar it might become to your state, and it will always be different by a matter of degrees. And that's great. That's good. You know, and so do you think that there's a so for people who are the uninitiated? You know, if you're listening to this particular episode, I assume that you've already read a lot of my writing on Satanism that you've already heard my interviews, my conversations about Satanism, with Jackman Turco and Greg and Shelley's Blythe, and so on. But for the uninitiated, modern Satanism is really rooted in a literary tradition that goes back to the reinterpretation of the mill, Tony and Satan, the Satan of Milton's Paradise Lost as a positive and heroic figure. So that is the that is the cliffnotes version. But do you think that there is a different story between T S T and Church of Satan? Do you think that TS TS Satan, as it is told that that story is different from how the church of Satan tells that story? Does that make sense? Does that question make sense?

Greg Stevens 19:10
Question does make sense. It's a really interesting question. I think the there definitely is a different emphasis on on what character traits you know are interpreted out of the myth and you know, like, like any, like any mythical figure, there is such a richness of references of Indian texts throughout history, not just obviously Paradise Lost but other other explicitly fictional texts and then of course, ancient scriptural things that are the may or may not have been meant to be fiction when they were written who even knows and you know, there's so much more from it not at all a lot of it's inconsistent with with other parts of it. So one can really is is the thing about long standing mythological figures? Yeah, you're had a lot to choose from, you're gonna pick and choose what character traits are the ones that you're like, No, these are the important ones. And I think that there probably is some some difference in, in the, in the interpretation between Church of Satan and the Satanic Temple, I am not entirely sure the extent to which I can't speak for members of the Church of Satan. And I don't know the extent to which they place importance on the millstone Ian kind of view, I do know that there are members of the Satanic Temple, who are so interested in having a clean cut separation, and that they don't even I don't want to say they don't want to acknowledge but because that sounds judgey. But they, rather than thinking of the Satanic Temple and their views as something that has evolved since the Church of Satan, there are a lot of members of the Satanic Temple that just skip right over the Church of Satan, like, No, we're referencing Milton, you're just skip right over the 1960s. And they're like, you know, they was interesting and had some things to say. And, but but that's not a part of what we're interested in, including. So that's just to be clear, when I say that's not a part of what we are interested in, including in our narrative. That's not me talking. But that is some subset of members of the Satanic Temple that simply are interested in calling this a completely separate branch that doesn't even touch bases with that view. And I don't know, I mean, you people can create whatever. It's sort of like trying to trace the evolution of genres of museums, like who even knows what influenced what at this point, right. So

Stephen Bradford Long 21:55
yeah, I mean, that's interesting, because I think that in a way, both of those are true, you know, so Ruben van Lewin, which wrote a gargantuan tome, which I'm sure you're familiar with called called children of Lucifer, and it's awesome. And what he talks about is how LaVey was inspired far more deliberately and consciously by kind of contemporary and very near past for him influences like Aleister Crowley. And you know, Aleister Crowley is kind of the father of us all to do what thou wilt. And he really, I think, created a bad rock for you know, witchcraft and Wicca and Satanism and all all the weirdness for the occult milieu, as as Joseph Campbell calls it, the occult milieu that we're in. I think a lot of that is really informed by Aleister Crowley. And you know, of course, he was influenced by Nietzsche and iron Rand and all that, where and he wasn't really draw, he didn't seem to draw, if I understand Roop, Ruben van luik. correctly, it doesn't seem like he drew much from the romantic tradition, from the robotic poets. Yeah, it doesn't seem like he was even very aware of them, or I mean, I'm sure he was aware of them. But that didn't seem to be, you know, the locus of his attention, right. And so instead, he drew from, you know, these other sources. And so I think it's correct that a lot of people in TST, myself included, are kind of reaching back further than then Anton LaVey. reached, you know, is reaching back further to Blake and Byron, and Percy, Shelley, and all that. But also, I totally get the, I really, really understand the impulse to just, you know, write LaVey out of our history, because there is a degree to which he's kind of embarrassing. And, and

Greg Stevens 23:48
I'm sorry for interrupting No, no, you're good. I just I just want to add to that, not only is he sort of embarrassing in a lot of ways, but the current socio political and cultural moment that we're in, I know that there's a lot of anxiety about subterfuge and possible behind the scenes influences between different groups that are a lot of accusations to go around and be like well, are these people being sincere about what they're expressing and you know, we can have a whole conversation about how social media has impacted the last elections I'm tempted that that's like a whole other episode but having said that, I can I can understand for that reason, the given that not only was was a kind of a dick, but there are a lot of current members of Church of Satan. Like if you go and listen to the special features in the in the DVD of Hail Satan with everyone.

Stephen Bradford Long 24:52
Everyone needs to watch. Everyone, everyone.

Greg Stevens 24:57
Unintentional. That's right. Exactly. Play, you don't get the special features by doing the streaming thing. So if you get the DVD, one of the special features is an interview that Penny Lane The director did with a member of the Church of Satan to give a contrasting viewpoint about Satanism and to basically critique the Satanic Temple. And like, this guy is very sitting there answering questions very confidently with a sense of confidence. I mean, Penny is asking open ended questions and letting him talk. And he is right there. Like he busts out with statements like if you're oppressed, it's because you choose to be he busts out with these statements that are so radically so

Stephen Bradford Long 25:46
obviously wrong. And not just wrong, but fucking dangerous,

Greg Stevens 25:51
dangerous, and associated with sort of extreme All right types of ideologies. And so and so the fact that those people exist as not just, you know, people who identify with the Church of Satan, but like, he's doing the interviews on the DVD representing the Church of Satan. And these are things that he's saying, not just, this isn't a hot mic caught at a dinner table chatting amongst his friends. This is him sitting there telling the world proudly This is the viewpoint that I have. Right. So it is for that reason to I can understand people's sense of you to be like, I don't know, you don't even want to acknowledge that there is some sort of common history with that dude's viewpoint? I totally get

Stephen Bradford Long 26:45
it. Yeah, absolutely. At the same time,

Greg Stevens 26:48
I don't know. I just I'm, I think I think it would be it would be nice if we could at least acknowledge the V is a part of satanic history whether we agree wholly partially or don't agree at all. Yeah, we live as a part of and had some interesting thoughts for the way they live. They recast notions of magic as purely psychological and No, he wasn't the first one to do that. But he did have an important impact on the framing of of magic in this non supernatural stick way. There was some there's some stuff in there. I think that uh, I'm generally not a fan of the the need to turn people into either pure idols or pure villains. So I'm okay. With have they had some contributions, but generally being a dick, who was wrong and having both of those things true and

Stephen Bradford Long 27:47
have them? And yeah, and for me, Satanism is about rejecting false binaries. And so one of those false binaries is good versus evil is seeing someone as all good or all bad, but completely villainizing them or completely idolizing them. And, you know, one of those core insights that I think is, I don't know, the reason why I don't think we can't just remove LaVey completely from our kind of satanic heritage is because I think one of his core Insights is non theistic Satanism. I think that that, you know, maybe that can't be traced to him. I don't think that that is maybe his original idea, but I think he's really maybe the one who popularized the idea of that, that religion, as purely symbol is, is positive. And I think that that has pretty much infiltrated most of modern Satanism. You know, I, and I think that we can draw a lot of that from, we can trace a lot of that back to love a, and I'm sure, you know, other people said it, I'm sure, you know, that's been an idea that's been a, that's an idea that's been around for forever. You know, the Greeks were talking about shit like that. Ancient pagans, were talking about shit like that. But LaVey, I think, was able to popularize it in a way that has infiltrated all of modern Satanism or most of modern Satanism. I don't know what you think of that. But that That, to me alone is a reason why we can't just completely dismiss him and say, Well, you know, we have nothing to do with him. We obviously trace a lot of our philosophy back to him. So um, okay, so apart from the main differences between TST and Church of Satan, what are some of the my the more like minut expressions of Satanism that you notice within the satanic community? Big question.

Greg Stevens 29:45
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's interesting to me one of the things that I like about the seven tenets, the Satanic Temple is the they are very open into individual interpretation and they are sort of flexible in that way. So one can be, yeah, one can be a member of the Satanic Temple who says I align my core ethical and moral beliefs with the seven tenets and choose to interpreted in, you know, some people like to ground their own desire to be vegan and say that springs from their interpretation of the seven tenets, which is totally valid, but there are plenty in there, but there are plenty of non vegans who also feel like they live their lives consistently with the seven tenets. And that's also valid. People can that's my, that's one of the reasons why I like to, when I'm the way the word smithing, I did just a second ago, I, I tried to be careful about saying that it's not the veganism for that person is derived from the seven tenets, it's the ID is something that is consistent with or can be seen as for that person, a natural connection with because I don't, you know, I try to be careful that I'm not giving the implication that if A then B, right, you know, it's because like, the example that I use for my own self is I am, I am hugely and enthusiastically, all about transhumanism. And I think that

Stephen Bradford Long 31:43
that's something I'd love to pick your brain about later. By the way, at some point, we need to talk about that. But sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt going.

Greg Stevens 31:51
No, absolutely. And we should we should do that episode. But yes, let's but, but like, when I think about the idea that one's body isn't viable, and subject to one's own will. For me, a thing that flows naturally from that and is naturally connected to that is the idea of technological or medical life extension, the idea of being able to die when you choose to die, rather than due to the inevitability of old age, or, or, or even the idea of pure phenotypic freedom, that eventually we get through either biology or technology or a combination of the two, to the point where one day if we want to change genders, or we want to grow purple wings, or we want to do whatever the fuck we want with our bodies, we can become that, because our technology enables us to take on these different forms. I am hugely a fan of these sorts of ideas in the post humanist and transhumanist communities and in my mind, in my feelings, they're very satanic there are right there with tenants. Now, there are plenty of people who would probably who are probably like, what my okay, but that's not produce something that's important to them, and that's fine.

Stephen Bradford Long 33:22
Well, and actually, you know, along those lines, you know, one of my big passions is climate justice, and, you know, combating climate change. And to me, climate change the, the, you know, the reality of climate change and living in light of that is an incredibly satanic endeavor for me, because, you know, that plugs for me directly and to Milton's Paradise Lost, you know, where Satan was this figure fight, you know, rising up against incredible impossible odds to overthrow the powers that be and to me, that is a very good analog for what we are having to do right now with climate change, you know, where we're having to, to rise up against incredible odds and shift our culture and alter the powers that be in such a way that that we can have a better future and so to me, climate change fit you know, that was a passion of mine, you know, no matter what I would be, but it fits it clicks really well into my Satanism and that's it's something that actually that I want to write an article about because to me it is our you know, our fight against climate change is so mill Tony and it is like so say to Rome, romantics, Satanism for me, because it's all about you know, fighting against the powers that be to create a better world. One of the points that seems to be a really big hitch for a lot of people and you may not want to talk about There's at all but one of the things that seems to be an issue for a lot of people is, you know, I, I, they say I love Satanism. I love the figure of Satan. But I'm just maybe too open to the idea of the supernatural to be in the state to be in the satanic community or in the Satanic Temple, they point to, I forget which tenant ID it is, let me let me pull out my membership card right here. 12345 tenant, five, believe should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world, we should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs. And what's really interesting to me about that, I call myself a methodological materialist meaning I think that the best way we come to understand the world around us is through material means it through through the sciences, and if it isn't falsifiable, if there's a claim about the material world that isn't falsifiable, then I have no, then I have no reason to fucking believe it. I don't, I cannot, you know, in principle, believe something that has that is unfalsifiable, that is unfalsifiable, or hasn't, or is falsifiable and has not been proven, you know, so I have no reason to believe something that doesn't mean it isn't out there. That doesn't mean it won't be discovered at some point. But it also is to say that it also isn't to say that it will be discovered, and so I have no reason to believe it. So I'm withholding belief in the supernatural, I'm withholding belief in a higher power. That doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means I cannot sign off on it until it has met scrutiny, you know, scientific scrutiny and rational scrutiny. So I don't have a problem with this tenant. But a lot of people do so. So for someone who is aligned with the principles of TST, and is in fact trying to live, you know, in is trying to conform their beliefs to their best scientific understanding of the world. What if their scientific understanding of the world is incomplete or wrong? I don't know. I don't know what my question is here. But I don't know. Maybe you have a thought on this.

Greg Stevens 37:09
So all tips for understanding the world of the world are incomplete and wrong. Right.

Stephen Bradford Long 37:15
Exactly. It's a method. Right, right.

Greg Stevens 37:19
Exactly. And so and so, you know, this is me may need to dedicate entire thing to that actually, actually, let me phrase it this way. Can we after this is over schedule. Another conversation to talk just about this? Because Absolutely, there are there is. There is a lot going on here and an actually have one more mental bookmark of different interpretations of Satanism, our original topic that I want to get

Stephen Bradford Long 37:47
oh, yes, I'm sorry. Yes, absolutely. It's okay. But

Greg Stevens 37:51
I will just tease I will tease. The reason why I think all that episode is we get into things like the way the allowing supernatural belief can end bleeding into conspiracy theory can lead into pseudoscience and pseudo science can actually kill people. So on some level, there is that there is that problem that a certain amount of simply allowing for stuff that is truly non vibe, verifiable, non scientific belief can have horrific outcomes. Now, does that mean that if someone is fully aligned with TS TS values and beliefs, but happens to think that crystals have healing powers? Should we care or not? Is like another side of that question. And it's really complicated. So let's put it that

Stephen Bradford Long 38:47
I would. I would absolutely love that. Because, okay, I will just save all my thought I will say, I will save all of my because for that conversation, and we'll move on.

Greg Stevens 38:59
Let's do that. Because, okay, let's do that. Because I did have one thing that I wanted to make sure that I got in to just sort of today's topic about different interpretations or, or flavors or whatever of Satanism. I am in the process of developing a show, a new media show that's going to be on the web with a friend of mine, who, whose name is also Greg Stevens, we have to come up with some cool title like the plays off of that, because if we don't take advantage of the fact that we had the same name, what are we even doing, but

Stephen Bradford Long 39:38
I agreed, yeah.

Greg Stevens 39:40
He is. He is an ex Baptist minister, and has gotten disillusioned with the church. He was a fiery sort of very left wing minister at a Baptist congregation. And I guess I'll just I'll tease it that like Hey, keep an eye out for it. that but one of the things that he's interested in, in Satanism, as he learns more about it from me and then goes off and does his own reading is he also politically is very much a anarchist in the radical progressive, like anarchy in the sense of community used to take the care for each other, but don't have hierarchy sense, right? Not in the brain shutdown sense, although not not that it isn't needed to burn shut down sometimes, et cetera, et cetera, as well don't take that clip out of context, please, everybody like that. He's he's a big as a ideological anarchist. He's a big fan of saying, logic, you know, I don't mean anarchy in the sense of bringing should down, although sometimes that might be needed like that. It's totally his line. But anyway, definitely. And he's interested in sort of alignments between that and Satanism. between that, and the would you call it, you know, even going back to Crowley, do is thou wilt will be the whole of the Lord is the whole of the law, you know, just all of these sorts of things that are in the kernels of expression, that are have a lot of correspondence with political energy. And I do see out there in this sort of Twitter sphere, so there are definitely people out there who are gravitating towards interpretations of Satanism that I feel are different enough from the satanic temples, that they, you know, I wouldn't even call it a variation of the satanic temples, social justice perspective, I would put it almost in its own category of being interested in social justice, but having a really strong anarchist kind of bent. And I find that fascinating. I don't think it's a I don't want to really, I don't want to, I don't mean it in a dismissive way, when I say don't think it's a big group, but it's certainly something that I have seen and I want to keep an eye on because I find it fascinating.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:03
Yeah, I can think of several people in that situation actually, but also wasn't Lord Godwin. You know, Mary Shelley's father, he was an anarchist, and he was actually you know, he was an anarchist philosopher and he was one of the first articulators of modern Satanism I really think that I'm pretty sure if my reading is correct on this he was the first one to articulate the kind of the the reversal of the mill Tony and Satan as a positive figure and I and for those of you who are interested, I have that passage quoted in my wife's age and article and I'm pretty sure that was the very first articulation on paper of the mill Tony and Satan as a positive figure. But he was an anarchist so that it kind of finds its roots there.

Greg Stevens 42:46
Interesting, though. I didn't know I don't know where I didn't know enough about him to know that he was an anarchist. I should look into that. That is fascinating, too.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:56
So unfortunately, I think we're at the end of our time this this is flown by and we're going to have to do more of this now that you are a full time satanist and I'm so very very jealous maybe I shouldn't be I'm I'm just yearning for the day that I can do you know content creation and do Satan II stuff all day long every day. I'm sure it has its downsides too, though. Maybe we can talk about that. And another.

Greg Stevens 43:22
Yeah, yeah, that's that also is a whole other episode but but ya know, I this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much for having me on. And I am. So literally looking forward to the next time we talk when specifically we talk about that issue of the boundaries of interpretation of the tenant about following scientific belief and the extent to which it is or is not important or is or is not a problem when people except supernatural list, or pseudo scientific beliefs. That's that's the whole episode. I'm looking forward to awesome.

Stephen Bradford Long 44:06
Yes, let's definitely do that. All right. Well, that's it for this episode. The music is by the jelly rocks and eleventy seven, you can find them on Apple Music Spotify, or wherever you listen to music, be sure to go check out our other shows on rock candy recordings.com. We have Bible bash, bubble and squeak and we have so many more on the way also, if you're interested in joining our network, I want to hear your pitch for a podcast. If you have a show or you're thinking about starting one, please let me know send me an email at my website and I cannot wait to hear your pitch the artwork is by Rama Krishna Das and this show is only possible because of my patrons to join their number go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long and you will get extra content each week. The show is written edited and produced by me Stephen log. And as usual, thanks for listening.

45:43
Proud jacked up on we got buried down thing is next to them.

46:52
You

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-The Satanic Conversion

2022-10-11T08:06:15Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

The_Satanic_Conversion
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
satanism, satanic temple, non theist, love, passion, physicalist, religion, call, satan, deeper, life, readers, love affair, steven, feel, religious, work, mysticism, agree, rationalism
SPEAKERS
Stephen Bradford Long

Stephen Bradford Long 00:17
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long, and you can find the full transcript of this mini episode at Steven Bradford long.com. I've spent a great deal of time explaining why Satanism works for me. But as I continue to explore my Satanism and receive questions from bemused readers and listeners, I'm starting to realize that there is any central component of my Satanism that I've left out so essential, perhaps, that it feels impossible to articulate, I feel intimidated, even trying to put this to words, but I will do my best reader and patron David got to the heart of this essential element of my Satanism when he asked the following question, quote, however, if I may, why not something more conventional like Buddhism, I always thought it would be nice to reach the ultimate state of Nirvana, you really don't have to believe in anything supernatural with that, of course, no one can tell you what you should do. It's only that there might be a tendency for people to be put off by the notion of Satan, because they might think you actually are worshipping evil or whatever. And quote, I can't help but feel that my readers are going about this far more rationally than I am. People looking in on my Satanism assume that because I'm a non theist, I surveyed the vast array of religious options and deliberately and calmly chose the most inflammatory, offensive and misunderstood path possible. Nothing could be further from the truth. If I were going about this rationally, I would be a boring Unitarian Universalist or a milquetoast Episcopalian, if I want it to be the most palatable, approachable person, I could manage it to be a secular Buddhist because I'm a non theist, people assume that I don't have any trace of intuition, mysticism or religious passion. It makes sense then that they would wonder why I chose the most obviously controversial religion in the Western Hemisphere. But something deeper than choice happened here. Something deeply inconvenient and confusing happened, I can only call it a satanic conversion. Against my better judgment. I fell headfirst in love with the symbol of the romantic Satan when I first encountered the Satanic Temple and 2017 Something inside me saying this was deeper than choice or strategy, but was intuition, passion and romance. GK Chesterton wrote let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair. My Satanism is all love affair. The only other thing I can compare it to is my love of Christ. When I was a Christian, Christ felt like a living being and to the object of my most earnest adoration and affection. Christ permeated my life. I couldn't help it. Now, even though I'm a non theist who does not believe in the supernatural God or an afterlife, I feel a similar passion. In the same way I fell in love with Christ. I have fallen in love with Satan, not by cold, calculated choice not out of a sense of what's most politically expedient, not out of a desire to troll conservative Christians and not because it makes my life easier. My Satanism does make my life more difficult. Why lose friends and be an object of fear or confusion? Why would I endanger my work and livelihood? Why would I jeopardize my relationship with my family? It's irrational, you might say, and I agree, it is deeply inconvenient and a deeply irrational. In fact, when I first joined the Satanic Temple, I resolved to keep it a secret and to live and practice quietly as a Satanist because I knew there would be repercussions. But as I started my journey as a Satanist, my passion for the symbol of Satan grew and grew. It flourished. It filled my soul I found myself possessed of what I can only call uncomfortably. A religious fervor, and overwhelming love. I reached out to some prominent Satanists on Twitter to get their comments on this experience. Satanic Temple "International Council" member Challies Blythe had this to say, quote, calling it a love affair. It's really close to my own view of it. And I agree that though based in rationalism, being a Satanist doesn't come from a hard, cold place. It's an almost instantaneous, deeply connected passion that you just know. It's coming home. And like most intense loves, the more you learn, the deeper it solidifies within you, and quote, When I expressed that the more it solidifies, the more impossible it feels to communicate this love to those outside it Satanic Temple founder Lucien Greaves agreed, quote, that's exactly the problem I have. I can try to articulate it. But there is no way I can make people feel it if it doesn't really speak to them. And quote, This is why I insist on calling my Satanism a religion, religion touches our whole being. It envelops us in a way nothing else can my Satanism connects with me on a deep, irrational, intuitive level while also engaging my mind and reason. It is a full body, mind and heart experience. It is also a shared communion existing not just individually but in the space between other practitioners of this path. While it might make the more rational among us uncomfortable, I don't know how to describe this journey as anything other than a path of physicalist mysticism which started with a satanic conversion. In essence, a living religious factionalism. This might leave you with questions. How is it possible to feel such love and fervor for a mythic being who has no objective reality? How is it possible to be religious and non theistic? How is it possible to be a physicalist and a mystic, I'm open to using terms other than mystic, but it was the word that came most readily to me when I was writing this piece. Satanism requires a profound paradigm shift into a different space, a place of wonderment and rationalism, religion and atheism. It breaks down these false binaries. Ultimately, with the goal of living a more fulfilled and joyful life. I love my work and want to support it. Please go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long and for $1 or $5 a month you will get access to extra content every week. And as usual, thanks for listening.

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-The FIRE ST final627qe

2022-10-11T08:06:15Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

The_FIRE_ST_final627qe
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
free speech, government, first amendment, incitement, speech, discord server, idea, conversation, people, talk, leftist, liberty, means, conservative, power, public forum, student, tolerance, culture, amazon
SPEAKERS
Adam Goldstein, Stephen Bradford Long

00:00
You're listening to a rock candy Podcast. I'm Erica Michelle, I host a voice diary called brown sugar diaries on the right kick network where I spill all the tea about my dating experiences life lessons, my journey to healing and wholeness my life as an entrepreneur, student, doctors, CEO of a nonprofit, and I give my opinion on the current happenings of the world. You see why I have a lot of stuff to talk about, tune into brown sugar barons wherever you listen to podcasts and listed on this team or while you cook your business should okay.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:03
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com. In this episode, I speak with Attorney Adam Goldstein from fire the Foundation for Individual Rights and education. In this episode, we get deep into the weeds of free speech what it is the difference between free speech law and free speech culture, and the broader conversation about free speech and tech platforms, the limits of tech platforms the way free speech interacts with the right wing versus the left wing. This was a really, really interesting conversation. And I learned a lot from it. And I hope you enjoy it as well. But before we get to that, I have to thank my latest patrons. My patrons are my personal Lord and Savior. I truly could not do this. Without them. They ensure the long life of this show, and that I can continue to bring you interesting content every single week. So for this week, I have to thank my latest patron Angie, I so appreciate it. Angie, I truly could not do this without you. Especially right now when I'm working less because of COVID. And if you want to join her number, maybe maybe she's not her, maybe he's a healer, or are they if you want to join their number, then please go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long and for $1 A month $3 $5 You get extra content every week including the house of heretics podcast as well as early access to content. However, if you are unable to give right now because the economy is in fact on fire and we are all struggling I completely understand. There are a few simple ways that you can support this show. One of the ways is to just subscribe. Wherever you are listening to this whatever pod catcher you're on. Just hit subscribe and if you are on Apple podcasts, leave a five star review. All of that tells our algorithmic overlords that the show is worth sharing with others and if you're on social media, please share it there, share it with your friends spread the satanic love as always special thanks to my editor and producer Dante slash llama boy he edited this episode. Also a special thanks to my Discord server, there is a link to my Discord server in the show notes. It is a fantastic little community. And I also need to shout out my sponsor, the satanic temple.tv, a streaming platform by and for satanist or the satanic adjacent you can get one month free by using my promo code, sacred tension all caps, no space at checkout. Please take advantage of that there was all kinds of fascinating, interesting, enjoyable stuff on the satanic temple.tv. All right. Well, with all of that finally out of the way, I am delighted to bring you my conversation with Adam Goldstein. Adam Goldstein. Welcome to the show.

Adam Goldstein 04:19
Thank you very much for having me. Yeah.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:21
So I wanted to have you on to talk specifically about free speech. You know, I am a degenerate far leftist. And, you know, in my space in my sphere that I run in, there was a lot of discussion about the limits of speech, how we should navigate speech, how we should navigate the speech of others. And I think that there is a lot of discourse and also a lot of confusion about this subject. And so I wanted to have you on to talk specifically about that. But before we get into it, tell us some about who you are, what you do and the work of fire which is your organization.

Adam Goldstein 04:59
Absolutely. Well, as you said, I'm Adam Goldstein. And I still am. And at the moment, I'm a Senior Research counsel, which essentially means they come up with difficult questions, and I try to answer them for the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education.

Stephen Bradford Long 05:11
Oh, that's perfect. So you can answer our difficult question. That's what they pay

Adam Goldstein 05:15
me to do is I sit there and I think about the big questions and think of trying to think about the best answers for them. Beautiful, beautiful. I started at fire in November 2016. And then for 13 years before that, I worked for a place called the Student Press Law Center at the Student Press Law Center, I gave legal help to high school and college journalists. And now at fire, I give help to college students, whether they're journalists or not, about the free speech rights and fire is a I could call it militant, non partisan, in that we help if there's a speech problem, we want to be there to help it it doesn't matter what the etiology underlying it is, if there's a and due process and individual rights in general, my specialty being free expression, obviously.

Stephen Bradford Long 05:54
So the work of fire say what that acronym stands for one more

Adam Goldstein 05:59
time. Sure. Foundation for Individual Rights in Education.

Stephen Bradford Long 06:02
Great. So fire focuses specifically on academic freedom and liberty within academia. Is that correct? Freedom

Adam Goldstein 06:10
within a campus or connected to a campus? Yeah, that's a good way to think of it. Okay.

Stephen Bradford Long 06:14
Very good. And, you know, I first encountered the work of fire through Greg Lukianoff, of course, who is the president of fire, I read his book that he co authored with Jonathan Hite, the coddling of the American mind, which was very, very interesting. And that kind of led me down the rabbit hole to fire and checking out the work that all of you do. So let's just start really, really simple. What is free speech?

Adam Goldstein 06:41
Well, free speech is a fundamental individual liberty is how I might characterize it, it's the and I would argue it's the most fundamental individual liberty, which is unpopular to say, right after an election, because whenever an election season comes around, then all the voting rights advocates want to tell you that voting is the most fundamental liberty, I think that even before you can vote, you have to you have to be able to campaign and to campaign you have to be able to speak. So freedom of speech is the liberty to express any idea up until the point where it causes the government to cease to function or it or it prevents the ordinary operation of a campus, I guess, if you want to look at it within the campus context.

Stephen Bradford Long 07:22
So I would interpret what you're saying as speech is permissible up until you know, your your fist ends at my face, kind of that kind of stuff, which is also

Adam Goldstein 07:35
why there's a lot of discussion and misunderstanding about free speech right now, because the concept of where rights begin or end has what it's always in flux to a degree, but it's been bent so far, that it's almost, you know, becoming a full circle where there's some circular reasoning as to where right should begin or end.

Stephen Bradford Long 07:51
So correct me if I'm wrong, but I really see two kind of broad spheres in which the Free Speech discussion takes place. One is this fear of law and the First Amendment and then the next fear is free speech, culture, free speech as a cultural issue. And that makes sense. Does that make sense? Perfect sense.

Adam Goldstein 08:14
And I think that's a discussion I wish more people were having right now because they're okay, great, can understand one without the other.

Stephen Bradford Long 08:20
So I think free speech law, First Amendment issues tend to be maybe a bit clearer. I when I think about speech, and offense, and debate and all of this stuff in our culture, the First Amendment stuff tends to be pretty clear to me, where as free speech, culture issues, that's where stuff gets more complicated for me. Right. And so let's talk about First Amendment, what qualifies as a First Amendment issue?

Adam Goldstein 08:55
Well, something becomes a First Amendment issue when some government officer and since 1925, that can be federal or state government before 1925. It was just Congress, right? And then the Supreme Court started to incorporate these protections into the 14th amendment saying that, well, if the states can't bridge your rights, then the captain perspective has mineral rights. So if some government officer takes some action, that either punishes encourages or attempts to control the speech of a private citizen, or in some contexts, like in the education sphere, and employ, because with higher education, there's a concept of academic freedom, which is sort of not quite the same as the First Amendment, but it's sort of related to the First Amendment.

Stephen Bradford Long 09:38
Now is that is it related? Because say state schools, take money from the government and therefore, say if a principal tried to crack down on a pro Palestinian protest, that would that would be a First Amendment issue at say a state school Right,

Adam Goldstein 09:59
exactly. That There's, if you've got a state school and in some cases, there's some states where even being a private school might not necessarily exempt you from a state imposed obligation to respect the speech rights of those of certain demographic groups. And I say that because two of the biggest states have laws that would interfere with the ability of a private school to do that. California has a law called the Leonard law that says, on a private campus, watch what they have it for both k 12. And for higher ed, no private education organization can discipline a student for speech that would be protected off campus by the First Amendment or the California constitution.

Stephen Bradford Long 10:36
So state universities, state schools, if say, a principal or an administrator, crack down on a deviant satanist like me, for, you know, for speech, that would be a First Amendment issue. And then at a private school, depending on the state, it is also a First Amendment issue. Right? Okay.

Adam Goldstein 10:59
I mean, in New York, and the reason I thought about this is because you mentioned pro Palestinian activism, and my alma mater pays me to say Fordham University in New York is obviously it's a private institution is a Jesuit institution doesn't take state money. But our New York has this civil rights law called article 78. It's a very strange New York specific thing where if a private school has engaged in a decision that is considered either arbitrary or insufficiently based, in fact, you can actually go to a state court and have the decision overturned. And there's a battle going through right now, because Fordham for over four years now has tried to prevent the formation of a Palestinian rights club or Palestinian support club, I guess you might call it. And then Fordham's argument was we don't want to have a explicitly political student organization. This is a place where there's College Republicans, College Democrats, college libertarians, somehow pro Palestinian advocacy now, and there's also, you know, there's like a Muslim Students Association of Jewish students association. I wouldn't say that Fordham is a political, there's a political science department. So the idea that this is somehow advocacy on behalf of Palestinians is somehow this line that can't be crossed without undoing the fabric of Fordham. Well, I spent seven years there between undergrad and law school, I have no idea what they're talking about,

Stephen Bradford Long 12:18
right. And so First Amendment protections is to deal with situations like that, where it seems like it is based purely on a maybe disgust response or a fear response that someone's speech or an offense response that someone's speech is, is, I guess, dangerous in some way. And you know, that this is really important to me, and because I am a degenerate faggot, Satanist, and there are so many people in this country who would want to silence me, right? There are so many people who would want me to not have the platform I have on this podcast, there are people who think that I am leading hundreds and 1000s of people astray. I know that because they've told me as much. And so to me, because I am a minority. I am a religious minority. I am a sexual minority. My life, my work and my life is only possible because I have free speech protection. And because offense alone is not a good litmus test for who gets to be silent or not. Do you think that's accurate?

Adam Goldstein 13:34
Oh, absolutely. I mean, you've tapped into something that I think nobody gets viscerally they have to live through some bad experiences to reach the point you're at, which, because a lot of times I'll go to campus, and what you'll hear is, you know, if I'm a student who's I'm, I'm a minority, I don't want people to say things that make me feel unsafe. So I think that we need to have rules that stop other people from saying things that would make me feel unsafe. And at a base level, it sounds good until you've lived through a couple of situations. And you start to realize, if the basic problem I'm having is that I'm not part of the powerful group, giving the powerful group more power to stop things will never work to my benefit. There's a there's a blowback, that if I'm running out group, I can't ask the people in power here, people in power have more authority to stop what people are doing as if they're going to use it to protect me. It doesn't work. We've tried it many times and like the history is full, especially recent European history of states that are giving authority to the government to stop speech on the theory that that benefit will accrue to the disenfranchised. It does not ever, not in the long run maybe for like a

Stephen Bradford Long 14:36
week and you know, minorities and minority religions, minority identities. We are the first ones who are silenced Who do I think will be the first ones to be silenced. When there's a change in regime or when I give the power to other people to shut someone down based purely on offense. It's going to be me. It's good. wanting to be my fellow LGBT people and people of color, you know, that's just the way it's going to be. So that's the that's the situation in kind of the First Amendment is fear and the First Amendment really, my understanding is that it's there to protect all that to protect the ability for people to kind of slug it out verbally. Right? And none of this means that there can't be vicious. Right? Well, I

Adam Goldstein 15:27
was it the number that I have to explain to people is it's very easy to fall in love with the First Amendment and I did to in my life, and to fall in love with it in the sense of put on a pedestal and say this is should be the this is the Northstar. This is the guiding light of our society. The First Amendment is the lowest level of acceptable behavior before American society ceases to function. That doesn't make it a good idea in terms of like, how we should guide our principles. It's like the law is meant to stop us from falling apart as a country, it doesn't make moral choices for us, it doesn't tell us what is right or wrong. The idea that, like you have the First Amendment and you're done, and like society is going to work the way you want it to is naive, in the sense that like we the first thing that is important and fundamental, but it's the it's the baseline. So when people say, well, it's okay to ban somebody from social media, because that doesn't implicate the First Amendment. That's the legal equivalent of I'm 18. And I can do what I want. You know, if someone sees me cutting my toenails with a chainsaw, and they say, you know, that's probably not a good idea. And my response is, I'm 18. I can do what I want. I'm legally correct, but I might still be an idiot. So and this is where, okay, got it rich culture, this idea that, yes, the First Amendment is what we must do. Free speech, culture is what we should do.

Stephen Bradford Long 16:42
And thank you so much for that image that is going to haunt me for the rest of my life. Now.

Adam Goldstein 16:47
That's a lot of a lot of times like, hey, it doesn't violate the First Amendment to do this. It's like, what is it not breaking the laws what you're supposed to do, right? Like, like, you don't get you don't get credit, because you didn't break the law, you didn't violate the First Amendment? That's right. I take care of my kids, right, let's that's the same thing we're like, doing the bare minimum legally does not make you a good person or may mean you're doing a good thing. It just means I want to imprison you. That's,

Stephen Bradford Long 17:10
that's a great, that is a fantastic point to make. Because I do sometimes, and I, maybe, let's put a pin in this. But I do sometimes see, especially on the internet, kind of being free speech, free speech as a Anarchie of bad ideas, just let we're not going to push back on them. And that is a misunderstanding of free speech. It's like what you're saying this is a total baseline, of, of how society should run, but it doesn't tell us anything about how to be moral. So before we move on, let's talk about the public square. What is that? And how does how does the First Amendment apply to that setting the public

Adam Goldstein 17:55
square, there's this concept of like the public forum test, and for a period from the late 60s into the early 80s, the Supreme Court was in love with public forum tests. So now it's written into all of our free free speech law. There's different types of public Well, I'm gonna say forums, I'm going to de Latinization I would say for right as the proper Latin plural, but I'm trying to get trying to be Latin myself a little bit get more planes.

Stephen Bradford Long 18:21
When in Rome. Yes, yeah. Talk to the stupid not to talk to a stupid gay bro like me. So tone it down.

Adam Goldstein 18:29
To talk to you know, I think in general, there's this. It's stuff like that. I mean, it's a little thing but uh, stuff like that, that makes people think lawyers are another species like, can we just talk to people like people?

Stephen Bradford Long 18:42
I mean, they aren't, you know, lawyers remind me of like, so many lawyers remind me of the Vogons from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Adam Goldstein 18:51
I'd say there's nothing there's nothing worse than like watching a lawyer on TV sometimes thinking oh, that's why everybody Oh, I'm already mad at this guy. Because he's because he's being a jerk or whatever. And on top of this, now, when I go out, people think of him that's yes.

Stephen Bradford Long 19:03
Yeah. Okay. Well, hopefully, hopefully, we can humanize the lawyer some in this

Adam Goldstein 19:08
public forum. Yeah. The there's the traditional public forum, which is like the steps of City Hall, the Speaker's Corner in the park, the places where since the dawn of Western civilization, we would expect people to go out and be able to speak unmolested, at least unmolested by the state. Put it that way, sometimes there might be some shouting. But usually, that's the where there's a right to speak truth to power and steps of City Hall is another classic one. There's then the designated public forum, a place that isn't traditionally a public forum. But we as a society sort of come together to say we think this is where we want speakers to be. And especially in the context of like religions and alternative religions. The big one, there would be the meeting rooms and public libraries for a whole generation of people. That's where like you would go if nobody else would give you a room. You know, whether whether you know you're you're practicing an alternative religion or you want to play Dungeons and dragons, you could go to the public library and get a meeting room like anybody else. There's then also this concept of the limited public forum, which is a public forum that's set aside for one particular speaker or set of speakers or one particular purpose. You'll see this when like the town Council's city council, we're gonna have a public forum on retirement, unlike retirement funds, you can come up and say anything you want to about retirement funds, you don't have any number right to speak freely in general. But if you're on topic, you can say whatever you want. And in the college context, you see a lot of designated public forums for students where any student can come and complain about, you know, the college's racial equity record, or any student can come and hand out flyers for their club. So that's the that's the designated public forum. The pandemic is not the main reason for this, but it's factored into this idea that increasingly private spaces have taken over and encroached on that, just through evolution of society, where you're much more likely to want to post on a privately on social media site about your club, then you're gonna want to go stand in the quad about your and talk about your club, unfortunately, in mostly every case, put a little asterisk there for a second, mostly every case, those places have just not been recognized as forums. For the general public, there's still private property in some sense. And that means your right to speak there is limited to whatever the owner wishes to extend.

Stephen Bradford Long 21:18
Okay, so now this gets into free speech culture, right. And so and this is, I feel like particularly complicated and, you know, I have spent how many untold hours on this podcast and off just trying to talk through this stuff, because I feel like the emergence of social media and these tech giants that are so huge, almost, almost to the point of being invisible, that our public square has been privatized, in a way. And it has not just been privatized, but it's been privatized with, you know, multibillion dollar algorithms that are incredibly powerful, atomized society, radicalize us cause disinformation, you know, all kinds of stuff like that. So this, this feels like a totally new era that we're in. And it's hard to kind of get my footing in terms of how I think about it, because it's so new, and it's so big. What are your thoughts on that? What I just said,

Adam Goldstein 22:18
there's a lot of scary layers to it. I mean, for one food to just sort of go on one thread that spoke to me immediately was the idea that we don't realize how fractured we've become, in the sense of, it's not even transparent to us how reactive our social media sites and just our media sites in general are to our interests. And we see it in little ways, right, like we see, like, we were thinking about going, going to why and then three days later, there's ads for snorkels on our Facebook, right, like it's little stuff like

Stephen Bradford Long 22:48
that, but plugs, whatever your whatever, whatever, whatever. Color into

Adam Goldstein 22:55
leather, you know, it's all it's like you were having a conversation about it, and maybe you know, the echo heard you or whatever and and maybe you're annoyed or maybe

Stephen Bradford Long 23:04
things my echo hears in my household, I don't I Amazon has so much shit on me.

Adam Goldstein 23:10
Like those T shirts, if I'm not on lists, somebody's not doing their job. Yeah, exactly. I remember like 20 years ago, when remember, we used to have homepages on like Yahoo, and you can personalize your news. And I was thinking, is this really a good idea? Because the most important thing in journalism was editorial judgment. And you're now giving up your editorial judgment to an algorithm that's going to decide oh, he doesn't like seeing stories about disasters. He likes seeing stories about football. So I'm gonna even more football stories. Like, Well, I appreciate the effort. But maybe you should tell me about the disaster to where like, we're not necessarily even working off the off the same of the same choir book, so to speak, where like we're seeing different realities to to a different degree. And when people start to spin news stories and little ways, emphasize certain facts drop other facts were and those make the circles within our little our bubbles of social circles. We ended up with sort of a group thing, limited to one bubble that is incompatible with the group think in a second bubble discussing the same event because we're not we're not getting the share at the same shared information, or at least presented the same way.

Stephen Bradford Long 24:10
Let me ask a question that I think applies to both of these fears of First Amendment and free speech culture. Let's go ahead and bring up Godwin's Law. So let's let's take a Nazi let's take a neo Nazi. Where is the line between his speech and inciting violence? Because a lot of a lot of people would see his speech as fundamentally hateful and fundamentally inciting violence. And so where is the line cultural? Or where's the line between inciting violence and free speech?

Adam Goldstein 24:51
incitement is tough to do, okay. No, and people have been throwing around that word a lot. It makes me very nervous because one of my big concerns is we start to erode what the definition of incitement is, because it really is a very limited series of things it requires. First of all, there has to be an imminent chance this this thing could happen. There has to be a receptive audience that wants to do this thing. And and it has to be something that I could say that triggers the audience do this thing they weren't going to do anyway. And so there's a lot of pieces to that, that I think a lot of things we've been calling incitement, don't the dominoes don't quite all stack up. Where if I'm saying this to an audience that isn't physically there, or that I have no reason to think is going to imminently be able to carry this out, I'm not really inciting them. And there's a great deal of political hyperbole that we've protected for years, where you know, encouraging people to be angry isn't the same thing as encouraging them to storm a building encouraging people to get politically active isn't the same thing as as encouraging them to assassinate someone? Right, these are. There's different pieces there. Now, you can make hypotheticals where you say, Okay, I see the mob, they're outside, they've got torches and pitchforks, and I'm gonna stand up and I'm gonna say, let's go in there and rip their guts out. That might be incitement

Stephen Bradford Long 26:03
would do what Donald Trump did at the Capitol, would that be considered incitement in that very narrow sense?

Adam Goldstein 26:10
I know there's a lot of people who would who would disagree with me on that and a lot of legals legal scholars, who would I've watched the tape and I can't see, I'm not seeing because he certainly encourages them to go to the Capitol, we're going to the capitalism illegal, that's not the thing that they did. That was illegal. You know, he didn't say go hang pens, he didn't say he said, we're gonna go there and give and give our Republican legislators courage to do the right thing. Well, giving people courage is sort of almost like a homework movie standing outside and everybody says, Oh, they're all out there. I'm gonna go do the right thing. I didn't see the incitement to imminent lawless action. I mean that, okay? That's the second part, you'll see incitement, the whole thing is incitement to imminent lawless action. Okay. So the action, you have to be calling for something illegal, and it has to be something that's going to happen immediately. There was imminent action, but I didn't hear him say do something illegal. So that's where for me, I don't think it quite met the standard. I know, there's people who would disagree. But I'm very worried if we start saying some things are incitement, if they don't actually call for someone to do something illegal. All kinds of things are are incitement that might end up encouraging people to do illegal things. But you know, I don't know that. If I say we should go do something about our taxes and somebody burns down the IRS. Well, I didn't tell them to bring down

Stephen Bradford Long 27:23
Got it. No, so Okay, so let's parse this out some so let's say you know, I'm a radio personality. And part of my whole platform is a lab. All lawyers are bastards, okay. And lawyers are actually you know, reptilian overlords, they are actually the Vogons they are here to destroy the human race, and they all deserve to be dead. Would that be incitement?

Adam Goldstein 27:50
Unless there's some other facts that still sounds like just political hype?

Stephen Bradford Long 27:53
Okay, so then let's say I take it a step further. Let's say all lawyers are bastards. They are all monsters. They are our reptilian overlords now I want all of my followers to glitter bomb every free speech lawyer in the country that would be incitement

Adam Goldstein 28:10
that sounds that could be incitement Okay, good. Any reason to think somebody might actually do it? Now it's incitement to a pretty minor minor battle. It's like, you might get you might get a sternly worded letter from the DEA, I don't think you're gonna be thrown in jail for inciting a glitter bomb, okay.

Stephen Bradford Long 28:29
Well, unfortunately, my, you know, I'm very much a pacifist. So, you know, the, the only incitement that I'll ever be doing would be made, you know, something like glitter bombing. So, Okay, interesting. So when people say we should shut down Nazis, because of their toxic beliefs, because their beliefs are fundamentally hateful, that is something that the government would not be able to do,

Adam Goldstein 28:57
right. The government couldn't participate in that. And in fact, if it was in a public space, like, like an actual like, like a park or a college campus, where they were they booked a meeting room, the government would have an affirmative obligation to prevent the D platforming of the Nazi there. The government actually that's and that's the hecklers veto doctrine that if the government stands by and does nothing in a government space while someone is censored, then the government is essentially using its power to endorse the censorship and their obligation is to stop, okay, the interference with the speech, okay, which doesn't mean silencing the dissent. It means moving the dissent to a place where both speeches can take place and okay. And as Betsy DeVos because I was at she went spoke at George Mason early in her in her term as education secretary. There were a lot of people standing right outside expressing themselves. And they had managed to move, you know, kudos to the administration there to move the protesters to where to where you can hear the protesters inside the event, but they didn't stop the event from happening, and you can hear the speech outside the event but they didn't stop the protest. You It's not always going to be as perfect as it wasn't that instance. But it's nice when it does work. Okay,

Stephen Bradford Long 30:03
great. So I think what I'm hearing you say is free speech does not mean not pushing back. It doesn't mean not trying to win the argument. It doesn't mean, you know, arguing as viciously as you can, what it does mean is that the government cannot infringe on speech unless it meets the very narrow definitions of things like incitement. I've heard libel and slander in there as well.

Adam Goldstein 30:34
Yeah, defamation is unlawful, if it meets its copyright infringement is probably the biggest category that goes unpunished. Okay? That there's probably more copyright. You know, in our life, everyone who publishes raise, worried about defamation. in your lifetime, you probably see five or six instances of defamation, whereas you'll probably see 500 to 600 instances of copyright infringement, but nobody thinks about it, because it's sort of it's in the water a little bit. And

Stephen Bradford Long 30:57
it's so ubiquitous, right? So there's a meme that kind of goes around on leftist spaces. And it is a cartoon of Karl Popper's paradox of tolerance. Are you familiar with this?

Adam Goldstein 31:09
I'm familiar with the paradox of tolerance. I'm not familiar with the cartoon. So this started

Stephen Bradford Long 31:13
circulating, I think, after the Charlottesville rally, basically, the application of the paradox of tolerance. This cartoon reads should a tolerant society tolerate and tolerance? The answer is no, it's a paradox. But unlimited tolerance can lead to the extinction of tolerance. When we extend tolerance to those who are openly intolerant, the tolerant ones end up being destroyed and tolerance with them. Any movement that preaches intolerance and persecution must be outside of the law as paradoxical as it may seem, defending tolerance requires to not tolerate intolerance. So this is not actually the exact quote from Karl Popper. I don't think he included the must be outside the law part. But this is kind of a re envisioning of Karl Popper's paradox of tolerance, which was in a footnote, and, and one of his books so I, I see this as a very popular meme in a lot of leftist spaces. Is this meme a healthy way to look at free speech?

Adam Goldstein 32:29
I think it's, this is another example of it sounds great on paper, but if you've lived it, you know, it doesn't work. Okay. I mean, this is essentially the same rationalization that's used by China. Okay. This idea that the domestic except you know, they call it domestic tranquility, they don't call it tolerance. But this idea that you can have any opinion you want to as long as it doesn't challenge domestic tranquility, and by domestic tranquility, we mean,

Stephen Bradford Long 32:50
the domestic tranquility, by the way sounds like the sketchiest drug ever, that? I would I would try it once.

Adam Goldstein 33:00
Because like, I want to know, but like, yeah, I could try to crow be able to, like do anything like I dropped domestic tranquility once I woke up three days later.

Stephen Bradford Long 33:09
All right, go on.

Adam Goldstein 33:11
Yeah, like that's, that's the problem is that if you've decided that in the name of tolerance, you're going to suppress intolerance. You have decided what tolerance means. And you've decided what intolerance means. And having done that commits you to a perspective that entrenches one viewpoint and suppresses others there. It's an irreconcilable position with actual Liberty where because once you've said, we must be intolerant of intolerance, you've said intolerance is good, as long as it's intolerance in the direction I think is the right direction.

Stephen Bradford Long 33:40
And who watches the watchmen? In other words, exactly, we,

Adam Goldstein 33:43
we have the same problem with something else that people have been making. God, the number of bad legal takes on social media this month has been soul crushing. One is that people have said, Oh, that first amendment doesn't protect falsehood. First of all, it does. That's completely wrong falsehood. And if you really wanted to get into the nitty gritty of we don't talk about a lot, because it isn't exactly the most patriotic discussion to have. But like, objectively speaking, the central premise of the Declaration of Independence was incorrect, right? Like, mathematically, we were getting a good deal in terms of our taxes. Mathematically speaking, we were paying less for the same services that British subjects were paying over there. There's I think everyone has sort of discussed that much of the premise of the Civil War was questionable. The idea that the colonies viewed the Constitution as a blood pact, that they can only leave through death was was probably alien to them. And yet, that was that was the central conceit of we must save the Union. So the first amendment has always protected falsehood, okay. And the reason why it has to protect falsehood is because who decides what's true, right? It's the same problem with who decides what's tolerance who decides what's in total.

Stephen Bradford Long 34:49
So how, how do we how do you reconcile the hurt and pain that say racist speech? causes to black people, or the hurt and pain that transphobic speech causes to trans people with free speech. How does that how does it how does this

Adam Goldstein 35:17
work? And I should say in some way, it isn't fully reconcilable. I mean, there will never be a point of complete tranquility in any free space, right? That Liberty presupposes the ability to hurt people, to some degree emotionally, not physically. And the best I think we can do is what we've always tried to do right is to is to support people who are in pain, and to be the better alternative to the things we see that are wrong to win those to win those arguments that inevitably come up. But there's a there was kind of an exchange. This is a little bit of a weird analogy, but it's the shortest encapsulation I can think of how to explain why inefficiency is sometimes good. And it was the 1980s. It was a supreme court appeal, during the Rehnquist Court, and it was the third appeal of a death penalty sentence. And Rehnquist had read had read out, trying to be clever, make a point how much it was costing the state to deal with this guy's death penalty appeals, even though they seemed frivolous to him. And at some point, Thurgood Marshall, now, the Supreme Court does not normally talk to each other, they talk to the attorneys. So this was a breach of protocol, Thurgood Marshall turned in his chair and looked at rank was and said it would have been cheaper to shoot him when they arrested him Woodman. And the core idea is that liberty is an expenditure, it's always cheaper, it's always faster, it's always less fractious, to give people less liberty, because liberty is the freedom to do things that are terrible to people. And it's the freedom to say things that are terrible and to hurt people. The problem is, as we were talking about, if you create a world where someone has the power to silence you, or someone has the power to silence your enemy, they will turn it around to you at the first opportunity and maybe sooner. And that's actually I mean, this is not again, there's not a perfect analogy. But during the Obama administration, we saw the senators change rules to get judges approved because they because the Democrats didn't have 60 votes. And that was the tradition. So they use the nuclear option and for everything, but the Supreme Court reduced it to 50 votes. Right, right. And as soon as the Republicans were back in power, they did the exact same thing. And then they packed judges the other way, and the end, they removed it for the Supreme Court. And that's how you got the Supreme Court we have now the analogy there is, you know, if you create weapons, because your opponent is terrible, they will eventually use them on you. And this is it's like an arms race. It really is. And so this is again, where the culture and the law don't necessarily align. I think the law requires us to permit people to say things that are going to cause actual real psychological harm to other people, right. And our obligation, culturally, is to do everything we can to ensure that one those people realize if they intend to make themselves pariahs, let them make themselves pariahs but to to offer the support necessary to show the people who are the victims of that to say, You know what, those people are messed in the head. And I think that even if censorship is the most important thing, if it like victims of censorship, I worry in the K 12 Space students get cynical about the First Amendment because they're censored through their college through their high school experience. Yes, the most important thing they need to know is that this is an aberration. This isn't normal, this isn't right. And I think that's also true for when people say hateful things about other groups. The most important thing for anybody who's a victim of that kind of speech to know is you're right, they're wrong. And we're gonna be here with you, even though we're not going to try to imprison them for being jerks, essentially.

Stephen Bradford Long 38:39
Right. And so I can see how, you know, culturally, we can do that how culturally we can stand on the side of trans people? Is that something that government can do as well, in terms of providing resources in terms of equal rights? That kind of stuff? Right. And

Adam Goldstein 38:55
it absolutely should. Yeah. And that's, and that's something that in terms of free speech, we don't we don't always appreciate is that the government is entitled to be a speaker, and it's allowed to have opinions about some things. And certainly one thing it's allowed to have an have an opinion about, is like the right of everyone to feel safe and secure and be part of this participatory society. So to the extent it's necessary for the government to step in and make specific regulations, and then that's where you can do things like workplace discrimination, where the government actually can step in and say, Hey, this guy is allowed to be a transphobic if he wants to be transformed, but if he's being transphobic, during work hours, and it's causing your employees to feel uncomfortable or unsafe, your obligation as the employer is to either fire that guy or silence that guy, because you have an obligation to make sure that everyone feels like they can work. They're

Stephen Bradford Long 39:40
brilliant. So I run a Discord server for this podcast and I think one of and it's a pretty awesome server. By the way, shout out to my Discord server. They're amazing and you should all go join the sacred tension dis Discord server. There's a link in the show notes. I think one of the reasons why the server works so well is because there are rules Right, there are rules to the server. You know, I've just learned that, you know, when I was putting this together with my mods, you know, people who are quote unquote turfs, trans exclusionary radical feminists, having them on on the discord server just creates a horrible toxic atmosphere and disrupts the peace of my private little Discord server, therefore I am, it is completely within my right to say, You know what, in order to maintain the peace and tranquility of the server, we're just not going to have certain conversations here, that this is just not going to happen. Because this is this is the way that I maintain the peace on the server. You know, another example Yasha monk and as recline were arguing on a podcast recently, and as recline brought up the point that one of the most peaceful places on the internet was Reddit, or subreddit slash, T. T. A, it is just pictures of tea is just, you know, pictures of people drinking tea and, and people's favorite tea. And one of the things on that subreddit is conversations about the health benefits of tea are banned, because they just learned, they just learned that people start fighting over the health benefits of tea and it disrupts the chill of sub of that subreddit. Is that a free speech issue? No, I mean, okay. Because there are so many people who say that would be that I've encountered on the internet. Yeah, there's,

Adam Goldstein 41:30
you know, the, the University of Twitter law degrees out there. You know, to the extent and especially especially something like like, like this court, like your server is your home, and you can invite people in your home or kick them out if you want to. There's also something to be said in terms of free discourse have to get to the really nuanced questions and the rarefied issues, you have to stop debating the big, like, the big stuff at some point. Right. And this is this has been a lot of the issue about like, I mean, this is this, this isn't the issue of it. But one of the reasons why all lives matter became so offensive, was it was being used as a bludgeon to derail conversations about the specific threats that the black community was facing, correct? Yeah. And that was not hostility to all lives matter was not because anybody thought all lives didn't matter. It was still good all lives matter was because when when you're trying to get into like, really specific, nuanced issues, and like one of those really nuanced issues, just for example, that is hotly debated elsewhere to is, why, why is why are interactions between people of color in general, black people in particular, and law enforcement so deadly? And is it because they're more likely to be shot in the interaction? Or because there are more interactions? And it looks like it's the latter that it's not so much a question of like, once the interaction starts, the rate at which people are shot is not, it's not differentiated by race at all. But the issue is that if you're in a heavily policed community, because of broken windows policing, or stop and frisk or whatever, yeah, because

Stephen Bradford Long 42:57
of like, basically a militarized occupation, right?

Adam Goldstein 43:01
If, if you have one interaction with a cop every 10 years, your odds are going to be, you know, point 001. And if you have 10 interactions with a cop every year, it's point 001 per interaction. And so that, but but that's a conversation you can't get into until you get past all lives matter, right? Because, because if if we say, Oh, we're not going to pay any special attention to any group, because all lives matter, then you end up not so in the same thing about having conversations about trans identity and the struggles that trans community faces. It's fine to have arguments to have arguments with turfs but you can't have those those second level conversations if all you're doing is arguing exactly

Stephen Bradford Long 43:34
yes. Thank you for saying that. You need those spaces as part of free speech you for saying that yeah, you know, I as a content creator, I have free speech and I get to determine who is and is not on my platform who is and is not on my Discord. I am the queen I can be had anyone figuratively. I'm not inciting violence.

Adam Goldstein 43:56
Of course, you know, when it gets when it gets complicated is when at some point you become Amazon.

Stephen Bradford Long 44:00
Yes. Okay. So thank you. So let's let's actually segue into Amazon because here's, here's the thing I'm going to put on my little paranoid leftist hat on so let's talk about Amazon and parlor. So parlour was just recently nuked from the internet by Amazon. I see that and I have two very conflicting emotions. The first and biggest emotion is honestly just my gut reaction is great, wonderful, because I was on parler to spy on it. I went by the username Haggard's come sloth, because it was all about, you know, free speech and free expression and being yourself and so I decided that I would just flaunt my full degenerate self and so I was on there as Haggard's comm slot. And I, you know, watched all the insanity that was going on, and I was like, this is true. The body politic should truly not tolerate this the body politic, we should decide, collectively as the populace that this is unacceptable. And so My first response, and kind of biggest response to Amazon being kicked off was a fantastic same with Alex Jones. Same with, you know, Stefan Molyneux, so on and so forth. But then there's a second thought. And that second thought is my paranoid leftist hat, which is, when is that going to happen to me? And how, how do we determine the rightness or wrongness of a platform like that, especially when it's private, and Amazon is private, and yet the public square has been privatized in a lot of ways. And we know what happens when people get kicked off of them. Milo INNOPOLIS is done. Stefan Molyneux is done. Alex Jones isn't done. But that's because he's like a fucking hurricane and will never be done until he has a hemorrhage on camera while screaming about gay frogs. But in but in general, in general, it's like, we know what, when Stefan Molyneux was D platformed. We know where he went, he went to gab or or he went to, to places like that where there just is not the audience. And that's the end. Right? Same with Milo. That's the end. And my first response is good. These people should be forced out of culture, they should be forced out of public discourse. That's, that's like my first response. And then it just gets way more complicated. The moment I get deeper than that. I don't know. Could you help me figure this shit out?

Adam Goldstein 46:26
I think so maybe I had a similar, similar first response of mine was, if they had had this level of coordination a couple years ago, we wouldn't know what it was noting was because they would have erased from existence. And we never would have heard it would have would have known his name. Glenn Greenwald, wouldn't be anybody would know they would leave their accounts. Yeah, that would have been it. And maybe that's me being extremely paranoid. But at some point, I think Amazon has easy yes, please. The easiest one, when you're controlling a third of web traffic at this point, I think that and this is this is my opinion, this isn't fires position, I'm in favor of fires, nowhere near having having a position on this because it's so far off campus. But I start to worry that why aren't we treating Amazon like a common carrier in the same way we would treat a phone company or a water company. And that like, if you're, you know, the argument for years had been well, you don't really need the internet. And I just don't think that argument, well hold water to No, not at all anymore. I think that is now a basic thing, that should be a utility. And everybody should have the right to kick somebody out of their home until your home constitutes a third of the possible places there are to stand in the world. At that point, I'd say you are now the phone company, you are now the water company, you have to sell this to everybody with the money to buy it.

Stephen Bradford Long 47:35
Without the internet, I'd be a bad lady.

Adam Goldstein 47:39
I don't want the sewage company to say oh, you can't flush your toilet anymore. Because we read your Twitter account. Like that's my concern is like that, to me is a level of control over individual lives. We shouldn't give any corporation that controls that much stuff.

Stephen Bradford Long 47:50
So making it a public utility. Would that mean that and maybe this is just a basic confusion on my part. But would that mean giving the government the power to determine what is or is not acceptable on the platform? And is that a problem?

Adam Goldstein 48:05
Well, to an extent, except the government would still be bound by the First Amendment. Okay. So it would be imposing the standards of the First Amendment upon that, even if it stayed private, you can still regulate it by that standard. That's how we've regulated utilities in general where you can have a private power company, although it didn't work out for California, but there are places where there's private power companies and private public works companies. And in those places, they're still regulated by the government to the extent that they can't just decide they didn't like what someone's speech was and cut off their water. If someone pays their bill, they've got to sell them the water, we're talking about a very narrow slice, like we're talking about the Oracles, the Amazons,

Stephen Bradford Long 48:40
people who own a very, very narrow who just provide servers,

Adam Goldstein 48:44
right? Like, they're not in this context. They're not a content publisher, obviously, Amazon's a content publisher, but they'll sell they'll sell you space for anybody's content. The concern, you know, I'm okay with kicking people out of out of private homes or out of private companies stuff. I'm uncomfortable with the idea that you can kick them functionally offline. One is that, as you pointed out, it doesn't actually change their beliefs. They just become harder to police. Yeah, like right now. There's this thing about is parlor that's getting space from from from Russia now. And Ben was from Russia. So not only do we not have an easy way to police them, but people we probably don't want them talking to

Stephen Bradford Long 49:22
you right now. Right? So it just got even worse. Okay. That's interesting. So now let's talk about something like Twitter or Facebook, the banning of Donald Trump, for example, when when Donald Trump was banned, I was like, Thank God, the malignant tumor is gone. Praise Jesus. Praise Satan. Hail Satan. He's He's off my platform.

Adam Goldstein 49:45
I think a lot of people had that reaction. Yeah, the impression like yes,

Stephen Bradford Long 49:49
yeah, I'm like fantastic. A platform as giant as Twitter, or Facebook, or YouTube. They are basically now the public square But privatized, how do we navigate that? How do we navigate the banning of Donald Trump? How do we navigate banning? Milo Yiannopoulos? How do we just all of that stuff? How do we navigate that in this kind of brave new world of gigantic tech platforms?

Adam Goldstein 50:18
So first of all, the easy part is obviously the law legally, they can do that, that and I think legally, they should be able to do that. I think it would be uncomfortable. And I think it would be flatly unconstitutional to require them to publish speech of people they don't like period. You can't just take a private companies platform and force them to speak, that's compelled speech. That's like forcing someone to, like, say the Lord's Prayer, you just can't do it. Got it. But from a free speech culture standpoint, and this is something I should have said earlier, is that you know, about this idea of like free speech law being enough. Well, Russia has a constitutional provision for free speech, North Korea protects free speech in their constitution. Turkey protects free speech and their constitution. These are places that imprison journalists like it like nothing. So having it in your law isn't enough to give it meaning. It's like the First Amendment means functionally, whatever we as a society, decide it means whatever meaning we give it, and I get nervous cheering for the idea that the First Amendment means the government can't silence you, but the private corporations can because I don't feel like the private corporations are more likely to be concerned with my well being than the government. I mean, I'm skeptical of the government, but I'm not It's not like I'm skeptical the government because I think Mark Zuckerberg is like my benevolent uncle. Yeah, right. Like, and I was seeing the same people, the same people who were saying that Russia was a was a malignant actor who corrupted our elections by buying Facebook ads are now saying that Facebook is good because they've been Donald Trump. This doesn't seem like an ideologically principled position. To me, I'm concerned that we think that it's bad if Russia buys an ad, because we might see the ad, but it's good if Facebook decides what we should or shouldn't see. And part of the thing that makes Donald Trump the wrong poster child for the conversation is because he's a he's a known, right? We know, even if you ban Donald Trump, we sort of know what that what he was going to post and what it's going to look like. The problem is once Facebook has the power to ban people, we don't know what else they're banning. So like, we can cheer for banning Donald Trump, but we don't know who else they've decided to ban.

Stephen Bradford Long 52:17
So I have several thoughts here. One is I work for a small locally owned business, my small locally owned business, we have freedom of speech, if we wanted to put a big gay pride flag in our window, we can do that if we wanted to put a Black Lives Matter flag we can do that there would be a lot of conservatives up here in the mountains who would fucking hate that but but we can do that. And that's fine. I guess what I'm hearing is that there's a problem of scaling. There's a problem of like, say my company becomes this massive, gigantic you know, we become like Microsoft, we spoke we start in my garage and then it scales up and and we become this monopoly that's when it becomes more challenging like because what applies equally to a tiny business applies to a gigantic business right? That's that's exactly the problem. So on the one hand, just as I think think through this out loud encroaching on the on the freedoms of a big business, could that come blow back to small businesses?

Adam Goldstein 53:23
That's that's certainly a fear. I mean, one of the things that that is interesting about this conversation is that we're we're putting like Amazon Facebook and Twitter in the same bucket in a certain sense. And one of these things are not like the others in that Amazon is huge. Facebook is huge. Twitter comparatively is

Stephen Bradford Long 53:42
not that huge. Yeah, only has like 2 million users or something right? So that yeah,

Adam Goldstein 53:47
I'm not super troubled by banning by banning Trump like yes there's a place where a lot of people have decided this is where we're gonna have the conversation but just the the difference in scope is just easy to see by the virtue of you know, parlor and gab popping up where's the alternative Amazon to the alternative Facebook right like there's I guess there's an alternative Facebook's out there but like alternative Amazon has anyone even trying to say well, I'm gonna make my own network backbone that's gonna write with me right

Stephen Bradford Long 54:15
so this is when my when my socialist comes out so I hear a lot of far leftists suddenly becoming massive libertarians when they talk about would they with this today suddenly, you know, suddenly all these far leftist become like massive libertarians like, oh, they you know, private businesses can do whatever the fuck they want. This is perfectly fine. This is perfectly fine.

Adam Goldstein 54:42
Like government paid health care, universal basic income and the private private businesses.

Stephen Bradford Long 54:50
Yes, exactly. And I'm just like, literally half a second ago. You were talking about workers rights. Literally half as half a second ago you were talking about anti trust, like how do I even want to begin to say this? Maybe I haven't had enough coffee today. Or maybe these ideas are just really super big and I'm struggling to wrap my head around them. I see when when Alex Jones was D platformed. A lot of people lost their mind. And what I wanted to say to them was Alex Jones being platformed is literally the least Orwellian Huxley in thing these platforms do to us. They track our every step, they track your skin tone to track your responses to ADS, they are manipulating you. They are hoarding your data and selling it to third parties with your kind of tacit permission, but only because you don't understand it that the amount of scary draconian shit that they are doing is mind boggling. Honestly, them banning Alex Jones is like, just the very tip of the iceberg. And then on the other hand to the leftists who, who were celebrating, and I was and I still am one of them. I'm like, yes, thank God, Alex Jones is gone. Praise jibbers. Like, that's fantastic. But at the same time, where do limit and protections within businesses that leftists and socialists are always talking about how does that fit in to this? And it's just like, I don't know, I I'm so ambivalent, I think it is totally reasonable to be ambivalent about the shutting down of parler, I think is totally reasonable to be ambivalent, deeply ambivalent, about Alex Jones being D platformed. Because, on the one hand, I'm like, I think this is good for society. On the other hand, I'm like, maybe, maybe it isn't, and maybe there are deeper problems within these businesses that would have to be addressed. I don't even know, what are your thoughts on that?

Adam Goldstein 56:50
Well, I can certainly as I'll take on the role of a cleric of the First Amendment and say that, I absolve you of your guilt for that tension, that normal and healthy, like, it is normal and healthy. Because because, and this is this is what a point that in terms of free speech, culture, I have to I have to make for people is that free speech, culture is not natural, like natural human order is, I'm bigger than you, and I'm going to beat the shit out of you until I get my way. That's what we did. That's what we did for many, many centuries. It's, it's, it's contrary to our instincts to have a free speech culture. And because it's contrary to our instincts, we're going to have those moments where bad things happen to bad people. And it's really, you know, every emotional response we have is going to be fucking good. Like, yeah, I was hoping something bad would happen to this guy was sick of him anyway. And then we have to go to the second step and say, you know, he may be pond scum. But even pond scum has a place in this first amendment culture we're trying to make. And that's where you get into compromises. And you get it you get into these difficult questions of, well, if, if I'm saying it's good that he's banned from this big platform, but I don't necessarily want them obliterated from the internet, because it's bad to have the power to obliterate people from the internet. How do we, how do we change the structure of our regulatory systems, so that it's possible for someone with a repulsive opinion, to have their own little corner, while still having the freedom for people who have businesses to kick them out? And to say, I don't like this guy, I don't want to be associated with this guy. And that's a legitimate concern for you know, anybody but I can't I can't cry for Amazon. But like, businesses that aren't quite at that scale, I understand that just because you know, you have 20,000 employees doesn't necessarily mean it isn't important to you to land the Gerber ads or whatever, that you're trying to keep yourself safe or safer. Taco Bell? Yeah, like,

Stephen Bradford Long 58:44
yeah. What do you think of the term hate speech?

Adam Goldstein 58:47
It's to me, it's, it's the same thing as as tolerant of intolerance is like who? Who decides what's hate? If hate just means that something I intensely don't like, then I intensely don't like lots of things, but I should be allowed to express that. I mean, there's an argument that like, because it, just like the domestic tranquility thing, there was an argument that civil rights marches were hate were hateful. Yeah. Right. They were saying, Oh, we hate we hate the government and we hate society. Because, well, you know, because it's institutionally racist, but that's still Hey, they still saying, hey, so are they're expressing a hostile feeling towards someone? Whoever has the power to diss whoever's the power is going to decide what hate means, right? And that's been true in Europe where there's been hate speech legislation, you see that everyone passes hate speech. And they all say, Oh, we're going to use it to protect the marginalized communities. And who do they go after they go after Palestinian activists, they go after people who call the leaders of the country names right there. They're not asking the government to take power to protect the marginalized just doesn't ever work.

Stephen Bradford Long 59:50
Yeah. And you know, there was something that you said a minute ago that I think is worth coming back to, which is free speech, culture. or, and just all the new nuances of that, like is our is me banning turfs from my Discord server of a freak free speech culture issue or not? I don't think it is. But it's interesting to have that conversation. Yeah,

Adam Goldstein 1:00:15
I mean, but you know, you have to decide what the purpose of your server is an if it can be served by having tariffs on it, and maybe it can't Yeah, but like the Free Speech culture also needs to have those second level Congress. Yes. Got Exactly. And this is actually why I can turn this around to to another example of fires work where we we opposed the Supreme Court's decision in Southworth, it was the case I'm thinking of where they they required cut wellness, it wasn't software there was was a Christian legal society, maybe they said that it was lawful for a college to have an all comers policy and require student groups to take all students

Stephen Bradford Long 1:00:51
and all comers policy, what does that mean? all comers policy

Adam Goldstein 1:00:55
means you can't, as a student group, have a restriction on who can join, okay. And this was a this was a Christian student group that said you can join the group, but you can't be leadership if you're not Christian. Like if you don't accept Jesus as your savior, you can't run the group. And the college said that's not good enough. You have to accept anybody Ha, as leader of the group.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:01:14
So I as you know, atheist, satanic, gay, I could become a leader in that group. Under this policy,

Adam Goldstein 1:01:24
they are required to accept you as a leader of the

Stephen Bradford Long 1:01:27
group. And that would make it not Christian anymore. That's the argument isn't

Adam Goldstein 1:01:30
I mean, and see why this is something we would oppose. Because when you make that rule, you think that's going to be the end of it, or no, of course not, because the turfs are going to join the trans group. Right? Exactly. Jews running the Muslim student organization, you're going to have Republicans running the Democrats, you're you're taking all of those necessary conversations that you can only have by getting people in like minded people in a room to have that conversation. And you're just derailing all of them. Do you read any actual conversations within your group?

Stephen Bradford Long 1:01:58
Okay, so that's really interesting. So, so free speech extends to allowing people to protect spaces to have what you call those secondary or second level conversations. That's

Adam Goldstein 1:02:10
freedom of association to Right, right. And that's called free speech. It's in the same in the same amendment. So yes, like you have to be able to free and free association by its nature means freedom to not associate freedom to disassociate, because otherwise that's not free association. Let's just everybody's required to associate with everybody

Stephen Bradford Long 1:02:27
the freedom to to Yeah, so the freedom for me to place the banhammer on someone that is me practicing my freedom of association on my Discord server. Exactly. Got it. Yes, that makes and your

Adam Goldstein 1:02:38
freedom of speech to it's like they they are where you can say, this is this is the place where we have the conversations about us this is this is us. Yes. When we go out there, we'll have the conversation with you. But here, this is us. I think

Stephen Bradford Long 1:02:49
that's fantastic. I think that's a very good way of articulating this. Now, let's talk some about stereotypes of left and right, because I feel like at least in the circles that I have run in free speech, just as a term as a concept has become a right wing term. I feel like it has become kind of cringe it's kind of cringe just kind of eye roll like oh, look at this chuck talking about free speech. You know, look at this rube this this, you know, right wing logic, bro. Talking about free speech, and, and it it elicits this cringe response, I think for a lot of leftists, and then the right perceives the left as being very anti free speech as as cracking down on on free speech and not believing in free speech. And as someone who works in this area, as someone who who lives and breathes this conversation is denial of free speech is trying to shut down other people's first amendment rights. Is that something that manifests exclusively on one side? Or is it a human problem?

Adam Goldstein 1:04:05
I'm glad you brought this up, because there's a big disconnect between the public perception of what's going on. And what's going on these answers that yes, it is definitely a universal human problem. I see censorship from every direction and the most common censorship is from no direction the most common censorship is about people in power who are inconvenienced by people not in power on the college campus. That means a student who said something that's uncomfortable for the administration. Hmm. You know, there was we just sent a letter today about Haskell Indian Nations University where the college president told a student reporter not to report because he was asking uncomfortable questions. And he's felt that asking these questions was disrespectful. I mean, that's an example of this isn't about left or right. This is about your pain to me, and I want you to be quiet. Yeah. And that's by far the most common. And this is a very mild defense of college administrators, but I should say it, nobody calls me to tell me what Great time they're having with their college administration, I only hear problems. It doesn't make it normative. That just means I only that's people just don't call me to tell me if everything's great problem there, I'm sure most administrators aren't like this, most are just fine. But within that, within that space, I hear just horror stories after horror stories about this power imbalance in terms of left and right. Part of that is driven by the demographics of the university. Okay, where if you go back 3040 years, right, 3040 years ago, free speech was something that the left talked about, it's the Berkeley Free Speech Movement at Martin Luther King flees actually was the left. It was it was on the right, where people were just so sick of hearing about this free speech, just you know, so that they can have their deviant lifestyles, everyone talk about free speech. Right? Well, that even then, universities were probably three liberals to one conservative in terms of their administration, because this was a job education was a job that has always attracted people who are concerned with relationships and individuals and development of human beings. And they tend to be slightly left of center, they're not necessarily concerned with states institutions or governments in the same way. Now that obviously, that's there's an asterisk because this some disciplines have been more conservative and others. heart surgeons tend to be more conservative jet pilots tend to be more conservative. These are places you probably want someone not to be too unusual of a thinker

Stephen Bradford Long 1:06:18
and attract what we want your itself. So I mean, there are places that just self select for certain personality types and certain personality types, like openness to experience, can can determine someone's kind of political affiliation. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Well,

Adam Goldstein 1:06:35
it's since the 70s, when it was about four to one right now, depending on disciplines, its overall, colleges are about 12 liberal faculty members per conservative, and depending on which discipline you're in, if you're in the social sciences, it's 44. Liberals per conservative, and most conservatives tend to be older and rotating out. The reason I bring this up is because the perception that the left is intolerant of free speech is a lot driven by the censorship on campus. And since on campus, it's the left that's in power more, you tend to see more censorship of conservatives in this one particular metric. If there's one particular alignment, that doesn't mean that there aren't there definitely are liberals being censored. They're being censored by conservatives, sometimes its liberal is being censored by further left liberals. But in general, there's just as much censorship coming from the right. It's just coming from off campus onto campus, right. And this is where you see the you know, a professor makes a joke, like, white genocide, white genocide, when I was thinking of the Babson professor who talked about the Ayatollah auto name 52 American cultural sites he's going to he's going to destroy right because the joke joke being Can you name 52, American cultural heritage sites, and conservatives came right for their heads and conservative Oh, you can't let them say this terrible thing. There was a Essex County College, it's a that's a New Jersey Community College where she went, the professor got terminated, essentially, because she went on Fox, I'm Tucker Carlson, and made fun of Tucker Carlson complaining that there was a black lives matter only Fourth of July bar barbecue. It's like, Oh, your white privilege card won't get you into this one thing, boo hoo, hoo. And, of course, on the right, people lost their mind and went after her. So the perception that there is no censorship coming from that direction, or that there isn't free speech, there isn't a free speech problem in absence of conservative censoring liberals is just, they're not physically on campus. So we don't see them as much, right. But there's just as much of that pressure coming. Because so much of this perception is driven by the snapshots we take of the campus and the campus is so overwhelmingly liberal. Liberal I mean, left, people on the left have power not that they're actually liberals, but that people with left ideology have power, they use it to suppress conservatives on campus. So it's a big miss. It's a big misconception, just by the, the alignments of these of these institutions.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:08:49
So basically, what I'm hearing you say is that it's about who's in power, and it's about human beings being empowered. This is what oh, yeah, human, this is what human beings do. This isn't exclusive to the right or to the left, or center. This is human behavior. This is a human impulse, which I think is why Greg Lukianoff you know, he has a blog called the eternally radical idea. And he explained that that phrasing which is free speech is the eternally radical idea. It is. It is this idea that is radical in all times in all places, because it is so contrary to our nature. Yeah, he

Adam Goldstein 1:09:27
has another term he uses called censorship gravity, and which is this idea that the higher you get in power, the more powerful that draw back into censorship is, hmm. Which is sort of how you explain you have figures like John Adams, being a founding father talking about liberty, and then the Alien and Sedition Acts up and well didn't have power when he was talking about liberty. He was talking about liberty when he was going against the powerful British. When he had powers suddenly the Alien and Sedition Acts happened. Now here's a list of things you can say about the government, as if he himself would not have been imprisoned.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:09:58
Right for the things he said about To the British, okay, for people who don't know, tell them what the Alien and Sedition Act is

Adam Goldstein 1:10:04
the the Alien and Sedition Act was, you know, the first Congress's immediate retreat from from Liberty, where there were a bunch of there was a fear of war with France. And to avert or to allay that concern, anyone who said anything that could have been construed as anti government could be detained indefinitely, right. So it's recognized today as one of the most monumentally unconstitutional things that government has done on par with internment camps in World War Two. And it's one you're looking for an example of times we didn't live up to our promise and a, you've moved past, you move past the basic premise of slavery. This is one of the top three or four things you would come up with is that, what could the First Amendment really have meant? If the Alien Sedition Acts were actually consistent with it. And of course, they weren't consistent with it. They were an example of somebody, somebody having great ideals when they didn't have the power. I will say modern historians have sort of redeemed John Adams a little bit, and they've kind of said, well, the steps he actually like, he did do this, but he didn't really use it against me. He himself never invoked it. He supported it, but he himself never actually imprisoned anyone. And his reputation was tarnished, in part because he negotiated with France to avert the war. And that was seen as being sort of like soft and disloyal. When in reality, he averted a war that would have cost 10s of 1000s of American lives, if not hundreds, so that in this weird way, he was bad on free speech, but kind of a hero. So, but that's the modern interpretation. Certainly. There's no question that the Alien and Sedition Acts were contrary to the First Amendment contrary to his free speech, culture.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:11:37
Yeah, absolutely. So I think this is a great note to end on just that, you know, free speech is uncomfortable, and that what's important is that we keep talking as as a culture as a community that having hard conversations is what it means to be human. And that we should just keep doing that. And it's

Adam Goldstein 1:11:57
okay to mess up is lovely, I would say, but it's, yeah, it's okay to get the line wrong. It's okay to not be sure you're doing the right thing. I think if we're if we try to be a good conscience, hear each other and care about each other, then we will make it through even if at times, you know, there's times when I in other context, I would censor somebody and you have to go back and say, you know, what I had, I had a gut reaction, and I went too far. And there's times where I didn't censor somebody. And I should have said, you know, what, you probably need to, you need to find a new newspaper to write for type thing where like this, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:12:24
I had an experience like that, actually, several weeks ago, where I did not practice the best judgment. And I had someone on my show, who said, things that I wish he hadn't said, or that I wish that I had responded to better, I'll probably do another show about that. And just kind of a post mortem. Yeah, it happens. This is all a work in progress. We're all figuring this shit out. And it is, it is entirely kind of counterintuitive to us. Like, it feels like we're co opting parts of our brain that were evolved for completely different purposes, to do this incredibly new exercise that, you know, is totally new in our human development, and the full scope of human history, this, this idea of speech and talking things through and all of that stuff, it is just incredibly new and incredibly challenging. And I'm still figuring it out. Yeah,

Adam Goldstein 1:13:17
I think we're all gonna be figuring out for the rest of our days and that the the one great virtue of free speech above the individual liberty, is that there's always a chance, you know, they always say there's always going to be someone smarter than you. my fervent hope is that people smarter than me come along, and have more refined ideas of how to actually live the liberty that I I'm trying to preserve for everyone, right. Like, I feel like the great virtue is, at least I'm not silencing the people smarter than me. If I'm wrong, they will come along.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:13:47
Absolutely. All right. Well, this has been great for people who are interested in your work. Where can they learn more about fire? Check out the fire.org Beautiful Yeah, everyone go check it out. It is super interesting. And by the way, I want to hear back from you if you agree, if you disagree, please go to my Discord server. Most of the conversation about my episodes and articles takes place on my Discord server. There is a link in the show notes you can also always leave a public comment on my website for this post at Steven Bradford long.com You can also write me an email just please don't send me death threats and or dick pics. All right, well, that is it for this show. As always, the music is by the jelly rocks and eleventy seven you can find them on iTunes, Spotify or wherever you listen to music. This show is written produced and edited by me Steve and Bradford long and it is a production of rock candy recordings as always Hail Satan, and thanks for listening

1:15:00
In this race guys for your time Kaden me so candy camera This world of deliberate run runs out of breath economic gets in and

1:17:47
gets in Chief

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-The Devil s Deathb1dai

2022-10-11T08:06:14Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

The_Devil_s_Deathb1dai
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
ritual, people, psychedelics, died, death, forgiveness, grief, book, satanist, life, grieving, feel, thinking, satanic, experience, forgive, michael pollan, read, satanists, process
SPEAKERS
Shiva Honey, Stephen Bradford Long

00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast. I am Avery Smith, and I am here to invite you to bless it are the binary breakers in multifaith podcast of transgender stories. Whatever your own relationship to gender and spirituality may be, you will find yourself enriched by the stories shared by my guests who so far have ranged in religion from Christian and pagan to Jewish, Sikh, atheist and beyond and have hailed from the US, Chile, Poland, Australia and more tune in wherever you get your podcasts or read along with episode transcripts by visiting blesses are the binary breakers.com See you there.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:02
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com. All right, well, before we start this episode, as always, I have to thank my patrons this week, I have to thank Paul and rabbit Waller, my patrons are my personal lords and saviors. And I truly could not do this without them. I believe in bringing these long, interesting conversations to you for free. But in order to do that, I need some help. A little bit goes a long way and makes this show sustainable. So to join my patrons number, go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long. For $1 $5 $3 a month you get extra content every week, access to my show House of heretics with the former minister from the Salvation Army, Timothy McPherson, we talk about religion, controversies, culture, film all kinds of stuff, and it helps support my show. Also, one of the best ways to support this show is to leave a review on Apple podcasts that tells our digital overlords that my show is worth sharing with others. So I'm going to read a recent review. This is from Knight Jacque from Great Britain. And they say I recently came across this podcast when looking for Lucien Greaves interviews. And I have never resonated more with someone's journey and beliefs around LGBTQIA plus experiences, mental health and personal belief systems. I'm currently working through the archives of shows and look forward to upcoming ones. Thank you. It's a very sweet review. And please, if you have a moment, just five minutes, go leave a positive review on iTunes. It really, really helps my show get discovered by new listeners. And finally, this show is sponsored by the satanic temple.tv. If you are into weird new religious movements, occult rituals, live streams, conversations, there's all kinds of fascinating stuff going on at the satanic temple.tv. And you can use my promo code sacred tension all caps, no space at checkout to get one month free. All right. With all of that finally out of the way, I am delighted to welcome Shiva honey back to the show.

Shiva Honey 03:46
Great to be here. Thank you for having me.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:48
Of course. So this is your third time on the show. And I just absolutely fucking love you. You're wonderful. And it's been way too long since we've talked.

Shiva Honey 03:56
Well back at you. Yeah, I'm always telling people like check Steve it out. He does such great work. I just feel like, you know, speaking of the podcast, the topics that you cover, your blogs, everything and they're they're so important, insightful and interesting. And I really appreciate what you do. So thank you.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:12
That's very sweet. I, I think the exact same thing about what you do. So for people who, for whom this might be their first exposure to you. Tell us some about who you are and what you do. Yeah, so

Shiva Honey 04:25
I am a member of the Satanic Temple. I've been part of the group since 2014. I was one of the founding members of the Detroit chapter, which was the first chapter of the organization. So after, you know, getting involved, I became a member of the International Council. So I've been a sort of the kind of leadership position. I was in a leadership position for a while and tsp, and then that shifted into starting to do rituals. I was for a while working on administrative and organizational stuff and then You know, after a couple of years of that got really into this idea of exploring ritual within this non theistic satanic context. So I, by that time, I had been practicing ritual in private quite a bit, specifically as a way for me to deal with PTSD anxiety of kind of being lost after I got out of a couple of bad relationships, and did some processing around my religious upbringing. And it really helped me center myself focus on my goals, work on, you know, disconnect from things that weren't serving me anymore. And finally, I think around 2018, I began, I was asked by the Satanic Temple to to do a black mass and performing baptisms at the temple. So I started doing that publicly. Then last year, I released a book about my experience with ritual that basically exists to talk about the benefits that it can have with people, even if you know, even if you aren't religious, and how to form your own ritual practice, give some examples of what I've done in what we've done with tst. And that's just kind of been my focus for the last couple of years. So I released that book last year, I released a deck, the devil's deck, which is a Satanic ritual deck, I call it kind of the first of its kind. And most recently, I've been focusing on death, sort of within that, that still that that big circle of virtual, but specifically, since I released the book, I have been getting a lot of feedback from people about, you know, asking you about what they can do about grief, any sort of rituals that can be done around death. And I got a couple of resources, but I really found myself wanting so I really dug deep into that, that this concept, how we can approach death in our work of Satanists, and I've been spending the last year really focused on on that subject. And so I'm working right now I'm finishing up this book, The Devil's death, your satanic companion to grief and dying, which is about that experience and talks about how we is non theistic Satanists, or people who are secular, or people who are just looking for something outside of what we have traditionally in our culture, how we can approach grief, how we can deal with the loss of those close to us, what, you know, sort of practically what we should be thinking about, while we're still alive, to preserve our memory, and to help people around us rituals we can use for death and grief and all this other stuff. So with COVID, and the loss that we're all feeling, this just seemed like a topic that I really wanted to dig into. And luckily, I've been able to put some time aside to to really investigate and, you know, try to try to come to an understanding of how we can do this in a way that really fits our values and beliefs. And it's healthy for us, you know?

Stephen Bradford Long 07:53
Yeah, it's kind of the perfect moment for it as well with the COVID pandemic. And so, you know, I've noticed this interesting thing with me lately, where it's, you know, maybe it's because I'm, I'm no longer in my 20s. And suddenly, it's like, oh, shit, I'm gonna die someday. But I will just find myself like reading in the living room at night. And the thought just goes through my head, oh, I'm going to die someday. And what do I do with that fact? You know, as as a non theist, as as someone who does not believe in God, and I think it is most likely that nothing happens when I die. But I'm, I'm agnostic on that point. But I lean towards nothing happens when I die. So you know, as as non theists, who don't have the reassurance of an afterlife, I've been finding myself thinking about death more and more lately, I would say on a near daily basis, and it isn't a dour thing. Right. Like it isn't a morbid thought. It's just a fact. It's just a part of my life. Now thinking about death. Not not necessarily in a negative way. Yeah. Yeah. You were going I heard an open parenthesis. Yeah, no,

Shiva Honey 09:15
I feel the same way. I think, you know, this, I think since I became a Satanist. And when I separated from I was I was raised Christian, very conservative. We, we've talked about this in past episodes, but when I separated from that, it, I wouldn't say left a void, necessarily, but there was like, you know, certain, a certain. I mean, there's obviously a belief system that I held at one point, right, and that was gone. So it's like, What do I like? What am I focused on as a, as a person who's trying to be a good person? What do I focus on? Also with somebody who knows that they're going to die? And this is, you know, I grew up with this belief that the best comes after you die. So switching that on its head and being like, Well, yeah, now I don't think anything like you. I liked what you said, feeling agnostic to the x what happens after but leaning toward nothing. It's like, well, what do I do with that information? Now and the answer that I came to, especially through doing the ritual work and focusing on for the first time in my life when I wanted, it was like, Well, how do I build a life that really feels like I'm living to my full potential? And that's kind of been my satanic journey, I feel like, and the question that I've been working on answering since I became a Satanist. But yeah, it's like, that becomes such a present question. And I think with the pandemic, like you were saying to, it's like, we see this with the job resignations that are have happening with people shifting, you know, their lives completely around now that we've got this bubble around, everything being okay. And going, that life is going to keep on going forever. And I think a lot of that's been destroyed for people over the last year because of the loss and tragedy that has come with the COVID pandemic. And so now people are like, alright, well, especially I think our generation, like, what, what can I do now to make the most out of what I've the time I do have here? And yeah, and that's a great question to ask. And I think it's something that we weren't really prepared to answer growing up, I think the way that we did you know, absolutely,

Stephen Bradford Long 11:02
because, you know, this is something that I've thought a lot about how when I first started to give up my faith, hello, kitty, meow. Yeah, we're surrounded by cats. Right? Hey, me, too. I, you know, I've Satanists in our cats. There. We have so many and every single like, Zoom meeting that I have with with Satanists, there's so many cats. It's kind of wonderful. It is wonderful. So, but you know, something that I've been thinking about quite a bit is when my faith started to die. You know, when I when I started to, to lose my Christian faith, I realized I don't think I realized until years later, how big of a grieving process that was, because essentially, what I was doing was grieving for eternity. grieving for the loss of an afterlife grieving for the loss of an eternal afterlife. That's a huge, an unspeakably huge leap to go from, I'm going to live forever, to know I'm going to live for If I'm lucky, 80 plus years, 70 plus years, right? That is an unspeakably literally infinitely huge leap. Right? And, and yet, how there so there comes the challenge of how do we deal with that? But also, how can we still integrate wisdom and ritual into the reality of death, right, like we, because so much of the ritual surrounding death has to do with that eternal life has to do with a pass. It's almost like a rite of passage from this life to the next. And so much of so much of the ritual that our culture is handed to, you know, so much. So much of the ritual that our culture has handed to us is like that rite of passage. That so it sounds like the kind of ritual that you're coming up with is how do we confront our mortality in a way that is positive and empowering. But not a rite of passage? Does that make sense? Am I making any sense?

Shiva Honey 13:31
No, no, no, you are? Yeah. And in the book, and the ritual section for the book is going to be huge. I think we're already like, 50 pages for it. But like, Yeah, I mean, that's, that's a big part of it, the ritual that I've been working on the rituals that I've been working on for this book, a lot of it is about grief, which is, I think, something that presents us, we're presented with that kind of daily basis, really, but there's ways that we can use ritual to focus on to let go of it, to use it to understand more about ourselves. But then the other part is what you're saying, you know, and I was just having a conversation with a friend about this recently. But it's, you know, coming up with ceremony and ritual, which we know is from a scientific perspective, helpful, very helpful with people, for people dealing with grief, that doesn't necessarily have to rely on tradition, or superstition, or, you know, that works for us, which is, I think, something that previous generations just didn't think about maybe as much as we are thinking about this now. But like, I think there's just this expectation that when somebody dies, we have to do you know, XY and Z, X y&z has to happen, we have to have the sort of ceremony, we have to do this with their bodies, or we have to do this with our bodies. And it just I think, as Satanists especially, you know, we can wake up to the reality that that just doesn't apply to us. And there's so many other ways to approach death from a ritualistic perspective that can fit, fit our values and fit what our needs are, and don't rely on you know, these tradition. Should all these traditional just ways that people have dealt with this in the past? So it's like a really interesting, I think it's something really interesting to explore. And that was the book, like I'm really inviting people to think about, because it can be, you know, I think the way that we confront death as a whole, I guess, society, and I guess, from my perspective, I'm talking about, like, you know, on the society, Western society is not so healthy. You know, we, we live in a world that's, you know, run by capitalism and white supremacy. And we don't, we don't offer much space to grieve all the things that we're suffering with on a daily basis, the trials and tribulations that people have gone through, not to mention death, it's just something that we're supposed to put on the backburner. I actually saw some tweets recently about somebody, it was a conversation between a person and their boss saying that, you know, I'm taking tomorrow off because my, my uncle died or something, and the boss is telling them, No, you have to actually just go to work. You know, my, you know, my cousin died two weeks ago, I didn't take any time off. So you just this, just this idea that, you know, we have to grieve, and we have to confront death in this very, very limited context. I don't think we have to do that anymore. If and I think if COVID has taught us anything, it's that we really need to start thinking about other ways to integrate grief and death into our lives in a way that, you know, honors, honors, awesome, the people around us.

Stephen Bradford Long 16:24
How much of that also just has to do with the fact that we're so underexposed to death? Yeah, like the fact the fact is, the reality is, death is everywhere. I mean, it, it's everywhere, but it's invisible. You know, in every family, someone's dying, and, you know, it's it's everywhere, and in, but we kind of shut it away, we put it away and old folks homes, we get a wise death. And there's, and we're just very, very resistant to thinking about it. So then when we are confronted with grief, when we when we, you know, when our cousin does die, and we do have to take time off work, then the the end result is we have a world we have a structure, a culture that just cannot handle it, like just cannot deal with the reality of death at all. Same with mental health. Same with, you know, just all of these things that we don't have the bandwidth for culturally. What God Yeah, absolutely. What what started this project for you like, what, what made you Was there a catalyzing event? Or was it just something that was brewing? Yeah, I've

Shiva Honey 17:45
been thinking about this, actually, like, what, how this all started up. So I have a friend who has actually helped us co writing the book with me, Betty, and she's a biologist.

Stephen Bradford Long 17:57
Oh, one more time, your your audio just got it.

Shiva Honey 18:01
Sorry. I said She's a PhD biologist. And she's also a Satanist. And she was diagnosed a few years ago with incurable disease. So she started it, she doesn't know how much time she's going to have. And she reached out to me because she knew the work that I did and was like, Yo, can you help me? Work on my end of life plan? And can you help me work on you know, phenol, virtual aspects of that as well. And I think that was like that was actually just before COVID started in 2020. So that was like, February. So I started talking to her about this. And we started going back and forth, as she writes in everything. And she has a, you know, a great wealth of information. And she's helped. She's helped edit my other book, actually, and the doubles team. So you're going back and forth. And we came up, you know, we initially kind of played around with this idea. Like, maybe that's something we can write about. I don't I'm not sure if we conceptualize it as an entire book at that point. But then COVID happens. And, you know, we kept on talking about it. And I kept on getting messages from people that had read the devil's tome that, you know, I have a couple of rituals that can be used for grief and death in that book, but it just people just kept on asking and asking and asking. So I started thinking about doing more on that. So it can continue to read 2020. And then I'm gonna add a friend of mine, a close friend of mine died at the end of 2020. And I really didn't know, I think for the first time I like actually had a little bit of space to grieve, a death, which I don't think I'd had before. It seems everything seemed very surreal to me previously, and that would just hit me really hard. And I didn't know what I was supposed to say. Or how to deal with it or how to support you know, their family. And that, you know, so in the midst of this conceptualization of the book, I decided that I would also I would become a death doula. So and that tool is somebody who it's, you know, I think throughout the world, there have been people who've served those roles but in the contract For the West, I think it's a relatively new phenomenon. And the death doula like the birth doula is somebody who's typically who companions a person or their families or both through the dying process and the sort of the jobs they can do can range from, you know, emotional support to practical planning to, you know, a leading a ceremony or ritual for the family to, you know, day to day kind of hospice work. It really kind of, it's a large spectrum of what you can do as a death doula, but I really wanted to, to do a program like that. So I could understand better from that perspective, you know, what options are out for people? What the best research the saying the best, you know, the best reach searcher saying about death in grief, how to deal with it, like what the common human experiences, what's helpful to people what's not helpful, legally, and practically, you know, what can be done? So? So yeah, I mean, we started writing the book in 2020. But it really got steamrolling earlier in 2021. And yeah, it's picked up speed, throughout this past year, but it just, it seemed like after the devil's tone, people wanted the most, were more more rituals and more discussion about death. And I think it's just like the devil's tome. And pretty much everything I create, it's, it came from my own need. If you think again, I needed to understand and learn about my own selfish person. And in in learning about it for myself, I, you know, decided that I wanted to share it with other people. And it seemed like something, you know, really, really needed by the community. So I just, I felt really passionate about it, and I just get the sparks. And I just, you know, Dove Dove in deeply. So for the past, I guess, like, Yeah, almost two years, I've been on this journey of figuring the book out and slowly, slowly, but surely putting it together and doing the work behind the scenes to try to start to answer these questions or explore these questions and open other people's mind up to it. So. And interestingly enough, on this journey, I was actually coming back from Salem road trip out there, and it was early September, and on the way back, my so I've had two dads, I've had a stepdad he died, he was terrible. And I said, another status is terrible with my biological dad, as I was reading this chapter on grief, he actually got a call while I was on the circuit coming back home from Salem that he got. So this this chapter from kind of a clinical perspective, because that's my background, prior to sit and work is working in healthcare and working kind of as a patient advocate, but also doing translational research. And I was reading this thing from like, a very clinical perspective, and like looking at the research, and then all of a sudden, my dad died like a couple of weeks ago, really. And that just shifted, like the focus of so much of the book for me. So it's just this organic thing that keeps growing with what I'm experiencing at the moment and seeing other people deal with. And, yeah, it's still on the journey. But it's been really challenging. And like we agreed and can't seem sad. But it's also been I don't know, it's been very, very much a healing experience for me to go through this and to understand and I think for Betty, too, she's reading a little bit from experience, you know, in the medical, the medical industry experience as a biologist and understanding of human life, from her experience, you know, trying to work with providers and trying to protect her body from, you know, the burdens that the healthcare system wants to put on it. So I think for both of us, it's been pretty cathartic and very reflective of our lived experience over the last year. So

Stephen Bradford Long 23:38
Wow. So your, your father just passed away then?

Shiva Honey 23:42
He did. Yeah. And so this was I just spoke about this at the estate. Actually, that was a fun journey. Because I was like, we've seen a presentation and crying during it and everything. But yeah, that he was one of my abusers. So it was we've been out of contact for a long time. And then he just, I am blocked his number, because going to do a program, one of the things they talk about a lot is forgiveness, which is something that I'm going to talk about a lot in the book about how I disagree with like, you know, a lot of the common wisdom around that. But I was like, you know, people were reading all these books about the end of life and like how people connect him and you know, he's old, I don't know, how much longer is going to be around, maybe I'll try to reach out maybe as long as if it's my problem, you know, and that has been a hassle. And so he reached out to me on my birthday this year, and basically told me I was crazy and asked for money. And I was like, We blocked and then I get that call, but he died and I had to decide I was the only remaining family so I had to be the person that decided what happened to him and like what to do with his estate and everything. So that whole thing was very complicated for me and very, very, very hard. And yeah, that was just within the last month like I had to go through all that process and you know, as a doula as somebody who's a certified death doula now I'm like, Okay, I should have these answers. But you know, going through it yourself. It's totally different experience. And so I'm looking forward to like speaking on that a lot. And also speaking to specifically on these topics that are like kind of controversial, and even in the death doula community, people aren't talking about, you know, I think there's this idea that like, you know, death is beautiful and death is, you know, people who are dying are precious, and you should reconcile with people. And, you know, there's like, all of us, I feel like moral, like, a lot of mental projection that happens around us. And the truth is, though, you know, it's so open. And it's, you know, if you're somebody that's having to deal with somebody who's done interviews, your viewers or, you know, you have to be you're asked to be involved in this process for them, like, my, my answer continues to be that you don't have to actually be a part of the process. And talking a lot in the book about, you know, how to deal with difficult deaths, and like, rituals you can do to separate yourself, you know, because that's something I'm I still PTSD from her my relationship with him and my other dad died a couple years ago. So it's just, it's very complicated, very complicated. And I found that out very, very, very, very much in a personal way, you know, a couple of weeks ago when he died, and figuring out how to navigate these situations is a lot, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 26:07
let's, I'm really interested to hear your perspective on forgiveness in the context of death. Because, you know, this, this is something that I, you know, probably like you I was raised in kind of a culture of coercive forgiveness, like forgive or out, you know, and it goes back to what Jesus said, and I forgot which gospel this was, but where he says, you know, those who forgive will be forgiven by me. And so which is kind of like a strong arming forgiveness. Like if if you if we don't forgive those who, who hurt and abused us than God won't forgive us. And the end result of that, of course, is we go to hell, so you know, you know, coerced? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, totally. It's totally coercive, coercive forgiveness. What is your personal satanic perspective on forgiveness, and death? Like, how do you navigate that? And I don't, and I don't even expect you to have like an answer to that. Like, how, but but how? What has that journey been like for you?

Shiva Honey 27:24
Yeah, this is actually something I've been thinking about a lot, just forgiveness in general, as a concept, I created a card in the devil's deck about forgiveness, which has been pretty popular with people, but it's kind of turning the concept of forgiveness, traditional forgiveness, the kind of course of forgiveness that you were talking about earlier on a TED. So for me, it's something that I don't feel, I guess, and I'm speaking for myself as like, you know, 30 something year old person that hasn't lived life a certain way and had certain sorts of experiences, but in probably my field will change on it in time. But for me, I think that just generally speaking, the forgiveness that I'm most interested in, personally, and as a Satanist, personal forgiveness, I'm interested in figuring out how I can infer my lived experience how I can fully myself last and how I can, you know, forgive myself for mistakes I've made, because I also think that's part of like the reconciliation process. And I think that's part of you becoming you growing as a person is to not be to not be trapped and shame and guilt and that sort of thing. But from like an interpersonal perspective, I think that forgiveness isn't something that we have to choose necessarily focus on. I think that, for me, the the way that I've been able to survive some of the abuse that had happened, and even now, like, the complicated relationships that I still have with people is through, you know, kind of sticking to my guns, and I'm very, very, very, very strict, no personal boundaries, where I used to have no, and I don't allow people back in my life that have wronged me, I don't forget what people have done, that's hurt me. I, I actually hold those experiences very, very close to me. And, you know, perhaps, that's toxic sometimes. But I also feel like it's a way of protecting myself, I was laying in bed this morning. I think it's a way of self protection for me. And I think with death, I don't think forgiveness is necessary. There's, you know, a lot of again, I have limited lived experience, a lot of people who write about death, talk about reconciliation, as you know, people come together at the end of life and how there's reconciliation and how there's this beautiful process for things to align. And things just seem to clear up really easily and I just haven't had that lived experience. And I don't think it should be, you know, that's something that we should be pushing on ourselves. And I think especially a lot because a lot of us have come from like very traumatic backgrounds and have had like really complicated relationships. I mean, every human has, but I think as a Satanist, you typically, the relationships you tend to have are a lot more adversarial or at least recognized. Is adversarial than a lot a lot of people have, or like want to admit to themselves about. So, for us, I think it's a, it's a special problem. And I think that I don't think that forgiveness is necessary. I think that for our own mental health, just, I think being able to refocus on ourselves, and until I guess you could use the word heal or like grow personally, is more important to me as a Satanist than again, like reconciling with outside people. I think holding on to grudges and anger isn't necessarily healthy. But it's part of the process of just being able to survive, these things have happened and learn. And I think from my personal perspective, with my like, my dad, for instance, and my stepdad like, I never forgave them, and I never will, and I, with my dad, even, even with that whole thing, that was a huge mess that he lost. He literally, I don't think we can get to the detail that you want to know. But like it was such a big mess, and I just divested from him completely. I didn't. You know, there was no, we had spoken in a long time. I wasn't around when he was he died suddenly I wasn't around when that happened. But, you know, it's, I can try to understand where he was coming from maybe, but it's not, you know, I don't think he ever asked for my forgiveness. He never wanted it. I don't particularly think it's important to think about that at this point. And I think ultimately, as a Satanist, whatever makes you feel better. Like whatever you can live with whatever makes you feel better, whatever brings you some sort of pieces, the answer, and I don't think that we should feel obligated to reconcile with people or forgive them or wrap things up in a tidy bow once people dire are dying.

Stephen Bradford Long 31:42
Yeah, life isn't a Hallmark movie. I mean, there's, there's so much, I don't know, just so many thoughts. And emotions came up for me listening to you talk. So you know, to kind of share some of my story. And this is something that I don't talk about very much publicly both when I was 19 years old, I was in a shooting when I was when I was a missionary. And I mean, I was literally right there at a mass shooting. Two of my friends were killed right in front of me. And, and I saw it, you know, I was right there. And the the PTSD destroyed me. I remember the week, it happened. The missionary community that I was part of all gathered in the hallway, where my two friends were killed. And we were told on the count of three, shout the words I forgive you. See, you know, and at the time, it felt kind of awesome and brazen. But looking back, I realized that's just not how grief works. The the rage at the gun men needed to be worked through. And in a context like that. The word forgiveness. It's like, I almost don't even know what what that word means. Oh, hold on, my cat is pushing the mic around. It's like, I don't even know what that word means. What does forgiveness even mean? Does it mean not holding the acts of someone against them? That doesn't quite feel right to me because it's like, no, people, people have responsibility for their actions. I don't want to remove responsibility from anything from from anyone. On the other hand, does forgiveness mean? Not letting you know for forgetting the harm, you know, for allowing that harm to be forgotten? I don't want to forget that. I don't I don't want to forget to the the brutality because I feel like that would be disrespectful to my friends who died. I don't want to forget their final moments. And then on the other hand, is it not letting not letting this event control my life? That I'm more down with? Right? Yeah, absolutely. But but in a way I just don't know what the word forgiveness even means.

Shiva Honey 34:28
You bring up such a good point like this is literally I mean, we talk about it all the time but it's such a weird concept. Yeah, and like I think all everybody kind of understands it differently. But yeah, and having the church having you do say those things right after your friends your shot. It's like what does that even mean? Like how can that how can the brain even process that exactly?

Stephen Bradford Long 34:49
Suits me. Exactly. And, you know, I I can, I can say, you know, I can try to practice compassion Shouldn't for the gunman while not accepting, while still condemning what he did, you know, but that that, that isn't something that I have to do. And it isn't something that that happens immediately. But that, to me, is different from forgiveness. I don't know what I'm saying. I absolutely. And I can say, you know, I can try to understand his inner landscape, but understanding isn't forgiving understanding isn't condoning, like I can try to understand I can even maybe try to have compassion on parts of his life without condoning or accepting or any of those things. And so what I'm, and I can come to live my life where that trauma no longer shapes me, no longer is a shadow over my life, and I can just move on and live a full life, which I feel like I have. But even that is, do you see what I'm saying? It's like, I don't I don't know what that word means. Like, none of those things Ness necessarily strike me as forgiveness.

Shiva Honey 36:05
Yeah, I'd like to be in the Christian context to like, I forgive you. And then that's describing it's like, can you it's almost like a saying it's okay. And I guess here, too, I mean, what we've gotten all the time is that people are alive back, or, you know, things are covered up. Like another big part of my story in the church, nothing's being covered up, like wrongs being covered up. Oh, yeah, well, just the idea of givenness, which is just, instead of it being something that's like, practical or helpful, it just becomes an excuse to to use that behavior continuing to hide the sins of the clergy, or whatever it is. And, to me, forgiveness, too, is something that was wielded a lot by my mom, and, you know, it's still something, we have issues, still to this day, but you know, she would always say, you know, just, I'm, she's like, I'm forgiving myself for what happened, and I, I forgive bla bla, bla bla, and you know, you should just forgive. And to me, that whole thing is, it's all about forgiving and forgetting. And it's, it's about just, I don't know, it seems kind of weak. And it seems, it seems like it's a way to re victimize myself. A lot of times, I think your your context, similar, but quite different, you know, from a lot of my personal experience, but to me, it's just, I don't know, it's just the core concepts absurd, and the fact that we're continuously tucked at, to forgive whether it's in a Christian context, or I think culturally in general, and if we're looking into like spiritual movements, or you know, self help, it's like, dude, I'm such an overabundance of people telling you that that's something that you have to focus your energy on. And I just, it's like, what is even like you said, What does it even mean? And how is this actually helping me at all? Like, yeah, like, it's time to grieve? Like, what about stuff?

Stephen Bradford Long 37:51
What about, say, post? One of my favorite phrases lately has been post traumatic growth? Like, what about let's get, what about that? Like, what about saying, you know, putting the emphasis on No, I'm going to be as totally authentic in this grief and rage as I possibly can be? What about that? What if the, what if the emphasis was on that? I mean, of course, gently, you know, some of us, you know, some of us need to go up the mountain and not look at that grief for a while, because it might be too overwhelming. And that's, that's also part of the process, right? But, but what if, instead of forgiveness? What if we were to reframe it as no, let's, let's, let's embrace to, within reason, the fullness of the grief and rage. And all of the feelings that come with that, let's just feel them. Like, what if? What if that were to be the case instead of let's forgive and put this all away? Yeah, I feel like that would be so much more helpful. And so talk some about the role of ritual in this process. How does how does ritual play a role here?

Shiva Honey 39:15
Yeah, I mean, I guess with forgiveness or grief specifically. For me, it's played a big role in helping me disconnect. I think one of the things I think I've been thinking about this a lot, because I think one of the ways that we harm ourselves most is and I can see, I can see the wisdom and forgiveness quote, unquote, in certain ways. Yeah. So this idea of, of disconnecting from people or experiences that were harmful, that aspect of forgiveness, which you know, is very broad I can agree with, and I think that's where ritual comes in. For me. I think the way that we end up the way that I end up hurting myself a lot is holding on, like replaying old things in my mind old situations, old abuses, getting really angry, and there's nothing wrong with getting angry, I think Whether or not you want to work through it, that's all up to you. And I think anger can be a very transformative powerful tool that's in our toolbox. But so for me, ritual, ritual can be a way to channel anger, it can be a way to help me process relationships and separate from, you know, things that I want to separate from, it can be a way for me to process grief, that's a huge one. So a couple of the rituals in the book are specifically about you know, processing grief after sort of, like a complicated death, like the one I was describing with my dad, you know, like, after he dies, just like, you know, taking think of him and his legacy and the fact that he's actually dead, which is, like, really difficult to process to me. Even, I guess, in the context of people who were my abusers, it's like, even though they're dead, they're, you know, those memories and like, the pain and everything still continues, I still have bad dreams and PTSD, you know, symptoms from things that happen by people who are now dead. So it's like, how do I work through those sort of, sort of aspects of my life. And so ritual comes in and can help with that. So that's been, that's been huge for me. And that's, I think that's really helped me, you know, whether I'm going through, I'm going to be talking about this next month, I'm going to release one of the rituals that I have in the book burn, but just one of the most effective rituals for me, in dealing with my dad, or my stepdad has been to just like, you know, write down the aspects of things that they said to me that were cruel things that keep on popping up in my head, I feel like their voices are still there, sometimes. Things that I that, you know, made me think about myself that I don't think are true or hurtful, just like writing all those things down and like taking evening to just like, think about them a lot and like, get really upset about it angry, and then just burn it. And that, to me, doing those sorts of things have really helped me work through anger and grief, and all the complicated feelings that I have around those people. But yeah, and that's gonna be one of the rituals in the book. And the other is just, of course, you know, rituals for remembering people that were dear to you, which was, you know, how to put your own funeral together, how to do it for other people, like doing all these other ceremonial things that we typically do when people die. So just leaving a lot of options and examples for, you know, what you can do, if you want to engage in ceremony or ritual.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:28
You know, it's almost like these, you know, thinking of just traumatic experiences, or heartbreaking experiences, those are full bodied experiences. I mean, even even like a breakup, I mean, it feels like your whole body is broken. If you know the heartbreak it, it really feels like you were broken, and then it's all but then it's like, so as ritual ritual can be a full body experience. And I don't know, there's almost a sense of counteracting one full body experience with another or something, it's, and you know, I don't want to get, you know, there, I feel like there's a lot of pseudoscience around stuff like, you know, the body holding on to trauma and all that kind of stuff. And I don't necessarily want to go there, but there is real power in in engaging the full body and a healing practice, like a ritual, you know?

Shiva Honey 43:28
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, when I was so you know, coming for me as a person who's reading this book, when my dad died, and again, like, I just like wrote down all the different symptoms that have happened and for like, two or three days after he died, I felt like I was gaping wounds, like physically. And I also realized that what I was feeling was very familiar. And I thought about it, and I realized that I'd really been grieving during this really heavy grieving around my dad, you know, around the time I became a satanist and started to separate and become estranged from him. So I was, I was having these, you know, my stomach was hurting constantly. I was having these feelings of like extreme weakness, just crying all the time. Flashbacks. Like all that stuff was happening at that moment after he died for days, and that had also been going on for like, probably a year or so after once I decided to separate from him and actually process what was going on. So yeah, I mean, your body there, there's no doubt that your body, your mind, and body, emotions are all connected together. And there's a real physical aspect to everything that we experience emotionally and psychologically. I definitely think that for me, ritual is most effective when I'm able to engage my senses and to be physically active and that's why I think putting together elaborate rituals and becoming really physically engaged and centrally engaged in the process can really help kind of reprogram your brain which is basically what I guess I would short, say ritual does is it Helping you reprogram your thought process and reconnect some wires connected and put you in a different mind frame in when you're approaching reality and your human experience.

Stephen Bradford Long 45:14
This is going to be a really, really, really weird question and might seem completely out of the blue. I have been fascinated by the research into psychedelics as a tool through end of life therapies. And I mean, the the research, like out of John Hopkins is has just been so incredibly powerful. Were psychedelics being used in the context of like, depression, grief, intense anxiety, trauma, and then end of life and just the results have been stunning. And for anyone listening who's curious about this, go read Michael Pollan's book, how to change your mind. Have you consider and this is a touchy question, because you know, the, you know, but have you? Have you thought any about the integration of psychedelics into satanic ritual? Hmm. Is that something that your mind has has ever gone towards? And if so, what the ethics of that would be like? I don't know, is that just, it's something that I've been thinking about? And so I guess I just kind of like want to open a door to that discussion.

Shiva Honey 46:40
Yeah, I mean, I get asked about this a lot, actually. And I Okay, I always I'm kind of I try to publicly be pretty

Stephen Bradford Long 46:48
Oh, say that say that one more time.

Shiva Honey 46:51
I tried to be kind of, you know, I don't talk about it a lot. Because there are legal, there's still legal ramifications for absolutely psychedelic use and that sort of thing. But in a religious context. I mean, I think it could be powerful. I think it could be dangerous, too. I think that one of the things that I say when people start doing ritual, and I've said this in a couple of my presentations before is that I think the ritual is best practice, when you have somebody, like a sort of therapeutic guide for you, like a therapist, or somebody you're working with already, if you are going to be engaging in deep ritual. And I would think the same thing, if people are going to be if people would be engaging in psychedelics, I think, I don't know, I don't, I think on a personal level, like, I think that that makes, I think it makes sense for people to experiment, I definitely think I, you know, read a lot of that research, and I've had lived experience that reflects that, I think you can have very powerful experiences with those sort of the sort of tools at your side. But I do think there can be I think it could be something potentially dangerous at like a media community level and that community level, but like in a group setting, you know, what I mean? Or I think maybe the personal religious practice that could make sense. And if you're with people who are experienced, and you know, you have good relationships with in a therapeutic setting, I think you could integrate all those things, if you're in a state or, or working with some people in a therapeutic setting, where those could be integrated. But I know a lot of people who've gotten into ritual who have sort of lost their minds in the process. And I think a lot of them have also, that is also usually connected with super heavy drug use. So I'm always a bit scared about that. But I do think there's promise and, you know, responsibly integrating, that sort of like psychedelics or other substances into individual practice. I mean, it's been done for, you know, millennia at this point. And I think, to profound effect, but I think it's something you know, hopefully something down the line, we could talk about more, but I think just going in with care is important. I think for me personally, too. I had, you know, experiences with psychedelics that have helped me, I think really early on in my journey, actually, even before I became a Satanist, that really opened up my mind and like, made me think about my life differently in the world differently, provided to be a very important healing catalyst. But once I once I actually started being more serious about my ritual practice, I stopped, I stopped engaging with it, because that ritual actually took this space to the space and like, gave me the insights that psychedelics had previously given. So for me personally, I don't do that anymore. And I don't know, it's probably a personal experience, more of a personal sort of story, but I feel better about just kind of engaging ritual. And that really...

Stephen Bradford Long 49:41
you you feel better about or you feel better about engaging ritual say that one more time.

Shiva Honey 49:47
Oh, yeah. Engaging in ritual without the aid of psychedelic personally at this point, and something it's something to that for me, I guess, rituals, almost taking the place of where psychedelics used to be the thing that I did to like get to a certain place mentally and like work through things cuz this to me now is the process ritual serves. Yeah, so I don't know, it's interesting, but I just I always just get nervous, you know, people come up to me I've done at events when people come up and ask about it. And I just, I'm always just wary. Ya know, I think that you have to be careful with

Stephen Bradford Long 50:18
all that stuff. You know, I, I feel really similarly. And part of the reason why I bring up the question is because one of my favorite writers, Michael Pollan, who's been writing quite a bit about psychedelics lately. He says that the federal government is, is starting to take more of a hands off approach with the war on drugs, because it's been such a catastrophic failure, and so they're just taking their they're just taking their hands off with, and what that means is that psychedelics are coming to our culture in a, in a, in a big way, down down the line, and I think that's accurate. I think that's true. And, and so, you know, psychedelics are coming like that, that, you know, magical freight train is, is going to hit us. And it's worth kind of thinking preemptively about the integration, about the, about how we're going to approach psychedelics, because I can't imagine that it isn't going to happen to some degree within the satanic community. Like it's going, You know what I'm saying, like, it's, and so but I, but I also totally share your instincts, like, on the one hand, it's incredibly powerful, can be incredibly powerful for like, grief and end of life stuff, and so on. My personal, I feel like my personal mental makeup is such that I'm so wellness is such a fragile state for me. And, and being well, mentally is such a fragile state for me that I'm so cautious about anything that might disrupt that. And so psychedelics personally, like completely terrify me. And, and I'm, and so it sounds like, meditation is for me, what ritual is for you? And in that it kind of does that does for me, what, what? Psychedelics, I guess could do?

Shiva Honey 52:30
Yeah, yeah, I would say, yeah, probably, we're in a similar place. And the same thing with this idea. I think I when I was engaging, you know, when that idea was more appealing to me, it was during a time where I was really looking for answers. And yeah, and I do think that it's something that we should explore religiously, when I think about the way most people I guess, because of the war on drugs, and because of the taboo nature and the cultural nature of psychedelics in the United States. From that perspective, a lot of times when people engage, it's from a recreational point of view. And it's not, you know, it's not very controlled, and it's kind of a roller coaster of things. So I think if we were to engage it, I think if institutionally as the temple or whatever, groups of Satanists or ministers, or whatever it is, started to think about these questions, you know, the way that people have formally, it seems to me integrated those things into religious practices through through formal structures, and there's like, guides, and there's, there's, you know, rituals that have been like, set in stone for hundreds of 1000s of years that are done with it. And I think that's the sort of thing that maybe, from an institutional perspective, we could start thinking about, but there's, yeah, there's a lot that has to happen. I feel like there's a lot of, we're still learning so much, I have to check out that book. I hadn't, I hadn't read it, but I had seen a lot of the research because it was always interested in healthcare, healthcare field. You know, there's just a lot of, I think there's a lot of good that could come from it, but it just, we have to figure out how we would, you know, integrate that into everything else.

Stephen Bradford Long 54:05
Yes, absolutely. And I don't even you know, bring up this question saying that we should, but, but, you know, just that it's worth thinking about, like it's worth, it's worth contemplating, because I can't imagine that psychedelics aren't going to start being integrated into ritual either within the satanic community or just more broadly, in, in our in our culture, right, like it, it's coming, it's going to come and it's and I mean, I figured like your is your maybe the best person I know of to ask you, you know, to bring this topic up with since since you're kind of an expert in ritual, so I hope that that question doesn't seem like too weird or out of left field,

Shiva Honey 54:50
but I think it's like it's very, very natural. And I think you know, I just haven't thought about in a long time, so you bring something good to my mind. Notice, like, look into more and think about Yeah, cuz it can be, I mean, these things have been used forever throughout human history to like create breakthroughs and help people heal. And, you know, it'll be interesting to see how hopefully things are decriminalized and and what the research is telling us and how people can integrate it in a way that's, you know, powerful and useful for Absolutely. Yeah. And

Stephen Bradford Long 55:22
you know, one of the points that Michael Pollan makes he has a new book out called, this is your mind on plants where he covers, he talks about our interaction with four plants, the poppy, caffeine, iOS, Ayahuasca, no, not ayahuasca, mescaline, and, oh, what was the other one? I can't remember, um, see, coffee. I mescaline is Poppy. And I can't I can't remember the other one. But one of the one of the things that he points out is that in the native indigenous cultures that do a ritual with these plants, it is that they are very conservative. And like, the culture surrounding them is very conservative and very structured and very, like old fashioned and very rigid. And part of the purpose for that is because these, these plants can just unleashed die in nice in powers, you know, can just unleash, you know, die a nice and forces in a community, if it doesn't take place within a structure. And he points out and Michael Pollan kind of makes a comparison, I think he did this in an interview, he kind of makes a comparison to alcohol, in our culture, where it's like, you know, we have these cultural norms and rituals surrounding alcohol, we don't think of them that way. But that's what it is, like, you know, you have a designated driver, that's a ritual. You, you have, you have you bring along a designated driver, you you don't, you know, you you drink with friends. Preferably not, you don't drink heavily alone. When you do we know that that's, you know, when we're more vulnerable. So, you know, there's like, they're like, these rituals and customs surrounding alcohol to make this really powerful, powerful drug, safer for society. Right and, and beneficial for society. And he says, we're going to have to develop similar norms and rituals for psychedelics. So it's a, it's a fascinating thing to think about within the context of, of religion. And I think it's going to be a natural fit, I think is going to be a natural thing to think about within the satanic community. Because they to this are, you know, generally more open and freaky than than others.

Shiva Honey 57:54
Yeah, it'll be exciting to see Christians integrated into their own. Oh, totally.

Stephen Bradford Long 57:58
Absolutely. When is your book coming out? Or tell us some about about how people can support your project and where they can find that?

Shiva Honey 58:09
Yeah, I've, I've just released an Indiegogo campaign for the book. So we've hit our funding goal, which is amazing. And I'm doing a limited edition, leather and paperback printing each of the books, they're limited to 111 copies each. And that campaign is going to be running through November 1. So if you go on my website, serpentina.com. If you go on Indiegogo in search, the devil's death that that will come up when you can purchase one of those books, the books aren't actually going to be released. And so May, I'm thinking may or April next year, so I just want to build in the supply chains are insane right now. So I'm trying to build in some time for everything to work itself out. But yeah, so we're looking at the Spring release. And I'll be doing a book release party at the headquarters at tst. And in some other places around the country, which is assuming COVID is not as terrible as it has been, hopefully finally happen. I've really been a hermit for the last year or so. I anticipate finally getting out into the world and being able to celebrate the books and all these other projects next year. And yeah, so so it's sellin so you can purchase it if you're interested on through Indiegogo or my website. And yeah, I'm super excited. I'm finishing up right now. And we're getting towards the end. So um, I've taken a little break since my dad died, just to try to process things before I get into another heavy writing session, but just putting all the pieces together now. And so yeah, I'm super excited. The ritual portion of the book is going to be one of the biggest aspects of it. But we're also going to be doing things around how you can come up with to an end of life, the sort of like, legal and practical steps you can take to ensure that you know, whatever you want to have happen after you die does end up happening, how to navigate the healthcare system, basic practical tools for working with, if you want at the end of life or helping somebody who is interested, think about and keep in mind when you're navigating the funeral industry, the healthcare industry, understanding what options would have at the end of life, and what can actually be done with your body. Going back to what I was talking about earlier, preparing advanced directives, you know, and ultimately, you know, how to deal with grief, process death, how to treat these rituals, rituals that you can use, how to support, you know, people that you loved ones during that time, practical guidance on like, what's helpful and what's not helpful. And you know, how to think about building a support network around you, and you're grieving, all sorts of things. So it's, it's got a lot going on, but I'm hoping it will open up the gateway for a lot of important conversations within our community and hopefully with outside of our community, too. I think it's, it's going to be pretty unique, and hopefully a useful resource for folks.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:01:13
Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming onto the show. This has been fantastic. Thank you so much for having me. All right. Well, that is it for this show. The music is by eleventy seven, the theme song is wild. You can find it on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to music. This show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long and as a production of rock candy recordings, as always, Hail Satan, and thanks for listening.

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STUniformed Coalitionaztq1

2022-10-11T08:06:14Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STUniformed_Coalitionaztq1
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
military, people, community, satanism, satanists, satanic, satanist, campaign, coalition, religion, religious, absolutely, constitution, satan, called, midshipman, fight, navy, veterans, institutions
SPEAKERS
James Payne, Stephen Bradford Long

Stephen Bradford Long 00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast this is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long, and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com All right, as always, I have to thank my patrons. They make this show possible and sustainable. So for this week, I have to thank Elizabeth Washburn Nixie Lionheart, Diane Koch Neff, Patricia Moreno, and Scott Armstrong, thank you so much. You are my personal lords and saviors. And by the way, if you wonder where your money goes, it goes to really practical things like keeping my six cat children fed and watered, and vet bills and repairing my rickety old 30 year old car, and things like that. It goes to really basic life stuff, as well as this podcast and future investments for more content creation. So every little bit helps, and you can get extra content every single week by going to patreon.com. Forward slash Steven Bradford Mon. All right. Well, I am really delighted to welcome James Payne to the show. Hello, James. How are you?

James Payne 01:42
Hey, Steven, I'm doing great. I'm happy to be here. The thanks for inviting me to be on.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:48
Of course. My pleasure. Yeah. So we are colleagues in the Satanic Temple. You are one of the ministers and the Satanic Temple. And you are, I believe the director of the uniformed coalition. And did I get that right? Satanic did? That's exactly Okay. Satanic uniformed coalition. So tell us some about who you are and what you do.

James Payne 02:11
Well, I guess we'll start with a little bit about me. I am active duty military. I'm senior enlisted in the US Navy. With that comes qualifying statement of nothing I say is reflective of the DoD or any person that I might work for all those sorts of things. I have to legally qualify it that way. Due to various military regulations. But yeah, I'm active duty military have been in for almost 16 years. I am married, been married for 14 years. Got a kiddo he's nine years old. I have two dog children. Like your six cat children. Here. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 02:53
we love we love and we love animal invasions on this podcast. They happen. They happen regularly.

James Payne 03:01
Yeah, I'm sure it will happen again, you'll hear a very, very large booth. And that is my 90 pound lap dog named Astrid. My other tatertot is just sitting there being lazy.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:12
Nice. Awesome. Yeah. And can you say what? What's the ACA? I know nothing about the about military. The the guild What branch? What? What? Royal House? What? Which in which part of the military? Are you in? Or?

James Payne 03:35
Sure? I'll go into like...

Stephen Bradford Long 03:36
Are you a Harkonen? Are you are you an Atradies? Are you?

James Payne 03:42
Like, think of myself as a bit of a Hufflepuff?

Stephen Bradford Long 03:45
And are you a Ravenclaw? Are you an imperial Stormtrooper? Like what is what do you do?

James Payne 03:52
My next tattoo plan is to get an empire logo with a Rebel Alliance logo in the middle of it the rebels. Oh, nice.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:58
Nice. Nice. Nice. So So can you tell us some about what you do in the military?

James Payne 04:04
Sure thing. Yeah, I can tell you I can tell you a little bit about it. Absolutely. So I'm in the Navy. My, in the Navy, we have a bunch of different titles. I'll keep the simple ones. I am what's called a senior chief petty officer that is a senior enlisted position in the Navy. And basically that means that usually I'm you know, in charge of making sure that a department of sailors has everything they need in order to be able to do their job in order to be able to live their life. I mean, I I take care of sailors basically, is what I do and that senior enlisted position. My profession is I'm a military linguist. I see a variety of languages.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:49
Military, what was it your military Say that again?

James Payne 04:52
A linguist I'm a military linguist. As my profession, it's fun to get that thing done. I needed to say again, sometimes I can't work as well,

Stephen Bradford Long 05:01
or I just don't understand words, well, so who knows? It could it could be one or the other.

James Payne 05:07
But yeah, I mean, I've been doing that for quite a while I did a I did a stint, as we call it a recruit division commander in the Navy, but most people colloquially refer to it as a drill sergeant. Okay, and I know, I know y'all can't see me right now. But I promise I look very imposing in my calendar sweater.

Stephen Bradford Long 05:31
So I think that of all the things that Satanism gets paired with, in both a popular imagination, and in the minds of maybe a lot of Satanists, Satanism and military aren't necessarily one of those things. Right. And so, you know, you when people think of Satanism, they, they think of all kinds of countercultural things, and also, maybe a lot of political movements that might be ideologically opposed to the very concept of military. Right. So what is your journey to Satanism? So you have been in the military, you said for 16 years, is that right?

James Payne 06:18
Yes, it is six years now.

Stephen Bradford Long 06:20
So what drew you to Satanism? What is your path to Satan?

James Payne 06:26
Well, broadly speaking, everyone in the military has a different path to it. That is a military Satanists right. Speaking for myself. I've always been an atheist, I was never raised in like a firm Christian household or anything. My mom would identify a spiritual, my head is Unitarian. So you know, Christian light,

Stephen Bradford Long 06:51
everything unitary, it's everything when they Yeah, the joke is when they when Unitarians pray they always start out with to whom it may concern.

James Payne 07:01
Like not to tell that to my dad,

Stephen Bradford Long 07:03
I say that with great love for Unitarian Universalist, I absolutely love them. And I think they do amazing stuff. So I say that with complete adoration of our, you know, beloved, Unitarian Universalists.

James Payne 07:16
Yeah, they helped start a humanist movement. So I'm totally down with it. Absolutely. For me, though, it was a natural evolution, right? We have to go back to why a lot of people join the military also, though, to really get to the root of the matter. And the fact of the matter is, is that people join the military for every reason you can think of, they join it for, you know, the typical things that people might think of, you know, patriotism and service to their country, and things like that. But people also join it for education, or just to get out of their own town to get out of their bad situation. Right. Everyone joins it for a different reason. For me, I just wanted to get out of my hometown, really. And my view toward the military evolved through the years that I was in it. So what you're referring toward other where people see that counterculture and the military, and it doesn't quite align, I will acknowledge first and foremost that that's still correct. I am in the military. And I am aware that very, that parts of the institution that I am in, do not directly line up with my values, nor the values that most Satanists might hold and what we can speak to that in a little bit, because that's part of the uniform coalition as a whole of what we're trying to do. But for my personal journey into Satanism, it was really just that I always identified with this archetype with this romantic literary character of Satan, not necessarily Satan from the Bible, right, everyone thinks that one in that one specifically, but for me, it was more the, the rebel that was trying to make a real change. Right. And for Satanists, broadly, in the military, that's kind of how we look at it, right? We're in the system, just as Lucifer, the morning star was, you know, in the Celeste fuel system, as it were, but he wanted to make a change. So he was willing to rise up against those arbitrary injustices and fight for it. And that's part of what I would say military satanist do now. First and foremost, we obviously are beholden to the constitution. We take an oath to the Constitution of the United States of America. support and defend, and that doesn't go away. I absolutely take my oath to support and defend the Constitution very seriously. And I will never betray that oath.

Stephen Bradford Long 09:55
I've just been, you know, I've been so sorry to interrupt.

James Payne 09:58
I've Oh, no, you're fine.

Stephen Bradford Long 09:59
I I've been reading a book called The Constitution of knowledge. And it by Jonathan Ross, who is a former, you know, who's kind of an old time gay activist, and but he talks about the formation of the American Constitution and just what a marvel of two true liberalism as it is, and what an extraordinary masterpiece of innovation it is. So I am right there with you. And so not as someone who has made a formal declaration, you know, formal vow to defend the Constitution. But you know, in spirit, I'm right there with you. I think it's an incredible document.

James Payne 10:42
Yeah, absolutely. And something that I always like to point out about it is, you know, the Constitution, if you once you read it, it tells a lot of it always focuses on a lot of what the government can't limit in how the government can't limit the people. Right? It always says the government can't do this. Anytime it says that people can't do this. You end up with things like prohibition. And that didn't go so well.

Stephen Bradford Long 11:08
Right? Yeah, absolutely. So there's something kind of inherently satanic about the American Constitution. In my view,

James Payne 11:17
there's something inherently centered satanic, I would say about the American way of life, the American ideal of patriotism and revolution.

Stephen Bradford Long 11:25
Yeah, I agree. I definitely agree with you on that. And so, yeah, you were drawn to the symbol of Satan as the unbowed will, who fights for the greater good, and that it sounds like that resonated with you and your experience in the military, does it? So you have made this vow to protect the constitution to defend the Constitution? Do you feel like that is ever at odds with how the military operates now is part of that satanic practice in the military, then? Is there a conflict between where the military is right now and what the Constitution says it should be?

James Payne 12:14
I don't believe so. Okay, and I'll elaborate on why. That's because our Constitution as it stands right now, gives us a great deal of freedoms. Now, obviously, if you look at the, you know, various Freedom Index route, like the most free country in the world, and I don't pretend to say that we are. But I do think that we do enjoy a great deal of freedoms. The fact of the matter is, is that if there were anything that I found to be at odds with as a Satan's, the military has done a pretty good job of giving a will say, a way by regulation to effect change within the military structure. Now, is it always actually effective? That's, you know, it depends on a lot of 1000 things, right. But that doesn't mean that we can't fight for it within the military. So whenever it comes down to it. I don't think that anything that I do as a Satanist is ever at odds with my oath to protect and defend the Constitution. No.

Stephen Bradford Long 13:19
And what drew you to TST?

James Payne 13:22
Well, we know about kind of the origins of it. Well, sorry, sorry, to. I'm assuming your crowd knows a little bit about the origins.

Stephen Bradford Long 13:32
But you can always rehash it is fine. We we also get a lot of newcomers to this show, where this specific episode might be someone's first exposure to Satanism. So go ahead and tell people as if they have never heard anything about it before?

James Payne 13:49
Sure. I'll try to keep it I'll try to keep it brief and simple, right. Um, Scampton Temple was born in the mid 2000s 2010 is 2013, I think is the official establishment date, and then really started coming into its own a few years later, if 2017 I believe being when they officially became recognize, I might be wrong on that. Someone look me up. Y'all are the internet, y'all will be ruthless. So we talked a lot about the, you know, the where GST came from and how it wanted to make sure that religious equality was being observed. And to get that real separation of church and state in the place. You know, you have things like good old, good old Mr. raybert, who fought a lot to try to have a 10 commandments monument erected and that essentially became the reason that we have a Baphomet statue right now. life of slavery, of course, the original Baphomet way back in the day, but the Baphomet statue itself is probably born of that particular fight. Right. So it was really no would have seen things like that there were people who are willing to stand up for things like the separation of church and state, something that I've always fervently believed in seeing the problems that state recognized religion or, you know, local municipality recognized religion can create, it drew my attention to them. Obviously, I'd never identified with the Church of Satan or anything like that. I'm not going to go into you know, detail about CEOs, Satanists, but suffice to say I didn't never identify with them. So that never drew me towards Satanism. What did was the realization that there was this group of people that, Oh, damn, I already believe the same things this group of people believe. And it was very hard to find that community. Right. Like, I suspect, like a lot of people, they say, they read the tenets, and they go, Oh, well, I've been a Satanist my whole life. Because they believe in things like the tenants, right, I specifically chose to make an outward attempt to embody those traits. And I've always feel like I feel like I've always done that sort of my whole life anyways. But this gave me a way to codify it. And as I said before, to build that community around it, really, I think Satanism, it, it's very individualistic, obviously. But it's a bit of a conundrum, too, because it's an individualistic community. Yeah.

Stephen Bradford Long 16:30
It is a community of individuals. Yes,

James Payne 16:33
yeah. And that's essentially what drew me to it, right? I didn't have to change who I was. I'm still the same person, hopefully, a little less flaws along the way, having learned from my mistakes, but still essentially the same person I was 510 years ago, still trying to fight the good fight, as it were. And TSP has really enabled me to further pursue that, and more importantly, enabled me to help others find that community. Right. We don't proselytize, of course. But that doesn't mean that people don't come to us wanting that community and that help and really love and relish being able to provide that outlet for people who never had it before.

Stephen Bradford Long 17:20
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm also, you know, I'm so glad that there exists this community of Satanists in the military, because I have friends who are in the military who have developed an interest in Satanism, and the uniformed coalition is a resource that I've been able to send them to. And you know, that that just points to the fact that this is a religion, and because it is a religion, it is going to draw many different types of people. And that's the way it should be. And so it is going to draw, you know, the gutter punks, and it's going to draw the, the military people, right, and everyone in between and, and the whole mix of humanity and lots of people from the gay community and sex workers. And then, you know, corporate Satanists who wear suits and ties and that's the way it should be. One of the reasons why I why I wanted to have you on is to break the notion that Satanism only appeals to one type of person. Does that make sense? Oh, no, I hope perfect. I hope that makes sense. And I hope I'm, I'm articulating that. Well, I don't know how well I'm communicating that, but

James Payne 18:42
I think you're communicating that very well. Actually, um, you know, it's funny, myself and the director of the afterschool Satan club, we often joke with each other June by the way, we often joke with each other that no one would really pick us out in the crowd as satanist and we could get to places other Satanists couldn't need to because we look very plain. Well, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 19:05
I wrote an article called on being a Normie, satanist or two ago, and that was the point that I made, you know, I I'm a Satanist because it is my religion. And I may not necessarily look the part you know, I do have long hair. And I do have a big beard. If anything. I look more like a, like an Asheville. You know, I'm in the Asheville area. I look more like an Asheville hippie pagan. Like if, if there's any look that I have. It's like, Oh, this guy is eating mushrooms up in the woods. That is more of the look that I have. But you know, I usually I'm just like wearing khakis and a cat t shirt as I'm doing right now. Right. So, but the point is, Satanism is a religion and so therefore it won't be it won't attract Just one aesthetic type or one personality type or one person have a particular background. You know, there's this stereotype that Satanism is really just for disaffected Christians, who are, you know, people who are who grew up Christian and who are countercultural. And that is just not true. The number of lifelong atheists and the number of people who even who actually have a wonderful relationship with their former Christian faith, still, and I consider myself in that category. I love Christianity, even though there's a lot of ugliness to it, I still really, I don't hate my Christian background. And so there's just no stereotype for Satanism.

James Payne 20:50
Sure, by virtue of my, I guess we'll say position in the military, I obviously, embrace other religious structures as well, acknowledging that they too are problematic structures, and trying to convince people from within those communities to, you know, maybe, incidentally, be a little Satanic and change it for the better.

Stephen Bradford Long 21:12
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And so tell us some about the uniformed coalition campaign. And but But first, I want to clarify what makes uniformed coalition a campaign. So a campaign within the Satanic Temple means something very, very specific. So what makes this a campaign rather than just a social group, for people in the military, or veterans, etc? So what is the mission of this campaign? What makes this a campaign rather than an alliance?

James Payne 21:48
So I guess to explain that answer, we need to first go a little bit about like what the uniform coalition actually consists of. Right? A lot of people focus on the military, because to be frank, it started with a military community. Right. That was it was originally military Friends of the Satanic Temple, right. And me and quite a few others, some veteran ministers worked very hard to evolve the group to where it is now. And the uniform coalition specifically consists of mill active duty military, veterans, first responders, firefighters, doctors, and nurses. And yes, law enforcement officers, police, among others, as well, right, all of these people are people who have chose to put on a uniform and serve their community in a potentially dangerous or life threatening way. And it's, it's a community like that that really brought us all together. Right. Now, what makes it an actual campaign is this community, this group that would normally be something like an alliance, what we have as the campaign is a network, right, that looks to provide Veterans Assistance, provide training, proper training for first responders, or an advocate for proper training for law enforcement officers and trying to make sure that within these problematic communities, we can really make an effective change from within. As a uniform Coalition. We understand the potentially problematic nature of our professional communities, we also understand and support those that would challenge the problematic or destructive issues that might arise in these communities. What I like to emphasize also is we as well challenge those issues from within just as you know, this Kimball uses law base in a religious biases to demand change or equality. We in the uniform coalition, believe in using institutional regulation and reason leveraging what we can to effect positive change on these institutions from within. Right. So that's part of the campaign and the other folks with campaign is of course, taking care of the members of this campaign providing resources, there's a great number of our membership, that unfortunately suffer from things like post traumatic stress disorder or various mental health ailments will say, and we while we don't provide those services, services ourselves, obviously, we do help direct them to people that can help them a lot of our a lot of our members, you know, go to things like military one source or, you know, certain police unions really help, right. Certain ones certain other police unions, not so much. We gauge those with depending on the municipality.

Stephen Bradford Long 24:48
Yeah, and I said earlier that I don't know much of anything about the military. That was that was kind of a lie. My partner works in suicide prevention for the VA And there is there, you know, you mentioned PTSD, I'm sure the same is true for people who have served in the police and the police force. And it's really hard to overstate how much at least I feel like our country has failed veterans with PTSD. I would I agree, yeah, we have done a terrible job, just socially, societally. And and, you know, the in terms of resources, and in terms of adequate care, and mental health care, and also just the communities that a lot of these people come back to. There's just, it's been catastrophic. That is something I do know a good deal about, because of the work that my partner is in. Yeah, yeah. And

James Payne 25:54
it's unfortunate, because all all of those communities that we represent, right, every single one of them has higher rates of suicide than the rest of, you know, the the rest of the country, right? Every single one of them have higher rates of domestic violence incidents, right? Every single one of them have higher rates of these things that lead to either self harm or harm of others. And that's something that we actively try to provide resources to get ahead of, right? Because we don't want that endemic to our culture, right? We want to change these institutions that we're a part of for the better. And we want to try to get that get those numbers down as low as possible.

Stephen Bradford Long 26:41
So what I'm hearing you say is that there are kind of two prongs to this campaign. The one, the one prong is the community of veterans and active duty and people on on the police force, and so on, and providing resources and community for those people. So that's one prong. But then the other prong is trying to affect change in policy and in reform within these various institutions. And that's kind of the the broader goal. So what is what are some of those specific goals that make this a campaign? So one of

James Payne 27:23
the things that I can really speak to you, I guess, is our efforts to get Satanism recognized within the military? Right? Well, we can focus on that a little bit. That's one of our specific goals, right? There's a whole lot of jargon, and I'll try to avoid using it. But there's this there's this board called the Armed Forces chaplains board. And essentially, they dictate what is or isn't a religion within nine States Military. Now, nevermind that it's already recognized by the US Federal Government, this is a different list. Okay. So one of our specific goals is in this endeavor is this particular recognition, getting us to be able to put tsp on our dog tags to put it as simply as possible? Right. Right now, that's not an option can't do it. But there's a lot of Satanists within the military that want to be able to represent themselves, you know, if, if they die, and it just says no rel Prix with no religious preference, or other or atheist. There's, how is the military supposed to know what their wishes might be? Right? It's, that's a drastic scenario, of course, but it's something that we have to consider. Right. And it also just comes down to that religious equality, to be able to read the book.

Stephen Bradford Long 28:48
Oh, there he is.

James Payne 28:51
Yeah, wanting to be represented the same as others, right. So the other one, that another specific point that we're going to is making an alliance of suicide prevention networks, I guess, we are actively reaching out across the country, in order to, I guess, distribute more info and make more known various things in people's local community that can help someone not pull trigger, as it were, that can help people whenever they feel like they might not have another out. And we want to make sure that that community is very robust, and that people will always have somewhere to go with it. Hopefully, the end goal of that particular endeavor is to have something like that we have we know the suicide prevention crisis line, right? We want to have something like that for our community as well. And anyone that's associated with our community, right, and I guess really anyone, but we want to basically have the A PSP version of that, right, where it's it's another outlet that people can use that people can feel more comfortable using, because it's from their community.

Stephen Bradford Long 30:11
Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, this is this is one of the really important roles of religion for a religious community to provide these services and to provide those resources. That's what a church is supposed to do. That is the role of a church to have a healthy church to provide those resources to members of their community. So yeah, all of that makes sense. Were there were there any specific steps that your that uniformed coalition had to go through in order to become a campaign like, what is that process like for this is kind of insider satanic baseball, so we don't need to spend too much time on this. But just for people who might be curious, and we don't need to go into too great detail. But what's the process by which something becomes a campaign like what what was the process for you to for uniformed coalition to become a campaign?

James Payne 31:06
So first off, I guess I should say that each campaign within TSP is probably probably built a little bit differently, because we each have to have our own way of operating in order to effectively operate a campaign. We're nowhere near as big as sober faction, for instance. But that doesn't change the fact that we're, you know, increasing in numbers literally every day. Now, what got us to be an actual campaign really started off with a need. Right? And I think like most things, what does it say? Difficulty breeds ingenuity, something like that? Something like that? Yeah. Yeah. And in this case, the lack of ability to help a particular portion of our community led to the formation of this, as I said, originally, military friends of this temple. And it did start off just as a group, right, like kind of a little local support group. And it grew and kept expanding. And I know there was a lot of discussion back and forth within our own group, as to, you know, whether how we should expand whether we should open it, frankly, to other communities, as well. Ultimately, we see where we ended up with that. But really, ultimately, what it comes down to informing ourselves as a campaign is providing that resource to our satanic community, right, filling that need, and creating an outlet to enable us to be able to help each other better. Hmm.

Stephen Bradford Long 32:46
Awesome. So listening to you talk, I can just what kind of what kind of reaction D, so you are probably doing a lot of for lack of a better term activism within the military on behalf of Satanists. That's part of your job. In you know, as Director of the uniformed coalition, what kind of response do you get from your colleagues in the military?

James Payne 33:15
Well, first, I should be very clear in state that I keep my religious activity and my professional activity entirely separate.

Stephen Bradford Long 33:23
Right, that is very mature and professional, and everyone should do that. Yeah. Everyone do what James does.

James Payne 33:33
Nonetheless, I you know, I'm I go by my real name, I don't make any effort to hide the fact that I'm a Satanist. I don't, you know, go running down the hall screaming and of course, but I don't make any effort to hide it either. And people and then I work with do you know, know that I'm a Satanists? Let's say largely, it depends on the community that I'm a part of, at the time. As far as how their response to that goes, whenever y'all can look up articles about it. I'm pretty sure there's an article about me and the American conservative. But one of the big, I guess we'll say triggering factors for all of this was a group of midshipmen. What a midshipman is, is that's like a cadet at the US Naval,

Stephen Bradford Long 34:21
what is a cadet for people who are not in the know? Yeah,

James Payne 34:25
exactly. You know, these, these young men and women are trying to go through this college and eventually become commissioned officers in the US military. So they, as I said, I've always been public about it. And a few of them wanted representation they wanted really what they wanted was a community at their school. And someone came to me and asked, they asked me if I would be the sponsor for it, you know, help them with this process.

Stephen Bradford Long 34:55
With the process of being a satanic community. Yes,

James Payne 34:59
God Esoteric community within the school, right? Because there were other religious clubs, right? This what would have, the way it would have been categorized would have been called an extracurricular activity tack religion. So a religious extracurricular activity, right. And there was no shortage of them on the yard. You know, you have Catholic groups and Christian groups and, you know, Muslim groups and Buddhist groups, everything like that, right. And because they were very good about letting people represent themselves equally, right. And I will say that, that almost almost all the chaplains that I've worked with, in a chaplain, for those of you that don't know, is someone whose job it is in the US military to facilitate religious structure and religious activity to a command. Now, they, you know, they, they take care of their own religious community, obviously, but they also are charged with taking care of everyone else, regardless of their own personal beliefs, or lack thereof. And most of them stuck to that I won't say all of them, and I won't drop names, but most of them stuck to that very well, the system at large did not, it was a long fight. Ultimately, where it ended up was a community that was allowed to get together unofficially, because they would not allow the name Satan on an extracurricular activity would not do it. And that's something that we're still looking at how to challenge today, we have things like the satanic representation campaign that's doing a lot of that work, right? In colleges across the country, and we're figuring out how to best tackle those sorts of situations. So this situation at the academy is ultimately where a lot of this really kicked off as well, because it sparked this interest in all of these people coming together. And it was, you know, you're gonna tell us no will fuck about, fuck that, and fuck you, right salutely. And we get together and we coalesced into a community that just decided to do it anyway. It's like, okay, well, you're gonna deny us our rights. We're going to, you know, effectively protest by doing it anyway. And we did. So after that, of course, I actually, personally got what's called a counseling statement. Right? And that's because they knew that legally, they couldn't do more than that to me. I got a counseling statement for my support of Midshipman in this endeavor, because it made national news, right, a bunch of a bunch of Midshipman want to be Satanists. They want to be able to be Satanist. Right, and it made national news. And I have that counseling frame on the wall in my office. Specifically, because I always like to encourage my sailors to fight for injustice where they see it. Absolutely. So I took that to heart and framed it.

Stephen Bradford Long 38:12
Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. So it sounds like you get a lot of institutional pushback. Yeah, maybe it isn't so much personal pushback. But institutional pushback is what I'm hearing you say.

James Payne 38:25
So am I saying that I predicated all this with a depends on where I'm at. Right? I will predicate it with it is it was that particular institution at the time. And also, I do need to be very clear here that less, you know, the US Naval Academy tried to sue me for something. The chaplains were very supportive of the process throughout the entire time. And I do believe that ultimately, we will come to an agreement about what can happen. And I do have to say that they have not officially denied it in any way, shape or form to this day, they have not officially denied the allowance of it. Awesome.

Stephen Bradford Long 39:04
Important, they also haven't seen this. Sure, sure. But that's an important clarification, when

James Payne 39:10
we're talking about that, right. I'm not certain how much it impacted me personally, in my career. I do know that with my colleagues at that time, it put some of them off, right. Some of them didn't care, right. I still have a lot of friends and a lot of great relations from the Naval Academy, or from from my time there, and it just really came down to the individualized person. We had we have some success stories from it. Of course, like, for instance, satanic Midshipman, graduating into the Marine Corps. You know, the first ever openly satanic midshipmen graduating into the report. The first ever openly satanic woman graduating into the US Navy, and then followed by the first ever opened the satanic man as well as And we also were a, we also have a membership that included our transgendered midshipmen as well. And ultimately they graduated into their various military services. Amazing. I think it was exceptional that we were able to facilitate, you know, giving them a community there. While they were on that journey, it's not an easy school. It's, it's, you know, one of the top institutions in the country, and usually, usually somewhere between one and three for public schools. And it's not easy for them. And I'm very glad that we were able to give that to them. While we were there, in whatever capacity we were, in fact, able to provide it. Now, moving to I will say, my own community because that's, that's a different kind of community. Right? I'm, like I said, I'm a military. I don't know if you heard my kid. It's fine.

Stephen Bradford Long 40:53
It's fine. We screaming children in the background is just fine. It's like it's the same with barking dogs. And yeah, wheeling cats. It's several episodes ago aren't raw was on the show. But he had the there was this, like persistent yowling, like this cat II just caterwauling. But at the very beginning of the show, he was like, I'm so sorry. That is my parrot pretending to be a cat. And so it was like his parents pretending to be a cat. And it was just like screeching through the first, you know, 20 minutes of the show, so it's all good.

James Payne 41:32
First and foremost, my community is the Navy, it is the military, you know, I shouldn't paint a narrow stroke of that. But there are some communities within military. And I will say that the linguist category is typically a little more liberal and progressive and the rest of the military. So like, my current command, and the chaplain corps at this command, and you know, the students and the staff at this command, they're just like, fucking a rock on, you know, we ask great sailors great. We're actively working at this command to establish the first military satanic congregation on this base.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:16
You know, what I think what you're, what this emphasizes is just how huge the American military is, and how varied a culture it is. And, you know, I think that for a lot of people from the outside, on the outside of the military, there's this stereotype of what a military person is. And that stereotype might have some truth to it, depending on it's very specific context. But the truth is, there are so many different cultures and personality types and backgrounds and motivations and beliefs within the military. And I, whenever people talk about the military, I wish, whatever, whatever they might say about it, I wish that that they would include that in their analysis that this is actually a gargantuan and varied community.

James Payne 43:14
Sure, yeah. And you're absolutely right. The military is no different, right? We have communities like here, like anywhere else, that have all kinds of people that believe all kinds of different things, and have all kinds of different viewpoints on all kinds of different activities. Right. Right. And military, you're gonna you're gonna get people in the military, just like anywhere else that, you know, think that Satanists shouldn't have a right who's this? You know, and then you're gonna get people that don't give a shit. And, you know, you get, of course, get the satanists themselves. Right, right. People who are allies, no matter what their own personal religious belief is, if good people Yeah, back, if you have all the spectrum in the military, that's no different in that community than it is in our own satanic community.

Stephen Bradford Long 44:07
Absolutely. So speaking of our own satanic community, do you get pushback within the satanic community for being part of the military? You know,

James Payne 44:16
occasionally? Yes. But I won't say that. It's the norm. That's great. Yeah, it is. It's a great thing. And if, if I do not a lot of people are willing to confront us about it. So I don't know.

Stephen Bradford Long 44:31
Right, right. We're right. That makes complete sense. There.

James Payne 44:33
There certainly are Satanists within tsp that don't believe that we should be allowed to be a part of PST you know, Far be it for me to dictate what tenants should mean to what the tenets of DSP should mean to anyone, but I don't personally believe that, you know, gatekeeping Satanism is reflected in our tenants. Right? Those that Do as I said, though earlier, those that do have problems with our community, being a part of the stand temple, I continue to support them in having that view. And that belief, that's cool. I get it. And that's why I said that we're going to continue to try to change that for the better. So that hopefully, you know, soon, sooner rather than later, we'll be able to say that we've changed those institutions for the better, something very, I'll go ahead and put it up front, something very difficult to talk about, for instance, is we have a ton of Satanists who are, you know, a cab, all cops are bastards, right?

Stephen Bradford Long 45:38
Yeah, I was just, I was just about to bring that up. And, and there's got to be a tension there.

James Payne 45:44
There is the fact is there is right, and there's not a clean, good solution to it, there's a, I think the only real thing that we have to do in order to bridge that gap is we, as members of these problematic organizations, acknowledge the problems and try to make it better. And hopefully, those outside of our institutions that might look negatively on our institutions, at least acknowledge that we're trying, right. I'm not asking someone to, you know, I'm not saying that, you know, people shouldn't be, you know, a cab or, you know, anti military industrial complex, or anything like that. I'm not saying they shouldn't do those things. Absolutely. voice your concerns, right. Because without voicing your concerns, what would never get done.

Stephen Bradford Long 46:33
And the community relies on people doing that, right. Like, like, as our religious community, you know, there's a reason why I brought this up. And the the reason is fundamental disagreements are like the the energy in the perpetual motion machine of our religion, it, it is the fuel that generates the life of our religion, it is in that space between those disagreements, and some of them are intractable disagreements, some of them are going to be irreconcilable. They have to be in order for this thing called religion to work in order for this thing called community in order for this thing called culture even, to work in a mature way. For those those profound differences, to exist in tension with each other in a way that makes it resilient and anti fragile, rather than brittle and delicate. Right. And, and so there are a ton of people in TST I disagree with, that's the way it should be. That's important. And there are and you know, there are people who disagree with me, there are people who read my articles and and I hear from them, and they think I am completely wrong. Or there are people who will listen to my podcast, and they will write me emails, and I welcome every single one of them.

James Payne 48:07
Oh, you're probably gonna get quite a few of them about this. Yeah.

Stephen Bradford Long 48:10
Which is perfect. Because the fact is, we need each other. Yes, we need. We need those who disagree with us, in order to function as a mature and healthy community. That is how we grow that is how we transform. And so you know, I am a minister, my job is to part of my job well, part of my self ordained job, you know, I have taken this on. I've taken on this mantle. Part of I believe that part of my role as a minister is to embrace that tension. My show is called sacred attention for a fucking reason.

James Payne 48:55
Absolutely. 100% Oh, my God.

Stephen Bradford Long 48:58
So, yeah, yeah.

James Payne 49:01
Well as speaking as a minister, right, I mean, obviously, all of this could be ministerial talk, but most definitely, specifically, I guess, to provide some industry. I think that what we're talking about here, this need for, you know, conflict within our own organization, this Well, I wouldn't say conflict necessarily, but discussion within it can be conflict and disagreement, and it's

Stephen Bradford Long 49:23
okay, if it's conflict, too, sometimes. Sometimes conflict is necessary, and that isn't a bad thing. And, and depending on how healthy our institution is, it will cultivate that in a way that makes us resilient.

James Payne 49:38
And I think that that can be represented and embodied in the fact that we don't have a Bible. We don't have, you know, specific books and texts, this walls of, you know, documents that say exactly how you should do a B or C thing. We have seven tenants. And we try to go by those the best we can. Right? And that specifically, so in my opinion, specifically so that we can have this progressive conflict, right, this way forward in agreeing and disagreeing with each other. So that we can say, well, you know, it's my belief that maybe we go this way with this thing. And someone else says, well, that's, you know, I think that we should go this way we could, and we can either go, you know, that's fucking dumb, or that's a stellar idea. And it's that way that we can come together as a community and go forward, if we had this wall of books that we had to adhere to Every page of would be no different than any other religion. And we wouldn't ever get anything done. Because the entire idea of having that, you know, that huge book that says everything to do is to not progress. It's to do this injustice is to free up. On moving us forward.

Stephen Bradford Long 51:06
Yeah. And, you know, the seventh Tenet, the essence of which is, you know, even these tenets are, are basically open to revision and reinterpretation, you know, nothing is written in stone. And, you know, the spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should prevail. And all things include and should prevail over the written word. I mean, I bring this up, because being made stronger as a community, because of disagreement, and not in spite of it is an incredibly challenging thing to do. It is incredibly hard, it is so difficult to exist in that space. And it is maybe one of the most counterintuitive things for our species to do. But I think that Satanists might be uniquely suited to doing that because of our principles of reason and compassion, and progress, and so on. So it's very, very, very hard. But I think in general, it's just, it's necessary to, it's necessary to have a healthy and mature movement, the fact that there will be people who are a cab, and the fact that there are people who are members of the police force, within the same religious community, that is a very deep tension. And that's the way it's supposed to be

James Payne 52:38
100%, we would never progress without that tension.

Stephen Bradford Long 52:42
So I think that's a great note for us to end on. So for people who might want to know more about uniformed coalition or contact them, where can they do that?

James Payne 52:52
So one of the primary means of contacting us is Facebook, right? We have Facebook like anyone else. So facebook.com/groups/t s t uniform to coalition, right, that'll get you to our group. Now, that group, that specific group is closed to the, you know, the membership of military and veterans and law enforcement and firefighters, et cetera. But nonetheless, it does have a lot of our about info, and what we do and what we're about. And if you do have any questions, or you're a part of one of these communities and want to know more, you can also always email us at uniform coalition at the satanic temple.org or T S T you see at the satanic temple.org. And we'll get back to you as soon as we can.

Stephen Bradford Long 53:43
Amazing. And I will put all of those in the show notes for for anyone who listens to this and wants to follow up on that. All right. Well, this has been great. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this, James. I really appreciate it.

James Payne 53:56
Thank you for having me. Absolutely stoked that you gave me the opportunity to be here.

Stephen Bradford Long 54:00
All right. Well, that is it for this show. The theme song is wild by eleventy seven. You can find it on Apple Music, Spotify, or wherever you listen to music. The show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long and it is a production of rock candy recordings. As always Hail Satan, and thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STTSTvsReligiousDiscrimination

2022-10-11T08:06:14Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STTSTvsReligiousDiscrimination
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, tst, judge, boston, principle, deposition, free speech, feel, fucking, city council, understand, rally, discriminated, satanic temple, rights, policy, church militant, invocation, fact, michelle
SPEAKERS
Doug Misicko, Stephen Bradford Long

Stephen Bradford Long 00:13
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long. And as always, before we get started, I have to thank my patrons, they make this show possible. So for this week, I have to thank Sean Lena and Andrew. Also a number of my patrons over the past week or so have upgraded their patronage to a higher amount. I really appreciate that all benefits get unlocked at $1. I try to make it easily accessible. I enormously appreciate it if you're able to upgrade from that because every little bit helps. But there are other ways to support this show. You can also leave five stars on Apple podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen to the show. Here is a recent review on Apple podcasts. This is from t A p in the United States. And they say this podcast has been of immense help to me as I have accepted that I'm an atheist and how much I admire and resonate with Satanism. Great conversations happening here. Thank you so much. I so appreciate that. And it also tells our digital overlords that this show is worth sharing with others. So if you have just five seconds, please go write a quick review. And I will read it on the show. Even if it's nasty. I'll read it on the show. All right. I am here with Lucien Greaves, co founder and spokesperson of the Satanic Temple. Hello again.

Doug Misicko 01:51
Hey, how do you do?

Stephen Bradford Long 01:53
How's how's it going? How's life?

Doug Misicko 01:56
Oh, you know, it has its ups and downs.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:59
It doesn't deed. So I haven't really been following this lately. But there's a there's a kerfuffle in the city of Boston, what what's going on there with the Satanic Temple in the city of Boston

Doug Misicko 02:12
Well, weeks to go, you might remember we had our first deposition, which is when we take the sworn testimony of our opposition before going to trial. So we've done our investigative work. And we were deposing a representative of the city of Boston. And the representative with a shit eating grin on her face the whole time, was answering questions by telling us that the only person who could possibly answer our questions was the mayor. And the mayor was the same person who as a city council member, personally rejected the satanic temples bid to give an opening invocation before a city council meeting.

Stephen Bradford Long 02:58
So this so this deposition, just to clarify for people the deposition was was regarding the bid that TST put out to give a an opening, what was it dec,

Doug Misicko 03:12
we were gonna give an opening invocation and opening invocation, right? We're at the city council meetings are typically opened by a Christian prayer given by somebody invited by the city council. And it was, you know, earlier in this century that the Supreme Court had decided, had ruled that it's illegal for City Council's and other public meetings to be opened up with words from a religious leader or whomever. But they had to be available to all comers. You couldn't advance one religious voice over another pluralism needs to be upheld. So immediately, local jurisdictions started engaging in prayer policies that were openly discriminatory anyways, hearing only that they were allowed to have prayers, they went ahead and decided to set up an environment in which pluralism was not respected and leaving us to have to litigate towards the end set were already supposed to be in place.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:17
What are some examples, the Supreme Court ruled that town halls need to be, you know, need to be open to all comers to all faiths, but then you said that specific locations, specific cities and towns started introducing policies that were discriminatory? How so what were some of the policies that like different towns and cities have put in place?

Doug Misicko 04:41
Well, this is this is what's interesting. A lot of them didn't rely on any written policy. And I think that was a method by which they bypassed the letter of the law in the intent in order to give privilege to specific voices. So II Like even in Boston, they don't have a written policy of any type. They just have a tradition they said of inviting whomever they wanted to give the invocations or the prayers or whatever. And they even went so far as to claim that they have a non discriminatory invitation only policy, which makes zero sense, of course, the very definition of it. But they can get away with this, of course, because as we've seen in Boston, they have the judge clearly on their side, they know the judge is on their side, they've defaulted on the case twice, showing how little they care about the case, only to have the judge just extend their timelines. And when you default, that means you've just failed to meet filing deadlines and other such things the first time around. They offered no excuse at all the second time around, both the attorneys just said that they were on, on vacation. And that was good enough for the judge, oh, my God. Right, we would have never gotten away with that if we had defaulted, the case would be over. And they would have found against us, no doubt about it. But you know, and that's the kind of thing we encounter, all along, when we're doing these types of doing these types of cases, like, you know, any technicality that can get us thrown out, even if they have to create one or use one that's been mooted by more recent precedent, they go ahead and do that, like when the judge in, in Missouri decide to throw our case out, our reproductive rights K, it's out after nine months, because of our because our plaintiff couldn't be pregnant anymore. But there is a standard, you know, and it's called capable of repetition yet evading review. And if something can be repeated, if you know, the grievance can can arise again. And any or in any period of time, the judge is obligated to still to review the question of law. And this judge just ignored that standard and said, you know, the case was now moot. And, of course, you know, this is time for me to go on that digression of a tirade about the stupid fuckheads who look at the fact that we lost a case or had a ruling against us and say that the problem is that we don't understand the law or that we have somehow mishandled our claim. And it's just pathetic, it's pathetic to see these groveling idiots, you know, upholding these biased judicial standards, just because they don't like tst. And that's always the case, you know, due to cutting off their nose to spite their face, or whatever the terminology is, it hurts them to, you know, especially when you see people who also self identify as Satanists seeing sayings. See, look at this, the Satanic Temple doesn't understand the law don't support the Satanic Temple, like, the ruling was somehow accurate. And just and we actually don't have our rights and TST just doesn't understand this. Nothing to me could be more pathetic than that or more childish and petty, than to shit on your own rights just despite us. And that's exactly what we see happening with some of these keyboard warriors who all of a sudden, consider themselves legal scholars, because they were so easily talked out of the idea that they have equal rights to everybody else. And nor do they even want them. If if they were going to be asserted by tst. By by

Stephen Bradford Long 08:33
TSD. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's exactly right. Because they would be a presumably a lot of these people would be discriminated against in just the same way because of their minority religious status in a court of law just as much as TST is and

Doug Misicko 08:51
social media chiming in on on the comments on, you know, in my threads or whatever saying, in tell us how many of these suits Have you won, as though you know, as though I should be ashamed of us for having tried to assert our rights at all? So as to the idea. Yeah, you're right, right, as though I should revise my thinking as to whether or not we have equal claims to the Christians who are opening all kinds of doors for exemption and privilege that aren't being offered to us.

Stephen Bradford Long 09:28
Yeah. And as if social progress isn't slow and grueling sometimes, right? I mean, it doesn't.

Doug Misicko 09:34
We're, we're we're fighting for rights that are established rights that we do, in fact path and we have these people telling us that we should know better than to think that we have ever had these rights at all, and that we should accept that we actually don't have them. And to me, that's just that's insane. It's disgusting. It's pathetic, it's servile, it could be nothing. You know, There's there's nothing to be gained from it other than their their petty pathetic sense that that TST shouldn't be the the advocates for it shouldn't even matter who it is, you know, at this, at the point where you're talking fundamental entrenched rights that are being taken away from us, you know, you should realize that there's something greater at play here than any of the individual players. And if it's not obvious in a case like this, it's not obvious in any case, and there's nothing you can do for the, for that type. But, but we press on, but in Boston, it's particularly egregious how the court is handling this, because we had sought to depose the mayor herself, who, as I said, was a council person, when we had offered to give the invocation, the council person who specifically wrote us the denial letter claiming that they had a non discriminatory invitation only policy, the one who apparently had really kind of communicated what the policy was the unwritten policy to the rest of the council. And she was also the same council person who, when TST had offered to give an invocation at all panicked in decided that they should immediately stopped paying the people who are giving the invocations, because not only did they have a policy, it turns out of inviting their friends. And, you know, they they didn't they never say friends, but they say close personal associates, they say, you know, essentially, whomever the city council person wants to invite to give the invocation in that person doesn't even have to be attached to a larger religious organization, or credible spokesperson or religion at all.

Stephen Bradford Long 11:57
... just about to ask that actually, if there was like a primary religion being represented. Like I understand that Boston has a really powerful Catholic community there. Is it like primarily Catholic or is it just, you know, whoever happens to be the friend of someone in city council?

Doug Misicko 12:18
It's it's apparently whomever has a friend in city council. Okay. And at the time, before, before we came around and and asked to give an invocation, and they were getting paid. They were getting paid to be selected, stand up and give a prayer before the city council, they were getting public funds, saying there's so many lines crossed there, we still don't know how much they were getting paid. But it doesn't fucking matter. You should know if you're a public official, that you don't just set up, no bid paying, paying positions with public funds to give out to your friends.

Stephen Bradford Long 12:58
Like are they? What what? Like, what would they get up and say, just out of curiosity, was it just a generic Christian was

Doug Misicko 13:07
interesting to me, too, when we were when we were dealing with this in Arizona, when we had offered to give an invocation in Phoenix, you know, we were looking into the invocations and the prayers that were given, and they actually had a time limit, you know, you had like a minute and a half to say what you were gonna say and then then get off the stage. Boston's even Boston's different even there, they don't seem to have a time limit at all. And one of the videos we saw was a full on outright sermon, you know, you got to come to God, and I'm bringing the blessings. Oh, wow. The One True God on this, on this body, the council and all that kind of thing. And it was very much proselytizing and very much fire and brimstone. And it was, frankly amazing to me that I did that Boston in general isn't in a state of outrage about this, you know, boss sins, generally a liberal place and for them to turn the city council meetings into a full on fucking sermon seem just insane to me. And it was also insane to me that there wasn't general outrage about the fact that the City Council were paying their friends to give prayers before the meetings. And also further amazing to me was that when we brought this to the to the light, and put out a press release about it and everything, like hardly anybody picked it up, you know, in fact, only I think the Friendly Atheist on only sky was the only other article I can think of that that references at all. In to Me, it's just, it's just insane. But the way we're being treated in court is more insane than that. We had tried to depose Michelle Wu on November 2, who is Michelle was, you know, she was the one who was Part of the city council and now is made now its Mayor got it. Okay. In November 2 was Election Day for her mayoral campaign. And, you know, the the legal counsel for Boston, decided that this was surely harassment that we were doing this and that we wanted publicity for what was going on here, in that it was totally inappropriate for us to try to schedule a deposition on November 2, and you know, where I'm coming from, it doesn't fucking matter in it. And to be clear, like, how do we know, like, election day might be the best day for her to do it? You know, you're essentially jobless, then you're waiting to know, why can't you'd be deposed anybody else, and a job, you know, they can have meetings that day, they're gonna be expected to reschedule the meetings on their job and come in for the deposition. And I don't think public officials should be treated differently. Like the judge disagreed, and invoked, the idea that Michelle Wu is a high ranking government official, and putting a protective order on her for November 2. And, you know, in typical legal process, you know, you you would demand that another date be scheduled instead, you know, she got a protective order in the judge really leaned into this idea that we were seeking publicity. And to me, that is entirely inappropriate for a judge to even question because, yes, we want to bring publicity to this, we want people to understand what the government is doing in their name, we definitely are putting out press releases, we want people to understand what's going on here. And there is nothing wrong with that. And a judge should know that, you know, a judge can't say, well, you're seeking publicity. And the judge further leaned into this, you can see, you know, I posted some snippets from the motions in the rulings on my Patreon piece that I put on, that's on, you know, on my Patreon, and recently tweeted out it as a pinned tweet. And when people listen to this, I'm sure it'll still be there.

Stephen Bradford Long 17:22
And I'll link it as well in the show notes, so people can find it in the show notes as well.

Doug Misicko 17:28
Right. The judge has gone on to characterize what we are doing as solely for publicity, you know, it's not enough to say that it's wrong without seeking it.

Stephen Bradford Long 17:40
Yeah. It's a troll, in other words.

Doug Misicko 17:42
Yeah, right. Right, this idea that we really don't have any true belief in what we're doing. But if we're seeking publicity on any part of this, and the sole motive here is publicity, which is not for a judge to examine and determine anyways, with no other information on hand. You know, the judge is making these rulings in advance of there actually being a trial, in put this, put this protective order on Michelle Wu, and it did say that the protective order was for this deposition on November 2, but then went on to talk about all these impermissible antics of ours, and this seeking publicity in this in this idea that, you know, because she's a high ranking government official, that we need to prove that she has a personal involvement. And I mean, we already have she, she definitely does. And she was the one to, you know, write the denial and all that. But then, Boston's attorneys had asserted that there were 47 other people who could give the same answer answers as Michelle Wu that we hadn't bothered to try to depose. And the judge nonsensically put that forward as an argument saying, like, well, you know, there's all these lower ranking government officials who could answer to this, you know, why not them? And, you know, why wouldn't any of them say why don't you talk to any of the 46 others you know, what, when? When was that a valid excuse? Somebody else could answer your question. So you can't choose the person who you know fucking well can answer your questions.

Stephen Bradford Long 19:16
Right. So it's all just very arbitrary like like throwing up every arbitrary barrier possible to to make this not progress.

Doug Misicko 19:26
Well, in the judge also made the nonsensical claim that because this is an establishment claim, an establishment clause claim that the policy itself is in dispute, not the subjective interpretations and treatments of the individual council members so we can bring up for review the policy, but not the subjective intent of any of the counselors or mayor Whoo. In this makes zero sense, especially when you don't even have a written policy, but you have them differing specifically and openly to the subjective interests of the council members, right. So what we're seeing is a judge just setting up impossible hurdles for us to try to get past to describe the obvious here that we're being discriminated against. If you just draw back and look at what's going on, we're clearly being discriminated against, we have outside religious speakers coming in, and speaking before public meetings at a public forum, and they were for a time getting public funds to do it. And we don't have any access to that. And we're being told that somehow, you know, through all these contortions of the law in our, in our inability to prosecute this, that, you know, this discrimination isn't taking place, or we're somehow unable to prove it, because we're being hamstrung every step of the way. And, you know, we gave, we had our deposition with a representative from the city of Boston. And as I was explaining earlier, she sat there with a shitting and grin on her face the whole time, telling us again and again, that the only person who could possibly answer our questions was Michelle Woo. And we knew that when she was sitting there doing this, and when she had that smug fucking look on her face, that she felt that the protective order for November 2 was going to stand up in perpetuity, and that we never get to talk to Michelle Whoo. So we filed with the court saying that, you know, we would we would like to depose Michelle Wu and and in have this idea in be able to appeal this, this protective order, for which the judge came back all pissed off, saying that we had misread the order that it was only for, for November 2, that there was nothing to appeal, because, because we had misread the order, and even went so far to accuse us of incompetence, for having even suggested that Michelle Wu was was shielded from from depositions in perpetuity. So then, of course, we subpoenaed Michelle Wu. And we said, All right, you know, now now we've had this deposition with the representative Boston told us again and again, that there were relevant questions that only she could answer, to which the judge came back and, you know, again, threatened sanctions and said that we just could not impose Michelle Wu that we hadn't established that we had any need to do so. And that, you know, we could always try to Motion to reconsider the protective order against her, which we had learned just in the last ruling was moot to begin with, because it was only for November 2, in saying that, you know, we just couldn't we couldn't do this. And, essentially, that the there's this judge has no, no willingness to allow this case to move forward.

Stephen Bradford Long 23:15
And is that where it ended?

Doug Misicko 23:16
No, we actually filed with the Department of Justice to get the judge recused in the Department of Justice responded, before they could have possibly done any investigation with just a form letter saying that they weren't going to investigate this. Right. Okay. So I really feel like we need to fight this battle in the public eye as much as we can. And, you know, we've tried with with the pray for pay. But on a press release, I reached out to some journalists, I tried to get people to write about it, that they wouldn't, you know, in now, we're putting together videos from the depositions and trying to just outline for people how insane this is. I mean, the, the judge has already said so many insane things about this, about her understanding of what an establishment clause claim even means, you know, the judge has already stated that she feels that the policy itself, the unwritten policy that we can't really have any evidence of, because we can't get anybody to talk about it. And it's not in writing is not is not a violation of the establishment clause, because individual counselors inviting religious speakers to speak to the religion that they want to endorse is not an endorsement of religion somehow, because it's similar to legislative prayers in which an individual legislator will give their own prayer that echoes or mirrors the religion of their choice. So all of this is just these convoluted ways of trying to call discrimination by another name. That gives them some availability to say, oh, it's not They actually discriminatory, you know? Oh, if you were if you have a Satanist on the city council, they can they can invite a Satanist, which doesn't change the fact that, you know, you have a government body, some entity here, that's just allowed to discriminate. It doesn't matter if you're saying like, well, you can get to that position one day and discriminate also, like the discrimination isn't supposed to be happening now. And it's not supposed to be happening with the understanding that, well, if you get into that position, you can discriminate against people later. Therefore, it's nondiscriminatory. Fucking stupid to realize that that's fucking stupid. And the only reason they get away with it is because we have people who are so gullible, that they're amenable to these arguments, like anytime you see one of these fuckheads on social media saying, Hey, I'm a Satanist. But the Satanic Temple has it all wrong, and they don't understand the law, you got to recognize that you're just dealing with a fuckhead, who's willing to throw away everybody's rights, just to spite us and be willing to abandon core principles of democracy, just because they have some kind of spite against a particular group.

Stephen Bradford Long 26:23
You know, there's something that's so interesting to me about this particular case, which is that it's in Boston, Boston is like a northeast city, it's generally progressive it from what I understand it does have like a strong Trad Catholic presence, but I understand it to be generally fairly progressive. And so there's something about this that kind of breaks the narrative, you know, this isn't this isn't Oklahoma, this isn't, you know, some city in Texas or Scottsdale, or whatever the case may be. This is a big progressive city. And I wonder, and I wonder if that changes how people respond to this story, where it's like, it's not it isn't a it? Is it? Just trying to figure trying to think like, what is the motivation behind these actions on the part of the city council? Is it? Is it because they have a religious it because they have a religious conviction as as Christians or something, or or is it something else?

Doug Misicko 27:38
And I think there's two things going on here. The Boston is so blase about this, in their activities are so flagrant, because the city has a long tradition of being corrupt. Okay. They, they have a long tradition of greased palms, and just just government corruption overall. And another part of that is the public's refusal to deal with it. And I think, I mean, I just have to be very blunt about this. And in this era of polarization, we get people... I lose people all the time, just because they can't...

Stephen Bradford Long 28:17
They can stop listening, they can rage quit, it's fine. No one cares.

Doug Misicko 28:21
Right. Right. But the fact is, is that, you know, it's a liberal state, and they will let the Democrats get away with murder.

Stephen Bradford Long 28:29
It's true. Yes, it's true. It's true here.

Doug Misicko 28:33
It's true in Boston, and therefore, the Democrats in Boston are corrupt as fuck, and they get away with it. And in the case of, of, of the Austin City Council right now, you know, their comfort level, the reason they can walk into these depositions, and with a smile on their face, tell us, you know, you have to ask Michelle who fully knowing that we won't be able to talk to her, it's because they're comfortable in their relationship with the judge. Right? And they know, the judge is on their side. That's how they're comfortable defaulting twice. They didn't give a fuck, you know, they took their fucking vacation, they came back and said, alright, we'll file later. You know, it was, it was a casual pass.

29:20
It was casual discrimination, and just a feeling of that they have absolutely nothing to lose. They're completely secure.

Doug Misicko 29:29
Right? You have a segment of the left that likes to cry about systemic corruption. And they don't seem to know what that means. Because they don't do anything to try to reform the system. They always go after individuals, and then they act like oh, if we just get this person in the proper public office, then somehow it's all magically going to be fixed when to tell you the truth. It doesn't matter what the identity of somebody is. If they fall into a corrupt system, it's all too easy to just fall into corruption. Have we got a mayor in everybody gushed over the fact that it's the first Asian woman mayor in there still enthralled by that. And they still feel like she couldn't possibly do any wrong or engage in the type of corruption in their use to because she has that qualification going for her. Well, you know, she fell right into the system in the system needs to be reformed, and we can't lose sight of that. And, you know, we're being treated unfairly. But we're being treated unfairly by Democrats, the judge is a Biden appointee. And if he can't deal with that, then, you know, you came to the wrong place for the fight, because it doesn't matter to us who you are, you know, equality is equality, and this is what it is. And, you know, I don't buy into that whole thing, where it's like, well, we got bigger fish to fry right now. No, these are, these are the big fish, we have to have to fry. You know, regardless of who's in office, or who's or who's eroding our equal rights. It just, it just doesn't matter. Yeah. And that's, I feel like, that's where we're at right now. But I feel like that's why, you know, whereas we might have had a lot of local reporters interested in this, if it were any other party, if Oh, yeah, if it were a different courtroom, if it were a different different mayor, or whomever else, you know, they're, they're not as interested in it right now. And that's the real damage of polarization. You know, it makes people accept the worst on on their side of the dispute. You know, all of a sudden, the corruption that's being engaged in by both sides is ignored, for the benefit of both sides, you know, by their individual camps, you know, the Republicans will cry about the Democrats and Democrats will cry about the Republicans. But at the point where things have reached the fever pitch that they're at right now, they're disinclined to make the same complaints they're making against the one side against their own side. So it's like we're at a race to the bottom, you know, to make sure that, that the corruption on on either side remains unexplored.

32:15
You know, it's like, it becomes like team sports, where no matter what your team does, if it wins, it's good. And so we have this this deeply ingrained, I think it's just human instinct, where we have this deeply ingrained thing in the human mind, where it's team sports, and if my team, you know, succeeds, no matter the cost, or no matter how or why, then that's good. And if the other team fails, then that's good. And we had a certain point, you're not standing for anything. Exactly. We're not standing for anything. And and just because the Republicans are a death, Colt does not mean that the Democrats are suddenly sanctified, right? Like, just because the Republicans are a are a fucking death cult that are, you know, truly terrifying. And if people want to hear more about that, they can listen to our previous conversation, where we talked about Roe v. Wade, where, you know, you were you were talking about how you expect blasphemy laws to be on the horizon. So but But that fact does not mean that suddenly Democrats or liberals or leftists, or what have you, are suddenly not human, are suddenly not prone to human foibles? And, and human corruption and human distortions of thought? And...

Doug Misicko 33:43
Right, yeah, don't don't get me wrong. I do fully believe that the GOP poses an existential threat to the United States, right now, in that, you know, I feel that Trump was a continuation of George W. Bush, and the next Republican president is going to be a continuation of Trump if it's not Trump, and we have to do everything we can to prevent that. But that should not stop us from from litigating for our equal rights. It should not we were fighting to preserve when we fight the Republicans, by just abandoning those two, any democratic concerns. It's just that's insane at that point, like Why Why fight the Republicans at all, you know, in a rational world, we wouldn't be so polarized and we'd have a rational second party in the Republicans. And we could be hammering on the government institutions we have that are so reliant on lobbyists, support in moneyed interests and other things like that. At this point, that's all but forgotten, because we're fighting to preserve basic rights of free speech and civil rights and other such things. But, you know, abandoned In our principals, just because I don't know, we think that's where our team is at that's that's the show is that we're not not aligned with a team for any productive purpose to begin with.

35:11
Do you ever get derided for, quote unquote, sticking to your principles for being? Because I do, you know, I will, I will, you know, if I'm if I find myself in some political debate, and it's an unpopular position in some way, I will always, you know, eventually just come down to well, this, this is based on this principle, this principle being the principle of free speech. The First Amendment is based on a principle it is based on a philosophical and cultural principle. And I believe that that pre existing principle that free speech is based on or that that the First Amendment is based on is pretty fucking good. So I'm going to defend it. And I there's always this turn in the conversation that happens when I bring up the topic of principles, which is oh, well, if if all you I don't even know what the objection is, but there seems to be this weird objection to principled action. And I don't get it. And I'm curious if you get the same response when you bring up when you bring up the topic of like, prior principles that are motivating your actions?

Doug Misicko 36:32
Well, yeah, no, we get that all the time.

36:34
And because it's driving me crazy, I'm starting to feel like I'm going insane, like, what? What is going on? Because I, I've had these conversations multiple times.

Doug Misicko 36:44
That's the story of tst. Up to this point, right, is, we've been assaulted, I think, from the very beginning, on the grounds that we hold the principles. And it's just because I feel like we have such unprincipled movements taking place that kind of go with whichever way the wind has shifted, to make proclamations of convenience that are narrowly applied to specific situations. And when you're running an organization, you just can't do that. So you can't say that, you know, you're going to set up some kind of framework by which you subjectively evaluate every situation and decide what's best for optics at any given moment. Because it just becomes insensible in meaningless after a while, you know, it just becomes people's personal playgrounds for grandstanding or whatever. And there's no way that we could put a system in place that would do that, where I would feel comfortable ever stepping away from the position I'm in, or know that if I suddenly die, or whatever, that people can rely on TST to be what it is, because we've taken a principled stand on anything. I think we owe it to, you know, people have a more sophisticated mindset to know that we're going to hold the certain principles and that we have some predictable stance when it comes to certain things. And that we're not going to be pressured by people in the moment saying that, you know, optics demands or whatever else that we take a different position that totally violates, you know, the the very tenants that we hold to, and we've been asked to do that again and again, you know, and it's been demanded of us that we do that again and again. And people have disparaged us to no end, for holding to our principles again, and again. But in all honesty, I think that when all is said and done, and all this shakes out in things, when we come back to a more reasonable time, hopefully, we will have stood the test of time because of that, you know, whereas other organizations I've seen, are trying to accommodate, lose lose situation demands. Yeah, you know, in real time as they come up not holding two distinct values or principles, but revising them just based on how wildly people bitch, and, you know, eventually they fall apart. You know, so I feel like as painful as it's been, for us to stick to it and say, No, we're not doing this, you know, we're not, we're not trying to, we're not going to go out and try to co opt other people's protests, you know, in our name, just because you think it would be good optics and take the gamble of, you know, us being denigrated for being there and making everybody else look bad. You know, that kind of thing, when we're going to play plays straight the way the way we've always done and I think, I think that that will give us our longevity, but you know, it also always gives people fuel to complain, but they're going to look for things and find things in one way or the other and So long as we remain coherent, I think we're better off.

Stephen Bradford Long 40:05
I think a really good example of, of sticking to principles I had, when Mac is IO was on TSDS legal counsel and he was on I forget when it was a few months ago might have been at the end of last year. I don't even remember anymore. But he he talked some about the I don't even know what the technical legal term is a brief about church militant defending church militants, right to free speech. Could you dry? Could you talk some about that? Because I think that that is actually a very good example of being consistent in our principles, and where a lot of people on Twitter saw this as as evidence that TST is, is crypto fascist and enabling.

40:59
Alright, you'll see those dumb shits throw that in there all the time. Oh, yeah. All the time. I want to preface this by saying like, I can't stand those assholes at church militant. Oh, this isn't about them their rules? Yes, I published an article that said that I was a registered sex offender or something like that. And and we reached out to them immediately and said, Don't know where the fuck you got this. But you know, you better you got you have to retract this right away. Yeah. And he sent them the note in CC to a lawyer on it. So they, without even saying like, Oh, we were misinformed, or saying where this came from? They just said, okay, sorry, we'll correct that. And that was it. And I think that's how Church Militant plays it and fuck them. And they've tried to protest everything we've done as we've done it, and they even showed up at our unveiling event, because I think they're based in Michigan, we did that in Detroit. Like, there is no love between Church Militant in me or, or the Satanic Temple in general, just the same. They were gonna do a rally in the city of Baltimore, tried to apply prior restraint on them and said that they couldn't speak. And now to be clear, like it, you know, the Church Militant rally was going to absolutely be of a right wing Catholic nature. And I think they even had the asshole Steve Bannon speaking at it, and, you know, van and I hope, I think he's going to prison. But I hope he has a long horrific time there. Yeah, he No, he won't, you know, I'm sure he'll, you'll get the country club treatment. But if there was ever a piece of shit really deserving of a real horrific experience in prison, it's a piece of shit. Right? Yeah. So you know, but it's not about that you can't allow pieces of shit like that, to justify the government taking it upon themselves to issue prior restraint and say that suddenly your ability to associate is moot and null and void. Yep. You know, I'm very much against that you are giving the government then a power that they should never have. So with no love for church militant? You know, we filed in an amicus brief, a friend of the courts brief saying that, you know, we we didn't think it was appropriate for them to have this power to, to, to prevent this, this rally from happening. And and that was taken into consideration with the court. And that's what it was, you know, and, and the funny part was, is that, at the rally TST members showed up to the protest, and yep, you know, the, and the church, militant people were, were outraged at their presence and everything else. And, you know, I have no problem, like the TSP, people should be their protest. That's free speech.

Stephen Bradford Long 43:59
That's free speech and action. This is...

Doug Misicko 44:01
We should also, we should also be filing the brief saying that, you know, the city of Baltimore has no fucking right, as a government entity to prevent this rally from taking place. And I know this, I apparently this is confusing, even to adults who don't understand how you can take both positions simultaneously. But to me, they are not in conflict whatsoever in any way at all. And, you know, if you're having a difficult time understanding that, then you then you know, you're going to have a difficult time understanding a lot of things that we do, yeah, and the way that we go about them. But that's, that's the reality. And that's where I'm coming from, you know, protest against groups that are speaking is totally legitimate when you fully disagree with their viewpoint or think that it's destructive in some way. But that is not the same as saying that the government has any right to intervene.

44:58
I don't know I'm trying to come up With a metaphor for this, and I, and I'm struggling, but when I had...

Doug Misicko 45:05
I mean, there's there's, it's a real shame what's happened to the ACLU? Oh, no, you absolutely have to explain this to everybody until they got overtaken by people saying that no, they actually don't have any responsibility to uphold the free speech rights of people who actually engage in the most offensive types of speech. And it's...

Stephen Bradford Long 45:29
Well, fire is now taken on that role.

Doug Misicko 45:32
Yeah, it completely goes against everything the ACLU stood for. And I don't know what's going on with the ACLU. Now, I'm sure they still have a lot of decent people who hold to the values that, you know, the national organization is begun to abdicate more and more. But I feel like in this environment, everybody has been feeling less and less inclined to speak up about it in the ways that the ACLU used to.

46:01
Yeah, no, definitely. And when I was talking to Jonathan Roush several weeks ago, on the show, the metaphor of kind of rules of the road, you know, of following stoplights, and following signs, and all of that, and driving on the correct side of the road and so on. Those are like the the foundational rules of free speech. And without those rules, those are not, that is not a defending those rules is not an it is not like a an ethical of an an an ethical endorsement of maybe like the drug cartel. That is, you know, trafficking humans and drugs along that highway. Instead, it is a neutral principle where you aren't necessarily condoning what's going on on the road, or what's being carried along the road. But instead, you are maintaining the road for the sake of civilization, you're maintaining the road for the sick, so that commerce, so that communication, so that even policing, so that this, you know, vast intricate balance of human commerce and engagement can continue and thrive. When those when those rules and the and those roads start to fall apart, then everything that goes on on top of those roads, also falls apart. And so that's, that's like the metaphor that that I am working with right now, in terms of free speech, to defend someone's free speech is not to defend the beliefs of that person. Right. And I don't think that people realize how common government infringement upon people's free speech actually are like several months ago, I had on Adam Goldstein from fire. He's a lawyer, with the foundation for our what is it? Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, now Foundation for Individual Rights and expression where they're now kind of taking on the mantle of what the ACLU has dropped, which is actually defending people's legal rights. But you know, when I was talking to him, he was like, Yeah, I mean, on college on State campuses that get funding from the state, the amount of infringement upon students free speech, in ways that are just blatantly wrong and unconstitutional and illegal. And it's usually arbitrary shit, it's usually an administrator not wanting to be criticized, it's usually and it's almost always a case of power. It's always a matter of a of a power, not liking someone's speech, and therefore suppressing it, and it happens all the fucking time. But we have to maintain those, those kind of bedrock foundations in order for our society to function well, and we confuse we emotionally confused to different levels of analysis, when like people accuse tsp of supporting Church Militant, when TST released that amicus brief about church militants, free speech. It's this emotional confusion between two different levels of analysis. One level of analysis is about simply maintaining the foundations upon which our society works. Whereas the other level of analysis, the higher level of analysis maybe is, those is tsp members can go and protest upon that bedrock foundation of free speech. Am I making any sense I like I'm, I'm trying to articulate it.

Doug Misicko 49:58
I feel like there was a simpler said tuition were even the most dense could possibly understand this. There was the I forget the name of that worth plus asshole who was glorified by the right because she wouldn't she wouldn't sign a marriage certificate for a gay couple.

Stephen Bradford Long 50:19
Kim Davis?

Doug Misicko 50:21
Yeah, well, it was Mike Huckabee who ended up having some kind of rally in her defense at some point, right. And at that rally, they played the song, I have the Tiger by some shitty band, and piney mountain, like the 70s or whatever. And then the band was demanding something around like $20,000 for the use of that that song. And everybody was applauding this as like, Yeah, take that fucking Mike Huckabee. And I felt like I was the only person thinking like, who was saying, wait a minute, you know? Like, does the band really deserve? $20,000? Because this played overhead, like, is it really going to cut into their profits? Are people going to watch video of this rally in order to hear the song to the to the degree that it would have lost some $20,000 of royalties? Because this song happened to be playing at the rally is that the argument being made here, and now, you know, everybody was cheering for that? These guys trying to submit an invoice for $20,000. Now we have found, you know, if we do events, or if we're speaking publicly, some asshole from the religious right, or, you know, or anti satanist or, or anti TST, or whatever is going to come and they're going to be playing copy written music, mainstream music, you know, they're going to be blasting it in hopes of ruining our chance of free broadcasting any, any bit of war. Right? It's common practice now.

52:04
Tt sets the precedent, in other words, so So right, right shouldn't tear something that sets a precedent for our own, you know, eventual undoing.

Doug Misicko 52:14
Right? You just can't have that knee jerk response of Oh, yeah. Fuck Mike Huckabee, you have to think about the broader implications of any of this. And that is why I, you know, we had a lawyer who eventually was hired by Alex Jones. And people consider this to be some kind of collusion between us and Alex Jones and the right or whatever, which is also an absurd conspiracy theory. But also, for as much as I am on the record for all of my 10 years, in TST, wanting to beat the shit out of Alex Jones. Yep, I do not mind that this lawyer would defend Alex Jones in court. Yeah, I honestly don't, I don't get it. I do Alex Jones to have good legal representation in court. Because I don't want an ignorant, irresponsible fuckhead, like Alex Jones, to erode our rights anymore, because people are trying acting irresponsibly, just to spite him.

Stephen Bradford Long 53:16
I think that there's an inevitable response to all of this, which is okay, so I get it in principle, but how do we square this philosophical principle of free speech with the inevitable harm that comes that Pete and the inevitable hurt that people experience and in response in reaction to hurtful speech? And I know how I respond to that, but how do you respond to that, like, yeah,

Doug Misicko 53:51
I respond to that by saying, like, I think right now, the status quo of free speech that we're trying to uphold, you know, and it's not free speech, absolutism, you know, we will I do, leave that room, or, you know, prosecuting defamation, which I think is necessary, you know, taking the task, those who direct the call out with threats of violence, that that, you know, can can really reasonably have a real world impact on somebody, uh, you just can't, you just can't leave that up to somebody subject subjective analysis to say, Well, somewhere down the line, somebody's maligned enough where somebody feels, you know, there has to be an objective measure of somebody. Right? Well, there needs to be an objective measure of what's harmful, right. And there needs to be a real, there needs to be a high bar on that. So you don't give somebody the room to wiggle room to just say, Well, you know, I can conceive of a world in which you know, this leads to somebody hurting somebody else, you know, you need to have a high standard for that. But, you know, my response to what do you do when this inevitably does hurt people is just to say that, you know, there may not be a perfect solution to that this is might just be a situation where it's the least worst solution on hand. And, you know, further restrictions, I think, go in the direction of autocracy and our are worse than being in a situation in which we have, you know, a more open marketplace of ideas, which, you know, I'll admit the marketplace of ideas is become a, an imperfect analogy, more so now with the social media environment and the algorithms that determine which what we see in the, in that forum. But just the same, you know, I just haven't found a solution on, you know, repealing people's free speech rights that I think is better overall.

55:57
Yeah, you know, I, I agree with all of that. I feel like sometimes, and this might just be me projecting. So I might be completely miss reading the room here. But I feel like sometimes when I voice my defense of free speech, and the principles of free speech, and I sometimes feel like whenever this comes up, the assumption is that I have never truly suffered as a result of the of the words of someone else. And that if I sufficiently understood the depths of suffering, that that people experience as a consequence of words that maybe the maybe I wouldn't be as idealistic and principled, and I just kind of find that offensive, because here's the thing, I grew up gay in the conservative church were I was almost I was suicidal, I almost killed myself, because I internalized words that were said to me, I internalized theologies that were said to me, and a lot of my life's work has been dedicated to trying to ensure that other young LGBTQ people don't have to live through that, that they don't have to live through that repressive religious regime. And I did really horrible self injury, physical self injury to myself as as a direct result of words that were said to me, that I internalized about my sexuality, my arms are just a complete lattice work, you know, 20 years later, 15 years later, because of this experience. And even with that, I am still an ardent defender of free speech, because I know that to encroach on freedom of speech is to encroach upon my rights as a minority to speak my mind and all liberties that I have. All freedoms that I have, are predicated on that. Maybe not all, but a good fucking number of them. And so this, this idea that I'm somehow pro speech, because I haven't been adequately wounded, by the effect of words, is just crazy. And I want to create a world where, where those ideas no longer exist, I want to create a world where those harmful homophobic ideas, they no longer exist. And gay young people don't have to experience what I experienced. However, the way to do that is not by legislating them out of existence. And I and I just find this whole notion of if I haven't suffered, I, I haven't suffered adequately enough to understand why speech should be legislated against why speech should be shut down by the state. And for anyone listening to this, who says, who's saying that no one is saying that that never happens. Yes, it does. It happens quite often. And, you know, the case that Lucien just outlined, outlined in Boston is just one of many examples of where it happens. But in answer to the question, How do you square you know, the hurt that people experience with this principle of free speech? The answer is as that's the cost of speech, and it's a tough one, a terrible cost.

Doug Misicko 59:40
What people don't realize if you think you you understand what we're talking about with the Boston case, and that's obviously discrimination. But then you feel lost on this part of the dialogue. You have to realize we're talking about the same fucking thing in their minds it there's nothing different about Got it. Like, there's nothing different about saying, Yeah, but it's Church Militant. It's no different than the Boston City Council being like, Yeah, but But it's Satanists, but it's Satan. exactly who it doesn't matter. It doesn't focus on, it's not up to them to say so into, you know, even though Church Militant, you know, erroneously reported that I was a sex offender. And in probably did that willfully and intentionally, I still do not see it as appropriate for the government to issue prior restraint. If they had had their rally, they had gotten up and said, you know, that if they had talked about me, and said that I'm an exploitative, predatory pedophile or something like that, you know, I wouldn't feel that I had been corrected, and that they shouldn't, and that Baltimore should have engaged in prior restraint to keep them from speaking, I would litigate after the fact. And I would say, you know, and I would try to bring the full weight of the law against them. But you just can't allow them to stop somebody, before they've before they've even delivered their words. You can't, you can't make those assumptions. You can't, you can't go down that path. And and we shouldn't we shouldn't allow that in any case. And I hope that, you know, drawing that connection between this Boston case, and the amicus brief, on behalf of that rally, you know, begins to make sense to people and begins to make them see what it means to stand on principle.

1:01:35
Yeah, exactly. I mean, offense is all offense is deeply subjective. And I find myself struggling to communicate this sometimes, like I was once a conservative Christian, I can tell people that the disgust and offense that I felt and that other fellow Christians felt towards things like feminism and homosexuality, and quote unquote, sexual deviancy and atheism is, is a very much on par with the disgust that I now feel, and the you know, how revolting I now think Church Militant is, and I objectively think that they are, this isn't an argument for relativism, it's rather to say that the force of the feeling of disgust or insult is not in and of itself sufficient. Right? It and I sometimes feel like us, us lefties, we we become so insulated within our kind of progressive, maybe atheistic or secular notions of what's right and wrong, that, that we just have this failure of empathy. Where I

Doug Misicko 1:02:50
think a lot of people have a failure to understand principle and that, that can be seen when, you know, they, they also say to me that I don't understand what the damage can be in free speech and how this harms people who are marginalized, because I'll hear this from people who know full fucking well, but I've dealt with death threats this entire time. Yeah, that there have been people who've acted out violence burned down or you know, lit our headquarters on fire, that we've had to deal with all kinds of things that I have to that I have to live a life on the run essentially, and do everything I can to maintain my privacy for fear that somebody come to my house or whatever. And yet, they still don't recognize because they've got it in their mindset being a white sis male magically exonerates me from from any difficulties that might be that might be had here in the fact that they don't recognize a marginalized and maligned, discriminated against minority group when they see one. But they need those pointed out for them in advance before their attitude kicks in that that demands equality for all. Because, you know, Satanists might be new on the scene when it comes to fighting for civil rights. But you should be able to recognize that we are in fact, a maligned, marginalized minority group when you see it in the fact that they can't, or Anita pointed out for them shows that, you know, very little ability to stand on principle with anything.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:38
Yeah, we'll Well, I'm sure as soon as the Boston as soon as there's any development in Boston or do you think it's done? Do you think it's over with Boston? With the Boston City Council?

Doug Misicko 1:04:50
It's, it's not not done for us. I mean, the judge has made it clear that the judge is not going to humor any of our any Have our arguments. But you know, we're going to do the best we can to, to make as big of a public display of this. I mean, for some reason, they're anti publicity. And we're going to try to bring as much publicity to this as we can.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:05:13
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, we'll it'll be really interesting to see how this goes forward. And I'm sure we'll we'll have you on again to talk about it.

Doug Misicko 1:05:23
I don't I don't have high hopes. But I honestly think that this, you know, we're on the frontline, and we're at. And we're nearing the end of the war, you know, and we have to do everything we can. And at this point, I feel like we have to rely on an outraged public response to bring any sense of shame to the courts. Yeah. And I don't have high hopes for that. But we either try,

1:05:48
we have to try. I mean, I don't have high hopes for it, because it isn't this, you know, it isn't a far right Supreme Court. It isn't the right story right now for you know, our fellow progressives to get angry over it's it's like democratic corruption. And that's just not that's just not in vogue right now. On the left, it used to be there were so you know, it used to be very in vogue, you know, like lefties be very angry about established, there's a lot

Doug Misicko 1:06:17
of confusion, because, yeah, on the one hand, you know, there's a lot of like, fuck, the whole system is corrupt. And then mysteriously, when we get ruled against, it's like, well, you guys don't understand the law, you know, right. When When did you become such a good citizen, that you just accept a ruling handed down to you, that tells you you don't have equal rights? Right, and then you then you blame the person who tried to litigate to begin with, it's the amount of the amount of stupid I see on social media on any given day is more than the amount of stupid I feel like I used to witness in any given year,

1:06:55
you know, our mutual friend, Carrie, Poppy, she talked me into getting feed blockers for all social media. And it is like, it is the best fucking thing ever. So when I log on to Twitter, there's just a blank screen, I can still I can still see notifications, I can still you know, go and check on specific people. So you know, I go and check on you. And you know, other other say, 20 people and I have my lists on Twitter that I curate and I can follow, but the main feed is just blissfully empty. And so all all of that screaming I don't hear I don't hear any of the you know, insane, deranged, howling over whatever stupid bullshit is going on that day. I don't see any of the trends. It's beautiful. Highly recommend. It is the best. Yeah,

Doug Misicko 1:07:49
I have to check that out.

1:07:50
Yeah, I can. I can send it to you. It's great. Yeah, I'll send it to you after the conversation. All right. Well, I think that's a good note to end on. As always, I feel like we can go much longer but I I need to turn in soon. But this has been fabulous. And yeah, I'm sure we'll have you on again and we will continue this conversation. Well, anytime as you know. Absolutely. All right. Well, that is it for this show. The music is by eleventy seven the theme song is wild. You can find it on Apple Music Spotify, or wherever you listen to music This show is written produced and edited by me Steve and Bradford long and it is supported by my patrons@patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long there is also a link in the show notes if you would like to support me, and as always Hail Satan. And thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STThreatofTheocracy

2022-10-11T08:06:14Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STThreatofTheocracy
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, satanist, fucking, satanic temple, point, tst, understand, gay marriage, called, gay, act, absolutely, marginalized, salem, feel, podcast, speaking, theocratic, expressed, christian
SPEAKERS
Doug Misicko, Stephen Bradford Long

Stephen Bradford Long 00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast this is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com I just looked by the way at the episode count, I am just shy of 200 episodes. So I have said that opening line 200 fucking times.

Doug Misicko 00:46
So do you hold the weekly or I tried

Stephen Bradford Long 00:49
to do weekly? I tried to do weekly Yeah. Anyway, this is Steven Bradford long. And before we get started with Lucien Greaves, I have to thank my patrons as always, my patrons are my personal lords and saviors and I could not do this show without them. They maintain my debilitating content creation addiction. And believe me, it is absolutely fucking debilitating. It takes up hundreds of hours. One show can take up to four or five hours a week to produce so I need all of the help I can get or else I'll end up on the street under a bridge sucking dicks for loose change. Nothing against that. I just don't want to do that to fund my

Doug Misicko 01:34
Oh, okay. You don't want to I was saying you could still do

Stephen Bradford Long 01:39
this true. I do. I want to maybe just not under a bridge. All right. All right. So for this week, out in the rain. Rain is fine. Rain is fun. All right. So for this week, I have to thank Michael Sam IL, Nick's Ward and f v. Thank you so much. I truly could not do the show without you. And for listeners who are interested, just go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long for $1 a month, or $5 a month. You get extra content every single week including my house of heretics podcast with the former Salvation Army officer turned Christian heretic Timothy McPherson. We talk about various things news, theology, Christianity, Satanism, philosophy, meditation, whatever is on our mind that week very often from our dissonant perspectives. He is a Christian, I am a Satanist. It's always a good time. Patrons also get to listen in and join in on the conversation via the chat every Wednesday morning. It is always fun. All right. So if that interests you go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long. There is also a link in the show notes Lucien Greaves, co founder and spokesperson for the Satanic Temple. Hello, welcome back.

Doug Misicko 02:59
Well, good to be back. Thank you.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:01
Yeah. A lot has happened since we last talked on this show. And would

Doug Misicko 03:07
you like to begin?

Stephen Bradford Long 03:09
Well, I would like to talk some about the arson attack at TST headquarters. Because we did. We did a show on your Patreon. And everyone can go listen to that. And everyone can also give you money so you don't have to suck dicks under a bridge. So that is patreon.com forward slash Lucien Greaves. Is that right?

Doug Misicko 03:35
Correct. Yeah, that said, I also leave my posts publicly available to people to see and hope they'll subscribe if they liked the content. But if you can't pay, you can still can still enjoy the content. If if that's something you like,

Stephen Bradford Long 03:52
you're such a better person than I am.

Doug Misicko 03:55
Well, that's a risk. Yeah, it's worked out so far. I didn't I didn't notice when I went public like that, that it really impacted. Well, that's gonna certainly, I don't know now, because it's been a while. Maybe I would do a lot better if I didn't do that. But, but it's working.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:12
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So everyone can go listen to that conversation that we had. And now we had that conversation. I think like a day after

Doug Misicko 04:22
it happened. Yeah, it certainly wasn't very long afterwards. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 04:26
it was like a day or two afterwards and so it was still very fresh for me and for you and for everyone for our entire religious community. So for people who aren't aware of what happened go ahead and just kind of tell people the facts on the ground of of what happened that night this was back in June, early June or may Yeah.

Doug Misicko 04:47
So in in a guy I'm terrible with the passage of time and keeping measure of it but yeah, me to some guy in a T shirt that just said God on it in bold lead. Here's just came arching up to the front door of the Satanic Temple headquarters in Salem. One night he was wearing a baby blue backward baseball cap and he threw what I still believe is butane on the front door and on the front deck area which is all made of wood and lit it on fire. I saw it on the security cameras not long after it happened with the fire was already blazing through response time was very quick from the police and the fire department and the entire neighborhood honestly, in we got to put the fire out before it made it inside. And we sustained significant damage to the front of the house had to lose the original doors on that old house in probably have to replace the whole front deck area. We have reopened for business we have kind of an ad hoc front entrance in there now. Looks pretty good as far as ad hoc temporary entrances go match the paint to you know, the paint around it and things like that. Turns out there was water damage from the fire hoses, and I still don't really know what that all amounts to. But that's that's all being worked out. But it's it's it's jarring. You know, we get threats all the time. But it's still jarring when somebody comes up with that kind of Audacity. And this guy, he lit the place on fire and then he kind of did a loop around the block to come back and watch the Blaze from across the street. A lot of people are surprised about that arsonists typically do want to watch the blaze if they're really bitten by the pyromania bug, you know, it's not uncommon that they come to the scene and start watching it. But this dipshit didn't even bother to take off the baseball cap or, you know, put a sweater on over the t shirt or anything. And by the time he had moved to the neighborhood, we had already given still images to the police from the security camera. And they arrested him immediately. He referred to he referred to it himself as a hate crime and expressed his disregard for any human life that might be inside the building, saying that he didn't quite care whether they were injured or killed because he believed that they were Satan worshippers and worthy of being killed. As far as we can tell, he wasn't attached to any larger organization or to a church that was compelling him to do any of these things. He had a lot of different priors, about half a dozen, and some of those including little arson attacks. So there's clearly a deranged guy doesn't seem to be part of a larger movement. But of course, there's a lot of hysteria now and polarization and extreme rhetoric floating around so still puts us in a very insecure environment overall.

Stephen Bradford Long 08:10
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it's, it's scary during our conversation on your Patreon about it. I was I was so furious about it, because the Salem headquarters, it is just a building, but it's also kind of a significant religious space for our community. You know, it's, it's, for lack of a better term sacred in that way, and it you know, it there, there's the gorgeous art there. There's the Baphomet statue there, there are people who work there. So you know, it's it's an important space. And there is just this, this kind of deep feeling of rage at a significant religious space being violated in that way. And I was super mad about that, because I feel like it's pretty core to TSGs tenets to never infringe upon the rights and space of others. But we live in a culture where others could do that to us. And so I came into that conversation really mad. And you kind of talked me down from that you you kind of talked me down from that rage, because I went into that conversation, basically saying and I said this at the beginning of that conversation, you know, this is about pluralists against theocrats. And you you said no, this is more complicated. It. This guy is not representative of Christians. This guy is, you know, we don't really know much about him. tells it to talk some more about out there are your thoughts about what is a, what is what is a healthy way to respond to this. And I'm not saying that anger isn't healthy. I mean, anger is completely understandable and reasonable and human and acceptable. And there's it's a feeling there's nothing wrong with it. It's it's a feeling feelings are neutral. But in terms of how, how we collectively respond to something like this, what are your thoughts on on how to respond well, and healthily, especially in a culture that's already so polarized?

Doug Misicko 10:29
Yeah, I think the knee jerk reaction is to try to categorize this guy in especially, you know, when he comes up wearing a god t shirt, it doesn't seem irrational to say that this is what you get from extreme Christians or whatever. But when you look at the background and see that this guy had priors, including, you know, throwing a burning flag on a cop car, and, you know, at that point, when he did that, like two years ago, you could see commentary from people saying, Yeah, fuck the police or whatever. And in I don't in obviously, this guy isn't the the liberal hero that those crowd that that crowd took him for either, you know, so I don't think we should give him the credit of putting deep thought into the justifications he's using to enact whatever anti social behavior he's exhibiting. Right? I mean, there's deeper problems there. And a lot of people use whatever they can to justify these types of things that they want to do. And and I think it's, it's, it's always a mistake to give them the credit of a larger philosophical position that they might not be representative of it all. I think sometimes when we see warring factions out on the streets to, like, when you see poor Portland protests, you know, and you sometimes see an Tifa versus proud boy, militant Nazis or whatever I'm not, I'm not entirely convinced that on either end there, you would have people easily changing sides of the divide, just to be somewhere where they can punch somebody and break windows and cause havoc, you know, and I think it's just a real mistake to give them the protection of a higher moral standing that they probably just don't have, you know, and, and we shouldn't be, I just don't feel like whichever side of the divide we're on, we should be that accommodating to, to our vandals and our criminals and other people who are, you know, maybe just happy to cause destruction and harm and other people's lives.

Stephen Bradford Long 12:43
Right. And if there is an ideology there, maybe it's just a cover for kind of a deeper antisocial impulse or what have you,

Doug Misicko 12:51
right. I mean, I'm not going to pretend we're never going to see that on the satanists side, either. You know, I see dumb comments on social media from people saying, like, well, well, you got to burn down a church and things like that. And it's like, no, that's, it's not the way absolutely not

Stephen Bradford Long 13:08
the way. Well, you know, I was just thinking about this listening to you talk how I have to take annoyingly it's always so annoying to take the higher road, but you know, I don't like it when some lunatic some some lunatic who calls himself a Satanist is suddenly held up as representative of Satanists. Like, that happens. That happens all the time. That happens all the time. I mean, here in North Carolina, there was this guy named kazoo who he was out in Winston Salem, I think, in the Winston Salem area, and he, I mean, he was awful. He was he was absolutely fucking monstrous and did horrible, horrible things, and he called himself a Satanist. And, and every every religion has people like that every religion will will have dangerous, deranged people like that, and I don't like it when Richard fucking Ramirez the Night Stalker is held up as a representative of Satanists, because he called himself as a Satanist or someone like kazoo. And that therefore means that when this happens, when a when someone comes wearing a god t shirt and tries to commit an act of arson, I need to equally I need to I need to adhere to that same principle and, and practice some charity and say maybe maybe this guy has other stuff going on. I don't know what his ideology is just because he's wearing a god t shirt. I don't know where he's coming from. I don't know a thing about him.

Doug Misicko 14:46
Right and his ideology might change day by day, depending on what he feels gives him that kind of carte blanche to act in such a thoughtless way to act upon his Pyro maniacal impulses or whatever are, you know, I was just really touched that the Salem community came together really quickly in our defense and unambiguously, you know, stood by our side and the mayor released a statement, you know, almost immediately condemning the attack. And, you know, that was really gratifying in the real world was very, was very nice about the whole thing. It's, you got to give it a few days and be on social media before you see people denigrating us for, for crying about it. As I was seeing, you know, we haven't really said anything except, you know, to respond to press outreach, and things like that. But all of a sudden, a narrative cohered that showed, once again, how, how some people will just never take us seriously as a religious minority, and just don't really understand what it means to be under threat of death and have people coming to burn your house down to the point where they still think we're getting a laugh out of all of this.

Stephen Bradford Long 16:01
Yeah, no, I mean, the the idea that there's anything ironic about my Satanism, I mean, it's, I mean, I've ranted about that for years now. So I won't rant about it. Now talk some more about the response that you got from the Salem community? Did other religions in Salem react and how did they react? Were like did any Christians and whatnot, how did they react?

Doug Misicko 16:26
I'm like Boston, where if we have an event, you know, Catholics will come out in, in full regalia to protest, you know, Salem Witch is not terribly far off, has a larger Unitarian population, and they never really have a beef with us. I don't know if they reached out. But to be honest, there was a lot of outreach. So I'm sure I missed, you know, certain things. So I don't want to say that other religious groups did not. But you know, no, nobody, nobody in Salem said a bad word. And neighbors came out to express their support, even city council members expressed their support. And, you know, the police are, are actually rather protective of us at this point. You know, we reported to them that I have $100,000 bounty on me, from that group of sovereign citizens, and they've been very vigilant around our property. And, you know, it's just, it's nice when you get that kind of serious response. And like I said, you know, it was within minutes, so that the there was full mobilization to the headquarters after this disaster will drop the match.

Stephen Bradford Long 17:38
How did you find out like, Did you did you, I think you said, during our Patreon conversation, that you just looked at the camera, there's just engulfed in flames.

Doug Misicko 17:48
Well, on my phone, I get alerts, and like, the cameras will detect, like, if a person comes on the property, it distinguishes the shapes, you know, and I'll even tell you that there's a person or activity, it's its activity, it's usually, you know, maybe an animal runs by or light goes on, or something that triggers it. But, you know, the, the, the alert went off on my phone, and there was like, 32nd, to a minute delay to the point where I actually opened it, and then, you know, the camera was fully engulfed in flames at that point. So,

Stephen Bradford Long 18:22
yeah, yeah, that that would that would be super scary. I don't know what I would do in that situation. I mean, other than called the cops, which I guess, is what you did.

Doug Misicko 18:33
And they had already been called, you know, the delay was, was very minimal. And still, at the other end of 911, they were saying we've already got response team on the way.

Stephen Bradford Long 18:45
Yeah, you know, it sounds like the response that that you're practicing to this is a bit of a bit of stoicism and being choosing to not jump to simple narratives, even even in the face of a potentially really dangerous situation. And to not jump to to polarization. And I think that some some people who are new to my podcast and to TST might find that surprising, because I think a lot of people on the outside look at TST as a as a very extreme group that is just pushing and trolling and so on and so forth. And I don't think that's correct. And it sounds like what you are advocating is a more compassionate response to the situation.

Doug Misicko 19:45
To be fair, I was on a different podcast recently that I don't think aired and I expressed my desire to to be Alex Jones till he shuts himself so hey, you know, I have to speak to so I'm

Stephen Bradford Long 20:00
where I am right there with you. I mean, especially right now in in this I especially right now in this climate where it feels like just everything is falling apart, it feels like so much is up in the air and we can move on from the the arson attack, but it Do you know of the cost for repairs? Do you know like how much damage was actually done?

Doug Misicko 20:24
No, I actually need to check in on that and see what insurance is covering and what, you know, a lot of people reached out offering support, and it was hard to tell them what to do, because I had no idea how these things resolve themselves. And we did have an insurance assessor come out. And last I knew, you know, of course, you know, there was the issue of the water damage and things like that. But I think it's I think it's resolved that I'll let you know if if there's more to be developed there, whatever. But I still don't think we've we've talked to contractors about replacing the front wooden deck area, which it's my understanding that we'll have to replace the whole thing because the support beams under it run parallel to the House and across the length of the entire thing. And they were significantly eaten through by the fire and in perhaps damaged by the water or whatever. But we haven't really gotten to that point yet. But we're it's nice that we're open for business, you know, Salem's, rather a tourist town, especially October is the peak season but and when it's not summertime, when it's not the warmer weather, which is a limited period of time. And in Massachusetts, it's it's dead, you know, so to be shut down, you know, if we were shut down through the rest of the summer, that would be catastrophic, but that's not the case.

Stephen Bradford Long 21:56
Good, good. I'm glad to hear that. And I'm just so glad that no one was hurt. And that response came as soon as they did. So about a week after the arson attack, Roe v. Wade was struck down. Right, a week or two after I don't remember if it was a week or two after it was something like you said, Time Time is warping, right. I can't keep track of when anything happened. And you know, I I'm cautious to talk about this because we're we're to says dudes, we don't have uteruses, we don't have any childbearing potential unless something truly, you know, unexpected and miraculous happens.

Doug Misicko 22:42
And I'm what book that I'm really sick of people bitching about that, it's like, you don't understand the dire situation you're in, if you're going to shit on allies like that. And I'm fucking sick of that. At this point. I'm sick of people saying, You're the wrong person to jump in on defensiveness. And we're hearing a lot of that now. And it just really does say to me that there are a lot of people who don't understand clearly the situation we're in. And I felt that at the point where we started getting a lot of criticism for having a First Amendment lawyer who had also who had also represented all right clients and people saying that this was somehow a reflection of us, and somehow this lawyers, clients were, you know, indicative of the nature of TST in some way, rather than indicative of what the job entails when you're a lawyer. And sometimes if you're a criminal lawyer, you defend criminals. And if you're a first amendment lawyer, you know, you are also going to defend, you know, odious speech, and it's about due process. It's about seeing what precedent is set and knowing exactly where the boundaries are. You know, it's these are basic civics lessons that that seemed to have eluded a lot of people. But when people were complaining that we accepted pro bono support from a First Amendment lawyer who had defended outright clients, it just said to me, that they do not take seriously the position that we're in, they do not take us seriously as a minority religious group, and they do not take seriously the diminishment of their own rights, which they can see being taken away in the fact that we're not taken seriously in the courts so that we're treated differently than the majority religion or Christian nationalist claims. If you're starving and somebody offers you food, you don't ask them how they voted before you accept it. And I feel like we were in that situation of the starving client in a pro bono lawyer came forward in I did not ask him how he voted. It was completely new to me when people reached out and said that they felt that it was a bad look or they were bad. optics to that or whatever, but it just when people still go on with these types of things, even seeing Roe versus Wade overturned, it shows me that they just do not appreciate the dire situation we're in and that we are in the midst of a Christian nationalist coup in we have to fight back by any fucking means necessary. And we don't have time to submit, you know, functionaries, which is what a lawyer is to these kinds of purity tests. You know? Like, I don't know, if I would trust a First Amendment lawyer who said they had standards that demanded that, you know, the clients they take also reflect their values in all ways. Like, I think that is that is absolutely the position of the entitled and the, and the comfortable and coddled, they do not. They do not understand this as a war. This is a real battle, you know, and, you know, we're losing, and we're losing, because I think a lot of people have become very comfortable in the position that they can take online, you know, for the most part, this whole idea of of canceling people and everything else, the preponderance of that, you know, leans heavily towards public shaming coming from Left, left wingers, you know, people on more progressive side of politics, and I think their their majority appeal has been mistaken for political capital, when it's just not there. And they don't really understand why somebody isn't coming to their defense when they just go out on the street and wave signs that say, somebody needs to take care of this for us. Whereas the Christian nationalists, they are a minority, you know, the majority of people within the United States agree that abortion should be legal. The majority of people agree that gay marriage is the law, and it should be. And yet, we have Clarence Thomas, looking to overturn that as well, now that we have this radicalized Christian nationalist Supreme Court in place, they are the minority, but they actually work at this, you know, they get up early, they vote, they go to the city council meetings, they run Bill Mills, they put together model legislation, and all we fucking do is cry online. And we don't only cry online against the enemy. When we see that that has no effect on the enemy, we begin to turn on each other and cannibalize one another and kill ourselves and shoot ourselves in the foot and subject everybody to purity tests. And in that way, we fucking lose again and again, and we let this minority totalitarian uprising, get away with what it does when we do that.

Stephen Bradford Long 27:50
I'm so glad that you said all that and I completely agree. And I'm so I'm glad that you expressed your your frustration there. I don't know if you saw this article. If not, I'll send it to you. I've been talking about it for like the past three episodes straight, but it's called the elephant in the zoom. And it's from the intercept by Ryan Grim. And basically, what he's what he points out, is how, at this crucial point in history, this really, really important, crucial moment in history where every month counts Every Day Counts. The nonprofit progressive nonprofit space has been roiled in progressive purity spiral meltdowns to such a degree that they have been demobilized, that that these, you know, big, important nonprofits that that do really important work, they are just completely demobilized at a point when the world needs them the most. And like an example is the Sierra Club, which is one of the like flagship. And I've this is all repeated from my last episode that I just did with Jonathan Roush, about the constitution of knowledge. But, you know, flagship premier nonprofits like the Sierra Club, which has been at the forefront of climate action and does really important on the ground stuff day, we're just put out of commission because they were so busy managing internal progressive meltdowns over things like identity and purity, and who gets to say, what, and who gets to talk about what and so

Doug Misicko 29:49
I know people people talk to us about optics on these things all the time, but I feel like all we can do is press forward and hold to our principles. You know, it's it's painful when you don't yield to ridiculous demands about whatever, whatever sounds good in the moment, but they're usually just power plays. But it has been gratifying to me to see that the Satanic Temple is not unique in that regard. I wasn't really aware of these things at the time were Jack's, suddenly, you know, if people saw the hail satan film, they see that checks, Blackmore was kicked out of TST earlier on, for holding an event without telling us inviting the documentary crew that was doing a documentary about the Satanic Temple without telling us and then doing an event where she claimed that we, you know, some, some undisclosed, we, according to her, not the Satanic Temple, we're going to kidnap politicians and kill the president. And we didn't need that on us, you know, we don't need somebody speaking for us in that regard and saying that kind of thing. So she had to go, and we let her leave, you know, without making any public pronouncements that we had gotten rid of her. So she took that opportunity a couple months later to announce that she had left due to philosophical differences. And she claimed that those philosophical differences were us not respecting diversity and other such things that she had never brought up to us before and completely made up. And it was just meant to appeal, you know, it was sounded a lot better than I was kicked out for being irresponsible. And, you know, she turned it into I took the higher moral ground. But we're so polarized at this point, where people are afraid to even point out a lie like that, when the Hail Satan came out, it showed what actually happened, that she was thrown out, and she was thrown out for her own irresponsibility. And what's interesting is, you know, around her disclosure that she left, you know, sprung up this conspiracy theory of the Satanic Temple, actually being crypto fascist and things like that. And none of the people who latched on to that watched the documentary From what I saw, and said, Oh, it turns out, she lied, you know, they stick to the narrative one way or the other. And that's what happens when you become part of this polarized environment, it becomes even the lies that something that substantiate the right narrative, are not allowed to be called out as allies. And that's when you're in a really dangerous situation, you see people taking full advantage of that they take full advantage of that polarization being able to take any petty complaint they have, and conflating it into something that never was to begin with, making up claims that people aren't allowed to question, you know, because, because then you're just in denial over the, over the systemic oppression, that's at play here, whatever. To the point, like I said, like, you have to accept as valid a lie one way or the other. And, you know, again, the Satanic Temple is not at all unique to this. I've spoken to other heads of nonprofits and Oregon in different organizations. And a lot of them are not willing to go on the record. They're there. They're still terrified of the backlash, but we're talking, you know, organizations, you'd recognize the names of you know, that I've spoken to people who've left in in disappointment and despair, because the exact same things happen with them, somebody, some narcissist comes in, for a power play. And they know they don't have to do necessarily any work or be productive in any way have any vision, other than to elevate themselves. And they don't even have to belong to a marginalized identity group, you know, so long as they claim they're speaking for them, which they often do, you know, the wearer,

Stephen Bradford Long 34:03
beware the person who who speaks on behalf of entire fucking people groups, nothing annoys me more. Speaking as a gay person, nothing annoys me more than every pride month now, every year this happens, where organizations and corporations and content creators and celebrities and all of these different people will be like the LGBTQ community is x or believes X or needs x and I fucking hate that

Doug Misicko 34:44
entity where no individual has agency

Stephen Bradford Long 34:47
and we are we hardly agree with each other whenever I hear the term gay community I'm like, what gay community there are gay communities. But there is no single gives me an

Doug Misicko 34:58
excuse to me at first because When we first started, one of the first things we we got press about was the pink mass. And that was in defense of gay rights. And this was before gay marriage was affirmed by the Supreme Court. And we get those outreach, that outreach from people who said, you know, as a gay person, I really resent you trying to speak for me and I'm in my, my position was what we're not we're speaking for Satanists. Exactly. It's like, in I've lost my tolerance for it. I felt like I handled these things more delicately before, but we're not we're past that point now. So when people will say to me that I can't understand what it means because I'm a white heterosexual man. And I can't understand what it means to be part of a marginalized community. At this point, I have to say, Who the fuck do you think you're talking to? How many people do you know that get the de Lucia death threats that I get? How many people do you know that have $100,000 bounty on their fucking head? Because of his religious identity? How many people do you know have people coming to his fucking house, trying to light it on fire and kill him? You know, people talk about killing me all the fucking time for my religious identity. Who are you to tell me that I don't know what it's like to be fucking marginalized. And you can make the argument about historical marginalization. But I don't really think it's appropriate to play these games of who's more or less marginalized, there's just no place for it, we should be trying to build a world in which nobody has to deal with these types of things. You know, you can say I had a choice to identify as a Satanist. But it's like, you want to live in that world to where I'm coerced to make a choice. To not identify the way I feel. What kind of downward spiral is that? At, I feel with every essence of my being that I'm a Satanist. And it's essential that I identify as such, and for people to be that blase about it, and give me that treatment where it's like, well, you chose this life, I just have to say, Fuck you.

Stephen Bradford Long 37:08
Also what you know what you were just saying, They're one of the things that does worry me about a lot of these about a lot of these progressive meltdowns, it really devalues the power of empathy, and human connection, human imagination. human progress is based on this superpower that we have all literature, all film, all poetry, all art, is based on this superpower that we have to be able to understand, even if we haven't experienced it, even if we have never, even if we have never walked in another person's shoes, even if we have never had a uterus even if we've never been trans even if we've never been white or black or gay or straight or what have you. We we have as the human species, this superpower called empathy. Because we have these mirror neurons, it's it's how nature built us. I actually

Doug Misicko 38:15
call it mind reading what's in a psychic sense, but in being able to divine what other people are thinking based upon their emotional output or physiological responses, that type of thing.

Stephen Bradford Long 38:28
And, and I mean, we, we can understand, we maybe not perfectly maybe not clearly, but we can understand otherwise, there'd be no use and reading about the Holocaust. Otherwise, there would be no use in reading about the horrors of slavery studying the horrors of slavery, we there would there would be no purpose to literature if we didn't have that capacity for empathy. And I do sometimes worry. That what that when, when people say you don't share this specific identity marker, therefore, you can't understand i i, there's

Doug Misicko 39:09
an irony in that because it assumes they understand what you have gone through and what you I mean, that's what I feel like I deal with when people say well, you don't know what it's like to be part of marginalized community and I think what really do you know what it means to be a Satanist? Especially one in my position, right? And if I can't know what it's like to be in anybody else's shoes, what makes you think you know exactly what my day to day is like, dealing with this shit? I mean, how much do you think you can handle like any listener? Like how do you think you would bear the weight of this kind of I mean, I feel like I'm I'm living the life of somebody in in witness relocation program. You know, I hold everything very close to my chest and people trying to Doc's, every every fun fact they can dig up about me 100% of the time. and fully knowing that people are very invested in killing me as well, you know, and it's certainly not just me by any stretch of the imagination, you know, we had, our Idaho congregation recently tried to get involved with Idaho pride. And they eventually pulled out due to all the threats against them, a local conservative rag, trying to Doc's, one of the one of the congregation heads to make things more dangerous. And eventually, at that same event, the after TST had pulled out but TST probably probably inspired this group to show up this group, Patriot front came armed and got nabbed and arrested before they could cause violence, but apparently, their, their plan was to, was to disrupt the event in in some violent fashion. And given all the publicity surrounding the prospective presence of the Satanic Temple, it seemed like the focus was was largely on that. So you know, it's something a lot of the active membership deal with, you know, and in some ways, I have it better because I'm in Massachusetts, because I'm in a liberal place, because I'm considered a good neighbor. And in Salem, that in business owner that that people, people respect over here, you know, but we have congregations and rural Red State areas where people are highly offended by their presence and will do anything to keep them from engaging in any type of activities, public or private, so long as it's happening anywhere in their proximity, and that hangs over everybody's head, we are a marginalized, minority religious identity. And it would be hard to argue anything different. I don't know, how we don't fit that definition.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:01
No, absolutely. And I just want to always run in the, in the direction of empathy. So whenever anyone says you can't understand, because x because I'm white, because I'm male, because I'm whatever

Doug Misicko 42:18
that you can, you can try. Exactly exact. Nobody should should on you for trying exactly back to your original point, when you were saying, you know, a couple of non uterus, people talking about pregnancy. It's like, I'm not really feeling that anymore. I used to apologize for that. I used to apologize for that when I would debate politicians on abortion rights and things like that. I would say like I happened to be the guy here you know, that said, Sure, that's taking on this this topic. But now I just find it I just honestly I just find it so inappropriate. Now I find it to be it's it's to me, it just It honestly feels complacent, entitled to feel like you can pick and choose your allies to that degree of filtering, you know that you want the perfect picture of whatever, you know, anytime something is addressed, you know, we need all hands on deck at this point. And I'm one of those people. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 43:22
me too. And, you know, I'm so glad that you interjected when you did. And the sentence that I was going to finish is the sentence that I was going to finish there was you know, even though we don't have uteruses, we aren't of childbearing potential. And I hesitate to talk about it because of that. However, we this is this is bigger, and this affects everyone. The decline of Roe v Wade the reversal the death of Roe v Wade affects every single person regardless of their identity Not least because it takes two to tango Not least because men males are involved in the act of procreation you know, that there is a connection there but also because this affects privacy this affects is sexual freedom. This this, this affects autonomy, this could affect gay marriage, right? This is, this is big, there's never nothing is ever an island. You know, to quote John Donne, no man is an island and tire of himself every scene, this affects all of us. And I do want to I, you know, I'm the kind of, you know, hand wringing milk toast annoying progressive, who does care about things like you know, the language I use and people having adequate voice, you know, you know, not not speaking on behalf of others and all that kind of stuff. You know, I like I don't want to dominate a space that you that where where it is women who are primarily affected. And I don't want to, you know, be the mansplaining male like that, that matters. That's important. It but it, it does affect all of us and you brought up gay marriage in your thing. So I'm gay. And I guess one of the questions that I wanted to I don't know first respond to that if you have any thoughts about that before I go on to gay marriage,

Doug Misicko 45:25
I was just thinking you know that tired old? Whatever you would call it that that little digression where are they? They're they like to say, you know, first they came for the gays in

Stephen Bradford Long 45:37
Oh, first it wasn't a yes or no first thing.

Doug Misicko 45:42
And then they came for the Jews and I said nothing because I'm not Jewish. And then by the time they came for me, there was nobody, nobody to defend me or whatever. I think that should be altered slightly to say like, first they came from the gays but I'm not gay. So I couldn't say anything on there. You know, yes. You know, Roe v. Wade, and I don't have a uterus, so I couldn't say anything about that. And then, you know, by the time they came for me, what could I fucking say?

Stephen Bradford Long 46:09
Right? Well, and here's the thing about that I'm, I am, to my core, and enlightenment, liberal. And I don't mean liberal in the political sense. I mean, liberal in the annoying philosophical, classical sense, in that, I believe that the two most fundamental identities, the two most important identities, is the individual, and our universal shared humanity. Those are the two most fundamental and important identities. And then there's that whole spectrum in the middle of nationality, religion, male, female, trans, gay, straight, person of color, add all of that stuff, all of that, all of this stuff in the middle. But at the end of the day, our rights and our ability to cohere as a community and as a society, and as a culture and as a civilization rely on acknowledging those two polarities, as the most fundamental and most important features of what it means to be human. We are an individual, first and foremost, who are afforded individual rights. And we are, we have a shared human experience, which means that no matter how we look, or how we talk, or whatever, there's something fundamentally same, there's something fundamentally similar that allows for empathy across the board. Right. And one thing that does worry me about the emphasis on those interstitial identities, is what you just talked about is what you just said, is it it silences us in a way that that keeps people from from being able to vouch for one another. And yes, you know, people always need to be careful about how they say things and people need to be careful to not speak over others. All of that still holds. But I really like how you reframed that, you know, they came for Roe v Wade, but I didn't say anything because I didn't have a uterus. i They came for the gays but I didn't say anything because I wasn't gay. I fucking love

Doug Misicko 48:27
that it doesn't stop there. And I think I'm also fed up with people still acting like the things that we have done, have been pranks, like we tolerated the narrative for a long time that it all started as a prank and then stuff got serious and they act like still to this day, the Baphomet monument campaign was some kind of prank. And it's not at this point, you should see these are all intertwined. You know, we have a lot of people who still hold up. And God We Trust being on the currency as giving exclusive license to the Christian viewpoint when it comes to legislating people's morals, lifestyle, censoring material or whatever else. And you know, that a 10 commandments monument standing exclusively unopposed without any pluralistic exercise of equal access, is also going to be utilized as evidence that we are a Christian nation. This is our heritage and history. And I think that's what they were really trying to express with those 10 commandments bills, is that justification that this is our heritage in history, and this is who we are. And that emboldened them further to make their arguments to overturn Roe v. Wade, which they have done now. Clarence Thomas was very clear in his concurrence in Dobbs, overturning Roe v. Wade, that he wants to revisit questions of gay marriage and gender identity and other types of things that the theocrats see is rolling back from Some a deal of time where things were so much better somehow, you know, back to the authoritarian rule of. Well, I mean, it's not even going back. You know, they're they're talking about a fictitious past that that never was before but trying to roll us back to a new dark age. And it's not, it's not going to stop. And with inflation, we really stand a solid chance of having a Republican sweep and the next rounds of election, and then you're going to see the theocratic coup made manifest very real. You're going to see, I think, I think we're potentially right now within four to five years of anti blasphemy laws that are going to be framed as, you know, anti anti religious hate speech laws. And, you know, there's a population on the left that is trying desperately to enable that is well, I was very confused during the Trump administration, when we saw so much anti free speech rhetoric from the left, because it showed to me a kind of delusional sense of process. And who were you appealing to at that point? You know, the Trump administration was in office, who do you want regulating speech right now? How do you think that's going to turn out there, this just seems to be just very little sense of how these things can turn around and bite you in the ass. And I am not going to be happy to say I told you so when we're dealing with those anti blasphemy laws, I'm not going to like it one bit.

Stephen Bradford Long 51:39
You know, I was just talking about this with Jonathan Roush on last week's show. He's this legendary gay activist and journalist and author of the constitution of knowledge, honestly, it's one of it hasn't come out yet as of this recording, but it will by the time this this recording drops. And it's one of my, I think, favorite interviews that I've ever done in all the five years of this show. But he said in that conversation, that the thing that breaks his heart the most is the minority left turn against the principle of free speech. Because without free speech, the left is nothing and minorities are nothing, we have nothing. And I have a very vested interest as a gay satanist to protect free speech, and it is like you I mean, I was just absolutely fucking, you know, mind blown, you know, just just blown away by this skepticism of free speech as somehow right wing and authoritarian and capitalist and that it only enables the powerful and so on and so forth.

Doug Misicko 52:57
Frederick Douglass explicitly disagreed with that position. Yeah, so you're saying I feel like he had a bit worse than, than any of us. And so

Stephen Bradford Long 53:05
did John Lewis and the early civil rights movement, like those

Doug Misicko 53:09
are king Dr. Martin Luther King was was also very explicitly a free speech advocate. So it was Gandhi. Like, I think it shows a complete ignorance of history to act like I mean, up into, you know, the 1960s the rights revolution, the free speech movement in Berkeley was very much a hippie left wing thing you know, this development of free speech is being seen as a right wing value is not only entirely incorrect because we see the hypocrisy on the right whenever they see material they don't like it, but it's it's also yes is heartbreaking to see the left kind of fall for it. And I honestly think it's going to bite them in the ass and we're going to see a manifestation of anti blasphemy laws if the Republican sweep again, you know, Trump's numbers are are going down, but DeSantis is are going up and you know, he might, you might be smarter than Trump, which is terrible, but he's He's very much a theocratic and I could see things going really sour, really fast. And we need to we need to calibrate and figure out what what our values are.

Stephen Bradford Long 54:21
Well, and you know, that's, that's what I've always been so afraid of the Most Merciful thing about Trump was that he was so fucking stupid. Right? Right. The The best thing about Trump is that he he, he was basically a toddler where you know, toddlers are grandiose, despotic sociopaths, but they're so fucking stupid and tiny that they can't actually do any damage. So, so Trump was like a toddler who was I actually, I don't actually I think that isn't giving him enough credit. I think he's, he is smarter than I'm painting here. But he wasn't smart enough and he wasn't An effective at at actually succeeding in, in creating a theocratic rule. Well, no, that's not true either because he put in place the Supreme Court. But all that said, the really scary thing about Trump is that he laid the groundwork for someone smarter than him to come along. He, he, it's like he has culturally laid the groundwork for for a theocratic, who has the brains to actually get something done?

Doug Misicko 55:29
Yeah, that's what I've been saying. I keep thinking that as this plays out, everybody thinks we've seen the worst of it. And I still have that fear that people don't understand that Dobbs is not the end, it's just the beginning of things, potentially a whole lot worse. And like I said, you know, inflation being what it is traditionally, does not favor an incumbent at all. And if the Democrats are stupid enough to run Biden, again, I think it's all that much worse, because I think really, the only way the Democrats can do well, in this kind of environment of inflation, in with an aged out president, like the one we have, is to run somebody else, you know, in what would be Biden second term, but the Democrat Party is really pretty shitty overall, I think. I mean, in a rational world, I think they would be our worst option. Right. But they're orders of magnitude better than the Republican Party. I don't, I don't buy that bullshit for a minute that, you know, they're on equal, equal standing at all, you know, we're we're fighting for our lives against the Republicans, you know, we're we're fighting for some kind of some kind of action and competence from the, from the Democrats, you know, which is, which is far better than dealing with the insults to our democracy that we've had from the Republican Party. But I would very much like to see, you know, a third party or fourth party, that complete dissolution of the Republican Party, but I think the two party system has been entirely debunked in the circumstances, when you have all the deliberation falling along party lines, you know, I think the introduction of more parties is absolutely necessary to completely necessitate, negotiation. And in crosstalk, you know, in with the two party system as it is now, we're not, we're not going to see that I don't think ever again.

Stephen Bradford Long 57:29
Yeah, everyone go read the Constitution of knowledge, where Jonathan Roush talks about systems of compromise that enable genuine progressive forward movement, and that don't just enable compromise, but require hard disagreement. And somehow finding in the middle, meeting in the middle and creating a system that enables that that's what we need is a system that actually enables, you know, that kind of forward movement and, and away from theocracy, I'm going to be grifting for Jonathan Roush his book, by the way, for the rest of time on this podcast. So all of you can just get used to it. It's so you might as well just get it over with and go ahead and read it. I wanted to bring up gay marriage. I don't know enough about law. I meant to ask, you know, I because of tst. I have, you know, lawyer friends,

Doug Misicko 58:27
is Stephen. Yes, yes. 1000 times. Yes.

Stephen Bradford Long 58:30
How, how concerned should we be about the decline of gay marriage, or the reversal of gay marriage? How? Because they're there again, they're already people saying no, we shouldn't be worried. This is fine. And I'm looking, I'm looking at like, the thing that Clarence Thomas wrote the, the opinion that he wrote, and I'm like, I'm not understanding why we shouldn't be concerned.

Doug Misicko 58:53
I don't understand why somebody wouldn't be concerned either. I am very concerned and that they are emboldened and you know, Clarence Thomas knew that there was going to be outrage over over Dobbs over the overturn of Roe v. Wade, and took that as an opportunity to signal what's coming next and there's absolutely no reason to not take him seriously on that. If somebody thinks that after overturning Roe v Wade, that route questioning or overturning the right to gay marriage is still somehow off the table. You're insane. You're delusional you you're not accepting the world that we're in right now. You're not You're you're blind to what's happening around you. So what's the point? I feel like I'm in this Twilight Zone world where you know, I'm surrounded by people who just don't get it just don't get that this is happening. And I feel like we saw it coming a long ways away. I think other people feel like we just happen to be here when shit got serious and we've laughed our way to this point the whole time. But I feel like we saw it 10 years ago, when we started doing what we were doing. And it was that serious and vital for us back then, we saw the writing on the wall. And now this is where it's turned out. And I used to I used to talk about this, you know, earlier on with the Satanic Temple, and people kind of brushed it off is kind of a bit a bit hysterical and a bit radical, you know, and now here we are,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:00:25
ya know, I've been talking about it forever on the podcast, as well. And yeah, so what do we do? What's the what's the path forward? Because we're in this for the long haul? So what are strategies moving forward to as individuals and collectively?

Doug Misicko 1:00:45
Well, we have to stop with that bullshit, where, you know, we keep saying, you can't fix the system from within the system, or you can't change the system from within the system. And, you know, I keep telling people at this point, like, that's what we just fucking saw. We saw Yes, theocratic coup from the wing, within within the system and completely undermine entrenched constitutional democratic norms to their liking. And we need to play the long game like they do. You know, if you're not putting, if you're not mobilizing the armed insurrection against the right right now, and you're just hashtagging it or you're going out and waving a sign, you're essentially not doing anything, you're using the politics of shame against the shameless, you know, and that's what causes, I think, the left to turn against itself, they see that the strongest weapon they have that type of shame doesn't actually work against their opposition, you know, so they have to, they have to attack people who, who are ashamed by by being being, you know, labeled in some some way that calls them all right, or whatever else. But we really need to start focusing on on what the opposition is actually doing, rather than niggling about, you know, what we're doing with each other, or, you know, whether somebody made a made a careless Twitter post, you know, 10 years ago or something like that. There just isn't the time for that right now, there just isn't the room for that kind of thing right now, you know, there just is no place for those purity politics. And we need to be willing to give people the room to change their point of view to come around to our way of thinking, get on the right side and work with us. You know, it doesn't matter if they tick all the boxes of fulfilling all the requirements for, you know, being in some part of some perfect picture of, you know, a variety of marginalized identities or whatever. We need everybody we can get in, we need to start doing those tedious things like going to the city council meetings, going to the school board meetings, and opposing those theocrats, these theocrats had been doing that at the local level for generations. Now, you know, well, more and more people on the left, if just disregarded these kinds of politics and felt comfortable in the majority position they're in. And like I said earlier, you know, we've seen that being in the majority doesn't really help us anymore. You know, they've been installing people in politics, they've been putting judges in place. And it's going to take a long time, if we can fix this at all, you know, if we can get back to a point where there's, like deliberation and democracy is, is respected enough that we can count on somebody within the system to use the system to help save the system, you know, we need to be there to do that. And I think a democratic system is still the best system to do that. It's like science, you know, it's supposed to be a self correcting system, it's supposed to be open to deliberation, it's supposed to be amenable to conflict, so that we can resolve those conflicts. And it might not be a perfect system, but it seems to work a whole lot better than any of the alternatives that have been presented so far. And we need to fight to defend that we need to fight to defend that now, you know, and it needs to start happening immediately. And people really need to get engaged. And people just really don't seem to have tolerance for the long game like that. It but if they don't, we're going to lose and we're going to keep losing and it's going to get a whole lot worse. And it's still going to get worse before it gets better. You know, but if it's ever going to get better at all, we need to take this shit seriously now. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:53
and you know, the right falls into fucking line with their goals. And so we just can't afford it. too,

Doug Misicko 1:05:00
they get up early, they vote the Christian nationalists don't care if you're Mormon, or if you're African, they're Protestant and things like they they set that shit aside for now. And they're making the most horrific gains that we could possibly imagine because of it.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:05:18
Yeah. And I think it's worth dwelling. By the way, on that point, you just made Catholics and Protestants being able to put aside their differences for political cause. These that is like a conflict. 600 years, it that goes back, literally centuries, and has been violent and bloody, and there's still a lot of animosity between Catholics and Protestants, they're able to put that shit aside. And if they're able to do it, then Fucking hell, you know, socialists and Social Democrats and liberals are able to do it. Right, I have

Doug Misicko 1:05:57
zero excuse. Things are so bad right now I have a friend who was attending a class at at Harvard, where Bernie Sanders was a guest speaker. And people were decrying him as a fascist, because he didn't support defund the police. And honestly, you're not going to get anywhere with that kind of attitude when, when you can't even even express skepticism towards a tactic as being the best way to reach a common goal. Yeah, then it then you there's there's no hope. So people really need to get get past that shit.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:06:33
I mean, it also reminds me, that reminds me when people were when Twitter just lit up with controversy because Bernie Sanders and I was a Bernie guy. I fucking love Bernie. But when the internet just lit up with controversy, because Bernie Sanders had the gall to appear on Joe Rogan's podcast. And it's like, how dare he? How dare he associate with someone like Joe Rogan? And I'm just sitting here like, do you want to win or not? If you want to win, you have to get votes, the way you get votes, is by appealing to a broad audience. No one has a broader audience on the internet in podcast land than Joe Rogan, like, get with the fucking program? Do you want to win? Or do you want to to be good? Or do you want to, to, you know, be better than Joe Rogan?

Doug Misicko 1:07:28
Or your yield, man or your primary candidate and take your ball and go home and allow it to be the theocrats? If you don't get that? You know, like, right? I mean, we're just in too desperate, as I understand the frustration of having to pick the lesser of two evils, but the lesser evil is much less of an evil. And of course, when I speak about political candidates and stuff like that, I'm not speaking on behalf of the organization, the organization, you know, as a member, you can vote however way you want, just because I don't understand how it might fit in with this, this philosophy in any way whatsoever and find it completely out of line. You know, the fact of the matter is, we are IRS recognized and I can't, as a spokesperson for the organization endorse, yeah, to actually because I've used in one way or the other. So I do need to specify in that regard, like, you know, yeah, we want to vote for it. My personal opinions on this are, are completely personal.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:08:30
Yeah, I'm glad you bring that up, because I have to specify that too, because I'm a minister. So I am not in any way telling people how to vote. I am I am. This is my individual. My individual thoughts. Did everything Lucien just said, so for? I think a lot of Satanists are feeling a bit frightened for their safety, you know, after the arson attempt, and now with this very aggressive assault on bodily autonomy. So what advice do you have for Satanists to to go about their lives and maybe a safe way so that they can feel secure?

Doug Misicko 1:09:15
Yeah, I mean, to be clear, I would advise safety and you're not going to hear me trying to downplay it. I'm not going to offer any words of comfort here, take it seriously. There are people who want to hurt us, and there are people who are going to start acting on these things. And people are feeling more and more emboldened. And, you know, the Supreme Court is doing everything it can to widen the rift between the polarized opposites on the culture war while arming everybody at the same time. And I do think things are going to get ugly, and I can't really tell people how to respond to their own personal circumstances, but I wouldn't take any risks. With that said, the more of us there are openly identifying, the better off we are in general. But if there's any fear you have, you know, you keep it out of your workplace, keep it out of your local community to the best you can use the pseudonyms I know people always shit on us and act like there's something nefarious about the use of pseudonyms, fuck them, use a pseudonym, it's very obvious why we do. You know, and if you're not me, you know, you probably do have the liberty of not engaging in real time and putting your face on news broadcasts and things like that I never really did understand are narcissists, who were very desperate to get in front of the cameras, I did, they usually don't have good outcomes in the organization anyways. But they clearly don't understand the situation as it stands. So you know, maintain your anonymity the best you can. But, you know, now's not the time to be inactive, either, you know, and there are a lot of things you can do to ensure your security of your data, and your Safety Online from being doxed and other such things. And I believe, you know, I was going to work on a project with somebody in ministry to put together some guidelines for the rest of ministry to maybe convey to other people as to how they can conduct their online affairs in such a way that reveals the least about you and makes you less trackable by the public at large. And that's important.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:11:37
Absolutely, yeah, use a VPN. Let's just start there, you know, start using a VPN. And, yeah, I think that's good advice. And I do want to have more conversations about how to be safe, and how to protect your privacy and how to protect your data and all of that. So you can look forward to more conversations like that, where I will have some experts on to talk about that. So that that will be forthcoming. This is a great conversation. Is there anything else that that you think is important to add? Before we wrap up?

Doug Misicko 1:12:12
Now, you know, I don't think much about stuff. So just kind of just kind of taking things as they come. Very good in responding to them in real time, as we as we chat here, that it's you know, you can always reach out for follow up or, or whatever. I'm always available.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:12:31
Yeah, absolutely. So, dear listeners, if you have any follow up questions. If you have any thoughts that you would like to share, please let me know in the discord server or in the comments for this post on my website, Steven Bradford long.com. And yeah, and Lucien will be back. He he's on every couple of months or so.

Doug Misicko 1:12:53
All right, and it's my pleasure to come on.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:12:56
I'm so glad. I'm so glad that you enjoy these appearances and that it isn't a chore.

Doug Misicko 1:13:01
No, I'm, I'm all for it. It's about as social as I get anymore.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:13:06
Oh, no, I'm so sorry. That Okay, well, on that very,

Doug Misicko 1:13:12
one thing I should mention is we are having an in person movie night on August 3 in Salem, so be on the lookout for tickets going on sale for that.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:13:25
Absolutely. That sounds great. All right. Well, I think that is it for this show. The music is called Wild by eleventy seven. You can find it on Apple Music Spotify, or wherever you listen to music This show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long and it is a production of rock candy recordings. As always Hail Satan. And thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STThe Constitution of Knowledge9tcry

2022-10-11T08:06:13Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STThe_Constitution_of_Knowledge9tcry
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, free speech, constitution, knowledge, culture, true, rules, book, long, left, called, liberal, views, manipulated, canceled, ideas, problem, conversation, years, form
SPEAKERS
Jonathan Rauch, Stephen Bradford Long

Stephen Bradford Long 00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast this is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long, and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com. All right. Well for this week, I have to first thank my patrons. My patrons are my personal lords and saviors, and I really could not do the show without them. So for this week, I have to thank Michael Sam al NAT toward f v. Elizabeth Washburn and Nixie Lionheart, thank you so much. You are keeping this show going. I believe in bringing long form interesting conversations with smart people to the public every week for free. But in order to do that, I need your help. This is a one man show, I do all of the editing, all of the booking, all of the recording, all of the writing, it is a part time job, in addition to all the other work I do. So every little bit helps. And you can go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long for just $1 a month. You get extra content every single week, including my house of heretics podcast with Timothy McPherson, former Salvation Army officer turned Christian heretic and we talk about whatever's going on in the world. All right. Well, with all of that out of the way, Jonathan Rauch, thank you so much for joining me. Happy to be here. All right, well, so we we've spent about the past 30 minutes battling with our digital overlords trying to get the Internet to work and software to work, the construction down the road, knocked out my internet and power literally minutes before we were supposed to record and then and it's just been a mess. So thank you so much for being so long suffering.

Jonathan Rauch 02:13
But to make it work, yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 02:15
thank you. Thank you so much for your time, I so appreciate you being here. So you wrote a book called The Constitution of knowledge. And I listened to it on Audible, after listening to some interviews that you did with people like Andrew Sullivan. And it's a it's an extraordinary book. And it was really, really illuminating. For me, it was incredibly helpful for me and understanding our current time. So before we get into the book, tell us some about who you are and what you do. Well,

Jonathan Rauch 02:51
my name is Jonathan, friends and family call me, John. So you're welcome to do that. I'm originally from Phoenix, Arizona, and went to public high school, private college at Yale. Somewhere in there, I realized I didn't have the talent to become a musician. But I wanted to communicate. And so I became a journalist. But I also did work, starting in my undergraduate years, and then continuing in history and philosophy of science. From my teenage years, I was fascinated with what's the difference between truth and falsehood? And how do we know and how do we decide that became the subject of a book I wrote in 1993, called kindly Inquisitors, the new attacks on free thought. I went away, did other things for a while worked on gay marriage. I'm gay, then realized starting five or six years ago, that we were seeing a new epistemic crisis. That's a crisis about knowing the difference between truth and falsehood and facts and fiction, getting confused, being undermined. And went back to the drawing board and produced a second book called The constitutional knowledge, a defensive truth, which I think is why I'm here today.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:06
It is, indeed. And it's a remarkable book. But before we talk about that, could you so you've, you've been studying this and you've been thinking about? How do we as the body politic, come to understand the world around us? And how do we find a consensus in a diverse pluralistic liberal society? You've been thinking about this for a long time. So before we talk about the constitution of knowledge, let's talk about kindly Inquisitors, which I feel like lays the groundwork for the constitution of knowledge. What was the problem that you were addressing and kindly Inquisitors

Jonathan Rauch 04:47
will kindly Inquisitors started work on it and I think 1989 1990 was finally published in 1993. And the big problem back then, was starting to be of what was then known as political correctness. Now this is a generation or more ago, but it's still pretty relevant and identified. Here, the first thing I did is say we have a system for making knowledge in a prosperous, peaceful, free and knowledgeable society. I called it liberal science. And I said, it's like liberal democracy or market economies, because it's rules based. It's not based on Fiat by rulers. And it's decentralized, and it's impersonal. So people are interchangeable. You know, anyone can vote, anyone can trade and anyone can bring empirical evidence. And I said, That's liberal science. And it's our greatest and most successful social system. And then I said, it's under attack. And I identified some major attacks, but but probably the two most important were, what I call egalitarian. And what I call humanitarian, and egalitarianism were people who said, basically, all ideas are created equal, and it's all a power struggle. And so the most marginalized should have special privileges in telling the rest of the world what's true, and what's false. And that's, that undermines the whole premise of liberal science, which is that people are interchangeable and who you are shouldn't matter, apart from credentials, which are earned. And the second big attack, I thought, was humanitarian attack. And this was often though not always well intentioned, but the idea was, words can hurt, bad ideas can wound they can cause harm in society, they can cause harm in individuals, so they should be punished. And I pointed out that once you start punishing words, that wound criticism is often hurtful. And that's how we get knowledge. So what these people were really out to do was substitute their own authoritarian rule for, for liberal science for knowledge as we know it. So that was kindly Inquisitors and that framework, and that structure, that architecture is now folded into the new book, constitution and knowledge. But but the new book tries to take it a long step further.

Stephen Bradford Long 07:09
Yeah. Now, so those two attacks on liberal science and liberal science being kind of our, our decentralized, collective way of coming to understand the fact of the matter, you you mentioned, humanitarian, anti egalitarian, is there an element of truth to to either of those like it? Are they getting at something that is true in your mind, or something that might be worth examining or listening to, but maybe getting at it in the wrong way, or going about it in the wrong way?

Jonathan Rauch 07:51
Well, there are versions of both of them that fit very well within liberal science and liberal science practices every day. The version of the egalitarian one is, of course, liberal sciences itself he egalitarian because the color of your skin, your gender, where you live, what language you speak, shouldn't matter if you've got the evidence, if you've got the arguments, you should be able to contribute in peer review, for example, is blind. So if the system is followed, it's very egalitarian. So that part of that critique is true. But these folks were radical egalitarians. They were trying to pursue social justice by actively privileging the points of view of people or groups that they believe were marginalized. And that turns really egalitarian ism upside down because it says, you know, what, people have a certain skin color, certain gender, sexuality, you name it, could be nationality, could be ideology, these people are privileged, and they're qualified and you're not. I think there's no merit in that. It's it's a dangerous ancient idea. It's basically a form of tribalism. My tribe can talk yours, your tribe can't and guess who's gonna decide I am. humanitarian challenge. Once again, there is a soft version of that, which fits very neatly in Liberal science. And that's the notion that if you care about the pursuit of truth, knowledge, social peace, even justice, you want to try to work non coercively to persuade people to your side. And that's how you want the system to work. You don't want it to be based on on force and violence. And to do those things, normally, for the most part, you want to try to be civil, you want to try to attack or question or challenge not the other person's right to exist or right to participate, but their ideas so things like be civil, avoid ad hominem arguments. That's very much a part of liberal science and in fact, people spend years they go to high School in college and grad school, learning the protocols of how and for example, in a scientific or scholarly article, you don't start with the phrase like you'll remember this from Saturday and I live Jane, you ignorant slut, you start from a position of respect. And all of that is baked in. And in fact, liberal science is by far the most respectful and civil forms of formal discourse that we've got. But that's very different from what I call the humanitarian challenge, which basically says, it doesn't matter, you know, if you're civil or uncivil. If I think that your views are harmful, I can censor them, or I can sign or chill you or punish you. In some way. Your view may be unsafe, for example, they may cause me trauma, or at least I can claim they cause me trauma, I can say that they're socially unjust. But with any of these claims, I should be able to shut down the dialogue, shut down the conversation. And again, that is never permissible. And liberalism sides first rule of liberal science is fallibilism. In other words, anyone could be wrong. So no one gets to end the debate, say it's all over, we know, go away. And the second rule is the Empirical Rule, which says, Everyone needs to be checked by someone else. preferably someone with a different point of view. And preferably, it should not matter who you are.

Stephen Bradford Long 11:27
You know, there's something so counterintuitive about it. And I regularly felt this way reading your book of, of it almost like chafing up against my human nature and my natural impulses to try to silence or try to, or, you know, I am I am queer, I thinking of about how I often want to protect, you know, say trans people from language that's hurtful to them. And I think a lot of people have that natural impulse to want to protect or shelter or not entertain certain arguments that they deem as as profoundly wrong. There is something incredibly counterintuitive and innovative about it, that that seems to chafe very much against human nature.

Jonathan Rauch 12:21
Well, you put your finger on it, Stephen to pronounce to prefer Steven. Steve. Yeah, Stephen, Stephen. You put your figure finger excuse me, on possibly the greatest challenge that that liberal science or what I now call the constitutional knowledge, faces, which is it's profoundly counterintuitive. The idea that ideas and speech and thought that is offensive, blasphemous, radical, obnoxious, wrongheaded, or prejudiced. That speech of this kind should not only be allowed, but should be affirmatively protected, is, I think, without exception, the single most counterintuitive social idea of all time, bar none. And the only thing that saves it is that it's also the single most successful social idea of all time, bar none. But this means that everyday people like me, and maybe you if you're in favor of free speech.

Stephen Bradford Long 13:31
Very so yeah.

Jonathan Rauch 13:32
And our children, and their children and their grandchildren, will have to get up every morning, for the rest of time. And defend this system, liberal science, they'll have to defend it from scratch. And we just have to be cheerful about that, because we got a great case to make. And we're doing actually extraordinarily well, but this will, this will never come naturally. And if you think of it, market economies don't really come naturally, you have to trust prices that are set in faraway places by complete strangers, you have to trust that this little piece of paper is you know, was actually worth something. So all of these systems, these liberal systems that are based on rules and interoperable people in faraway places and dealings with total strangers, they're all very counterintuitive, and for that reason, they are all vulnerable to attack.

Stephen Bradford Long 14:24
Absolutely. And you know, I so I'm part of a minority religion. I am a member of the Satanic Temple. I'm also gay so being a member of a minority religion and being a sexual minority I have a particularly vested interest in protecting free speech. Because free speech is the institution it is the it is the principle that protects people like me. And if we set the precedent for violating free speech, this is why I'm such an obnoxious free speech, bro and probably really annoying. Every one online, this is why I'm such a, you know, a persistent advocate of free speech. Because if we set the precedent for violating free speech for, you know, in the words of the fourth tenet infringing upon the speech of others infringing on the rights of others, then we forego our own. And I feel like that is particularly true of minorities who have a lot to lose if we lose our free speech and I, who will be the first ones to be turned on, it's going to be the weird ones. It's going to it's going to be the weird fringe ones that make society uncomfortable.

Jonathan Rauch 15:44
No, Steven, what breaks my heart today, more than I think anything else is that so many, either members of minority groups or activists who claim to speak from minority groups have turned against free speech, and now denounce it as a tool of oppression or capitalism or, or what have you. They think it's conservative, they think it's oppressive, or at least they claim, they think that and, and that breaks my heart because I am a homosexual American. I was born in 1960. And in the world I grew up in, we were reviled from the pulpit, as a stench in God's nostrils by Judaism, Christianity, Islam, we were the sin that could not even be named in public. That's how shameful we were. We were regarded by the psychiatric profession as mentally ill, who was there in the diagnostic manual? It was illegal for us to have intimate sexual relations in the privacy of our own homes. We could not work for the government, we could not get security clearances, on and on and on. And here I am, I've been married to a man, Michael, for over 10 years now, in one lifetime. And the way we did that the only way we did that was free speech, the ability to make our case, we got that ability in 1958, a Supreme Court decision called one versus Olson, most people never heard of it. But it overturned government censorship of gay speech, gay magazine. And we started making our case that year, and it took a while but we change minds. So dissidents, the world over Soviet Union, Frederick Douglass, in America, Hosea Williams, Martin Luther King's great organizer, John Lewis, another king, Lieutenant, all of them have said again and again, that as Louis put it without free speech, the civil rights movement would have been a bird out was and it It breaks my heart that people who stand for social justice are abandoning that principle. Now,

Stephen Bradford Long 18:03
why do you think that is? What? Why do you think so many of my comrades on the left, what is it about free speech that so many on the left are turning against?

Jonathan Rauch 18:18
Well, I'm not sure it's actually all that complicated. The dynamics are, that when you're a dissenter, when you're a minority, it's pretty clear to you why free speech is so important. When you are a functional majority, when you control the terms of the debate, when you have the cultural commanding heights, then these three speakers, these people saying these obviously untrue things. They're a nuisance. They're just a social problem. And they're getting in the way of doing what you and most other people know to be. Right. Well, there was a time in America when the left was in places like academia, for example, and newsrooms, pretty marginalized and tended to be left leaning groups like the ACLU that supported free speech, ACLU mercifully still does. But there are a lot of communities now, especially in the academic world, but also increasingly in the world of journalism and corporate human relations. And others were left wing ideas, essentially control or dominate the conversation to stuff like anti racism, support for affirmative action, LGBTQ rights, broadly defined, and so forth, and so on. Once you're in a position where the water around where you're the fish in the water and the water around you is predominantly agreeing with you suddenly, it's no longer obvious why you should tolerate these annoying conservatives with these anti social and simply wrongheaded opinions. And this goes back to what you were saying earlier, Stephen, the point you started with which is so important, which is this idea is counterintuitive. And once someone thinks They have the right answer and has the power to impose that answer. Why waste time allowing these allowing nonsense, harmful nonsense to propagate? So I think a lot of the left are well intentioned activists who think, well, you know, these are just bad ideas on the right. And it's just time to stamp them out.

Stephen Bradford Long 20:18
Right. Right.

Jonathan Rauch 20:19
And you think I'm right about that, by the way?

Stephen Bradford Long 20:23
I yeah, I do, I think that I think that the left has made a lot more progress than maybe we often, you know, give ourselves credit for. This is the best time to be alive. As a gay person. It may be world history, like, I wouldn't want to live in any other time now as a gay man than right now. And that's, that's just unprecedented. And so there has been this incredible rights movement that you've seen, you know, you as, as an elder, gay, as a gay activist, who is kind of at the frontlines of this battle. But this is, I don't know, we've seen so much progress. You know, I say this as the Roe v. Wade, as Roe v. Wade was reversed in lots of people are very nervous about maybe gay marriage being next. I don't know what you think about that? Or if that's a possibility, but a lot of people are nervous about that. So maybe that's a threat? I don't, I don't know it could be. So of course, there's, there's always more work to do. But the work that has been done is simply unprecedented. Like, this is the best time to be alive as a gay man, it makes sense that with that progress comes a taking comes, you know, taking speech for granted. So I think your diagnosis might be correct, yeah,

Jonathan Rauch 21:48
it just means that you and I have to work every day, to try to instill the notion among the culturally powerful, whichever side, they may happen to be on that the voice of the dissident is our most cherishable resource. Because that dissident just might be right, we might have something to learn from that person. And if we silenced that person, we make ourselves ignorant.

Stephen Bradford Long 22:14
I feel like this leads into a broader issue that you tackle and the constitution of knowledge. So free speech is, of course, a central piece of what you call the constitution of knowledge. But free speech, and this, I think, was the big revelation for me reading your book, free speech alone is not. How do I say this? How do I want to say this? Yeah, yeah, free? Yeah, if free speech alone is not enough. And so it's like having the right I don't know, I was, as I was listening to your book, I was trying to come up with like a good metaphors for this. So it's like having the right to drive or something, you know, being able to drive? Well, there's immense freedom with that. But free speech without the the institutions and principles that come from the constitution of knowledge. It's like having, having drivers but no traffic lights, or something. And so free speech is not enough. There have to be the additional structures in order for it to work. So what are those additional things that make up the constitution of knowledge?

Jonathan Rauch 23:27
Well, I love the traffic analogy. And I've used it myself, you know, that, that I used to kind of think that that social organization, liberal social organization, meaning rules based societies that are impersonal rules, like the ones we have that they just kind of organize themselves. And then I realized that's like saying, well transportations a great thing. So let's just put a bunch of cars out there, everyone will have a car. And we we've solved the problem, which kind of forgets that you need the roads, and the traffic lights and the rules, and the driver's ed schools and the system to punish people who break all those rules, and on and on and on. If the traffic systems working, we kind of take all that for granted. And we just think of a bunch of people out there in their cars. But if you don't have all of that structure, you don't have traffic, you just have a traffic jam. And the same thing is true. And that's that's the big jump that I made. In the second book that the first book, kindly Inquisitors is it is pretty laissez faire. It said the way knowledge forms is when we criticize each other's views. And out of that criticism arises knowledge and that's certainly true. It was a marketplace of ideas kind of idea. perfectly true but incomplete. Because it turns out, if you just have people randomly saying whatever they want to say, in whatever way they want to say you got to Twitter, you don't have advanced toward knowledge. You don't have advanced toward anything or 4chan. Even we're fortunate you typically you have a race to the bottom as people posture and see social status. at us and try to win attention by insulting other people or appealing to tribal loyalties and saying, you know, trolling, falsehoods, all of that stuff. Those are natural human tendencies. That's not just a function of social media. So this is a very old problem. How do you organize societies socially so that they can turn disagreement into knowledge. And it turns out, the breakthrough way to do that, is the constitution of knowledge. It's about the same age more or less a little older than the US Constitution. It's based on the same basic ideas, which are, the United States Constitution says there's one way and only one way to make national political decisions, basically laws and decisions about who's in office, you're gonna have to compromise with people who are different from yourself. And people will like to do that. It's a pain in the ass to compromise with wrongheaded stupid people. But what the founders understood is that by forcing compromise, you could take diversity and make it a friend of democracy and stability. You could force together a lot of different views, and incentivize people to come out with policies that aren't perfect, but reach a social consensus and do that dynamically through constantly new voices and new positions coming in. It's a system of genius, James Madison, is the great thinker behind it. And it's non coercive, because you can't use force to take power. And it's open ended. Because if you don't like this election, you have another election, and you've got one after that. Well, the Constitution of knowledge works on exactly the same kind of principles, I told people, this is not constitutional Knology it's not a metaphor and analogy, a simile a literal, literary device, it's an actual thing. It is rules and institutions, you can write them down, you can identify the institutions. And they force persuasion as the only way to make knowledge. And that's a breakthrough. Until the constitution of knowledge. If you wanted to make knowledge in a divided society, you typically won power. And then you actually executed or exiled or ostracized people who didn't believe it or didn't agree with you, along comes the Constitution knowledge and says, No, we're going to have a decentralized system, you're going to have to persuade people with views and biases that are very different than your own. And you're going to have to use that with methods like using reason, logic, evidence, experiments that anyone can replicate. And not until you've been through that process, and have made those converts and negotiated with them. And they're saying, well, your hypothesis isn't right. But how about this other hypothesis? Maybe it's a merger of the two? Uh huh. Let's test that one. And go through all the structures that are involved there. Those are academic articles. And in journalism, its its journalistic articles. law and government are also key parts of the system. After you persuaded those people, you have knowledge and you can put it in the textbooks. It's very much like the US Constitution. It sticks Apple for very much the same reasons. It brings not only knowledge, but it also brings freedom. It brings peace, but it requires sorry, this has been such a long response. But there's so much meat here. No, this is perfect. It requires rules and institutions. Freedom is not enough. People need to understand, for example, that we mentioned this earlier in a different context. When I write an article that I want other people to pay attention to, and focus on criticize, replicate, cite, I don't begin it with Steven, you ignorant slut, making personal attacks. I don't make up evidence. I don't cite unfounded conspiracy theories, I have to do things like structure it in a way that I can state a clear hypothesis in an impersonal way, I have to indicate what kind of evidence I'm reducing, and what kind of evidence would prove me wrong, I have to show some understanding of the existing literature and where my ideas fit in. I have to suggest an agenda for future research. And then I'm probably going to have to go to a conference and present it and revise it. And then once it's published, it's going to be reviewed If I'm lucky, and further modified, we'll think about all of that structure and all the years of acculturation and education it takes to do that and you realize all of those structures. That's what turns the disagreement part the Free Speech part into the objective none College part the stuff that goes into the textbooks. And now the critical turn, that stuff, the norms and institutions are what are so greatly and gravely under attack right now. Sorry, that went on and on and on.

Stephen Bradford Long 30:15
No, no, no, no, that was that was perfect. And also, while you were talking, it occurred to me that I think that the erosion of those norms and institutions is, is part of what leads to is one of many things that leads to people's skepticism of free speech, because I don't know if you saw the documentary into the storm queue into the storm on HBO. But basically, it's an it's an investigation into Q anon. And this guy named Fred who developed a chant, he is the programmer for HN. He said, You cannot see in that documentary, he said, You cannot see the consequences of free speech, and still support it, basically. And I've been thinking about that a lot, how people see what is celebrated as free speech on the internet. And there is kind of a inappropriate revulsion towards it. And the reason is, and this is the missing piece, is because there are no traffic lights, and speed limits. The constitution of knowledge is not there it is freedom of speech, it is free speech without the constitution of knowledge without those norms in place that determine, you know, rules of discourse. And I think that people have some people have such an aversion to free speech is, especially people in my generation, because their first exposure to the concept of free speech, we're, you know, was what were the chants or Gamergate, or what have you. And I think that that's another element there.

Jonathan Rauch 32:04
Yeah. And it's not just friendly amendment. You're exactly right. But it's it's not just the particular items of speech, which people read and don't like, which is creating this backlash, this distaste, I mean, you know, we all see stuff that we don't like that said, it's, it's that the environment, the epistemic environment, of HN, for example, or for that matter, much of Twitter is so toxic, it's not the one statement. It's the fact that in those environments, the incentives, the way the rules and norms work hard, you want to get eyeballs, you want to get attention. And the way you do that is by being outrageous, or attacking someone or abusing someone, you know, they say engagement is engagement. Yep. So it's not just that you have a few things people don't like, it's that you've created these toxic environments that there's an analogy, a historical analogy to American journalism newspapers, in the late 19th century, which had become basically toxic waste dumps of hyper partisanship and fake news. To the point where people were basically had lost confidence in what was in the newspapers, and the business model was starting to suffer, it was in the long term decline. And what happened then, is, some people said, We got to get our act together. And we've we've got to formulate some rules of the road in this industry, and they did. So in the early part of the 20th century, I think it was 1915, the American Society of newspaper editors is founded. And the first thing it does is promulgate ethics codes. For journalists, you can look them up, they're online. And there's the things that seem obvious now, like, you know, don't make stuff up, be fair and objective, care about what's true. Run corrections, if you're wrong. Well, that's obvious now, but someone had to think of it. And then you had the opening of journalism schools, which began training people and saying, This is a profession, you know, this is not just a form of entertainment. And there's some values here and some forms of integrity that you need to observe. And then you had prizes set up the Pulitzer is the greatest and, and ironically, was in the name of one of the yellow press, Media Barons, but you had lots of prizes, which said, We're gonna reward you if you do great reporting. That's true. So the quality of the journalism begins to improve the audience start to like it, the advertisers start to like it, you migrate the business model toward a truth based reality based form of journalism. And within 30 or 40 years, you've gone from William Randolph Hearst to a Who's the famous world war two correspondent Edward R. Murrow, and the golden age of fact, based American journalism, so it takes a while. But that was a form of constitution building that was American journalism, getting on board with the Constitution and knowledge. And the question now is, can we do something like that with social media? There's an effort to do that, which is encouraging Facebook's oversight board is a very interesting and important experiment and trying to create some transparent, accountable rules of the road for Facebook initially, but if it works out, maybe maybe more. And there are professional associations springing up, there's a new one, the I think it's the International Association of trust and safety officers, beginning to develop breast best practices around how you can protect trust and safety, including epistemic trust and safety, meaning truthfulness in online communities. We've got the development of the International fact checking network. Now over 350, independent fact checking organizations and they have credentialing and certification and things they have to do and show, be nonpartisan, show who your funders are, show hooks, show your work, all your sources. And those are increasingly hooking up to social media companies so that they can do some checking of what appears online. So we're in very early stages of beginning to build some rules of the roads and traffic laws, will we succeed? I don't know. But at least I think compared to five years ago, we're moving in the right direction.

Stephen Bradford Long 36:35
I hope so. And I just hope that it isn't, you know, the printing press on steroids. You know, everyone wants to point out to me, I'm kind of a Doomer when it comes to social media, and maybe too much. So, you know, I'm open to that possibility. But I generally agree with people like Jonathan Hite that like, we're, we're in a very challenging time. And people always point out to me like, well, you know, the, the printing press was a big shake up in in civilization. And we got through that just fine. No, no, we did. And we can say that now.

Jonathan Rauch 37:14
A third of the population of what's today's Germany possibly was murdered? Yeah, as a result of that. So yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 37:21
exactly. We, I would very much like you'd like maybe the printing press is not the best example of what to shoot for. Because, you know, it basically resulted in 300 years of horrific religious war. Right. So you in your book, you talk about two specific threats to the Constitution of knowledge and our digital age. One of those is troll culture from the right. And then another one of those is canceled culture from the left. And both of these are basically breaking the traffic rules. They're breaking the they're corroding the constitution of knowledge in their own way. So let's start with troll culture. What is troll culture online? And why is it a threat?

Jonathan Rauch 38:09
Well, it's not just online. That long predates online, but basically, it's misinformation, and especially disinformation. So, suppose you're, I don't know Vladimir Putin and you want to dominate the information space, but out and out. Censorship in the age of the internet just is not practical. There's just too many ways to circulate information. Well, there's another tactic you can use and it was very beautifully and succinctly explained by Steven Bannon, an aide to Donald Trump as flood the zone was shipped. You pour out so many falsehoods, half truths, exaggerations, conspiracy theories and the like. That people after a while they they don't know which end is up, they don't know what's true or what's false. They're hearing all kinds of things that things are not even consistent with each other. You create confusion, disorientation, cynicism, ultimately, demoralization people throw up their hands, they say, I don't know what's true anymore. Maybe the election was stolen in 2020. Maybe it wasn't we'll never know. And other people are just out and out to see well. The election was stolen in 2020. I'm seeing it everywhere. There must be something to it, or else I wouldn't be seeing it. We see this exemplified with astounding skill and success in the stop the steel campaign in 2020, the most successful disinformation campaign that's ever been run against the American people and not by foreigners, not by Vladimir Putin, but by Donald Trump and his minions and Associates in conservative media, the Republican Party and the grassroots. They flooded the zone with with every conceivable conspiracy theory they could come up with and when those were shot down, each one was replaced with two or three more, in Arizona, my home state, they claim the election was stolen. They actually solicited their own audit, in addition to four other audits that had been done when at this was in Maricopa County, Arizona, when that audit found that the count was accurate, that in fact, if anything, Trump's vote was slightly overstated. The Donald Trump got on national TV and said, You know what, I was wrong. Arizona was not stolen. Oh, wait, no, no, no, sorry, Steven. That's not what he said. He went to a rally. And instead he said, the result of the audit in Arizona shows that I want an out and out fabrication. And then he said, and by the way, it's not just America, Maricopa County, Pima County was stolen. Yeah, completely out of the blue. So this is how this works, you flood this homeless ship. This is a very sophisticated tactic. It's mastered by the Russians, but now picked up by Americans in a big way. And it's, it's hard to cope with, even if you understand it, but impossible to cope with, if you don't understand it. This is like swamping the traffic laws so that all the all the traffic lights are flashing every color at once, and everyone's driving on every side of the street, and so forth. It's like replacing the US Constitution and systematic structure of institutions and steps you have to go through with make it up anything goes Calvin Ball. And this is something we're not accustomed to dealing with. Because, as you mentioned, we're accustomed to dealing with censorship, you know, free speech. This is in a sense, in a way, it's about a cancerous version of free speech, free speech without any of the structures that you need to help people sort through it all.

Stephen Bradford Long 41:50
Yeah, and I feel like I, I kind of against my better judgment, I was just talking, I've been talking about this quite a bit on the show how I don't know what to do online, except kind of make a retreat from it, which is probably in the end, a good choice. But I'm so cynical now about literally every single thing that I see on Twitter, on social media, even if it might be true. And but it's a kind of cynicism that doesn't feel healthy to me. It's a kind of cynicism that I don't like it doesn't feel

Jonathan Rauch 42:31
it's an induced state.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:33
Yeah, it's a bad one. I hate it.

Jonathan Rauch 42:36
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Like all of this exercise is to make people cynical and demoralized. So they retrieved from the public sphere, which means they're no longer in the way of whoever is the demagogue or dictator, or a con man who wants to run things. Yeah, and that's exactly the state that they're trying to, to induce. And the answer to that is, I don't know, I don't care if you're on social media or not personally. But for you and me, and people like us, to understand the Constitution, knowledge, understand these attacks on it, and begin in whatever sphere where we have some personal influence in our own institutions in our own lives. Even just in our own behavior online, what we retweet, for example, to begin upholding the norms and values of the constitution of knowledge and insisting that other people do so too. And that means like, don't make stuff up. Just for example, don't retweet stuff, that that you don't have on really good authority is actually true. You know, if people stopped and use their brains for a couple of minutes, we'd have less of this nonsense. So some of this can be small. Some of these changes need to be much bigger, much more institutional,

Stephen Bradford Long 43:49
it goes all the way from the individual to the entire institution, talk some about canceled culture. Now I am aware that even using the phrase canceled culture might, you know, get some of my listeners hackles raised. But what's the threat that you see from canceled culture from the left?

Jonathan Rauch 44:09
Well, I'm I'm curious to ask you what would raise hackles about this conversation with your your friends on the left before we turn to cancel culture? Could I just add a footnote? Yes, please, that will help people be optimistic or at least hopeful. We are learning. We as a society and as individuals are learning and getting better at social media and the US government, in the form of the Biden administration just conducted a textbook example of a successful anti disinformation campaign in Ukraine. It will be studied for years to come to experts in the field. They got ahead of Russian disinformation for the first time and they disarmed a lot of it with a tactic called pre bunking telling people what they're likely to see and actually deterring Putin from doing a lot of it. So we are learning and that's the key Those are those big institutional changes we talked about. Okay, so we're about to talk about canceled culture. Why would that get you in trouble with your progressive friends? Like, what's their problem with this?

Stephen Bradford Long 45:09
Yeah. So I mean, it's, it's complicated. And whenever I talk about the concept of canceled culture, use the phrase canceled culture, talk about, you know, or try to allude to it with different language other than canceled culture. It's, it's incredibly radioactive. And one reason I think, is because it's perceived as a right wing talking point, and to or at, or a distraction from the real problems which are happening on the right. And so people will say, you know, yeah, sure, there's dysfunction on the left. But, you know, Trump is corroding democracy. And, you know, the theocratic right is, you know, destroying women's rights and bodily autonomy in Missouri and Louisiana and whatever. So isn't it a mis allocation of resources to care about this? To which, to which my response is, well, a movement that can't be self critical as a movement that's doomed to failure. And we can't, if we are so scared to talk about this, because of the because the right the far right has weaponized canceled culture if we're, if we're so scared to examine our flaws, because the right has, has taken these terms, taken these words, canceled culture, SJ, W's, whatever, and got it and distorted them and made them cancerous, then we're just doomed to failure if we can't self correct, because of that, we are a movement that can't self that can't self reflect as a movement that's doomed to failure. But it's been a battle. I mean, it's been a struggle, and I feel really vindicated actually, about by a piece that came out in the intercept by Ryan Grim, you might have seen it, where it did, yeah, it's great, where, you know, basically, he says that progressive meltdowns have stalled the nonprofit world. And these are nonprofits like the Sierra Club, I mean, really important. nonprofits that have been at the fore at sort of social justice and climate action and all this kind of stuff. We need these organizations to be able to do what they need to do. But they can't because they're being stalled by these internal meltdowns. So that's one thing that I point to, to but there's so much fear in in areas to it, there's so much fear in my circles to talk about this or discuss it, other people will try really hard to downplay it, they will say it doesn't exist, which I just don't have any patience for. I have zero patience for that. Because if that just feels like gaslighting to me that just feels like you know, it's like it's odd, it is fucking obvious that there is something very dysfunctional in certain parts of the left, that really hurts people. If anyone opens their eyes, look around on Twitter, look around at the nonprofit space, they will see it and then to just deny it and say oh, no, it isn't really happening or Oh no, this is just accountability culture that just feels like gaslighting and that's how you push people to the right because people will feel resentful by because of that people will and they will be like well the rights talking about this the right is the Ben Shapiro is you know naming this but my own colleagues on the left can't and that I have seen that push people to further extremes and then I think the other the other thing that's that gets in the way of people discussing it is oh, god dammit I just had that thought I just lost that thought. Um

Jonathan Rauch 49:33
Well there's it'll come back to you there's Oh, there it

Stephen Bradford Long 49:37
is. There it is. Also, you know, there's kind of the the the identity issue where canceling the word canceling cancel culture, the word woke. All of these words originated from communities of color from online communities of color. And so I've I've heard people say, Well, it isn't our language. It isn't our words the these Aren't our words so we shouldn't use them. And I want to read, you know, I, I'm one of those people who, you know, actually cares about shit like that, it maybe not to the degree that other people do. But I do want to respect the origins of certain words, and so on and so forth. You know, that's good to know. However, I struggle with it when it feels like an attempt to remove the very ability for us to talk about it.

Jonathan Rauch 50:27
And I'll respond to some of that very rich comment in just a minute. But let me ask you a follow up question. Do you feel that in the past year or so you are seeing any any change in attitudes on the progressive side toward more recognition that there is a problem with canceling with repression of alternative views with backlash and resentment as a result? Or you is it? Is it just the same?

Stephen Bradford Long 50:53
That's a really good question. I don't I I know that I've had lots of conversations behind the scenes. I know that I've done a lot of back channeling with people about the problem. And so those conversations do happen. And I will I will say this, I'm not as I'm not as afraid as I was in 2020, and 2019. So that's something you know, I'm less afraid that when I hit publish on a post, that my life will just be absolutely fucking ruined. Like I am as a content creator, I live in terror. I really, really do. I live in absolute fear. That anytime I hit publish on a podcast or an article, that it will just absolutely ruin my life for a month, or what have you. Or longer or longer. Yeah, and I. And I don't feel that fear as much, because I don't you feel it as much. I think my audience has proven to me that they can handle that, that they can handle disagreement. I'm still afraid of it. I'm also more confident now that a lot of my colleagues wouldn't completely abandon me. Because we've, we've talked about this. And so I think I have a bit more security, a bit more of a feeling of security than I did. So that if I, you know, interview someone like you or Helen pluck rose or Katie Herzog, or whoever, that my life won't just be completely destroyed.

Jonathan Rauch 52:49
Could you have Charles Murray on your show.

Stephen Bradford Long 52:51
Could I have Charles Murray

Jonathan Rauch 52:53
...and survive socially?

Stephen Bradford Long 52:56
No, no, I don't think I could.

Jonathan Rauch 52:59
How about Jordan Peterson?

Stephen Bradford Long 53:01
Maybe? I mean, it depends on it depends on how I would conduct the interview. I think I would actually love to have Jordan Peterson on. I would be fascinated to talk to him. I avoid a lot of those conversations because I'm afraid of not conducting the interview. Well, right. So I,

Jonathan Rauch 53:24
but that's a different issue. Yeah, question is would you be? Is it something you would want to do and otherwise would do but you were too frightened to do.

Stephen Bradford Long 53:33
I am definitely too frightened to have Jordan Peterson on. And Charles Murray. I don't I don't. Charles Charles Murray is so radioactive that it like spooks me to even talk about him. Because for anyone who knows about Charles Murray, it spooks me to even bring his name up.

Jonathan Rauch 53:54
Okay, how about I'll stop this soon.

Stephen Bradford Long 53:56
I don't know. No, no, this is this is an interesting exercise.

Jonathan Rauch 53:58
I do want to say some things about canceled culture. But how about Oh man, I'm going to lose your name Helen. She wrote the book on on trans that takes how long?

Stephen Bradford Long 54:09
Helen Joyce? No, I would never Alan Joyce. I would never talk to her. I couldn't I couldn't do that. I want to I would love to these are and actually this is this is one of the things that that has honestly made me consider giving up podcasting. I am getting so sick of having just safe conversations. They're so fucking boring. I've been doing this podcast for Sorry, I'm swearing a lot. I'm so sorry. I've been doing this podcast for five years. I'm getting so tired of having the same type of conversation over and over again. And I want to talk to people like Jordan Peterson and Helen Joyce and Jessie single people who are genuinely interesting and compelling who I probably have some strong disagreements with or not, but I, I live in, in a lot of fear of my fellow LGBTQ people. And that's pretty distressing. And it honestly makes me sometimes just walk away like I would rather just leave then not have, you know, not have those interesting and challenging conversations.

Jonathan Rauch 55:28
And wow, well, you just said that publicly? I did. If you if you publish this podcast, I assume you have not, you will decide whether to publish it. But if you do, you'll have made that statement in public. And I will be very curious to see what if any kind of reaction you get from your audience, students are saying in surveys, including progressive students, that they want to encounter conservative views, more than they do on campus, they're saying they want more debate and open conversation than they're getting on campus. Professors. And universities are saying the same thing and lamenting more and more and more and more publicly, how difficult it is now to get students to be candid in the classroom because they're worried about social marginalization outside the classroom. So you said a few things along the along the way there that that I want to hit. The first is a point that your progressive friends make, which I think is right, in a significant way, which is I think the bigger threat to American democracy and the constitution of knowledge right now is the threat from the right, because it owns an entire political party, the biggest news network in the country, which is more important than social media in terms of spreading, spreading falsehoods, and lies and causing all these things. That's Fox News for people who are Fox News, if you're wondering, and not everyone on Fox News, but you know, when Chris Wallace bails out, because of what Sean Hannity is doing, you got a problem. Yeah. So So yes, the right is the bigger problem right now. But I agree with you that we have to walk and chew gum, the right is a heart attack. But the left Kancil culture is cancer, because it's eating out the core of our institutions that are supposed to be in the business of robust argument and debate to keep ourselves honest, to show the rest of the world that we're honest, to make our ideas better, and to show us when we've gone wrong and or the point on which they're not right, and you are right is canceled culture exists. It is not just accountability. It is not just you know, wealthy white people being criticized and not liking it. We have survey after survey now that show consistently that over 60% of Americans are afraid to say what they think about politics often or some of the time, because of fear of social repercussions, a third of Americans across every ideological category, this is not a right wing thing. It's also a progressive thing. A third of Americans say they're worried about losing their job or career opportunities. If they state their true views about politics. It's hard to compare, but scholars have tried and it looks like in terms of chilling, that is people being unwilling to state their their true views. The level of chilling in the United States now is three to four times the level of 1953 1954. In other words, it's three or four times the height of the McCarthy, McCarthyism, right? Yeah, right. Now, these are not consistent with a culture of healthy criticism in which the problem is that Stephen longer Jonathan Roush feels that someone might say, Hey, you're wrong about that. And here's why you don't know what you're talking about. Here's the evidence. I'm happy to receive that criticism. I think you are too. Absolutely. But what you described is something different. It's a climate of fear. And fear is not incidental here fear is the product. So what I what I try to do in my book, is help people understand the canceled culture is although it differs from in many ways, it's parallel to troll culture, because it is a sophisticated form of cognitive warfare. It's about manipulating the social and media environment to change what we think what we think it's safe to think what we think others think, in order to divide and demoralize us. So how does this work? What are they actually doing that's making you so afraid, getting inside your head and turning you into a version of yourself that you're probably not perfectly happy with? Oh, yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 59:41
I hate this part of myself. I really do. Yeah,

Jonathan Rauch 59:45
people hate being in a toxified manipulated epistemic environment. It's why the Soviet Union ultimately failed. You can only do this for so long and that's one of the advantages is constitutional knowledge has, but what percentage of the American populace Should you guess our true blue progressives? You know, believe in you, I don't know, maybe use Latin X and LGBTQ and anti racist, you know, the progressive, the progressive stuff, what percentage would you say are behind that?

Stephen Bradford Long 1:00:16
I? I don't know. But from it give me just give me a guess sort of 10% No 5%? Small, very low. right ballpark, it's okay.

Jonathan Rauch 1:00:27
8% 2018 hidden tribes study, which is a very good study.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:00:31
And by the way, that's the that's the tribe that I, whenever I take that test I, I score, and that's, that's what my results always are.

Jonathan Rauch 1:00:40
So, so that's good. So you're a true blue, blue progressive. Yeah. But an interesting question is this is only 8% of the public. So why is it they're able to have such outsized influence, for example, on campuses, and HR departments, intellectual culture, media, and so forth? Well, if you're a small group, and you want to greatly amplify your influence, and suppress the other side, what you can do is manipulate the apparent consensus. So it appears that everyone agrees with you, and no one agrees with the other side, humans are consensus speaking, seeking animals. So if we're in a room full of people, this experiments been done. And you give people an obvious visual test. And the answer is obvious. But you put, I don't know seven actors in a room with an experimental subject. The seven actors all give the wrong answer the obviously wrong answer, not even close. A third of the time, that last person in the room, the real experimental subject will go along with the group despite the plain evidence of their own eyes. And in repeated episodes of this repeated trials, 75% of people will go along with the group at least once that means most of us will comport either our views, or what we say or our views to match the perceived consensus around us. The key word there, though, is perceived What if you can falsify that consensus? What if you can use social weapons, like ostracism, for example, pylons, dragging on social media investigations on a college campus, you could lose your job, or you could be under terrible investigation that paralyzes you for six months? What if it's just that people hate you very vocally? Well, then you begin to create what's called in psychology, a spiral of silence. I don't think anyone else thinks what I think so I silence myself other people who think what I think, think that I don't think what they think so they silence themselves. Using these tactics, you see how clever how sophisticated This is, using these tactics, a small group can make itself appear to be the big group, they can make it appear that everyone agrees with them, or at least if you disagree with them, that there must be something wrong with you. And people then internalize that. So dude, what I'm telling you is you're being manipulated. A small group of people, maybe a bigger share of your audience, but I doubt even that, because I think many of your audience agree with you and are in the same boat you are they've been intimidated and isolated. By by canceling. I think you're being manipulated. And a lot of people are being manipulated. The good news is that I think more and more people are realizing that they're being manipulated, that these tactics of social coercion are being used not to foster an environment of open debate and criticism where, you know, you make an error, you lose the argument, and move on there, instead being used to foster a climate of fear of monoculture intellectually and a climate where if you're even accused of being wrong on one occasion, or you know, it can be a lame joke. It can be anything you lose your whole career, is some people never come back from from this. This is the opposite. This is now called canceled culture. Canceled culture is the opposite of the constitution of knowledge. And it's very effective. So there's a lot of ways to fight back. But, you know, I'm going to tell you that I hope that you would have one of those toxic radioactive people on your show. Because that's how we start to fight back. We start to realize we're being manipulated. We're being isolated, we're being demoralized.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:25
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And listening to you talk is I'm just thinking back two times and, you know, over the past two years, you know, especially since 2020, because that's when it got really challenging, where the the, it felt like the pressure to to fall in line was incredibly powerful. And I tried to follow the rule to never lie to be in a position where if someone asks me point blank, what I think about something I will tell them and there have been Situ patients that I've found myself in where to my shame, I just lie, because it's because it's basically like a don't hurt me cover, like, like it and and I hate that about myself and I hate being in that situation and I hate you know that that sense of corrosion of my character where I will you know, be it you know I'll be at dinner I'll I'll be at a party or whatever someone will ask me point blank something and I find that I just lie, I fucking hate that it's a terrible thing to do and a way to live. Yeah.

Jonathan Rauch 1:05:43
It is a terrible way, way to live, you can ask someone who grew up in the Soviet Union, or you can ask a 62 year old American homosexual who lied every day to himself and to all the people around him for 25 years about who he was and who he loved. And who is spiritually and morally. piffle emptied out by that exercise. But but here's the thing to remember, it is very hard for any one individual to stick their head above the parapet and say, I'm going to say what I believe and to hell with you counselors, because you can get your head shot off. Yeah. But it takes a surprisingly small number of people in a group to begin to do that. Because remember, the counselors are a small group of people, they can't get everyone fired. They can do it one at a time. Maybe sometimes, but even that's getting harder. But you and a handful of other people on the left who are willing to say, you know, fuck this, we've been manipulated long enough. I'm gonna have Helen Joyce on my show. Who are I don't know, go get someone who believes that abortion is is a terrible moral sin and put that put them on your show. Get Pete Waner? I don't know he's, yeah, but but the point here is, it doesn't take very many people to change, to break up a spiral of silence. Because once someone realizes, hey, wait, there's someone else in the room who agrees with me, the dynamic of the spiral of silence can stop very quickly. So I mentioned the experiment where you put eight people in a room seven are actors, they all claim to say the wrong answer, see the wrong thing. The eighth person goes along, can do the same experiment, you change one small parameter, still seven actors and one actual subject in this room. But six of the answer of the actors give the obviously wrong answer. The seventh actor gives the right answer. What happens to the experimental subject, knowing one other person in the room sees things the way you do give that person the confidence to that their compliance drops from about 30% to five to 10%. Now remember, these are total strangers in this room, right? They're all just actors, you got there for this experiment. This isn't your friends, your family. All it takes is one stranger saying I might not be crazy. one other person agrees with me, to give us the courage to speak. So you can do that for someone. I can do that for someone I call this being a reality anchor. We can do this. And it doesn't take that many. And I think it's starting to happen. I think kind of peak cancellation was probably about 20 years ago, started not 20 years ago, getting tired probably about 10 years ago. Yeah, yeah, I think their power is diminishing. I think it's getting harder to get people fired, for example than it was two years ago. Got a long way to go. But you know, I think people are starting to wise up that they're being manipulated and used.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:08:41
Yeah, I think that's a great note to end on.

Jonathan Rauch 1:08:44
I want to I want to know how much you have enjoyed the conversation, though.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:08:47
Yeah, yeah. This has been a wonderful conversation, and I so appreciate you taking the time. It really means a lot to me.

Jonathan Rauch 1:08:53
Yeah, well, don't wimp out. It's, it's, it's not going to take everyone to begin breaking through this ossified culture. It just takes someone

Stephen Bradford Long 1:09:04
for people who want to find your work, where can they do that?

Jonathan Rauch 1:09:08
Well, of course, Amazon or any bookstore near you for the Constitution and knowledge. The book is better than the movie. I have a website, Jonathan roush.com. I don't put all my stuff up there. But I put what I think are the more important articles so you can explore my work there. You'll find links to some of my speeches, and books and all of that. I also have a Twitter, I have a Twitter account. It's J O N underscore, R au ch. But I don't tweet all that much. I got bored with Twitter.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:09:38
It's so boring. I would much rather you know, watch birds or watch actual birds. All right. Well, Jonathan Roush. This has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you.

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STStruggleforJustice

2022-10-11T08:06:13Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STStruggleforJustice
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, tst, fucking, laws, fight, abortion, criticism, world, happening, satanism, rights, religious, life, rage, privacy, feel, person, community, long, point
SPEAKERS
Stephen Bradford Long, Chalice Blythe

Stephen Bradford Long 00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast this is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long, and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com All right, well, I am here for a casual chat with my friend and colleague Elise Blythe. But before we get to that, as always, I have to thank my patrons. My patrons are my personal Lord and Savior's and this week, I have to thank Scott Armstrong, Anna, King zombie, lunar Loon, and a dose a start. Thank you so much. You are all funding my truly debilitating content creation, addiction and keeping me from selling my own internal organs on the street. So thank you so much. I truly could not do this without you. And for anyone listening to this who want to join their number, just go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long, and you ensure the long life of my work. All right. Chalice, how are you?

Chalice Blythe 01:23
Hi, I'm doing all right. How are you doing today?

Stephen Bradford Long 01:27
I'm fucking exhausted. As we were just also, my audience will always know when I'm having a rough week when there isn't a show that comes out. And it's to the point now, where if I don't put a show out, I start getting emails like, are you okay? And I'm like, Yes, I'm fine. I'm just very busy and very tired. Yeah, but yeah, no, I'm fine. How are you? I already asked you that. I'm glad you're well.

Chalice Blythe 01:58
Yeah, you know, I am also I'm also very tired. I had a long week of traveling, and I just got back really, really late. Well, technically, I guess Thursday morning, it would be so yeah, Wednesday evening, Thursday night, and yeah, I'm still recovering from from that it was good to travel. But you kind of have to, you know, take time off from your time off. So

Stephen Bradford Long 02:25
absolutely. Yeah. I saw pictures of you up in Salem at headquarters. Yeah, headquarters.

Chalice Blythe 02:31
It was very lovely. Um, you know, got to see the Albany congregation is kind of starting back up and doing events and doing more in person things. So we decided to do a group trip to Salem headquarters. And so yeah, we went and did that site Q. Went around Salem did all the typical touristy things. We saw Tom's Tom's tour that he did that he does. And that was, that was pretty good. And yeah, so

Stephen Bradford Long 03:14
fantastic. Well, that's great. I have been working the retail grind as as always. And I feel like I feel like whenever I have someone from ordination Council on and I asked them at the beginning, so how are you in there? Everyone is like, oh my god, I'm so fucking exhausted. Yeah, but basically, we're basically anyone who works in TST in any proximity whenever I have them on, they're always like, oh my god, I'm so exhausted. So I should probably provide some background here. She Elise, you are co member on ordination council with for the Satanic Temple. And we oversee the operations of the ordination program. So that for people who are completely lost right out of the gate, that's, that's who we are what we're talking about.

Chalice Blythe 04:08
Yeah. And it's okay. Nobody should know who the fuck I am. I don't even know who I am so

Stephen Bradford Long 04:14
perfect. All right. Well, so I asked you to come on, because you were one of the first people I thought of to have on in light of the just terrible news out of the Supreme Court. And I I know that I'm really late to this topic. I tend to be late to a lot of topics but I so I know that I'm late to this topic, but better late than never, I guess. How did how did the what were your first? What were your first thoughts in the moment when you heard the news that there was this leak out of the Supreme Court that basically spells the demise of Roe v Wade.

Chalice Blythe 04:55
So my initial reaction was not being If at all surprised that it was going to happen, because we've known this was the stated goal and purpose of our lawmakers for a long time now, and for those who actually show up on do the work, so to speak, to instill their viewpoints and values at the detriment of those that do not share their values. So, yeah, my initial reaction was, well, the time has come, you know, we all saw this coming, immediately followed by a rage that I can only describe as something that I have not felt since my youth youth, I wanted to I, frankly, I had very violent thoughts. I was reminded of the quote unquote, good old days when, you know, the union workers, if they're, if the boss has violated union rules, or anything like that, they drag them out of their house and beat them within an inch of their life in front of their families. And those kinds of thoughts gave me a lot of comfort, because I really felt that that was going to be the only proper appropriate way to deal with the people that had just made the decision. And, you know, for a good week or two, I think, my feelings on it, were just, I don't know what to do now. Because in the in the immediacy, in the immediacy of this, usually what has ends up happening is the question is asked, Well, what do we do? What are we gonna do? What are we gonna do? And it took me a good week, week and a half to even be able to think about that, because I, I needed to be in the emotion of what, what I just kind of had to deal with my feelings on it. You know, it just because you're not surprised by something doesn't mean it doesn't have a very deep impact. The reality of it, despite knowing it was coming, just hit a hit a lot different than other things have hit, I usually like to pride myself in being very quick to hearing devastating news and immediately trying to find a way to either be the source of comfort or fix something. But in this instance, I, I was just despondent for about a week and a half, I had no answers for anybody, I could not provide comfort to anybody. I was just like, Yeah, this fucking sucks. And I'm just gonna sit, I'm just gonna sit and feel helpless for a little bit. And then, you know, after after processing the emotion of it, processing the reality of it and processing the feelings of well, not necessarily feelings, but you know, going through the checklist of okay, so I gotta renew my passport, I got to look into different countries that do the kinds of things that I do professionally, and would like my resume. So though, you know, a little those things, those things start turning, and then then eventually starting to think about what can be done. I actually have no idea what the answer to that is. I still have no idea.

Stephen Bradford Long 08:15
Yeah, you know, I don't, that whole process that you just described, is the process that so many people are going through right now, because it is a genuine blow to equality. And it is a genuine blow to, like I I can't imagine anything like more fundamental to someone's personhood than their own body. And to lose that to lose one's fundamental ability to choose and have authority over their own body, the cry of rage, the roar of rage that just swept this entire country is I'm it's what you just described is, is what so many people have been expressing and I think it's entirely appropriate. I mean, I not that I'm the one to say whether it's entirely appropriate or not, I'm not directly affected by this issue. But it seems entirely appropriate to me that rage and helplessness would be the first and despondency would be the first reaction to this.

Chalice Blythe 09:27
Yeah. And I think you know, the rage. You know, the rage I felt was twofold. You know, the rage that I felt against, you know, those who, you know, were the ones doing the thing, the ones who had contributed to this effort, and were the ones making these decisions, but I also felt another rage and the other Rage was we knew this was coming. We knew we knew what was going on. They haven't been quiet about it. They haven't you know, made a decision. Correct. So with all that notice with all that knowing what was happening, and really wanting to see those who claim to support bodily autonomy, you know, support our right to, you know, the, basically our privacy, you know, they say the words, they get on their Twitter accounts, and they rage, and they do that. But the only thing they do is engage and eating their own, the only thing they do is, you know, discredit, and, you know, levy attacks not against those who are oppressing us, but but those within our own spheres that don't meet certain, you know, purity qualifications, you know, to be on to be to have the ability to be on the same side, my rage was also against that as well, because we have always had the ability and the opportunity to fight against this in a meaningful way. And to stop it from happening. Because, you know, this whole thing is just, I mean, this is just the RIP, this is just the final, final death, death howls of a dying privilege. You know, I mean, this is white Christian, conservative men seeing their power diminished, seeing their status as the dominant class in America going away, um, they're wanting to reclaim their privilege, you know, they're turning to and the way they're doing it is turning to lifetime appointments, and an unchecked branch of government to retain and reclaim that status and privilege. You know, they're seeing their pews emptying, they're seeing their labor force dwindling, they're seeing people of color ascend to equal status, and gender and sexuality no longer being defined to the binary, you know, things like that they're terrified. And this is why this is happening. And we know this has been happening, and yet, so you know, what they do is they band together and they get it done. You know, despite the consequences, despite the fact they're hypocrites, and we all know, they're hypocrites, they know, they're, they're hypocrites, but they do it anyway. Because at the end of the day, they have a goal and they want to achieve it. And yet, those who claim to want to defend, you know, our rights to our autonomy, our rights to a quality really can't stop. over things that don't fucking matter at the end of the day. And so, you know, it's like nothing was ever done, there's no teeth, there's no real effort to defend, you know, it's, you know, people just want to be seen as fighting the fight without actually doing the work, because the work is hard. It takes a long time, it sometimes, you know, means that you have to compromise and you have to negotiate, and you have to deal with people you don't like, um, you know, that's what that's what that means. And you know, sometimes you have to do things that might seem to not necessarily be in line with your own values, but the end of the day has a greater as a greater goal purpose and you know, greater outcome outside of yourself. And then efforts not being done on the side of, you know, those who want to protect, you know, protect your rights, or at least they claim to So, that was the other rage I was feeling. I feel

Stephen Bradford Long 13:31
like like you said, the right falls in into fucking line the, and as fractious and, and balkanized. As the right is, when there is a cause that they are fighting for, they fall in fucking line. And, like I I remember several years ago, watching Protestant and Catholic like conservative Protestants, conservative evangelicals and Conservative Catholics and I mean, like ultra conservative Catholics, the two groups who have historically hated each other consistently for like 500 years fall in line together against their quote unquote, common enemy, which is trans people and gay people and women and all people of childbearing potential and you know, it color was that people of color people of color Yeah, exactly, and and, and leftists and so on and so forth. And and I'm just like, they have this ability that the left doesn't have for whatever reason and the left has always had this problem the left has always had this problem of in of being of infighting, and I mean, going all the way back to the calm the communists and the socialists like refusing to work with each other to defeat Hitler like to combat Hitler like refusing to like it, this shit goes way back. This is part of the left's history and, and I just don't know how to fix it, I don't. And so, and sometimes I, I've noticed this trend inside of myself to where I sometimes feel like the real problems in the world just feel so huge. But you know what I can do? I can fucking criticize this one leftist content creator on YouTube who I hate. That's what that feels. Instead there's something about it that feels productive. And, and I do this, I have done this and I have experienced the the temptation to do this still, nonstop. It's like, all I want to do is criticize my fellow lefties and my fellow progressives for doing leftism are wrong. And is that really the wisest allocation of resources? When theocracy is encroaching? Right now. And climate change is coming for all of us. Like, is, but But I, after doing a lot of introspection, because I think I did engage in some of that behavior last year where where I wrote some stuff that I think was, was it was critical of the left, but I don't know if it was critical in a helpful way. And, and looking, looking at that and doing some self reflecting. I think the reason why I did that, why I resorted to that was, oh, because that feels like I'm actually doing something. But that feels like it's actually accomplishing something. Because the big problems feel so helpless. They feel so hopeless and so huge. And they take time, and they take energy, and they're slow. And so having to, you know, buckle down and do that shit, it is so hard. But that's what we have to do in order to progress.

Chalice Blythe 17:08
Yeah, well, and so yeah, well, I mean, you know, making, making criticisms is the easy thing, right? That's actually something that we talk about a lot is it's, you know, it's so easy for somebody to, you know, fight imaginary monsters, because, you know, fighting the real ones is really difficult and seems impossible. So, it I mean, it makes us feel good, but it doesn't really require anything out of us. And then that and that's why it's always the go to so I mean, I'm hoping, well, I say the word hoping but I don't think I have any hope left. That's the problem. I'm, but I'll use it I guess. I mean, we've seen what effective although a pourraient we've seen what effective rallying together for a cause can accomplish. And it didn't happen overnight. And but they got the job done. And that is not going to stop at abortion. And it's going to continue with with other aspects of our lives. That if you're not a white Christian, conservative male, your mere existence is going to be punishable by death. I mean, and in some cases, and you know, so I would hope that people would see this and realize that the bullshit infighting and you know making criticisms of people for not falling directly into your idea of what a good so and so you are and just do the hard thing fight the fight you know, put in the time put in the investments, you know, realize it's not going to hope, you know, happen overnight, but still continue to do the work. You know, I hope that that's what people do. And you know, I'm not you know, saying you know, left or right but anybody who is going to be negative who is negatively impacted by this has the end You know, they have the means to do so. Take a lesson out of the take a lesson out of the handbook we were just given on how to you know, and how to effectively institute change on a federal level and use those use those lessons as a tool of defiance. That's all I really think we can do at this point, because it's not it's not going to end with with abortion. The two laws at issue have to do with privacy. They don't have anything to do with abortion specifically or they don't they don't say anything about abortion specifically. It has everything to do with people's right to privacy. And what's gonna end up happening, what people don't realize is that, you know, a court a case like Roe v. Wade has other implications, it has implications on people's right to love who they decide to love that has implications in who people decide to marry, it has implications and people's rights to the type of medical care they have, that don't have anything to do with abortion. This is going to, you know, this won't affect wealthy what you know, this one, you know, affects, you know, the wealthy, it won't affect anybody who, when they have the need for the services, they can get on a private jet and go somewhere to make sure it gets done. This is going to affect the poor, it is going to affect the abused, it's going to affect struggling mothers, it is going to affect the LGBTQ IA and community it is going to affect the bipoc community, it is going to affect everybody in so many ways. And it is going to get to the point and I say this not as a, you know, reaching to the worst conclusions, but just going off of what these lawmakers have actually said is their intent. You know, they they want to make biology in itself. Whether it's relating to reproduction, whether it whether it's coming to, you know, like the trans community, just making those things just illegal. So illegal, and you know, you're gonna be a felon. And you know, what, felons can't do? They can't vote.

Stephen Bradford Long 21:39
Exactly. It is. So basically, in some of the laws are, especially in like, like Louisiana are so unbelievably draconian. Yep. And could you just like, I don't know, if you know, these facts off the top of your head, but, I mean, it's a it's a fucking litany of horrific things that the states are making, pregnant people go through.

Chalice Blythe 22:10
So you know, we've got things that we're dealing with trigger laws, meaning laws that have already been written and put into place, in so far is that once Roe v Wade is overturned, those laws will automatically become laws, you know, they're already voted on. And they're only applicable once Roe v. Wade is overturned. And, you know, this, this can come down to some of the ones that I've heard of that are, that are either a trigger law, or at the very least, they're currently going through committees and being voted on are one such as stating that an individual human life starts at conception. And that any, you know, whether who have an egg that I wouldn't even know how they would determine that, but you know, sometimes fertilized eggs don't implant, you know, sometimes that just happens again, that is just how biology works. And so, you know, just a normal, just a normal cycle of somebody who has a normal period. Well, guess what, you're a murderer. I mean, if you have a period tracker on your phone, they could probably use your data to determine whether or not you know, you're, you know, oh, why, you know, says here in your data that your period was late by two weeks, you know, why was that? Did you have an abortion, you know, things like that. I mean, I really, we're talking about witch trial shit, you know, it's one of those things. Speaking of Tom Salem walking tour, we learned a lot about witch hunts in and the ways in which people would accuse those of witchcraft and sometimes it would just come down to, I simply just don't like this person, you know, it could it could be the next witch hunt, you know, if these if these laws do get passed, and I'm specifically talking about the laws that would consider a fertilized egg, a unique individual person, and the destruction of that egg would be the equivalent of murder of you know, killing, you know, killing another human being, you know, if you simply don't like somebody, all you have to do is just, you know, point the finger and say, this person did this or whatever, and it's not like you can really, you know, prove things on a microscopic sales scale. So, you know, but it doesn't really matter anymore. Like, the ability to prove things, you know, basing anything off of what we understand medical science to be or anything like that, that shuts out the window. Now, nobody cares. I mean, like, that's the world we live in. And that Yeah, so I mean, other trigger laws that are gonna go into making in the performing of an abortion, a felony sometimes and in some of the It's not like even even if it's to say the life of the person carrying the fetus. That would be a felony not only on the purse on the pregnant person, but the doctor who would perform it, whether that's a surgical abortion or providing any medications for that. And yet all abortions would be illegal punishable by up to 10 years in prison and fines.

Stephen Bradford Long 25:24
Yeah, it the list just goes on. It just goes on. It is the most fucking medieval shit I have ever seen. In this country, like, it is absolutely ridiculous.

Chalice Blythe 25:39
Yeah, and, you know, again, it's it's not going to stop at abortion, this this is not going to stop these are these cases pertain to a person's privacy. And so once privacy is out the window, anything goes any any rights that we have, as part as, as part of our basic human rights that we have had to fight for, under the under the umbrella of having the right to privacy, you know, those could go to and since this is like the dying, gasp, the dime scream of you know, terrify conservatives, zealots. You know, they're pretty much gonna do everything they can with the limited amount of time that they do have on this earth. Um, yeah, there's, I'm sure we're gonna be looking at a whole bunch of laws enshrined that we see as common sense, but those can get ruled out, you know, especially since the Supreme Court has basically said your right to privacy is now, you know, is not federally protected, it's up to the states to determine what your rights to privacy are. And that's essentially what the Supreme Court has said. So, um, yeah, so fuck them first and foremost, right? You know, it genuinely

Stephen Bradford Long 26:53
makes me wonder if the the response is going to have to be far more on the basis of religious freedom. And I don't know enough about law or whatnot. Like, I, I don't have enough understanding about any of this to really speak coherently on this subject, which is one reason why I don't talk about it. But I genuinely wonder if privacy will no longer be grounds for autonomy, will, will it be the case, then that religious conviction will have to be and so for example, certain I, as I understand it, a lot of Jews believe that life begins at first breath. Yeah, so so that is a religious conviction. Could like a group of Jews who are in a synagogue, could they bring a lawsuit or whatever, on the basis of that religious belief, I don't know enough about any of this. But I'm like, it's going to have to be replaced with something. And because there's already such precedent in the United States for religious freedom for Christians to do whatever the fuck they want, other other religions, other than the Satanic Temple are going to have to start using that other religions are going to have to utilize that other than just TST, in order to press for progressive causes.

Chalice Blythe 28:25
Yeah, I was actually talking to Lucien about this earlier. We were having a rage conversation. And this, this whole idea of, you know, you know, kind of the basis of the fights that we have in the courts, leverages the fact that we live in a country that has spent years putting into law putting into culture, this idea that people's religious, like religious rights outweigh and are more than anyone else's rights, right. You know, we have, you know, the RiFRA laws and, you know, we have essentially had to the nightmare reality we live in right now, is the result of us is the result of people's religious viewpoints being made to be having more weight and more importance than people's basic human rights. So because of that, in theory, if, if you are a religious person, it's not just Satanists. This could be any religious person, let's say, as part of their tenants as part of their beliefs as part of their religious practice. It is required that when it comes to the topic of you know, people's civil rights, or when it comes to the topic of abortion, and you know, like, you know, like you said, you know, the Jews believe that life begins at first breath, it's actually in their scripture. Um, In certain, you know, in certain sex, there's, if if the life of the pregnant person is at risk, you are required to make sure that you know, you value put value on the life of the pregnant person over the fetus and an abortion is required if it's medically necessary. And if it's to save the life, or if it's for any reason, then you have to do it. And there's no shame or guilt or anything surrounded, surrounded by that decision from a religious point of view. And then you have, you know, Satanists who believe that they, they have the sole rights to their bodily autonomy, they believe in you know, science, and we should not distort any beliefs, to had conflict to conflict with that, we're, you know, we don't distort things for the sake of making that fit our our own personal narrative. And, and these are part of our religious beliefs. So if you have a bunch of us coming in and saying, Well, this, this violates, you know, civil law happens, let's say like the six week abortion ban or something like that, and, you know, any anything related to these bands, anything related to that does not allow us to, you know, engage in our religious faith, it goes against our religious practice in our faith, the logic is that that should be respected, and that we would win in that case. Now, I say that, as in theory and legal practice, in theory, that's how that should go. Because of the precedent that has been set by you know, one, one particular religious group that has been using linchpin, leveraging that to take all our rights away. But these are also things that are used and utilized to benefit the majority to benefit those of which the those in which the we're the ones who need this, if you are someone of a faith belief, that is deemed reprehensible, if you have somebody, let's say you have a judge who thinks, you know, Satanists are evil, if they are anti semitic, if they have any issue, any issue at all, with with your belief system, your organization, whatever the case may be, what we have found in the Satanic Temple, and all of our legal proceedings, that the same rules do not apply, that we are required, we are subjected to way more criticism and way more needing to justify ourselves way more than anybody else. And because of that, we end up being in a position where the theory the legal theory keeps getting just it doesn't go anywhere. And, you know, people, you know, some some assholes like to think that, you know, because we keep, you know, running into issues with our court cases that it means we don't know what we're doing.

Stephen Bradford Long 33:15
I was just about to bring that up.

Chalice Blythe 33:17
Yeah, people. Yeah. And you know, and that's, and that's their thing. And, you know, my response to that is how are you not seeing this for what it actually is? Like? Obviously, we're hearing you know, where these criticisms are not coming from anyone with any legal expertise, mind you, but how are you not seeing these legally sound arguments that we're making, and seeing that no matter what we do, we are consistently discriminated against, and we are consistently, you know, thrown out of court, or we are consistently being ruled against as not being the exact result of the discrimination and the way in which these laws are meant to benefit the majority and not the minority? How are you not seeing this for what it is, as you know, this system was created and rigged to benefit somebody over the other and that our rights are not equal. And it is purposely made that way. Because if our rights really weren't equal, we wouldn't be in this fucking mess. We wouldn't be dealing with the shit we're dealing with people of you know, like LGBTQ community, the bipoc community, the anyone who's a religious minority, anything like that, if our rights were truly are like people that are having to deal with like gerrymandering, I mean, it goes even into our ability to vote. How are they not seeing this? How are they not realizing that it's not indicative of us not knowing what we're doing and us not fighting? The fight that's that's that, you know, that should be fought. It's proof of what it's proof of how much we are devalued in society and how much they fucking hate us and don't want us to have equal representation or equal voice and do anything they can do to take that away from us. I just don't get it. You know,

Stephen Bradford Long 35:24
like, Well, it's because they, it's because they hate us. I mean, I hate to be cynical. It's because we are an easy target. It's because I don't mean, which is, I don't care. Exactly. But I need people to not lie about us. They do it because it's an easy target. And it feels good. It's what we were just saying earlier in the show, it it. It feels like when people criticize TST by saying, Oh, look at their legal track record, isn't this proof that they are, you know, just apps completely, completely inept, at what they do isn't as proof that no one should ever support tst. And like you were just saying it's like, it's like you're you're suddenly expecting the wolves to treat the sheep, you know, fairly and kindly. You now that now that it's TST, trying trying to fight against the wolves like, oh, okay, suddenly the wolves are reasonable. Suddenly, the theocrats empower the religious conservative forces in the judicial system, oh, suddenly, suddenly, they are reasonable arbiters of justice, all of a sudden, all of

Chalice Blythe 36:39
a sudden, all of a sudden, yeah, in so you know, with this, what SCOTUS has demonstrated is that you're their ability to look at anything from a neutral point of view and merely keep it to the Constitution and merely key in and keep their personal opinions, their allegiances, everything like that, keep them at the door and just be this neutral body whose sole purpose is to make sure that nothing violates the Constitution, we I mean, that has proven that that is not possible. That's not the case. And we've known for so many years that when it comes to, you know, you know, state, federal, you know, anybody in some position of power, you know, always brings their biases and every end and in, yeah, they always bring their biases with them. And that tends to inform how they make a ruling, how they make a judgement, how they evaluate these cases, you know, and the way laws are written the way they're rewritten, you know, the people who have a vested interest in things being exactly the way that they are, you know, we'll do anything to make sure that those with privilege continue to be of in that privilege, and the rest of us get in line, get in line, shut your mouth, do as you're told. And, you know, and make sure that if we do there are, they can use the power of the state to enforce our silence. And so yeah, the the absolute insanity of just because you hate something, you know, those who hate GST, fine, whatever, you know, I still talk to a lot of people who think GST is fucking terrible, you know, and, and are constantly asking me, why are you still in it? And, you know, not to be shitty, but just constantly like, you know, like, I'm useless, right? You know, and I have my own reasons for still being a part of it. Now, I've worked really, really hard over many, many years to get to a place where the work I do is solely the work I want to do and not the work I don't want to do which what I did for years you know, being in leadership and and, you know, building various things, you know, within the organization and having to deal with things in that in that way. You know, I did all that work to get to the point where I'm no longer a member, you know, not leadership anymore. I get just I just get to be a nerd about Satanism all day. That's my job. That's what I get to do. And that's what all what I've always wanted. You know, I don't I'm not anyone's boss. I don't I don't like I'm not over anybody. I don't make decisions. or anything. It's the most wonderful thing in the world. It is so awesome. All I get to do is just read and write and learn more about Satanism and hopefully, like be able to pass that knowledge on to other people who have interest in Satanism, and it's not even just like, you know, how she is to define Satanism. I'm talking about the ISM the you know, you know everything to do with with Satanism, its history, its current practice, you know what the future looks like, I get to be a fucking nerd and I love it, it's my favorite thing in the world. And, but just because I've had that ability to get to that point, and nothing is has happened yet, um, that has been my that is, you know, just kind of been why I'm done moment. Even though I've actually had quite a few instances where I've almost said, I'm done, I stick with it for my own reasons and things I get to do and the things that, you know, I determine is not being my I'm done moments now, just because that's the case for me, does it mean that I don't understand other people's, you know, criticisms on, you know, their, their informed their informed criticisms, their, you know, their reasons for not wanting to be a part of it, and, you know, their frustrations for, you know, feeling like, you know, the two dudes at the top, just do whatever they want the name of T is T and, and the rest of us have to deal with the consequences. I'm like, I've been doing that for years. I know what that feels like. And it's really frustrating. But, you know, but because I view TSG as not being just two people, it's, it's, it's a whole other thing, it's a whole other, it's got a life of its own, it's all of others. Yeah, there's, there's so like, it's not just these two people anymore, and it's not the dump bullshit things they said 20 years ago, and it's not, you know, it's not any of that it's the community we've made, it's the various, you know, good works that come out of it, you know, all the, all the things that have inspired, then, you know, that had been inspired by it, you know, the core principles, and the core idea of what you see can be, you know, I just don't get distracted by the, by the cringe, I don't get distracted by the things I see as like, well, that's dumb, I wish they had done it anyway, you know, it just, you know, I just don't get distracted by it, because I just don't care. Because at the end of the day, I have a completely different perspective of what TSG is, and it is completely divorced by just whatever the, whatever the founders do, or say or whatever. But all that aside, I know that for some people, you know, that has a big impact, you know, they they don't feel like they have that voice and they don't feel like they have that ability to criticize without there being some kind of either negative reaction or anything like that. So you know, they decide to leave fine, it's fine. I like I don't care, find your happiness, you know, maybe you know, you know, not every community is for everybody. And because this is an ever evolving thing. What used to work might not work for that person anymore, so they leave in their own volition and that's fine. I'm very good friends with a lot of people in that circumstance and it has not sold our friendship at all in fact, you know, now outside of the context of teas, tea, I get to know them as like people, like you know, other aspects of their lives. It's like wow, you're way more interesting than you know, just the one facet that I know about you that all being said all that frustration all that hate all of the the conspiracy nonsense the basically Q anon level conspiracy theories, you know, all of that is, you know, I just I don't understand why people waste their time and energy the way that they do like, Don't you have something better to do? And you know, why why is it so important to see us fail so hard that you would take the side of the oppressor just so that, you know, you could you know, just stick your finger in our face and just laugh and just being like, I told you so. You know, because anything we do anything that we lose is indicative of what they're going to lose.

Stephen Bradford Long 43:59
Yeah, and yeah, we might we might as well just go ahead and say it so a lot of this a lot of this frustration that we're venting right now has to do with the fact that Illuminati who has a million plus subscribers on YouTube just posted another hit I mean, not not another one of her hit pieces on us but just another and a long series buy from a lot of venues have have have pieces that are not merely critical of this community. But are but are deceptive. That's the difference. That's the difference for me. I I welcome and I embrace criticism because honestly, my track record in life is that I am wrong way more often than I am right. Like I look back at my life and all the different shit that I have believed I'm wrong way more often than I am right and the only way, very often, that I become less wrong is through criticism, through through people actually caring about me enough to criticize me. And so I see criticism, even if it's brutal criticism, even if it is blunt criticism, I see all of that criticism, I see that as a sign of respect. It's that kind of criticism, that kind of feedback is telling me okay, you trust me to handle this. And the reason you trust me to handle it is because you care about me, genuine criticism is, is respectful it is it is a form of respect, even if it's brutal. Lying is not,

Chalice Blythe 45:42
it is not Yeah, well, the you know, the only way you evolve and grow and you get out of you unlearn bad things, and you know, you become better, whether that's as an individual or as an organization is you is you take the constructive criticism. And that has never been, well, more often than not, that has never been an issue for anybody to have those things and have them being listened to and have their ideas listened to, I mean, the whole reason we have a whole new, a whole new TST that has, you know, congregations and the pillar system, the whole reason it looks the way that it does now is because people were you know, those within have their had their criticisms. And, you know, we're we're talking about the things that they felt were necessary for TST you evolve and grow. And we were like, Alright, let's try it out. Let's figure it out. Let's, let's see if this works. And that's why the organization looks the way that it does now, but you know, people have their opinions but and, and people are, they are allowed their opinions, but I think my philosophy is you are allowed your informed opinion. And a lot of the times, what ends up happening is those who really want to believe in the absolute insane conspiracy elements of what they think TST to be, like, someone's going to say it and then other people who either don't know enough about it to, you know, really say anything about it, or you know, out of fear that they'll they'll be seen as culpable or anything like that, or impure. Or, you know, those who just want to who just really want to believe that that's the case, for whatever reason, um, you know, that's, that's the stuff we have to deal with all the time. And I just, I don't care about that stuff. You know, I haven't seen the video of this Illuminati person. I just don't, I just have better shit to do with my time. I know that, you know, and I know that like certain claims that go out there, you know, really deserve some kind of response. As far as I know, we do not charge groups, you know, exorbitant amounts of money to be a part and you know, pay to play is not a thing like, I have not given like, I've been with GST for nine years, and I haven't given them a single penny V two. single fucking cent.

Stephen Bradford Long 48:21
The only money that has been given to TST from my household is because my partner is what I call a mug, a Satanist, where he's only he has only in it for the mugs, which is great. And so yeah, he has he has dropped so much money on the T s. T handcrafted mugs from the from the shop on the main website. That is the only money that we have to Yeah. But I think that there's a deeper issue here, which is whenever something like this comes up. The question that I always want to ask is, what kind of world is this specific reaction? Creating? What kind of world is it moving towards? So for example, when someone accuses Our dearly beloved friend Lucian, grieves of, you know, saying, of being an anti Semite because of something he said 20 years ago, which I genuinely think it was a bad thing to say, I wish he hadn't said it. I think it was gross. But here's the thing, here's the thing. Do we want to live in a world where people can never recover from a stupid thing they did in their 20s? Or do we want a world where someone can do good in spite of what they've done in their past? Which of which of those worlds do we want? And that's the question that I that I find myself asking of the of bad faith actors. but not not literally because I try to avoid those conversations, but it's the thing that I find myself wondering and and the other thing is when when we brutalize other people who are working towards the same cause? What kind of world does that create? Does it create a world where we are closer to our goals? Or does it create a world where we are all collectively less likely to live? To live in a better world? I think it's the latter. And so so often I see these responses to to what TST is trying to do, and none of this is to say that TST is above criticism. We are not above criticism. No, no, we are absolutely not. I've done my fair share of screaming Oh, me too. Yeah, I mean, all of us have, and but the criticism is either Is it the criticism is always pointing towards a specific world, that we are going to live in that it is pointing towards a specific type of world and how we treat others and, and so if we, if we brutalized someone for not being just like us, even if we have the same goal, or if we are, or if we are criticizing someone for something they've said 20 years ago, despite the fact that everything that they have done sense points towards a, a different value system, that we're living in a world that hurts all of us. That's what that creates is a is an unsustainable world, where none of us get out of get out alive. That is what that leads to?

Chalice Blythe 51:46
Well, it does. Because what it what it does is, it creates a world where in the online sphere, you're considered a victor. Because you shame somebody for you know, treasons, whether that's real or imagined, but in the real world, everyone else is, you know, successfully taking your rights away, and the white nationalists win. But in the internet worlds, things are way more simple than that. And that's the world that people tend to put a lot more emphasis on, on important so that's why I really just don't engage or care about what some asshole on Twitter thinks TST is or isn't doing, especially when that claim is fucking ridiculous. Like, some YouTuber who probably found you know, stuff that sounded sexy, but didn't even bother to ask somebody who actually like lives and breathes this stuff, whether or not any of it had any validity, like you think I'm gonna take them seriously. You know? And it just why why would why would I bother doing that I know what I'm about, I know what I do and what I don't do, and I know what my colleagues do and don't do what they what they do and don't believe and the things that matter that brings us together. In in this you know, in this, you know, religious philosophy we share, you can't you can't sit there and say that you the, you know, you identify with these tenants and also hold beliefs of you know, being anti semitic, you can't hold the seven tenants as you know, deeply held beliefs and, you know, be you know, bigoted or you know, want to cause harm to the LGBTQ community or you know, the bipoc community. They just, you can't sit there and say that so, you know, then so, yeah, so it's just all nonsense, you know, like, you know, people being like, oh, where's the money going? Where's this? What's this? Like? How dare Lucien Greaves be a 20 year old white angry guy from Detroit he was a member of Church of Satan you know, how dare he say these things and then literally do everything completely awesome opposite to what he was saying in the 20 years ensuing including creating the organization that you know you yourself said you were you know, diehard fan of at one point I just I just don't care so you know, if some YouTuber of some idiot on Twitter wants to just you know, continue pushing this narrative of this eat, you know, this evil pyramid scheme organization that's only interested in your money and and that's all they do. And, you know, there's nothing good about it, then. Be my guest Be my guest. I don't care because at the end of the day, I know I live it, I see it, I know what this community is capable of that is not distracted by the hygiene. So it is not, you know, embroiling itself in turn, you know, making it a you know, just a you know, like, you know, dog eat dog. You know, I know what it means for people determined to not want really live their religious truth, you know, and, you know, legitimately do good things for the community, but also put in the work to make sure that others have that community as well, you know, whether it's, you know, campaigns like gray faction or even sober faction or things like that, or whether that's ministry, having ministers and all the, all the great education and guidance and all the things that, you know, has been happening, all the discussion, all of the, you know, very honest, hard discussions that are have because of, you know, like, you know, with our religious services and things like that,

Stephen Bradford Long 55:42
meanwhile, there's a story that I keep coming back to, that I find so compelling. And I really need to actually look up, I forget which book I read this in, and I've used this story so many times now that I really, like need to fact check myself and make sure I'm not fucking it up. But legal battles, and the battle for justice, as our tenant says, is ongoing. And that is so often hard, grueling, boring work. Yeah. And I think a fantastic example of that was, there was an LGBT. There was a, there was a an LGBT group that lobbied for years, they they were activists for years and years and years, for one thing, and that one thing was for the Library of Congress to acknowledge an LGBT category for literature. And that that's what they did they, and it took years, and they, but they finally did it. Yep. And the ripple effect of that in culture, that suddenly writing and content that suddenly it existed, where it didn't previously exist in the Library of Congress. And then that rippled out to all other parts of culture. And its fights like that, that so often go unnoticed, but have very real consequences for the world. But the thing is, those fights are boring, and you never know about them. Right? Those fights are so dull, and they take forever, but they have such a huge impact. And so we're in this for the long haul. And that's just another story. That's a story that just emphasizes, like the significance of the compound effect of little things over time, and attaining those little things as hard work, but they add up.

Chalice Blythe 58:02
Yeah. Well, I mean, if you think about it, if you think about just the story of Satan, right, this, you know, this figure who, against insurmountable odds, fought the fight anyway, even knowing that, you know, he was going to lose that, you know, he, and you know, depending on the story that you were referencing, didn't want to win. You know, because the the battle or you know, the, the victory, the victory that one has is killing the God within yourself and not, you know, the literal God. But, you know, I keep, I keep coming back to this idea, when when I get really frustrated when I keep getting asked, What do we do? And my answer is always, well, what we do is we start the work, because you are not going to get anything, any immediate answer any immediate reprieve for what we are facing. And that makes people feel bad, makes me feel bad. You know, if I could have a quick fix, don't you think I'd fucking do it? You know, I would. But that's just not it took so many years for us to get to this point, and is going to take a lot more time for us to get back any of our, like any of our rights back that are that are currently being dismantled. And so when I think about the story of Satan, and I think about the fact that right now we're Facing insurmountable odds, we have an obligation as Satanists to fight the fight anyway. We have the obligation to you know, have the fight that is the hard fight, the long fight the one that seems completely impossible, and one that we might not even see the any positive effects of in our lifetime. I mean, I had to make my piece a long time ago with the fact that anything that we do in this life year are anything that I feel strongly about and put my efforts into trying to see come to fruition, probably will not be something I ever get to benefit from, and I'm okay with it. Because at the end of the day, you know, if if not you, then who else, you know, and, you know, if you don't start somewhere, then you're never going to get anywhere, like whole generations fought, just to die, right before any of the any, anything that they fought for actually was something that became, you know, either whether it's a law, whether it's right, you know, whatever the case may be, whether there was any kind of victory of any kind. So, um, people may not agree with the tactics, and we may not, you know, we may just continuously prove time and time again, through our efforts, that if you belong to a minority religion, if you belong to any type of group that is not Christianity, the system is set up in such a way that it will always come back to not benefit you, or give you as much equal justice as it would, you know, the, the majority of our fight will probably just end up proving that point, time and time and time again. But we have to try, we have to do it, because otherwise, you know, are we actually living our values? Are we actually, you know, would that make us hypocrites, you know, when I, I couldn't live with myself, calling myself a Satanist. And saying that, you know, the seven fundamental tenants are things that are deeply held beliefs of mine, without actually putting those beliefs in action. And that includes the action that is going to be not, you know, it's not going to be glorious, it's going to be hard, it is going to involve a lot of difficulty a lot of time. And it's not going to be the, it's not going to be flashy, or sexy, or anything like that. But it's worth doing. And that, to me, is an obligation I have as a Satanists to do, I'm not going to have any legacy to speak of, meaning that, you know, I'll never have children, I'll never, I mean, once I'm dead and gone, I'll be done gone forever. You know, one of the things one of the legacies that I want to have one of the little, tiniest, little, little fingerprints on this world I want to make is the knowledge going into my grave that I did everything I could to best, you know, exemplify and live, the values of which I have, which I have fully embraced, you know, the fact that when I discovered Satanism, and when I, I, when I realized that I was a Satanist, that came with an obligation that I hold on myself, that, you know, these deeply held values of mine need to be not only just what I what I think and the things that go on in my head, but the actions that I take in my daily life. And if that means that I have some little part of the fight that starts and ends after my lifetime, but at least it gets started. Now. You know, I, you know, I that's the kind of legacy I want, whether anyone remembers my name or not, doesn't matter. But you know, I'll go into the grave knowing that that's what I did, and that I didn't, that I didn't violate my own values for the sake of ease for the sake of the easy life for the sake of not being bothered. For the sake of just, you know, not wanting to put in the effort. So yeah, we'll see. We'll see how that goes. I'm probably not great, but I've come to terms with it. You know,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:05
I think that's a great note to end on. should at least fly. That's always a pleasure.

Chalice Blythe 1:04:10
Always a pleasure. Thank you so much for talking to me and hearing me rant and rave.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:14
You are so good at ranting and raving. And as always, you're always welcome back. It's nice to it's it's nice to talk to you outside of a meeting. It feels like Yeah, it feels like all Satanists do is have meetings. It's like Jesus Christ. I feel like I'm a Presbyterian. Again, if there's one thing that Presbyterians and Satanists have in common, it is way too many fucking meetings. Yeah,

Chalice Blythe 1:04:39
we're the ones that were the ones that funded zoom throughout the pandemic, that's for sure. Actually, we were the ones that kept it alive pre pandemic.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:47
That's true. Very, very true. All right. Well, I will I will talk to you soon. And this has been great. All right. That is it for this show. The theme song is Wild buy eleventy seven you can find it on iTunes, Spotify or wherever you listen to music. The show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long and it is a production of rock candy recordings, as always Hail Satan, Satan, and thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-ST Steve Hill FINALab1ld

2022-10-11T08:06:13Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

ST_Steve_Hill_FINALab1ld
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, fucking, satanism, talk, fuck, black, worked, podcast, shit, comedy, los angeles county, life, house, rock candy, satan, check, sheriff, satanists, satanic, home

00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast. Hey guys, my name is Matt Langston. I am a music producer, a mix engineer and an avid unicorn enthusiast and I would like to invite you over to my podcast 11 D live on eleventy life we get to talk to your favorite artists, producers and creators about what makes them tick. We take deep dives into where they get their juiciest inspirations from and how they keep from being cynical about all of it. We even get to pull back the curtain on my band eleventy seven and share some fun insider tips and tricks for our fellow bandmates and creators out there so be sure to check out eleventy life right here on the rock candy Podcast Network and wherever you get your favorite shows.

01:13
You This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com. In this episode, I speak with comedian satanist and former senatorial candidate Steve Hill, we discuss his journey to Satanism, the prison system racism and so much more. But before we get to that, I have to thank my patrons my patrons are my personal lords and saviors and they are ensuring the long life of my work for just $3 a month you get access to my patrons only podcast house of heretics which I do with my co host and friend Timothy McPherson who is a Salvation Army officer turned Christian heretic if you are interested in joining my Patreon, you can just go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long there is also a link in the show notes. So for this week, I have to thank George Sawyer, thank you so much, George, I truly could not do this without you. You are ensuring the long life of my work and that I can bring you interesting content on the blog and podcast every single week. Now if you're listening to this and you are unable to financially support the show, that is completely okay. I understand. Life is hard right now, the economy is still struggling due to COVID. And I really need you to take care of yourself and your family first and foremost. So if that's the position that you're in, but you still want to support my work, one of the best ways is to just subscribe to the show. Wherever you're listening. The more subscriptions be at Spotify, Google podcasts, Apple podcasts, wherever the more subscriptions the more our algorithmic overlords recommend the show to others and helps to grow the show. Another fantastic way to support the show is to just leave a five star review on Apple podcasts. So here is one review from a listener named scalding scalding says a wonderful podcast. As a newcomer to Satanism, I find this podcast to be an amazing resource. The interviews with the leaders in the community are a great resource and fun to listen to. But beyond that, I find that his guests often challenge my worldview and lead me to re evaluate my positions the recent episode on free speech as a particular example, that really challenged a viewpoint that I took for granted, which I love. I absolutely love this review because that is totally what these conversations are for very often. I don't agree with my guests. The point is to have long form in depth conversations that challenge us to think more deeply to be more mature and thought out so that we can be better people. So this is exactly the kind of review that I love reading. So if you leave a review for the show, I will absolutely read it at the top of the show. I also invite you bla bla bla bla bla fuck, check, check, check. Hey, hey, hey Dante, this is going to be miserable to edit I'm so sorry. Okay. If Dante leaves this in he is he is the editor and producer for the show. So if you take the time to leave a five star review for the show on Apple podcasts, I will read it on the show as thanks. I also have to give a big shout out to my Discord server. Most of the conversation about my work happens on Discord there is a link in the show notes there is new conversation happening there every single day. It is a fantastic little community. So if you are A heathen, a heretic, an atheist, a non theist, a Satanist, or a progressive Christian, or just someone curious about the types of conversations that I have on the show, please come join in the fun, it is a fantastic little community. And finally, if you love the work that I do on this show, you will also love the satanic temple.tv, which is one of the sponsors for Sacred tension. They have all kinds of content on this streaming platform. They have documentaries, live streams, movie nights, rituals, music, all kinds of stuff to edify you about Satanism and ritual. So if you're into that, please go to the satanic temple.tv. And at checkout, use my promo code sacred tension all caps, no space, and you will get one month free. All right, well, all of that finally, out of the way, I am delighted to welcome Steve Hill to the podcast. Steve Hill. Welcome to the show.

06:00
Thank you. And thanks for the invite to being here.

06:04
Yeah, it's, it's a pleasure to talk to you. So you know, I reached out to my audience because I was planning another round of episodes, I record all my episodes in batches. And I was like, hey, so who should I interview next? And everyone was like Steve Hill, everyone. Everyone wanted you on the show. So I really, yeah, so I really appreciate you

06:31
being chased by the police.

06:32
Oh, no, I hope? I hope not.

06:37
No, I got I got a thing with the police right now.

06:39
So let's talk. So let's talk about that. And before we do, just tell my audience some about who you are and what you do. All right,

06:46
man, who I am. My name is Steve Hill. I was born on the north side of St. Louis in the summer of 1961, about two weeks after President Barack Obama born to a ghetto dirt poor, you know, I learned kind of from my father and big brothers, they were all military men. And you know, I got I got men in my family who have fought, you know, documented all the way back to the Civil War. So my father fought in World War Two, my brother thought Vietnam, we got another brother that retired US Marine and me myself, I spent about proximately, six years as a United States Marine. Okay. had little situation happened in the Marine Corps. And, and I just told them, you know, it just led me to just let me out, you know, and one of my commanding generals, was the one that suggested it, because they the Marine Corps had fucked up so bad with me, they were like, you want to get out? I was like, Yeah, okay, because you guys are kind of fucking weird. So anyways, I went to LA worked in aerospace worked as a CNC aerospace machines, which is a computer numerical control machine is made really, really precise parts as it relates to application on usually to stealth fighters and the jet fighters, the F two and all kinds of, you know, anyway, it was a it was kind of a stressful job because of the exotic metals we worked with, like titanium, and, you know, really these weird metals. But anyway, I kind of got bored with that, you know, making these inanimate objects for and I thought I would do something a little bit more exciting. So I went to prison for 10 years as an officer. Don't get it fucking twisted, folks. Yeah, I worked in two different maximum security prisons. One being CCI, which is California Correctional Institution attach B and worked at CSP lac, which is California State Prison, Los Angeles County, the only state prison within the bounds of Los Angeles County, okay. Had enough of that after about 10 years. I just, I just couldn't, I couldn't do it anymore. Got into a little situation with administration. And I had to go because I kind of caught them in a fucked up situation. I just decided to take an early retirement and they were like, Would you like to retire? Like, yeah, so Anyway, anyway, so I've been retired for like 20 years now. After that, I went, you know, I wanted to do something a little bit more positive, maybe something with kids, you know, something, you know, working with the children trying to straighten them out. So I went and worked as campus security for two middle schools in my area, and that was kind of like working at the prison, but at the prison, I didn't have to worry about getting shot. I mean, these schools are fucked up. And that's where we need to be putting our money into, you know, educating our children and making sure everybody got a good shot at the American dream and future and all of that. At this point. I was like, okay, you know, I'm not getting any younger, I need to do something to make some money. You know, it's time you know, it's time to rubber rubber meets the road. It's time to, you know, bring home the bacon, make some little, you know, and it really doesn't give me any amount of pleasure to, you know, admit this, but I had to go into a life of crime. Yeah, I went into real estate

10:13
that is a life. That is a life of crime.

10:16
Yeah, really? Let me tell you, if you only knew what I fucking knew, I mean, you hope this isn't a Sunday show?

10:24
No, we don't do show on Sunday shows around here. 18 and over,

10:27
this might get a little little of it. Yeah, man. So I opened up that very real estate appraisal in 2004, about three years before the Oh, mortgage meltdown happened, great recession, saw a lot of people lose their houses saw a lot of kids get uprooted from their foundational structure, which is the home and you know, wind up living with cousins and uncles and perverts and freaks. And who knows that who the kids get exposed to in those stressful circumstances where, you know, people are basically walking away from their homes and losing their homes in a stressful period in a kid's life. And, you know, I think about I think about that all the time that no one went to jail for No, you know, none of the real criminals, none of the real actors of the mortgage meltdown, financial crime, none of them went to prison. And, you know, I think back to how I feel so uncomfortable working in maximum security prison, and just seeing the enormous amount of black men behind bars. It is like, it's jaw is jaw dropping, jaw dropping, you know, I stood there on days, you know, doing mil release, you know, maybe C three C blah, Charlie blah, and you crack the doors to self control booth to open the doors and man for the next 15 minutes, you can see nothing but brothers walking out front of the sales or cellblock door, you know, it wears on you after a while, because that's where you learned that just inherently Something must be wrong with this fucking system for so many, you know, and then you start you know, if you know history, and you start thinking that too, you know, how do we get here? How, you know what, why us why. And you think about, you know, 1863 Masturbation proclamation, you think about 1865, outright abolishment of slavery, then you think about all of that time period in between the 60s, you know, we had the Civil Rights Act, and we had some real legislation and voters rights actions in 68, where they supposedly stopped the red line, and we could live wherever we wanted to, but I think that's actually still going on. But if you think about it, in that context, and he started linking history up together, and you see you got these, you know, you got to have these ghettos of black people where they've had, you know, so much lack of educational opportunities, upward mobility, you know, into the, you know, because you're basically trapping people into ghettos where there's no economic tax base to support the community, you know, that and that a direct adverse effect on public schools, you know, and then you throw people in there with no job, no money, no hope. But are you gonna do they're gonna feed on each other, like, animals? Just shit trying to survive? Yeah. Feeling all of that element that this country produces?

13:25
And then and then blame? Well, well, I was gonna say, and then blame the people for how they behave when it was the systemic realities that pushed them to that situation in the first place. Yeah, yeah,

13:39
exactly. Exactly. It's like, how many times can one group of people be victimized? Yep. And it's, it gets kind of redundant, especially every time you walk out, you fuck in front door, your skin is black. It's like, oh, you know, how am I gonna maneuver through the day? That's, you know, that's what I think about when I leave, leave the house. But yeah, it's, uh, until until everybody gets, you know, learn history and start applying, you know, common sense and logic and maybe gain some compassion and a little empathy and love and you know, everything that's a trip attributed to humans in a Christian nation. You know, they say it's a Christian nation, but I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if those Christians went to Africa and picked up more Christians and we're all God's children. I mean, all of that bullshit is just asinine to me. Yeah. How people can can can live their lives by some ancient comic book. It's absolutely mind boggling. Yeah. But anyways, in 2009 amount of time, Obama became active actively known on the national stage. I remember listening to him in I think 84 to DC convention in LA where I just happened to be freshly out of the Marine Corps and Be able to now really follow local politics. I've been a political junkie, all my life political nerd, I it was kind of inspiring. I was like, Wow, this brother can run for president I can at least say something about our society by telling a couple fucking jokes. You know, even though I am inherently a shy person, really, really just shy us to be so I do comedy, you know, part time now anyway, because COVID Still, we're still waiting to open the venue's up. And I have a new venue. I have a new show I'll be doing locally here in town, probably once a week, every Friday night, palm dz, California. I started telling first I started really just focusing on political humor. And I was basically discriminated against by a black church, which really fucking pissed me off. Because nobody was everyone was scared to touch him. I went to all the right people to complain. And they were like, Oh, you mad at the black church? You know, we can't get off the black church. We need to vote. So yeah. And so I kind of at my comedy towards religion. Welcome, everybody. You know, once you once you got, you're telling jokes against the church, everybody's included. Now you know what I mean? So start telling jokes, started telling secular jokes and started like going to working at the conferences and traveling here. They got one of my first biggest shows was for Edwina Rogers in the Secular Coalition. They're a group in DC, you know, did American Atheists a couple of times, lot of humanist stuff, especially on on the west coasts, Washington, San Diego, you know, this traveling kind of part time? Not really, you know, and of course, performing in the clubs in Hollywood and Los Angeles. That's, that's fine. That's where That's where comedy really gets good. Because you scare the shit out of southern people. When a black guy started saying fuck Jesus, and yeah, yeah. I mean, everybody. I mean, I've seen people put the drink down. They joke like, Well, what did he just say? Yes, so I'm just waiting for these clubs. When I'm gonna be doing a comedy special. It's gonna knock the ears off for some folks. Amazing. Love to see that people really need to hear you know, we don't have any comedians that I see that really talking about what the fuck is going on. But people need to hear right about now.

17:29
And what what are those things in your mind? What do people need? What do people need to hear? To hear? First thing

17:35
people need to recognize the black man's history in America? You know, we are the people that doubt he's talking about immigrants, immigrants, immigrants, think about think about attaching another word in front of the word immigrant think about this one word, putting this word in front of immigrants in voluntary. We are the only people who are involuntary immigrants. What fourth the actions of other people 6019 And the money and wealth that could be generated by enslaving another group of people, even though you're Christians, and we're all God's children, you go over and pick up humans brutalized and terrorize them. I mean, this this ship wasn't you know, things are now being caught on tape and smartphones a ship could you imagine a slave having a fucking iPhone. And, you know, recording some of the shit that had to be seen, you know, the brutality, the medical experiments, where people come all from all over the world and experiment on slaves in America, because they could I mean, there's got to be some documentation on that. I bet some people, some people from other countries paid to come and experiment on slaves. I mean, we don't know. We'll never know. I mean, I got people, you know, in my family, Mississippi, people who left home and never came back. Nobody ever heard from again, my mother's Uncle, let's come. never came back. Imagine that. I mean, in Mississippi, you pretty much know that there was some foul play involved. Nobody ever talked about it. Really. The white people talked about it. Black people didn't talk about it. So yeah, it's a that's one of the things first people need to learn history. Once you learn history, if you are half as decent human being with a fucking loving heart and a fucking brain that has the mere capacity for any amount of critical thinking and applying logic and fucking common sense to your life to your fellow humans. The rest should kind of fall in place. The reparations should fall in place. You know, because this white people lose their fucking mind. You start talking about giving black people money. Oh, no, Jesus.

19:51
And the thing is, you know, you're you're talking about history here. I I don't know how much it seems. Uh, in that this isn't just history this is very very recent history like incredibly recent history you know, I'm I'm this is a whole process that I've gone through, because you know, I I'm a clueless white gay bro. And it's taken me a long time to realize this stuff and I it's like I always knew the history but it was always almost it was almost like this alternate universe that never felt like it impacted my life in any significant way. And so even though I knew that the history was was recent, it never felt recent it was like there is a buffer and the realization of no The this is recent history that impacts untold millions of people to this day in ways that will continue to echo for generations. And for so many white people like me, there's this understanding that it's history, but it feels almost like a history from an alternate dimension and, and getting to bridge that gap. I don't know. Does that make any sense? What I'm saying? Yeah,

21:14
basic. Basically, what you just told me was you live in a bubble and you're starting to fucking realize it.

21:20
Exactly. Yeah. No, I mean, I love it the widest

21:23
part of this exactly. Hey, man. That's why I want to try to do this with comedy. I think I can sneak inside some of those bubbles. Good burst, fuckers Good. Get people to think a little bit bigger and live outside your bubble and have compassion and think from another person's perspective. If you know you want to be trapped with living your life like that, you know?

21:49
Yeah, absolutely. So when we were exchanging messages discussing what we want to talk about, one thing that you really emphasized was police reform. Talk about that. Talk about that

22:00
these motherfuckers right now. Right now I have legal action against Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department due to an incident of what I call bullied. I was bullied by a Los Angeles County Sheriff's deputy what what it was he came and paid me a home visit. I mean, this is typical cop shit out, you know, I'm gonna pay you a visit. You know, this is he tried to turn one of those on me. You know, when you were a bad for 10 years, you know, you pay inmates sale a visit. You know, you go up you know they smart off or say something fucked up to you like, okay, you know, you stay calm and pay yourself visit later on. And now they know that they're getting ready to get a cell inspection today rooms going to be shut down. All inmates are going to be pissed off at them. And we get to go and toss their cell. I mean, they're all they sit around looking at it going all that personal shit. And then they got to go and clean our house backup. And I think this cop came to my house calling himself gonna pay me a visit. But it was like I mentioned before I'm in real estate, I appraise real estate I don't sell real estate lot of people get get those two confused. I give an opinion of value. That's what my job is to give an opinion of value of property. Anyways, one morning I was shooting cops in East Lancaster. That's Neil Valley, North Los Angeles County. And I went down this one street, it was a cul de sac street. So I had to go in and turn around in the coldest sack and come back out. And there was a guy out on the right hand side, there was the first thing I remember because we shooting cops. Were you a black man with a camera. I learned real quick, too. Don't let nobody see you fucking raise the camera. So I employed my regular sneaky techniques of putting my you know, top of my hand over the steering wheel and shooting underneath my arm to shoot the house. I can do it with pretty pretty great accuracy now. But anyways, I went and shot cops over in East Lancaster. And that took about 3040 minutes have had to be back home to meet the air conditioner repair guy. So I rushed back home got there before he got there. We started looking at the air conditioning. So we both walk outside because we see a police car cruise by and I'm like, That's unusual. You know, I live in a relatively exclusive neighborhood that has a view of the city and you can see the lake and you know, nice, nice piece of property really kind of exclusive. And we you know, we went out further to see what was going on. And by the time we got to, you know, to the top of my driveway and through the gate, this cop that turned his car vehicle around and was getting out of his car walking towards me. And I'm like, Why is he here? And he walks up and he asked me to quiet So, where were you about 3040 minutes ago? And what were you doing there? And I was like that, at that point, I took my camera out, thankfully, and said, Wait a minute, let me get a shot at you. Because nobody's gonna believe this shit. And I snap a picture of them. I did. It was actually a live photo on my iPhone. So you can hear actually, like two seconds of me, you know, telling him wait, nobody's gonna believe this. It's kind of like a short two second video clip. And man, I kind of you know, tell him about who I am. And did you read my place? Because he had to read my plate, because my plates have a clearance on him from the Department of Corrections. And he knew that I was affiliated with the Department of Corrections. I don't know if he thought I was a fucking dangerous inmate or what but nothing stopped him from coming to my house. And, you know, kind of humiliating, you know, somebody asked me you about, you know, and I asked him, Did someone call the police on me? And he said, No, no, I said, so nobody called the police on me. Yeah, I think his neighbor saw my license plate, which reads for Satan.

26:13
Numeric symbol for people, people that are friends with me on Facebook. They know I post sometimes, yeah, but I think that license plate just ate somebody the fuck up. And because his house was the one I took a picture of, he went and told him Hey, that guy with forsaken place, took a picture of your house or was looking at your house. I know he didn't see me to the picture, but I was just looking at his house because I'm a fucking appraiser. And I need to check out the value influencing characteristics of this houses, if he has any reason modernizations, anything that's atypical or customized from the rest of the houses. And he had just a big fucking tract home fucking 3500 square feet, probably five plus three, with granite countertops, tile flooring, and some type of vinyl linoleum bullshit in the bathroom anyway. big truck house McMansions is what we call Yep. Now the nerve of him coming from a neighborhood like that getting all of my input my private information to fucking chuck me down like a runaway slave and then come up to my house later going, why were you in my neighborhood? That was a bully move. And then this this is where I really got angry. I was a fucking candidate for state senate at the time. I just wanted to go and talk to the sheriff say hey man, train your officers don't be having come to my house and you know off the record and shit. He ignored me. So I went out to a meeting that he was at. I think the day after trying to talk to him I recorded part of it on tape. He asked if anybody have a problem with the sheriff. This is Catherine Schaffer prom devastation. I raised my hand yeah problem something some he told me he directed me to a website and one of my friends couldn't believe that she was behind me when somebody had to go to a website you said right here in front of you. And I was just like basically totally ignoring him. So now it's like Okay, fuck I got no choice I gotta go file file you know something official documentation with the sheriff's and and they did some bullshit scam. You know, I hung up on him. I told him I'm gonna get an attorney because they were lying to me and I knew they were lying to me. So now I've got a legal case. $1.1 million. I've got a fucking any attorney that as simple as this case is he has fucked it up just because he's trying to get more money out of me. I mean, I feel this motherfucker is Judas No, I'm fighting him and the fucking Sheriff's Department at the same time. But yeah, I mean politics disciple is coming up again. Now every fucking amazing a bullshit you not everybody wants Satan's endorsement.

28:52
What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that?

28:54
I stay in the political with people, you know, from running for office. I know all the politicians, I can fucking get on the phone with every elected official, you know, assembly center. And even Mike Garcia is as from Washington, he lives down in South Korea, but I you know, we all talk. As far as I'm concerned, we're all friends. Because, you know, we're all kind of like trying to do something for the fucking community. So, you know, it's all of these motherfuckers run like sheep. Like, and that's, that's another fucking problem in this country have never deal with because we've got to find a way to cleave our politics, from our law enforcement. Yeah, they're closely related. It's a overfamiliarity of a relationship between politics because they can say nothing wrong because they lose support of the unions and the police and they lose all that patriotic bullshit they be yakking about in their freedoms and live in their religious liberty and Bill but they don't think about nobody else's. You know, it's fucking amazing. If you think about it, man, but if I got fired all my friends, I will.

30:04
Absolutely. And I think what I'm hearing you say is that there is basically like this militarized occupation of black communities by the police in America. And you know, when this police officer came to your house to check it out, it's a it is a form of like bullying and like a militarized occupation of an entire group of people in our country. And what do you want people who who don't understand the situation to know about it? What do you want people to know about what's wrong? And how to fix it?

30:38
Well, what's what's wrong? Is the over policing of black people. Yeah, you know, it's like, it's almost like a no, no lose situation for everyone involved. Because, you know, the cops, they, they always get these people from the military. And trust me, I know this one. I know this one from being a Marine and a peace officer. It's a certain group of people in this country, they, you know, they see themselves as protectors of this nation. It's almost like some like fucking some Christian organization. It's a it's a base core group, though. Just think Trump supporters just think whoever those people,

31:17
it's like a cult. It's like, it's like a religious cult almost, that attracts people who self select for like radical ideology and narcissism and sociopathy.

31:28
Yeah, they, they have their own ideology, their own way of fucking thinking. And then once they tie the Bible to it, it's like, you can't shake them off of it. And like you say, some of the characteristics are just like cult figures. I mean, look at look at black people in religion. You tell me that's, that's, that is definitely Stockholm syndrome, and I think readopted their religion as a conduit for survival. Yeah, you know, it's like fucking pleading with people, like, stop killing as well. We'll take your God if you could just stop killing us. But I don't know. It's, it's a lot. You know, what I suggest how to how to fix it, man. It's so complicated if people just want to remain willfully ignorant about how we got here. Like, how the fuck did we get here? And, you know, I know a lot of people think that literally, some figuratively but it's like, how do we get to where we are now, in 2021? How did we get here? Everybody needs to think about that. You know, and, you know, if it wasn't for the good white people, if it wasn't for the good white people in this country, and those that are ones I see as patriots, those ones that are they know is wrong, and they're actually helping us, you know, they they've been dying, right along with us. You know, you look at the abolitionist, you're looking at all the people who were against slavery and who helped them, you know, yeah, it's a, it's a long list.

32:56
That's how I feel about the straight allies as well, who've really, you know, it's like the gay community and the trans community. We need people of privilege to help us and to put their lives on the line as well. Yeah, I guess what I'm hearing you say, yeah.

33:12
Just to let you know, man, I got a gay daughter.

33:15
That's fantastic. Yeah, man. I

33:17
got a story. I got a story that goes with that, because I think she was still in. I think she was still in high school. I know she wasn't 18 yet. And her at the time my ex wife lived in content. And I'm in North LA County. Compton is a little south east of downtown anyways, her mother somehow discovered that she was gay. I think I knew she was gay since she was around four or five because she just looked awkward his fucking dress but her mom discovered that she was gay by going on a computer or something and she kicked her out of the house right there on the spot man. I was like I couldn't believe it. I was like you fucking in the suit you kick your own daughter out the house because she's gay. And you know if you can hate her ex wife any greater I think I found that that level you know, I got into car went down and we picked her up you know brought her to live with us eventually though. She you know, she reconcile with her mother. Her mother fucking grew up in the mind. And now they live together in in Atlanta. But yeah, I got I got joke's on the whole LBGT community. She's She's part of it. Yeah, that's, that's where my comedy special. You'll hear some LBGTQ

34:31
I can't wait. By the way, will there be any filmed versions of your comedy like it? Will it be put up on YouTube or anywhere where

34:40
we're searching? We're searching for a platform now. We're thinking about putting on TSDS platform first.

34:48
Yeah. Oh, that would be that'd be awesome. By the way, little infomercial here dear audience this show is sponsored by tst. TV and you can get one month free by using my promo code sacred tension all caps, no space at knockout. Okay done. Carry on we love you know, and for people who don't know Doug, aka Lucien Lucien Greaves, how did how did you and Doug meet? Hey, I

35:16
was at a conference of performing comedy. It was in my hometown of St. Louis check to check the murder rates in St. Louis constantly for the last 30 years. I think we're always wanting to anyways, I had a nephew that was murdered there a couple of years ago. It's like, the horrible most worse, Donald Trump would probably even go as far as calling it a shithole city that Northside but anyway, that's a that's, that's a whole different story. But we were at a conference there and Doug was speaking, he was given a presentation and we had a mutual friend named Nikki. She, she, you know, she came to me like Steve, you should be a Satanist. You should be. Come on. And, you know, I immediately started researching it. And she took Doug and I on a tour of Ferguson and you know, after after to look at the aftermath of the protest. Yeah. And, you know, I'm talking to him like Nikki Damn, and then you'll understand she said, I'm already black. I don't need no extra baggage. Going around that segment. Yeah, I was like, fuck it. I fuck it. Okay, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be in segments. I'm gonna be a black segments. Because I actually, you know, I talked to I think it's fucking brilliant though, that you? Because I'm a political junkie. Yeah, I think it's fucking brilliant that you actually use the system that is in place, the court system to, you know, declare us religion and fucking get get fucking up pimp status where you don't pay no taxes. You know, I was telling them, You know, I like to shit they were doing in Oklahoma and Arkansas and even Mississippi. Yeah. So I became the same as me. When we came, I came back and kind of help helped. The other. I think it was three people there that were starting a tsp chapter LA. Yeah, we started doing that and start doing things and having rituals. And yeah, it was it was a it was great. But that's how we that's how we met. Man. That's awesome. Come out to my house to visit and we've gone. I had to speak at a conference in Sacramento. He went up there with me and talk to people, you know, hung out. Yeah. I think he likes getting away from that East Coast to just come out to the West Coast.

37:22
I'm sure he does. Yeah. And he's, he's a great guy.

37:25
Yes. Yeah. I wouldn't want to be anyplace else. This is this is my heaven. That's Satanists. And heaven. Heaven. I'm in heaven now.

37:35
So since we're talking about Satanism, and we have a few minutes left, so I sent out a question on my Discord server for people who might want to ask you questions. And one question that I did get, is that just Just what are you? What are your thoughts about Satanism? In general, it's, it seems like a very white culture and what what are your thoughts on that? And honestly, it's been one of my big concerns because I am part of the ordination Council for the Satanic Temple and I want the temple to I want the temple and I want Satanism as a whole to push back against the segregation of our culture. Right and and push back against the white supremacy of our culture. And so I just I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on all

38:23
of that. Okay, we probably got to get ready to go extra extra

38:28
over that is fine with me.

38:32
But But yeah, man, listen, man, I think that's why I don't know that Doug and I used to have I used to have a better relationship. I used to call him he answered the phone I used to text him he asked me to text but now it's like that. But I you know, I keep telling him and I was preaching this when we were doing TST chapter in LA I was like hey man, let's Let's not turn this into something to where you know let's let's let's mainstream this more to where we don't frighten off people of color. And let's get this to where this shit looks like America. Yeah, you know I mean, I understand the whole the whole God thing and the rituals and the bloodletting and but mine is a little bit more more deeper than this I want I want I want this to be like a coalition while the voiceless people who haven't had a fucking voice and as a as a black atheists, secular satanic humanists. It's like, you know, nobody speaking for me. Could you fucking Name a famous black atheists that will come out and just yeah, I'm fucking atheists, who has it named a movie that motherfucker plays in name the team he plays on name the last city drop, nobody talks for us. You go fucking Sirius satellite radio. They got all these fucking Christian stations, not one fucking secular fucking atheist station whatsoever. You know, and I talked to my friend Dave Silverman about that. It's like, hey, why don't you guys try to make a bigger Press? So maybe we won't feel like we just a bunch of rejected idiots who don't have a God like Why aren't you guys pushing more? So I'm gonna drop this I'm gonna I'm gonna drop this comedy special on on America and see what fucking people think after they hear what I got to say brilliant. Yeah,

40:17
I I hear you and it's something that that does concern me in the satanic community and how do you how do you navigate that as a man who is black and also a Satanist? While it seems like just about all the satanists around us around you are white what does that what does that mean for you?

40:39
I think I'm think I'm winning. I'm think I'm winning people over especially locally, I think I think I'm, you know, starting to see past the imagery, and you know, that actually kind of gaslighting they look and they say, Wait, you know, they see other shit did I do, you know, like, run for office and be outspoken and speak the truth to power and they kind of like, you know, we understand, you know, I still have some people who are scared as fuck, like, they actually think, you know, I worship the devil, which is like, Are you fucking retarded? You know, I'm a different kind of Satanists. Shit. I just got one tenant, you know, the temple has seven. Yes. No, I like that. I like the fourth window where it says fuck you if I offend you? I got that. Right. And if you fuck with my right, your right will be taken. Yeah. I love

41:35
the fourth for the fourth 10 It is one of my favorites. For sure.

41:38
Yeah, let's see. I'm the kind of savings I got is 120 That's Don't be an asshole. There you go. You live by that and just let fucking everybody else live. Don't fuck our children don't hurt animals. And protect the fucking Earth and educate these kids. Thank you fucking sadness. And I know millions of these motherfuckers I know millions of Satanists. They're out there but they just haven't learned how to you know, shake, shake the way they've been conditioned to

42:05
think and you know, I completely agree with with what you were just saying about how Satanism should be a broad coalition if Satanism is about the icon of the outsider which for me that's what Satanism is. It is about the underground Yeah, it's about the fallen angel the demonized yeah and and you know and so for me like my Satan is super fucking queer because I was demonized. I was demonized. Yes, he should be I was demonized my entire life for you know, I was raised in the conservative Christian world demonized for being gay and so for, for me, Satan is the icon of the outsider, whoever the oppressed whoever the marginalized whoever the outsider is, that is what Satan is for. And so because of that, I really want to see Satanism grow beyond just being a white Fedora tipping edge Lord religion you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I really want it to grow beyond that.

43:07
Yeah, I'm going to do it I'm gonna I'm gonna keep pushing man I'm gonna keep going it's gonna be a it's gonna be a lot though when this when this comedy special comes out I'm going I'm going full Satan.

43:18
Good. I can't wait and maybe when it comes out you can come back and we can talk about it again. That'd be awesome.

43:25
For sure for sure you will have you'll have first crack awesome

43:29
All right, I think we've reached our time is there anything else you want to add? Man I

43:32
just like to like to ask everybody especially out there and social media and Facebook. I don't I don't tweet much because my hands are so damn big. You know I'm six foot seven and I you know, I grew up with fucking watermelon. So phones are not like my favorite. No Sure. You know Facebook is kind of cool, but you know just just imagine fucking trying to type shit on a postage stamp. That's me. So yeah, I like Instagram a lot. I'm there so Steve at Steve Hill comic if every if everyone can go there and on Facebook I don't care what city you're in and I don't care you know what geographical location you're at please everybody when you see a Friends of TST group like that group that those groups linked us all together

44:24
yes absolutely

44:24
we can we can all simultaneously know what the fuck is going on so we should we should all any anything satanic man I've got it on my social media and you know that's a let's let's use this platform let's let's use media to unite like like the rest of the world has done so. Everybody just connect if you're a Satanism and you understand this shit, and you're not racist, unite like those groups go to those pages.

44:54
I think that's great. And I will put your handles your your Instagram and Facebook account. It's in my in the show notes for this episode so people can check out the Twitter too. Okay, I'll put Twitter in there as

45:07
well. Yeah, I think it's black Satan 4666 or something like that. Brilliant.

45:11
All right. Okay, well, Steve Hill it's been a pleasure. You're welcome back anytime

45:16
beautiful man. It's been a good time talking with you as well.

45:19
All right, well, that is it for this show. The music is by the jelly rocks and eleventy seven. You can find them on iTunes, Spotify or wherever you listen to music. This show is written produced and edited by me and Dante salmoni and is a production of rock candy recording as always Hail Satan and thanks for listening. More shows like this one visit rock candy recordings.com

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STSisterZitherMonastacism

2022-10-11T08:06:13Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STSisterZitherMonastacism
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
monasticism, practice, satanic, people, tst, monastic, ritual, guru, contemplative, community, satanism, christian, world, satanist, boundary, anti, meditation, life, explore, feel
SPEAKERS
Stephen Bradford Long, Sister Zither

Stephen Bradford Long 00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast this is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long, and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com. All right. As always, I have to thank my patrons before we get started. My patrons are my personal lords and saviors. This show is not possible without their help. So if you love this show, and the blog, if you look forward to sacred tension every single week, please consider joining their number by going to patreon.com. Forward slash Steven Bradford long, there's also a link in the show notes. You can buy me for just $1 a month. I'm a very, very cheap sell. But it helps enormously so if you have any spare cash, please throw it to your favorite podcaster. And so for this week, I have to thank Wednesday, Rach, Kane, Nevermore, Scott de nom and Van winter, I also have to say all of my patrons sound like magical creatures, which I really appreciate as well. So the more magical the name, the better. Of course, a lot of us are struggling financially. And you might just you might just not have the margin to be able to support a creator financially. And if that is the case, I completely understand. One of the best ways to support this show is to leave five stars on either Apple podcasts or Spotify, that tells our digital overlords that this show is worth sharing with others it will show up on their home screen the for you section on their podcast app. So please leave five stars and then on Apple podcasts, you can leave a little review. If you do I will read it on the show as thanks. And finally, this show is sponsored by the satanic temple.tv. The Satanic Temple has an amazingly creative and interesting community and on tst. TV, there is all kinds of stuff. There's a satanic puppet show called Dear Satan. There is a cooking show, there are featured length films about bizarre things like trepanation, and Anton LaVey, and Genesis P orage. And all kinds of weird countercultural underground stuff as well as occult rituals, live streams, et cetera, et cetera. So if all of that interests you, then please use my promo code, sacred tension all caps, no space at checkout, and you will get one month free. All right. I think that's it. Sister zither. Thank you so much for joining me. How are you?

Sister Zither 03:17
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm great. I'm really excited to talk to you.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:21
So you appeared on my radar because you are one of our ministers in the Satanic Temple. So you're a fellow minister, and you lead a service for I believe it was the Tuesday night services. And it was a fantastic service where you talked about your expertise, which is monasticism and combining monasticism with Satanism. And this is an area of particular passion. For me, I am incredibly passionate about contemplative life, in part because it has been a lifesaver for me. It has been one of the pillars of my well being and my functionality in the world is contemplative life. And I think it's really important for our very young community to explore this as well. So tell us some about who you are and what you do, and and your interest in this subject.

Sister Zither 04:23
Yeah. Well, I just also want to say, before I jump into that, I'm so glad that we have services the way we do, where it's panel based, it's community based, and we are a young religion and I think having these discussions will help all of this grow in really interesting ways. So I'm, I'm indeed a minister with tst. My academic background led me into interest in monasticism of my particular specialization is secular and sacred property law related to 13th century female mannequin communities. So that's really specific and also Um representations of monasticism and popular culture which is much more modern perspective because I have this sort of like very, very very dawn of Christian monasticism perspective, high medieval perspective in the contemporary popular culture perspective. I feel like I for me monasticism is a living, growing evolving thing. And going back to the service, I think I made a huge mistake that I talked about monasticism and not monasticism comes with the plural and there because I think because of the popular culture perspective, a lot of people come at the concept with very narrow ideas. If we think about like people who saw the Name of the Rose movie or something like that, when in reality and you'll know this, from your diverse origins of practice, there's many types of monasticism and many directions to go and we can create new things as we wish.

Stephen Bradford Long 05:57
So in as succinct way as possible, which might not be possible because as you just said, there are many monasticism but what is monasticism?

Sister Zither 06:10
So if I want to make a really quick overview of monasticism aims, you can have monastic which is based on solitude you can have opera tactile, which is setting apart oneself you can have an Anchorite which is withdrawn so just instead of set apart these are the ones that like close themselves into the wall or what have you. Yeah. Yeah, for example, for example, there's there's a lot of famous examples of that gets into really interesting concepts of mysticism that's rather practice rather definition center, biddick monastics are community based, which I think is a really interesting direction and aesthetic monasticism is based on discipline, which canner doesn't have to be separated and those are kind of the the European Christian models that we can draw from but there's really a lot more there's basically two vectors of defining monasticism one is some sort of withdrawal or renunciation and the other one is some sort of routinization or ritualization. So, some factor that separates a person and the other one that turns activities into intentional activities imbued with more meaning than normal. So this this kind of represents kind of is succinctly as possible the range that we can fill with different practices.

Stephen Bradford Long 07:42
I love this Okay, so it's like I've been playing Elden ring lately and so, this is you at the beginning of the Choose your character you can like choose you know, the prophet or the samurai or the or the astrologer or whatever Okay, so these this is your your character panel, these are your types of monastics and Pinna Moo during the service who is a friend of mine and very smart guy he summed up his understanding of monasticism I think as a discipline and a boundary and your thoughts...

Sister Zither 08:23
Yeah.

08:23
...well well in an in like a very just broad basic sense. A discipline so some for for some people that could be very intense like you know, there were the the monastics and and in Ireland who would you know, do you know pray while in bitter cold water and you know, just like brutal brutal stuff, basically like praying while waterboarding themselves and shit like that, right? So you have very brutal practices, and then you have less brutal, less abusive practices, like maybe meditating for a certain period of time each day, or doing some ascetic practice each day. And then you have a boundary which is kind of shutting, shutting off a part of the mundane world, the the every day, this thing that that maybe a lot of people take for granted that you are choosing to no longer take for granted and cut off from your life as a for a period of time or whatever. Would you say that that's accurate?

Sister Zither 09:34
Yeah, I think that's a perfectly fine like working definition. And I think the only thing I would maybe add to that is the sense of time a lot of people think that to be monastic or to engage in these intentional, separate activities needs to be a permanent commitment when actually a lot of practices in monasticism you can pop in and out for the weekend in Greek orthodoxy. Some of the monasteries allow like short term visitors, there's nothing wrong with having a monastic afternoon and then you return to the world afterwards. In no way decreases the level of the effect. It's rather fitting it into what works.

10:16
Now, so you covered kind of the range of monasticism within the Christian world. And in the West, is there a difference? Is there a different typology that you find in maybe Buddhist or Hindu traditions?

Sister Zither 10:32
Yeah, so the basic factors of withdrawal and ritualization. And these sorts of things taken in whatever term you like, those are kind of the basic factors that create the monastic as being someone separate from the other practitioners in society. I'm particularly interested within the range of tst. What do early forms of monasticism look alike in different religions? There are things that could be identified as something like a monastic adjacent practices in Jainism or even in Judaism. Buddhism obviously has monasticism and different types of European or Mediterranean monasticism has gone through multiple evolutions been praised and declared heretical. We also I don't think need to be at all limited to something that exists in our history. If you want to draw your monastic inspiration from anyone from the bene Jesuit, to the Sisters of perpetual indulgence, like anything. Sci Fi works, yes, it

11:40
does. Because so Satanism is an invented religion. I'm so glad you bring that up, because Satanism is an invented religion, and we can draw from all kinds of sources sent like, I have friends who draw from Anathem Neil Stevenson's novel, which is like, which is a book about like scientific, academic monasticism. So why through history, have people been drawn to monasticism? Why is this a drive that we see? Consistently? Maybe we don't see it consistently? Maybe there are cultures where it doesn't exist, but But why is it that this is something that that people are drawn to?

Sister Zither 12:20
That's a That's a great question. You know, I, I would like to just start with a caveat that I don't think religions need monasticism. I don't think TST needs monasticism. That said, it's a tool and a toolkit. And it could be an interesting tool to have around. And it will be an interesting tool for a very specific type of practitioner either for one part of their life for a limited trial, let's say, or something that they want to incorporate longer term as to a why I think that really depends on the type of practice they're trying to heighten and how they want to go about heightening that which has as many possible answers as there are people who would choose to engage. It's basically anyone who wants to do something to consciously intentionally heighten their practice for a certain amount of time through these concepts of delineation of space, be it physical or mental and some sort of intentionality and changing one's practice to highlight it, or to heighten it.

13:33
So would you say that people are people might be drawn to monasticism because they realize, oh, there's something I like I need to work on in my life, you know, I can't think life is too loud right now. Or here's this character flaw or something that I feel like me might be a character flaw, maybe I lose my mind and traffic or whatever it might be. And so I'm going to withdraw in a particular way to heighten my development in some way.

Sister Zither 14:05
And definitely, I'm a little bit afraid that American, I'm gonna I'm gonna bully American Society for a minute, at least.

Stephen Bradford Long 14:16
We deserve it.

Sister Zither 14:17
So have just that. There is a drive and I think a large pressure to improve oneself. And I'm making scare quotes here. This drive for improvement. And I do think when we're talking about monasticism, there are awful forms of monasticism terrible forms of monasticism. That should not be used as a model, I don't think and I think their natural outgrowth of just sacred anorexia for example, or the Crusades, for example, or the entire Jesuit order, for example. So there's extremely problematic behaviors that come out with a drive towards what is perceived as a better state or an improved state. And I would maybe even approach mountain monasticism in a way that does not aim for an improved state but just rather an increase of intentionality be that leading to improvement or you know, not like, if you need to take a nap, like take a nap, are you going to be an improved person afterwards? Maybe, maybe not. But maybe that nap was necessary maybe that meditation is necessary for that moment. But I I'm, I'm worried when we start looking at goals of improvement or things like that. Not saying that people can't use that obviously like tool in the toolkit. But I would I would hate to pigeonhole the whole concept of monasticism as being something towards improvement.

Stephen Bradford Long 15:51
I'm so glad you brought that up. Because you're exactly right, there's kind of this fetishizing of AAA, or an obsessive fixation on self improvement. And one of the forms of meditation, or one of the approaches to meditation that I have found particularly helpful lately is the direct approach of realizing, Oh, the nature of my consciousness is already open the nature of my consciousness, like right now, right here in this space, there is nothing to arrive to, there's nothing to arrive at, I am simply an open present being and I can be attentive to that or not the and so there isn't this, this striving there? Isn't this, this obsessive cleaning, striving, whatever, you know, that was the nature of my meditation for so long, especially when I was a yogi when I was in the yoga world, there is this, this this striving need to attain some kind of perfection. And it was very destructive. So I'm really glad that you bring that. I'm really glad that you bring that up. So now that we have done like a very cursory overview of monasticism, how might we explore this within a satanic context? And I asked that fully acknowledging that that is the most wide open question possible. Like, the options are endless. The options are, are, are infinite. But how? How might we begin to explore monasticism in a satanic setting?

Sister Zither 17:39
And of course, that's like the starting point, right? Which is one reason why I wanted to do the service and why I'm so excited to talk with you is, I think this is an idea that's going to just grow on its own. And I can't even I can't even comprehend the things that other people will come up with. And in that sense, I think the people experimenting and trying out things and seeing what works for them will be a fantastic experiment and late on what are possible practices. That is talking, it sounds like you, you have a very developed practice. And that's something that you've developed really over time. And as you've cultivated these things, and as as I've cultivated, cultivated my ideas and my notions about what is a practice or what's not. I've closed a lot of doors doing that. And I'm really excited to see what people come up with when they haven't gone through years of narrowing a path and closing doors and, and things like that.

Stephen Bradford Long 18:49
Yeah. So when you say closing doors, do you mean like limiting your the options in your own personal life or how to express monasticism? You're Yeah, okay.

Sister Zither 19:01
Yeah, no, that's it. Yeah, go ahead. No, no, no, no, please go on. I was I was just gonna say I've cultivated my own practice. And I've been thinking about it for the amount of years that I have been thinking about it. And I find it really hard, the further you walk down a certain Road, to remember the origin of the road or remember all the options that were there. I don't know if you have a similar experience, since you've also like invested massive time and energy into cultivating your practices. If someone brought you the idea of satanic sandcastle building to accept the inevitable demise of something, something it's a great idea satanic sand castle building to accept the impermanence of reality, but it might not be the first thing that comes to mind because you might be drawing more on the things you know, so well.

Stephen Bradford Long 19:51
Yeah, you're absolutely right about that. Because I would say that I'm actually very traditional. In my practice, you So I was previously a Christian, of course, and I would pray the rosary. And I would pray the Book of Common Prayer, which both of which I think are really extraordinary technologies in a specific sense, you know, and they aren't useful for everyone, but they were very useful for me. And so then when I became a Satanist, I was like, Okay, I'm going to take those types of practices and refashion them in my own way for my own satanic practice. And so I developed a what I call a satanic root document, which is like my own Book of Common Prayer. And I've been working on it for years. And then I touch base with that document every single day. But it's rooted in a very traditional concept, which is, you know, having like this core document, the Book of Common Prayer that you return to again and again and again and again every single day. And so something like satanic castle building would not even occur to me because I am very limited to a like modifying those traditional practices.

Sister Zither 21:07
There's, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But also when I'm when I'm thinking about the what, how are we going to start where to start? I feel totally unequipped to weigh in on that at all, just because I am so limited because I have hyper specialized and I'm just completely deformed in that way. So I'm, I'm only going to have bad answers, basically, because I can't have useful answers for that, because I don't have that freshness to the topic.

Stephen Bradford Long 21:42
And what does if I may ask, what does your own practice look like?

Sister Zither 21:46
Yeah, so I'm also tragically, I Okay, okay. It's not tragic, very traditional. I'm, I'm heavily influenced by things that already are things that have already been established within other monastic practices and things like that. All I've done is Satan ties them. And so, this, this includes doing away with chastity clearly. And

Stephen Bradford Long 22:14
the opposite of elder chastity. Actually, I don't I do not mean to derail you at all, but Sure, sure. My My partner is an ex Jesuit novice. And, and so you want to talk about the Jesuits and how fucked up the Jesuits are, we can definitely talk about that later. But anyway, I'm sorry, go Oh, man.

Sister Zither 22:37
Yeah, yeah. No, no, exactly. So like, the so for me coming also from an already established, like knowledge of monastic backgrounds. There's extra pleasure in inverting and blasphemy arising on top of that, which someone who, if they're not coming from a Christian background, or if they're not informed about that, there's no joy in being like, I'm going to be extra unchaste. Today, you know what I mean? Whereas like, that is a joy of practice, or, or this idea of, instead of doing the monastic reading and the monastic forms of submission, the opposite of that, to invert that very intentionally, and things like that. And I feel like that's not transferable to everyone. That's a very specific flavor that's built on my pleasure of knowing what I know about existing practices and knowing how much it would piss people off if they could see what I'm doing. So yeah, absolutely.

Stephen Bradford Long 23:39
I love that. And so we have kind of satanic inverted monasticism. And I think that's fabulous, kind of extending the black mass into life. In other words, which I think is really really cool as a concept. And it sounds like your expertise is in Christian monasticism, in particular. What is that relationship to Christianity like for you as a Satanist right now? I know, that's another very, very broad question. But, you know, I have a in let me just preface it. preface that question with my own experience, which is, I have this intense love hate relationship with Christianity. And I don't consider myself anti Christian, but I consider myself anti authoritarian. There's a lot of abuse of authoritarianism within Christianity, and yet, I am post Christian in the sense that I am deeply informed by Christian theology and my Christian background. So it's it's a weird, complicated relationship, and I'm just really curious about your relationship to Christianity as a Satanist who studies Christian monasticism.

Sister Zither 24:58
Yeah, yeah, and actually As my Satanism developed, I found my relationship to my work to be more and more fraught. I was actually working on a project to translate and annotate saints life. And I couldn't bring myself to finish it because I don't want to work with the people I would need to work with. In order to get a translated since I've published like I, there's this weird phenomenon, specifically in medieval studies, or in theological studies, where if you're a Christian working on a Christian topic, it's a non issue, it's just natural. It might even be to your benefit to be somewhat of an insider and formed or to be openly a believer, but should you be atheistic study and Christian topics, you're always kind of held at arm's length that you're not really handling it right? Or you're not being sensitive enough for blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And should one openly be satanic studying comparative religious aspects or something like that? Or is dare dare anyone who is not Christian study a Christian topic and comment on it. That would require Oh, well, you need a statement of positionality. And you need to be extremely clear about how you are biased in your presentation and Dadda Dadda Dadda. And this also brings up really interesting questions, we would like to get more scholarship on TST on satanic issues, it would be awesome to have a bit more scholarship done on and properly written up on satanic theology, modern or satanic theology. Can Satanists do that and be accepted by the Academy? Or is it going to come off as autoethnographic navel gazing? Will it be accepted, because Christians open and out and vocal Christians are very well accepted in that so for me, I found the more I go down satanic development, the more problematic I find it to do work, which this will sound very, very, maybe vengeful, but do work that works directly with, for example, monastic orders in a way that directly benefits monastic orders when I intend to critique them. And especially when I can openly act from my role,

Stephen Bradford Long 27:18
I feel like I have an experience that kind of rhymes with that, which is my experience in the yoga world were so glad that COVID came at the time that it did. That sounds terrible. But I was already planning my escape from the yoga world. Because more and more I felt like I was an enabler of the pseudoscience by working in various settings, where I did not feel like I could voice criticism, and not being able to voice criticism of say, anti Vax, or severity, pseudo scientific and, frankly, dangerous, fake cures, medical cures, kind of pseudo scientific thinking, which can really destroy people in the long run financially and physically. And just feeling like I was unable to, to criticize that in any meaningful way. I feel like if I could voice my opinion, I would have been content to remain in the yoga world. But I couldn't, I felt like I would have been heretical in a in a way that that just would have made it unsustainable. And so I ended up leaving now I am focusing much more on just seated meditation, a seated meditation practice, because frankly, I find the meditation world far more sound scientifically. I'm far more aligned with and that isn't necessarily true in every case, of course, but just far more aligned with the current science than the yoga world. And so I feel like I can, in my own way, relate to that fraught relationship with your field.

Sister Zither 29:17
Yeah, I think it's not limited to any one field. I think it's a larger phenomenon that comes from that Christian hegemony and that Christian like control of so many narratives, and it's so hard to push back on that it will be really interesting. There's only been a couple of calls for papers out for things related to modern Satanism. And with tentative prodding, I noticed that most scholars working on it are working on it because it's a niche topic that has not yet been thoroughly explored, but they are not insiders. And this is not saying that it's a benefit to be an insider. But if so much theological writing has been done by people from within a religion. I would really like to see how that develops when we're talking about, for example, tst, flavor, Satanism, if there's space for internal folks to voice their opinion, and how will that be treated after so many years of standardizing how we approach other religions and other religious research. And these are very vanilla, like calls for papers of like, Satanism and feminism and popular culture and things like that. And everyone's like, oh, cool, I'm gonna write about Satan commercials or something like that. And it's cool. It's just, it'll be interesting to see where that

30:36
goes, if it actually touches on the religious community. In other words, is, I think what I'm hearing you say there.

Sister Zither 30:43
Yeah, it's like a little bit of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen Bradford Long 30:46
And one of the ways that I like to think about monasticism is similar to how I think about ritual. And of course, there's a lot of overlap here, but I think Shiva honey has a pretty healthy approach to and everyone can listen to my interviews with Shiva, honey, she's on semi regularly to talk about ritual and whatnot. But she says, you know, different strokes for different folks. And some people, they, they really fucking love ritual, I actually personally happen to not really be one of those people, I I do have rituals, of course, but they're, they're much more contemplative in nature, they're much less. They don't have props, they don't have, you can see my altar back here. That's the only prop I have. And right now it's covered in books. So I have a very neglected ritual practice, but that, but I don't necessarily feel a need for like a daily or weekly ritual practice that involves kind of that emotional catharsis. And, and, and symbolic acts, and all of that kind of stuff. But a lot of people love it. And that's wonderful. That's fantastic. And we have space to explore ritual, individually and publicly, right, individually, and and communally. And, and then for people who just aren't into it, it's like, yeah, just go smoke a cigarette while everyone else is doing the black mass or whatever, right. And that's great. And TST has space for all of that. For that whole spectrum of like, you know, just go drink a beer. While while all the other Satanists are doing the black mass or the destruction ritual and and if it isn't your thing, then that's fine. And I see monasticism in a similar light, if that makes sense. It's like it's a tool that is available to us, and some people won't resonate with it. And that's great. And then others will. And that's also fantastic.

Sister Zither 32:56
Yeah, I think the only thing I would be prescriptive about is being prescriptive on the pitfalls to avoid. I would be then the anti guru. I will be vehemently Yeah. And you know, from the yoga world, Guru ism is just let's,

Stephen Bradford Long 33:16
let's definitely talk about that in a minute. So you would be visiting him in Vienna? The I can't say that

Sister Zither 33:24
strongly. I can't draw strongly.

Stephen Bradford Long 33:28
So you're strong. Yeah. You would be strongly opposed to Guru is okay. So, so insights from monasticism of what not to do in a religious setting. Right. So it sounds like guru ism is one of those things. Is there anything else that would be prescriptive for Yeah.

Sister Zither 33:44
Oh, my God. Yes. Strongly anti guru, strongly anti dogma, because that's, that's just, that's not going to go anywhere. Good, strongly and holier than thou arms race. And this is particularly a problem with a skepticism. Yeah. You know what I mean, right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So that that could go so so poorly, and strongly anti shame. Just as soon as we start talking about practice, or sharing practices and things like that, that opens up a lot of vulnerabilities and there needs to be a very strong message of like, your practices, your practice, like shame free. We're not setting any sort of correct practice and correct practice. It's hard though, because even with traditional monasticism, again, this skepticism and things like that, it gets into a lot of honestly self destructive behaviors, which as some people I can see people working in kink, I can see people working in a lot of very specific restrictive behaviors, for example, and there will have to be conversations about Where's where's the line on that? Not not just Same but also not to get that arms race or not to get like destructive monasticism has huge potential to become destructive as we've seen, in actual practice with people

Stephen Bradford Long 35:13
again and again and again. Yeah, so I mean, for example, my, my partner, I won't go into details, because it's his story, but he experienced some looking back on it, just just straight up abuse in, in the monastic world, just just straight up abusive stuff that was very unhealthy, but was under the veil of piety, it was under the veil of holiness and so much becomes permissible under the under the the pursuit of holiness, it's it becomes like it becomes this smokescreen for to just for abuse. And so I I am hearing kind of five primary cautions, one is Guru ism, the other is on holier than thou. The other is self you know, self flagellation. The other is dogma and the other is shame. And these are all very real pitfalls in the formation of, of, of contemplative practice, or ritual practice or a monastic practice or whatever combination thereof. Right. And, and I think that I still probably am working through a lot of the internalization of these, because I, I have had some pretty extraordinary experiences within within a contemplative setting. But then with that, almost always, in my experience has almost always come a an element of coercion or abuse. And it's hard to separate those things out. It's really, really hard.

Sister Zither 37:08
Yeah. And we've become so good at abusing ourselves and coercing ourselves like once that that has been established. We run on autopilot, too. So yeah, yeah, those

Stephen Bradford Long 37:19
tapes go really deep. And so it's so easy to sell flagellate when it comes to this kind of stuff. And so guru Dum, that's something that I'm particularly interested in, because, of course, I was in the yoga world, I cannot think of a single guru, who wasn't in some way a despicable human being. It there's just something about that culture, that that encourages abusive, narcissistic, power hungry people to to become awful. And so that's, I've seen it a lot, and it's super gross, and it's super destructive. Do you have any insights on on how to avoid guru dumb? Like, what are what are cultural safeguards? or societal safeguards that that we can have in place culturally to avoid a guru dumb?

Sister Zither 38:17
Oh, I wish I knew. Yeah. I wish I knew.

Stephen Bradford Long 38:21
Well, it because it's human nature, almost. It is. So these things crop up so often in human nature's and so it's really hard to have good safeguards.

Sister Zither 38:33
Yeah, good. Yeah. And the thing is, is we can't stop. People from positioning themselves in gurus, especially with the current ecosystem for social media and the current ecosystem for information transfer. People will try to become growers. The only thing we can do is as a larger community, be vocal about caution about those things. We can't stop people from being attracted to gurus either, like how do you stop that magnetism? There's a reason why Guru ism is a thing. And I'm sure many communities would like to avoid it. I think the way we've shaped a lot of TST practice, for example, the way we have services being so linear and non hierarchical the way the communities are set up to be very egalitarian and things like that, I think continuing to not only cultivate that and set up those frameworks, but to openly and vocally praise that and be like, oh, so good that we were talking all from the panel today and things like that, like, elevate each other and be very careful to make sure that the net is cast wide that we're elevating many voices, and take that as a sort of preventative measure against the attraction of gurus. Are the attraction of becoming a guru?

Stephen Bradford Long 40:02
Yeah, I love that. And also, for me, one of the most helpful things for me to remember is being aware of a cognitive glitch does not actually make me less vulnerable to it somehow. Goodness, yeah. You know, and so and just because I'm a Satanist who is anti authoritarian, who is anti, just the, it's like, this glitch is so pervasive that even be holding the values that I hold, that doesn't mean that I should stop being careful. It's like, though, just because I know that I'm anti authoritarian, and I hold these values, and I'm a Satanist. And I'm aware of the propensity towards a guru dumb, does not actually make me any, any less vulnerable. And it it kind of reminds me of the rational community, you know, the eight, you know, hardcore atheist rationalists, being falling down, you know, touting rationality, and touting what they call anti tribalism. And then so often falling down this, this kind of right wing rabbit hole. And, and, you know, the, and they are aware of the cognitive glitches, a lot of them are technically aware of the cognitive glitches. And that awareness in and of itself does not keep them from falling down these really gross rabbit holes. And so awareness is not enough. It has to be more proactive, like I have to be proactively anti guru.

Sister Zither 41:49
Yeah, correct, proactively anti guru. And also, don't feel obligated that it always needs to be all on your shoulders all the time, there's the importance of being able to prop each other up. There's the importance of active and open communication between people. So if someone's getting a little, little close to that edge, you can be like, Hey, I heard the thing you said, I want to talk to you about that kind of thing. But you know, I have a not to be too much like, oh, community community, cuz we're Satanists. We're hired individuals or what have you. But the community and open conversation sunlight, sunlight, fixes bad ideas, sunlight on bad ideas is super helpful.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:38
If we may, quote The aforementioned gross right wing atheists. Sunlight is the best disinfectant with the coffee, sometimes. Not all the time, but a lot of the time. And so that kind of open communication and yeah, I completely agree with you that that I think the structure of tsp kind of helps to mitigate a lot of the more toxic features of that we might find in contemplative life. And monasticism, by the way, I'm using the words, contemplative and monastic interchangeably. I think I'm just now realizing that would you say that that is an appropriate thing? To to to conflate the two or not?

Sister Zither 43:27
I personally wish they're in the same basket, but they're not the same thing. But I don't see any any big issue and like, if that for you is what your practice looks like. Absolutely. Like to find myself like, go go nuts.

Stephen Bradford Long 43:44
Yeah, yeah. So I've been thinking about what might what? Maybe what is a starting point for exploring monasticism within a satanic setting? And I and I came up with this very basic three point, formula. Okay, so I'm a, I'm a former Protestant come out of the Calvinist tradition. We love our points. So this is this is my three point formula for beginning and but it's but it's like pirate code, it's more of a suggestion than a than a rule, right? So keep that in mind. So, step one would be exploring a boundary. Now this boundary can be literally anything under the sun. It can be a boundary of Okay, at this particular time of day, I'm just going to turn off my technology and I'm going to go for a walk or it can be you know, what I am, I am done interacting with a particular type of person. So I'm going to put a boundary there or, or maybe I'm, I'm getting overwhelmed with social media. So I'm going to remove social media from my phone. So we have a boundary. And that can literally be anything under the sun, it can be that it is an individually tailored boundary. So that's step one. And then step two would be a practice. Now, this can be literally any practice under the sun, it can be some kind of kink, it can be some kind of ritual, it can be some kind of meditation, it can be some kind of, you know, just reading in the evening, it can be literally any anything under the sun. So, so step one would be find a boundary, Step two would be find a practice. And then step three is a duration. And so we could say, I'm doing it just for this weekend. Or we could say I'm doing this for the next year. Or we could say I'm doing it for the next six months, or the next week, or whatever. And that's it. That would, and I and that might be those three steps, find a boundary, find a practice for a duration of time. And that's it. And it can be any variable within any of those three slots, but and so it provides a structure, but it's wide open. And I don't know what do you think of that? What do you what do you think of that as an entry point? And is there anything that you would subtract or add to that?

Sister Zither 46:29
Yeah, well, I'm gonna Yes, and you on this that I think the only thing that's missing is like usually they have these symbolic names like the golden path or something. Okay, I can just propose Can we call it the three string banjo of satanic enlightenment?

Stephen Bradford Long 46:43
Yeah. The three string banjo and I'm here in Appalachia in North Carolina, so I am down with that.

Sister Zither 46:55
All right, all right, to to sing your own tune towards balance. Harmony.

Stephen Bradford Long 47:03
So you have so you have those three strings, but you can play whatever the fuck you want on those three strings.

Sister Zither 47:09
Yes. Yes. As long as you're jamming on it. Yeah.

47:12
Yeah, the name that I was coming up with was way more boring, which was just the satanic monastic pledge.

Sister Zither 47:18
But I like, you know, that makes more sense.

Stephen Bradford Long 47:22
And so you know, but I like the the three stringed banjo of satanic monasticism more but then maybe you could initiate the banjo pledge, Banjo slash pledge with a ritual with a small ritual, if they want to do that kind of an initiation ritual or a starting ritual. I know that sober faction, which has some gorgeous rituals. They have they have a kind of a starting ritual and, and sober faction to begin the seven rituals, which is for people who are not in the know. So perfection is our sobriety. community within tst. Yes, yeah. So perfection is fucking awesome. And anyone who is interested in that you go listen to my interview with Jody and John eldritch. Who are the directors and it's just a beautiful program. So for people who are who are into ritual, they could initiate it with a with a little ritual.

Sister Zither 48:21
Well, so the way I'm thinking about if if someone were to ask me, How do I start incorporating monasticism or some sort of conceptualization of monasticism into my practice? A lot of monasticism as you know starts with like the novice level or there's like degrees of entry. And I think a lot of the degrees of entry and existing forms of monasticism are in early monasticism don't have any big jumps, you're really literally just doing the same stuff you you normally do, it's just You've crushed it crossed the threshold into understanding it differently. So if I were to do a model, like a version of the the three string banjo of satanic enlightenment, just coin that right now. I would say pick something that you're already doing that's positive and start doing it intentionally. So anything that you're already doing that you feel like this is a thing I want to hold on to make it intentional and then amplify it anyway as like string number two, and then to get that that whole chord of reflect and adjust so that there's no necessary pledge or no necessarily bond or vow or something like that. There's many monastic orders that require absolutely no vows. You are different monastic practices where, you know when you're crossing that threshold, you can mark it if you want, you don't have to, but that reflect and adjust as being part of the amplification process part Did the intentionality process and I think that also, like you said, to keep it open and have the whole range, what you want to play with it is whatever you want. But really focus on the what's already working for you, what are you already doing, use that as an anchor point, rather than adding or subtracting, sometimes that can be super stressful for folks to try to remember.

Stephen Bradford Long 50:25
Yeah, and it can definitely become overwhelming really fast. And so maybe an example here, so I'm already a reader, I already, you know, read a lot, it's one of my primary forms of, of entertainment. So and then I also, you know, try to shut down my, all my technology in the evening for at least an hour before bed, because, you know, I'm very, very, very sensitive to light. And so if I'm looking at my phone or whatever it I will not sleep, period. And so I have to have that wind down period. And so this is something that I know about myself. And so, but this is already like a pre existing thing in my life, right? This is already something that that I'm working towards, or it's in my life to a certain degree, well, maybe with the three stringed banjo, satanic monastic pledge, I, I would take this thing that is already present in my life, and become more aware and intentional about it. And so the boundary could be okay, well, every night at 11pm, I'm going to attempt to kind of put put the gaming away or put YouTube away or email or whatever it is. And so that would be the boundary. And then the practice would be okay, I'm going to read for 30 minutes to an hour, which is something that I already do, but this is just kind of becoming more intentional about it. And then the duration, let's just say, you know, for the rest of March, right, and then it's like, at the end of March, I could revisit it, revisit this and see if it's actually working, is it working or not? Okay, well, it's time to update it. If it isn't working, you know, then then we can tinker around with it, see what works and what doesn't work. And so it's like a pre existing thing in my life, that I'm just bringing kind of greater awareness and intentionality to I'm fine tuning it. But yeah. Say I am someone who may be more prone towards certain obsessive compulsive disorder. Obsessive Compulsive proclivities, this might actually not be good for me, this might not be Yeah, this might not be healthy for me. And so I have had friends who are who, whose ritual practice does not interact well, with their, whatever version of neurodiversity that they have. And so in that case, maybe not putting the framework of, of the three stringed banjo pledge, what would be the appropriate,

Sister Zither 53:11
we could also have the, the single drum head jambay, of satanic enlightenment, where you have just like, a moment where you do the thing, and that is your practice. And it's over. And it's done. And you can do it as many times as you want, as few times as you want. At any point, you can beat out a rhythm on it, or what have you. I think the only thing is it needs to be consciously separate from whatever you're normally doing. But we can have as many different varieties as there are monasticism. So definitely no single single path, One Ring to rule them all kind of approach.

Stephen Bradford Long 53:50
Absolutely. Well, I think that's a great note to end on. This has been a fantastic conversation. And I think that there's so much more to explore here. This is something that is a passion of mine. And I would love to have you on again to talk more about this. And maybe we could explore the you know, we can explore this more. One of the exciting things about being a Satanist is that we get to invent it, we get to create it as we go along. And that's one of the most exciting things about being in a new religious movement is we get to create the religion that we want to see in the world. So this is just another aspect of creating the religion that we want to see in the world. So yeah, definitely. I'm

Sister Zither 54:34
so glad that that we're doing it and I'm so glad that you have a platform, a public platform where you can be vocal and conscious about conversations about this. It's invaluable to the community and to the development of our TST religion.

Stephen Bradford Long 54:50
Awesome. Thank you so much. All right. Well, that is it for this show. The theme song is wild by eleventy seven you can find it on Apple Music or Spotify or wherever Are you listen to music? This show is written, produced and edited by me Steve and Bradford long and it is a production of rock candy recordings, as always Hail Satan. And thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-ST Satans Lawyer80tcg

2022-10-11T08:06:13Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

ST_Satans_Lawyer80tcg
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
tst, ritual, people, question, satanism, religious, abortion, called, lawsuit, religion, law, state, judge, scottsdale, satanic, part, satan, free speech, prayer, bit
SPEAKERS
Stephen Bradford Long, Matt Kezhaya

Stephen Bradford Long 00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast this is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long, and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com. All right. Well, as always, before we get started, I have to thank my patrons. My patrons are my personal lords and saviors, and I truly could not do this without them. So for this week, I have to thank Julia, Megan, Tim, and Adrienne, thank you so much, every little bit helps. And for anyone wondering where this money goes, it actually goes to like very practical life stuff like repairing my car and feeding my six cats. And the the pipes in my front yard exploded over the weekend. And it goes to repairing things like that. So every little bit helps. And for anyone listening who wants to join their number, just go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long. For $1 $3 $5 a month, you get extra content every single week, and early access to the occasional episode of sacred tension. And this show is also sponsored by the satanic temple.tv. The Satanic Temple has an incredibly creative community. And there's all kinds of stuff happening over at tst. TV. If you're interested in the occult, and talk shows, weird puppet shows and cooking shows, then, please go to the satanic temple.tv. And you can use my promo code sacred tension all caps, no space at checkout. And finally, one of the best ways to support this show is to leave five star reviews on Apple podcasts. I will read your review, even if it's nasty on the show. So please leave a five star review. You can also now leave five stars on Spotify as well. All of that helps it tells our digital overlords that this show is worth sharing with others. With all of that out of the way. Matthew Kezhaya. Welcome to the show.

Matt Kezhaya 02:30
Thank you so much for having me.

Stephen Bradford Long 02:31
Did I pronounce your name correctly?

Matt Kezhaya 02:33
Spot on.

Stephen Bradford Long 02:34
Okay, good. Tell us, tell us some about who you are and what you do.

Matt Kezhaya 02:38
So I serve as general counsel for TST the Sanctum people. I'm pretty much the guy that runs all the litigation efforts at TST does. Most recently we are in the news for the the reproductive religious rights campaign, which involves a couple of lawsuits against Texas. I say a couple we just filed the second one. I think it was last week, maybe the week before that it's actually getting served today. So very timely on that on that front. And you want to knows anything about TST it's, you know, all kinds of stuff. We're having Satan con here. The filming of this is on February 8. So here in a few days for me might be over about a 10 people listen to it, which was the subject of a different lawsuit. A couple of weeks back, we filed a big bell plane brief on the belt Lane matter. Just lots of things going on pretty much at all times.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:34
All the time... Did you just say that there is a lawsuit regarding SatanCon?

Matt Kezhaya 03:38
No, no. SatanCon is in Scottsdale, Scottsdale, AZ.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:42
Right? Where where one of the lawsuits took place over the invocation. Is that correct? Yeah.

Matt Kezhaya 03:48
Yeah. So we are good.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:50
Well, no, I was I was just going to say so it's like we are in like two different arms of tsp. So I serve on ordination Council in satanic ministry. So you know, like I am in the religious life, clergy side of the temple. And I never think I almost never think about the legal stuff. Like my, my whole world is the satanic ministry. And so that's what I'm like doing every single day. So whereas you're like, on the other end of the temple, doing all the legal stuff, so it's great to talk to you and what is going so there is so much talk about the reproductive rights battles going on in Texas. And with tsp, just give us an update what is going on?

Matt Kezhaya 04:42
So the update I feel like I should start with the predicate so that the update makes sense, but I'll start with the update. The update is again, there are two lawsuits. There's the federal lawsuit in the state lawsuit. I want to say maybe a month or so ago, the federal lawsuit got state aid because if if you know what's going on with the Supreme Court, they're basically trying to overturn Roe v. Wade. Well, that's basically something that the federal judge picked up on and said, Well, you know, you're part of the lawsuit entails, it's called Casey. That's the that's actually the case that matters. That's how you look at abortion regulations, at least as of right now. So we have a Casey claim in this lawsuit, basically saying that these abortion regulations are an undue burden in the language of the law. And since it's resting, essentially on Roe v. Wade, and Roe v. Wade is looking like it's about to go away, the judge said, Well, we're just going to stay all this, let's figure out what happens with Roe v. Wade, and Casey, and then we'll, we'll go from there. So we had everything all briefed up and had been briefed up since about August or so of last year is when we had our oil oral argument and call it I don't know, January or December. So it just got vacated, we're just going to start all over here pretty soon. So that's the big update on the federal side of things. One of the outcomes of this motion to dismiss was that a state claim could only be turned out a state claim could only be heard in state court. So part of the lawsuit got ejected from the federal lawsuit. And we just refiled that a couple a couple of weeks ago or so within the past couple weeks. And so that one is a little bit more on than this gets into the weeds a little bit. So the kind of the predicate for all of these two lawsuits is that TSD has an abortion ritual. Everyone else has abortions, and it's just a secular medical concern. But there are special rights that kick in when something is religiously motivated. So that's the impetus of gsts claim. The federal lawsuit attacks it from the federal constitution perspective, the state lawsuit attacks it from a it's called the Texas Religious Freedom Restoration Act very high level in 1990. A federal case came out that said, so far as the federal constitution is concerned, if a neutral and generally applicable law happens to infringe upon your religious beliefs or practices, it's still kosher, you have to show that it was intended to target that particular belief. Otherwise, it's it doesn't matter that it's religiously motivated. Well, that triggered a backlash from about two thirds of the states and the federal government. That said, that's not what the law should be. The law should be if there's even a general neutrally neutral and generally applicable law, even if that's the case, the fact that it's infringing on religiously motivated conduct, that's not okay. And the government should have a very high burden to prove that that's the least restrictive way that I can go about pursuing whatever that it's called the compelling interest that the highest order interest of, of government. So that's the state law claim. And so, you know, this, all of this Texas business came out before SBA, so part of the new Texas lawsuit is taking issue with SBA and saying this runs afoul of our Texas refer rights. It actually, in our opinion, runs and follow the Texas cuts tuition because they just amended their constitution to basically incorporate refer reasoning. And then the interesting most interesting part legally, to me, is there's a part of SBA that says liability does not attach for conduct that is protected by the First Amendment. So we're asserting that this is conduct its expressive conduct minimally, it's particularly religious, expressive conduct. So we shouldn't even need to get to the constitutionality of SBA. It just falls into this safe harbor that this ritual is not a predicate for liability. So all of this to say that our members should be able to get their abortions as an exemption to Texas's generally applicable regulations. As a general proposition, there are some that, you know, we're not taking issue with.

Stephen Bradford Long 09:09
Do you think that the people who set all of this up the religious freedom exemptions and whatnot had any idea that it would apply to anyone other than Christians?

Matt Kezhaya 09:20
Yeah, yeah. Okay. So for the most part, religious freedom case laws developed from non well, I'll just say they're, they're usually developed by minority religions. In 1992, which was about three, four years before the federal referral act. And there's some background there initially started out that it was just a federal act, and it was supposed to apply to both the federal government and all the states, but then I want to say 98 or 2000, the part that says this applies to the States as well gotten validated because it's a it's a federalism issue. And so as a result of that, about Two thirds of states have passed their own analogs of RiFRA. And they're all you know, the Texas Religious Freedom Restoration Act, the Arkansas Religious Freedom Restoration Act, some different names as well, but they usually just follow the same language as the federal act. All this to say, though, that just four years before this Act came out, the Harry Krishnas were they had to go to the Supreme Court, the US Supreme Court, because there were a bunch of regulations that said they can't hand out their literature, except in like, they can't go behind the security area where everyone's getting on the plane, they were relegated to the front. And there were some other things that were designed, frankly, purposely to limit their proselytizing, and that's not kosher. Harry, Christians were not a popular group. There were minority groups. So I mean, it was anyone who's paying attention in Congress is they they know what's going on. They're briefed by it. There's people that care about this stuff. I'm frankly one of them. So yeah, they they know that these kinds of rights are going to apply equally to Christians as well as minority religions. And it's I'm not sure I'd go that far. Okay. Okay. And contemporary society, meaning like nowadays, I don't think so. I think nowadays when you hear religious freedom, you're mostly hearing from Catholics. I want to say it was a to within the past couple of years, actually about a year and a half ago. A really big case came out, called Espinosa. And I forget the rest of it, but basically their Montana had a law that said, these state funds can only go to secular schools or paths. We're passing out money and can only go to secular schools cannot go to religious schools. And this Espinosa case, totally overhauled that and said, No, it's a free exercise problem. You can't you can't bar this Catholic school because they're Catholic from participating in this. Shortly after that, there was another big case called Fulton actually, this was this was right before our response brief. And the Texas case it just came out like June ish of last year there same kind of thing that kind of up ended a little bit, that whole notion of remember, we talked about neutral and generally applicable laws, this kind of blew that up and said, Look, if you have the discretion if the government reserves the right to accommodate or not accommodate, it must accommodate otherwise is not really neutral, because they can accommodate they just chose not to in your particular case. And that was the Catholics wanting to discriminate against same sex couples, but they still wanted money from the state. So that's, that's what happened there.

Stephen Bradford Long 12:50
Yeah, super interesting. So there's a lot of skepticism about the abortion ritual. And for everyone interested, everyone should go back into the archive and listen to my interview with Jane Essex, of when the abortion ritual was first launched when it was first announced. I think that was in 2020. Is that right?

Matt Kezhaya 13:12
2020? Say August 2020. Sounds right.

Stephen Bradford Long 13:15
Yeah, that sounds right. So everyone can go back and listen to that episode. It gives a lot of the details, but a lot of people on Twitter and there there is a lot of skepticism, some skepticism about the abortion ritual. And so I collected questions from my Discord server. And I think this question is really interesting, and it kind of explores an angle on the abortion ritual. So as the first one here, some critics have claimed that the legal basis for TSDS abortion ritual is faulty. That because it was not explicitly approved by any courts, and that because it merely falls after the fact into the guidelines set out it is not truly an exemption to abortion bans, or other laws dictating how abortion is handled on the state level. can you articulate the legality of the abortion ritual?

Matt Kezhaya 14:12
I'm having a little bit of trouble with and the the background to the question followed by the question, taking the question as as stated, can you articulate the legality of the abortion ritual? Yeah, the the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution guarantees that people are allowed to exercise their religion as they see fit. And religion is a pretty broad term TST counts as a religion in this context. That's actually the big one that we got out of Scottsdale is that we got that judicial stamp of approval. We are a bonafide religion entitled to First Amendment religious rights. And no one can ever take that away from us at this point, but the background to the question,

Stephen Bradford Long 14:53
I might be able to, I might be able to clarify some. Okay, at least this is how I read Did I, because people have actually articulated this to me in in various ways. And so this may or may not be what this particular person meant to ask, but this is how I will interpret it. There is I think that there's something that might rub people the wrong way because it feels to them to some people like the abortion ritual is contrived, merely for the sake of granting exemption as a loophole, not as a sincere religious expression. And so take, for example, Ayahuasca ceremonies or peyote ceremonies for native for Native Americans, where it's like the that is a sincere religious practice that has involved ritual for decades, if not centuries. And so it makes sense to people that that would, that that is a legitimate religious exercise, I think, and this isn't my view, by the way, but I think some people have a hard time not seeing the abortion ritual as almost like a gimmick that the Satanic Temple is using to exploit a loophole and that it is not, in fact, a sincerely held religious ritual. That is my view. But I think that is the view of a lot of people online.

Matt Kezhaya 16:25
Sure. So thank you for that. That actually helps elucidate quite a bit. So I kind of break this down then into two questions. Question number one is, is it a sincerely held religious practice? Is it religious within the meaning of these religious exemption rights? The suggestion is that well, since it's new, or since it's being deployed for the purpose of, seemingly at least for the purpose of seeking an exemption to these religious portions, that makes it not sincerely held. So I'll address that question first. So the thing is part of these religious rights cases necessarily entail is this practice? Is this belief, religious in nature. And it's basically a two part test. Question number one is, is it sincerely held because this is where the Pastafarians went wrong? They roll around in their pirate outfits colanders on your head and whatnot, they're very clearly mocking religion. Yeah, that's an argument that I have to deal with fairly regularly. And in my line of work

Stephen Bradford Long 17:32
and pause, I am so sick of being compared to Pastafarians just yet to everyone listening. I the comparisons to pasta foreign ism. I, I get it on an initial kind of surface level. But there is literally nothing ironic about my Satanism. My Satanism goes to my very bone marrow like there is there's nothing ironic or humorous about it. It is 100% deadly serious not. That doesn't mean that it can't have a sense of humor. But there's zero irony there. So I am so sick of the pasta foreign comparisons anyway, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. I just had to interject. It kills me. It absolutely fucking kills me.

Matt Kezhaya 18:20
And, frankly, I completely agree that that reaction right there, though, just demonstrates that's what makes TST sincerely help. Exactly. Now, if this is something that you don't give a shit about, first of all, why are you in court? But second of all, like that, that, that just immediate sense of offense, when you're when you're, you know, questioning on that nature. That is what sincerely held is really getting at. So that's the first part of the question. The second part of the question is, is it religious? And there's not a concise and clear statement of when something religious. The best case that I've found is called mal neck too. And I cited this in the Scottsdale case, I think this is why we won the TSDS or religion side of things. It's very philosophical. But I basically boil it down to a single question. Does this organization or belief or practice do for that plaintiff? What Christianity or God or what have you does for Christians? So this is where it matters that TST has removing the abortion ritual from the equation. We have destruction rituals, we have other rituals, we have ceremony, and in other words, we have to some extent, well, I'll just take it in descending order. We have symbolism, there's quite a bit of symbolism involved. We have congregation that's a big part of things as well, although not necessary. All of these things are, you know, indicative of it's a religion But the main thing is, at the end of the day TSGs creed is something that answers those fundamental questions of life, man's place in the universe, etc. That is really it fills that same need that going to church does for a Christian or believing in God does for Christians. That's what makes it religious.

Stephen Bradford Long 20:26
And as a former Christian, I can 100% vouch to that I converted from Christianity, to Satanism. I didn't D convert from Christianity to atheism, or I didn't D convert to Satanism. I converted from from one religion to another. And I can see the parallels between the two in very stark terms. I mean, the two are so very obviously religious to me, because my own experience of both Christianity and Satanism are 100%. Religious.

Matt Kezhaya 21:01
Yeah. So that's, that's really the crux of these two cases is, you know, is this belief sincerely held is or this practice? Rather, is it securely held? Does it come from? Is it an expression of the tenants? And that's a fact question. You know, we have a particular member who wanted to engage in this ceremony. And these regulations that we're taking issue with were roadblocks to our ability to participate in that ceremony. I likened it to the judge it's like taxing and regulating maths, you just, you know, if there was a licensing scheme, before you're allowed to go participate in maths, there would be an uproar. But the thing about the Constitution is, it doesn't, you don't count heads, we don't have the Constitution for the majority, belief structure, we have it for the minority belief structure, it's protection from tyranny of the majority. That's why we have these things, their fundamental civil rights, that evocative sense of, Well, this is a religious practice, then if this is a religious practice, and at the stage we're at is presumed to be a religious practice, because the facts go away, then what does that mean, when you put roadblocks up in front of it, so that I think maybe a little bit better addresses it? And then the second part of the question that I'm kind of deriving from this is, do religions have to be old? In order to be a bonafide religion? The answer is no, there is quite a bit of scholarship out there, basically, to the effect of new religions are a thing and they are no less legitimate and no less entitled to protections than old religions. Going back to a very significant case Larson versus Valenti of lintec. I think it's the 1982 case that I cite, probably in all of my cases, it talks about the basically history of the assumptions, laws, and that is the genius and part of our First Amendment that I forget exactly how they put it there. They're far better written than they are spoken for us. But it's to the effect of, you know, there is no greater guarantee against tyranny, that the majority must relegate treatment of itself to its treatment of the minority, you know, to someone else, you got to hold yourself to that same hurdle there. So, you know, this is the kind of underlying legal framework that we work from, to say this is for wine, it's legitimate, not just not just because it's presumed to be legitimate at this stage because of a legal fiction, but I talked to people before I go putting their name on a lawsuit, as lawyers supposed to but I, you know, really put him through the wringer and say, okay, you know, who are you? Why are you wanting to do this? Is this legitimate? You know, are you just kind of out there to, you know, make a name for yourself or whatever, you know, and it's, I satisfy myself that it's sincere before we file a lawsuit.

Stephen Bradford Long 23:53
So I think that gets to the first part of this question as well, which is, how do you tell if someone who wants these religious exemptions is sincere in their religious conviction, or just playing a role, or something like that? And so what I'm hearing you say is that you put them through the wringer until you're satisfied that it is a sincerely held religious conviction?

Matt Kezhaya 24:18
Yeah, well, I don't think I'd be doing anyone any favors by just slapping their name on a complaint and then they get put through the wringer of deposition? Absolutely. Usually, these things involve a camera in your face very hard questions being asked in rapid fire order from some attorney who's you know, staring down his nose at you, and it's not a comfortable experience. And, you know, they need a taste of it before you know, they gotta dip their toe in the water so to speak before they get involved in that, you know, because prep only goes so far. I can't I can't make someone say something under pressure there. These Depositions are designed to try to extract the truth, so to speak. axon interrogation but it sure as hell feels like it.

Stephen Bradford Long 25:02
Right. So we, you talked about how the pasta faria in comparison, drives you crazy. Here's another question from discord. Ask him what the most annoying question he gets about TST is.

Matt Kezhaya 25:16
Hands dow, honestly, the positive foreign one doesn't annoy me as much as it does you. But that's because I typically am dealing with, you know, a neutral arbiter like a judge? Who, I can say, yeah, here's the difference is judge a, we're not running around in pirate costumes demanding that we have colanders on our head. Right? Here's here's the philosophical background tst. This is why this is where it comes from. I'm not inviting an inquiry into whether this is reasonable. What this is, is it's an explanation, I can give that philosophical framework. So that is actually relatively easy for me to deal with, unless I'm just acting or dealing with a bad actor, because that's the thing. But there are sometimes bad actor judges out there know, the one that annoys me the most is outside the law practice, which is why satan, I despise that question. Why is Satan?

Stephen Bradford Long 26:06
What how does? How do you respond to that?

Matt Kezhaya 26:10
I usually just kind of stumbled through it. But I mean, the the usually what I'll say is, well, you know, there's, it comes from a literary satanic movement, you know, from what the late 1700s or whatever. Mari shell you may have heard of her because Frankenstein, while you know, she was part of this movement of people who basically turn this literary character of Satan on its head, and said, you know, basically, maybe Satan wasn't so bad. And so that kind of started the impetus of now we have Satanism, which is, you know, fundamentally, that is the icon, that is the creed that is Satanism, it's the starting point. So that's why it's eight. So, you know, I have an answer. I just hate giving it because, you know, the premise of the question is that the speaker knows more about what's going on inside my head, than I do as if I'm just like, putting on this aspect for their fucking entertainment, or whatever.

Stephen Bradford Long 27:13
Yep, no, I have the exact same experience. And I wrote an article several years ago, titled, why Satan in which I attempt to answer that question. But it there's just like, this deep, deep confusion about why would anyone attach themselves to such a stigmatized figure? Why would anyone attach themselves to like, the icon of all evil in Western culture? And the answer that I usually give them is stop and think about what you just said. Doesn't that suggest that this is stigmatized? And yet I do it anyway? Doesn't that suggest to you that this isn't a political ploy? That this isn't a troll, but it is, in fact, a sincere religious conversion that I experienced that it is a sincere religious conviction that I'm willing to take hits for? Because it's what I believe, and it's who I am. Doesn't that suggest to you just how serious it is? And that tends to be that tends to be one of the things that I say, but I, but yeah, no, I totally get that. And it I feel like people have this deep confusion over whether we are primarily a religious organization, or a political organization. And I think a lot of people probably because they watched Hail Satan by Penny Lane, which is a great movie. It is fantastic. But as one of my friends says, there isn't a thing about Satanism in it. It's it is there isn't a bit of Satanism in that movie. And I liked Penny Lane, and I liked the movie, I think, I think it is in a good representation of the temple. But there is no Satanism in it. And I like Penny Lane. I had her on the show when the movie came out. So I think people see the movie and assume that we are first and foremost a political organization. But the problem is that being a political organization and doing political activism, you know, the number of times people have said to me, don't you think your political cause would be better served if it if you didn't have Satan in your name? And I'm like, there's a fundamental confusion here. Because you think that we are a political organization, not a religion, and it's like getting the cart before the horse. It would be like saying, oh, you know, the Quakers, they aren't actually religious. Their Quakerism is just a cover for their social activism. It would be as weird and offensive as that. You know?

Matt Kezhaya 28:33
I do yeah, it's, well, it's spot on. God, I can't remember which podcast I listened to, but someone had some churches Satan member on there. And they were just talking about, you know, that's the main difference between CEOs and TST is the activism it's doing things. And frankly, I understand that there's a philosophical gap there. But I don't think that other people really grasp that from the outside. Because, you know, I mean, partly, I think the issue is TST doesn't really proselytize in the way that other religions do. You know, TST does things that broadcasts we exist, this is kind of what we believe, but it's not your you're never going to be good and knock on your door. Ask being asked if someone wants to talk about Satan that day, it's a we have better things to do and be that's just not, that's just antithetical to the belief structure. So that tends to cause like a marketing issue. People don't know who we are, what we believe and whatnot. Frankly, that's fine. But you know, that's it does, cause it does cause some difficulties for me in the legal space. I can as judges carry those those biases. Yeah, very much. And I have to counteract those.

Stephen Bradford Long 31:22
Yeah, I can imagine. Well, and, you know, writing about Satanism, it's probably the thing that I deal with the most and just kind of being a satanic content creator on the internet, the I watch people have these, like, tiny existential crises on a regular basis where they, they're like, You seem really sincere. But TST is a joke. How do I put these things together? And I'm like, does it occur to you? That maybe it isn't, that maybe your assumptions were wrong. And there's this concept that Joseph Laycock talks about, which is what he calls ignorant familiarity, where, and he talks about this in his book, Speak of the devil with an ignorant Familiarity is this phenomenon where people who know the least about something, tend to think and act as if they know the most. And so there are all of these people who know literally nothing the most they know about Satanism is what they watched in an in, you know, a music video on in on MTV 20 years ago, that is the most that they know about any kind of thing relating to Satanism at all. And then they are they they have the authority to regale me with satanic knowledge with knowledge of the religion of Satanism, and it is 100% of thing. And I encounter it all the time.

Matt Kezhaya 32:59
It must be exhausting.

Stephen Bradford Long 33:00
It is, it is but you know, you don't become a Satanist. And you don't become a public satanist and not be forced to be willing to talk about it on a regular basis. So here's a question. That's interesting. Have you learned anything new from working on TST cases, any obscure facets of law?

Matt Kezhaya 33:24
Will really I would consider all of the First Amendment to kind of fall under this under this notion before I was TSTs. Lawyer, I was just a lawyer. And there's not a lot of First Amendment work out there. I you know, I would spot constitutional issues all the time in cases because there's just a lot of law out there. But you know, really getting involved and the TST work is there is there is a lot to talk about free speech, free exercise, equal protection. Hell, even some due process stuff I've had to come in all of these are lawyer jargon term, sorry. Free speech is the first amendment right to free expression. It's the right to either express things that you want to express or not support expressions of things that you don't want to express the right to whether to speak, and if so what to say. And that, that's an umbrella under which free expression can be found. But free exercise is a little bit more precise. It's more about the freedom of conscience. It's your belief structure, your viewpoint about basically religion, things, which importantly, includes not just how you worship but how you can be free from government requirements of worship. Force prayer, for example, is not just an establishment clause concern. It's also a Free Exercise Clause concern. Obviously, it's action clauses what it is that I mean, there's there's just so much I have so much knowledge that I can't even I can't even try to answer that obscure facets of law.

Stephen Bradford Long 35:14
...and obscure facets of law sounds like something that even if you did try to explain, no one would understand like this is this is like very arcane hermetic knowledge of law.

Matt Kezhaya 35:29
Yeah, I would I would say is this I, before TST, I didn't really have much of a federal practice, I was mostly state. And the the divide between state and federal, is usually you're going to have like two people, I say people to mean that Incore corporations can be included in the term person, two people from different states battling over something that's worth at least $75,000. That's your typical federal case. And the reason why is there's a statute that says federal courts can hear those kinds of cases. I didn't really have much in the way of IP work, intellectual property rights, copyrights, things of that nature.

Stephen Bradford Long 36:14
But there was a lot of that with TST.

Matt Kezhaya 36:16
There's a decent amount of that. Yeah, there's, I mean, I'm GC. I write contracts, I, you know, look at IP issues and say, Okay, well, why don't you send this demand letter here? It's not all. It's not all suing governments there are DST, like every other organization as legal needs that I'm, I'm the guy. But all of this background to say one thing that I was really surprised by is how federal judges are just as prone to making legal errors, factual errors, logical errors is your state judges, they just usually have more resources to think about, how are they going to screw you over to make your appeal harder? My state judges, they don't care. They just say, Okay, well, this is what I'm gonna do. Judge you can't do that. It's against law. I don't care appeal me. Okay. You know, federal judges not so much. They just like disregard inconvenient facts. They just say, Oh, that's not what the law is. The law requires coercion, it doesn't. The Establishment Clause case only lies in coercion. If you're not being forced to pray, that's not an exception clause case. disregard this case over here that says endorsement is a problem that's on all fours. I have this very specific kind of fact pattern. So that was, I think that's probably the thing that surprised me the most. Scott still was really an eye opener. We had literal op eds, literally, the mayor and city councilor put out a newspaper notice we are going to discriminate against the satanists, we're going to tell them hell, now we're going to send the satanic Sideshow elsewhere. And we still lost, we still lost. So these are the kinds of things that, you know, it's just shocking. It's truly shocking. You hear about it a little bit when you're LOD Jason, about just how unjust the system is. And it's real unjust out there. Not just for GST, so obviously, but that's, you know, the subject of discussion.

Stephen Bradford Long 38:26
Sure. Yeah. And so, for people who are unfamiliar with the Scottsdale case, let me see if I can recap. The Arizona chapter, then chapter now congregation was going to hold a a, what's it called? A?

Matt Kezhaya 38:47
It's a legislative prayer. So I can I can give it

Stephen Bradford Long 38:52
please. Yes, please. Because whatever you say, whatever I say, will be riddled with plot holes. So definitely tell us what happened.

Matt Kezhaya 38:59
Super, super high level, here's how it goes. Sometimes, in fact, often, governments will open a government meeting with a government led prayer. And that's a little fishy. From the social class perspective. It sure sounds like the government is saying, We endorse prayer over nonbelievers. If you want to be a good citizen, you must pray. And you must sit here and listen to this prayer that we are going to host and particularly when it comes to like cities, for example, that kind of raises people's bags because they're like I have to either, like be out as a non believer and potentially offend the person who I'm going to be asking something from. Or I have to override my religious non beliefs in most cases. And just go along with this prayer, even though I don't want to because I want something from this person. I don't want them to be mad at me because I'm not participating in their prayer scheme. The way that the Constitution resolves this is they say, oh, You can have these prayers, but they must be non discriminatory. The ability to pray must be evenly handed given out to Christians as Buddhists as indie, you name it, everyone is allowed in or no one is allowed it. That's how this game works. So that being the impetus for all this, Arizona chapter says they are going around not just to Scottsdale is just that Scottsdale was the one that was the issue. Before Scottsdale, they went to Phoenix and Phoenix shut down their prayer scheme to exclude TSD. Then they go over to Scottsdale and Scottsdale says we're gonna let you in. No qualifications, no, nothing sounds great. You want in you get it? Because that's, that's how the law works. That's how you're supposed to do it. A a shitshow happened 15,000 Plus emails crash CD servers entitled no Hail Satan prayer. The as I said earlier, a four out of seven counselors made some kind of public statement to the effect of we don't want these people in here. We talked about it, we resolved that we cannot consistent with the Constitution, exclude them. And then about a month, about a month before the invocation. We get an email from the functionally they they call it a city. City Manager, I think either city manager, a city administrator, basically it's the mayor, the guy who actually runs the city. The mayor sends to the scheduling person an email that says you're going to tell them no. And you're going to tell them no, because they don't have any substantial community ties. And we require that and we always have. And so that was the whole basis of the lawsuit you allowed us in without question, What do you mean, you always required community ties? Seems like that's the kind of question you would ask me before you let us say, right. And also, how do you know, we don't have substantial immunity? Guys, you're just telling us that we don't. And so we saw the writing on the wall, what it is, no matter what it is we come up with, it's not going to be substantially community ties. They're going to redefine substantial community ties to exclude us. And that's what happened litigation. At the outset. You needed a member, we had a member Oh, you need to, we have to, oh, well, you need at least three and a physical location. Okay. And the judge says, oh, that's that's their policy, disregard the the shifting goalposts here. That's their policy. So we lost.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:37
So here's, here's a question. I'm not entirely sure how to articulate it. But what does Matt think of the future regarding bodily autonomy rituals in relation to trans rights, slash access to health care.

Matt Kezhaya 42:52
This kind of goes back to what we were talking about the two functional Wings of TSC, you're in the ministry side of things. I'm in the law side of things. I can tell you all about the legal framework, you present me with a ritual you asked me, you know, what are the legal requirements for ritual? This is kind of what I'm trying to get to. That's totally, totally my field. I, I have thoughts about, you know, short answer. Yeah. I mean, you know, you, for example, want to get top surgery and you want to ritualize the matter? Yeah, I can see many different ways that you could do that, that is a little bit more of the artistry side of TST, that I just not being a minister I, I can't really speak to, but you know, ritual, very traditionally is there to acknowledge certain stages in a person's life. Sometimes, you know, you have birth related rituals, you have death related rituals, you have, you know, coming of age related rituals, I absolutely could see rituals being formed of it. I just don't see how it becomes a legal issue until unless there's some kind of law that is, you know, burdening or, you know, some kind of, you're not allowed to do that, or, you know, maybe you're in the hospital and you're wanting to have your ritual, but like, right before the ritual and or the procedure, and they're telling you no, you know, these are the kinds of areas where I can see, okay, well, these are legal issues now, but in terms of ritualizing the experience that's, I mean, so so far as I'm concerned, I don't think you really need DSTS blessing to ritualize that or to develop your own ritual or what have you. That seems like something you would discuss with your minister though.

Stephen Bradford Long 44:41
Absolutely. Yeah. So if anyone listening to this, who is interested in this subject, definitely get in touch with the various ministers, you know, and if you want to ritualize your transition or a surge Yuri or anything related to your LGBTQ identity, definitely go to your congregation or minister and ask them about that, because that is totally within ministry's purview.

Matt Kezhaya 45:13
Yeah. And I've even encouraged it. You know, I mean, I, personally, I'm not queer of any variety, but I absolutely could see coming out of the closet, that's an immense part of someone's life that, you know, you commemorate that with ritual, you make it, you make the stress. And this is really where the, I guess this probably should have been answered on the first question, but this is, what the abortion ritual is there for is you know, there's a lot of societal pressure on a societal stress and the part of the abortion ritual is there to kind of leave that and give some sense of comfort and a time when is not probably or potentially then is not a good time. That's why we have rituals, we have grief rituals, we have funerals, all of these things. These are around. And you know, it's not just because it's supernatural beliefs, it's there are well studied secular benefits to ritual. I think that's a significant value that TSC gives to the membership.

Stephen Bradford Long 46:19
I'm going to probably get the language here wrong when Church Militant, which is a crazy, fucking Catholic, absolutely lunatic, like Trad Catholic or media organization?

Matt Kezhaya 46:36
Yeah.

Stephen Bradford Long 46:37
You were... You, were you? "All of these are the correct words." Were you I assume you were involved in a statement about their free speech and their religious freedom. Could you talk to them about this, because I read it. And I and I found out about this, because certain TSD to detractors. Were posting this statement everywhere, where, you know, you're defending the Free Speech of this unbelievably horrifically toxic organization called Church Militant. And they were like, see what evil people TST are. And I did not interpret it that way. I saw it as an extraordinary commitment to the first part to first principles, I saw it as an extraordinary commitment to the foundational principles of enlightenment the to the principles that keep society running. So talk some about that situation.

Matt Kezhaya 47:38
Yeah, I'd be more than happy to I'm I'm actually really excited about that brief. I was very excited that Mark Randazza. their lawyer, he texted me and said, "Hey, I want..." it's called an amicus brief. So typically, the way that lawsuits work is you have plaintiff, the defendant, plaintiff is suing defendant, because defendant did something that caused some legal arm to plaintiff. And usually, it's just between the two of them. But when you go up on appeal, which is to say, the trial judge comes out with a decision, then both sides have an opportunity to say I don't like that decision. I don't like something that happened in the trial process, you have an appeal, which is you go above the trial judge and you have a panel of at least three judges who hear your appeal. And they say, essentially, did the judge make the right or wrong call? Fundamentally, and usually on appeal of cases of significant questions, you'll have amicus briefs, the front of the court briefs and mucus puree, who are kind of just side by side observers. It's I'm not like, personally affected by this, but I have an interest in this litigation. And so that's what an amicus is. And I am advocating for the court to do one thing or another, maybe I disagree with both them in this case, I I did actually kind of disagree with them, because they never, the plaintiffs never really addressed the Free Exercise implications, but they're talking about they're so focused on free speech, which again, there's a difference between religious speech and just non religious speech, like secular speech. So they're, you know, pursuing this whole secular argument. And I'm like, well, you're kind of missing a pretty big crux here. This isn't just a business organization that was silenced. You have a religious organization.

Stephen Bradford Long 48:26
And in what way were They silenced? sorry. The fact pattern was this. The United States Conference of Bishops were having their bishop con in Baltimore. Whatever it is, Bishop. Yeah, I don't know. But it's where they cosplay they cosplay as bishops.

Matt Kezhaya 49:47
Yeah, yeah. I or so I assume I never really been Catholic. So at any rate, so they're doing their their bishop thing, administering the Catholic Church and And Church Militant is a bunch of Catholics but they're dissents. dissenters in the Catholic Church, specifically, or at least, specifically, at this point, surrounding the child abuse scandals are saying y'all aren't doing enough to address, you know, the whole raping of kids business. And so Baltimore, if, if I remember correctly, yeah, so where they wanted to have their event was at a Baltimore own venue, City of Baltimore owns a pavilion. And so they wanted to have, you know, speakers come in and talk about basically, this is what's going on, we want to spread awareness. And there was also going to be religious stuff happening there, they're going to be praying the rosary, whatever that means. And there's going to be, you know, it's a, it's a Catholic event is uniquely Catholic event. It's also talking about church governance, which is why it's for exercise problem. And so city of Baltimore finds out about this. And they tell their management company to exclude Church Militant. They say we don't like what they have to say. So D platform them, basically. And they were everything was going fine up until say you've said cancel them. And The stated reason for why they said cancel them as we don't like what they have to say that's a huge Free X free speech issue. Huge sensitive issue.

Stephen Bradford Long 51:19
And so the difference here between say, Twitter, saying We don't like what so and so says, or they're violating our terms of service, therefore, we're deplatforming them, versus the government doing it. Yeah. There's obviously gargantuan Twitter being a private organization, the government being the government, and that is what makes this a legal issue is that it was in a government pavilion. Right.

Matt Kezhaya 51:47
And that's what makes it a free speech issue. Right, right. Right. Right. Okay. Private companies can cause private harms. And so for example, Arkansas has a you cannot religiously discriminate. Law. Like at all, nobody can religiously discriminate lots of places have, you know, hotels can't religiously discriminate, or they call it places of public accommodation, can't religiously discriminate, but Arkansas just has like a carte blanche. Nobody can religiously discriminate. So there are some times when stuff like that can come up, like if you're censoring religious speech, for example. In this particular case, it's actual because it's the government doing it that makes the most sense. Yes. But, you know, the people aren't control the laws, if you know, there's enough political pressure. I could see there being some regulation out there that says Twitter can't discriminate along these lines is happening for now. That's not the case, though. So that's what happened in in Baltimore. And the judge rightly found the trial judge rightly found, this is totally viewpoint discrimination. You can't do that. And so you're, you're liable. So they they appeal on that ground. We intervened as Amicus because they appeal just the Free Speech side of things, not the religious expression side of things. And as part of every amicus brief, you have to start out with your statement of interest. This is who we are. And this is why we care about this lawsuit. This is why court you should be hearing from us. And the crux of TST statement of interest is this could have just as easily been us. What if instead of the United States, Catholic Bishops being offended, and so they call their friends at City Hall to go kick out the church militants. The exact same fact pattern happens they say we don't like those Satan's kick them out. Yep. Exactly. It's just as easily us is just as easily anyone in a minority viewpoint. You know, that's, that's an issue. So that's why we intervened.

Stephen Bradford Long 53:48
And I know, in my audience is probably sick of me saying this, but part of the reason why in my opinion, minority rights have been successful in the United States is because of religion of is because of freedom of speech. Yeah, that is, that is why freedom of speech exists to protect the minority. And so I have a theory that part of the reason why the terms free speech have become a right wing catchphrase. And the left has just kind of given it to them. And so, you know, you talk to you know, lefty, online socialists and you and you say the word free speech and they all cringe. Well, I think the reason they cringe is because we've, you know, probably the first place where we encountered the phrase free speech was from 4chan Trolls. On online and, and in there's like that immediate distaste and so we just, we just let go have the word and we just let go of the idea. But the thing that I always want to bring it back to is if if the precedent is set of D platforming and silencing people if that precedent has said, Who do you think will be the first people to be victimized by that? It it will be us, it will be queer people, it will be Satanist, it will be the religious minorities, it will be the the weird freaks on the fringes of society who freak out the mainstream. That is, that is what will happen if we set that precedent. If we call for the silencing in in the public square of people we don't like well, guess who will be the first ones that that turns back on, it's going to be us. And so the principle is what matters here? Because the principle is what protects all of us?

Matt Kezhaya 55:57
Yeah, well, that's you're spot on. And I go one step further. And point out that we have and you say this, or you state this, but this is a very artful turn of phrase, we have free speech rights, not for the freedom or not for the speech that we agree with. We haven't for the speech that we hate. Exactly. It's why we have free speech.

Stephen Bradford Long 56:18
It doesn't do any good. If it's just for the speech we're comfortable with. There's no use there. Yeah.

Matt Kezhaya 56:24
So you know, that's I mean, so they're the primary thing, the crux of why we intervened is justice easily been asked. Part of it also is a bit of a longer term strategy that I have at play here, I'd like to start doing more amicus briefs, because what I want is, for the first time that we have a case in front of a judge as plaintiff, I want them to have heard of who we are, and I want them to see that we are friends of the court. I want them to see that we know what the law is we're doing this you know, we're applying it properly all that business. So that when we actually do have a need from say, the Fourth Circuit in this particular case, they will have seen our work in the past they will have heard of us and they will have known haha, these aren't just bunch of jokes or as they they know what the First Amendment's about and so that's that's important that there's a reason why you go to any Supreme court docket, you see 50 Different Damn, Amicus filings, one for one or both sides. They they want their name in front of that Supreme Court so that when they need something for the Supreme Court, they're looked upon favorably they're familiar. So that was why we've, we've intervened.

Stephen Bradford Long 57:37
Yeah, it's fascinating. So I, I wanted to end on that note, that broader principle of free speech and freedom of religion. So before we end, what are your cat's names? You've you two cats have been coming in and out.

Matt Kezhaya 57:53
So we have we have the two cats. The one currently hanging out with me is Princess Princess. That's one. And then our other cat is usually just cat we call him cat. Sometimes it's a cat with many names. Sometimes it's Satan cat. Sometimes it's no cat because we live in Minnesota. Yeah, we're talking about Satan cut. Yes. Oh, is he and then the other. Mini Satan. The other one is also sometimes mini Satan. This one. That's

Stephen Bradford Long 58:29
amazing. Amazing. Beautiful. All right. Well, I think that is it for this show. Thank you, Matt, so much for joining me. And you're welcome back anytime.

Matt Kezhaya 58:39
Thank you for having me.

Stephen Bradford Long 58:40
You have to come back. The theme song is wild by eleventy seven. You can find it on Apple Music Spotify, or wherever you listen to music. The show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long and it is a production of rock candy recordings. As always, Hail Satan, LLC. And thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-ST satanist QA-nu

2022-10-11T08:06:12Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

ST_satanist_QA-nu
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
satanism, satan, people, satanic, satanist, question, lavey, individualism, satanists, satanic temple, tst, call, hail satan, anton lavey, community, religion, christianity, church, answer, life
SPEAKERS
Jack Matirko, Stephen Bradford Long

Stephen Bradford Long 00:28
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the spiritual discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network for more shows like this one go to rock candy recordings.com All right, well this week I am here with the fabulous end infernal Jack Metallica. He is the author of the four infernal use only blog on patios, the only satanic blog on Patheos. I might also add he is also a member of the Satanic Temple and is indeed a Satanist. Jack, welcome back to the show.

Jack Matirko 01:02
Hey, how you doing, man?

Stephen Bradford Long 01:04
I'm great, man a minute. It has been a minute. But you know, lots of life changes. Also. Congratulations on being a father now.

Jack Matirko 01:11
Thank you very much. We're very happy.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:13
I'm very, very proud of you. You have managed to not eat your child. Well done. So yeah, you know, parenthood kind of disrupts a lot of things as as it is supposed to do. So we haven't really talked to each other much but I hope you're doing well. Yeah,

Jack Matirko 01:31
I'm doing good. The blog has kind of been on hiatus. Oh, yeah, totally. Well, I adjust to this whole thing. But we've still been doing the the podcast me and Andy are the naked diner so nice. And I've been keeping things going great. My toe in the water as it is.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:45
That's fantastic. This is actually the first sacred tension episode recorded in my new studio here on the side of the mountain just outside of pisco National Forest way up here and bumfuck nowhere as long as the meth cannibals don't eat us, we'll be fine. It's very nice. It's very, very nice and pristine and quiet up here and we just got a new child ourselves. We actually got her today she's a tiny pink Toad tarantula. Oh, John ordered her in the mail. And so I had to fucking unpack. I had to unbox a tarantula today.

Jack Matirko 02:19
Is it on YouTube?

Stephen Bradford Long 02:20
No, no. I was too terrified. I was like, is she gonna like latch onto my face? Like a like a face hugger? Like what's going what's gonna go on? Like, I've never had a tarantula before but right now she's just this we got a junior. So she's like this tiny little ball of fluff and legs and she's cute, but

Jack Matirko 02:37
they are they're, they're really pretty passive spiders. They just live naturally out. Here's

Stephen Bradford Long 02:43
Oh, yeah, it's supposed to live for like 30 years, so it'll probably outlive me. I wanted to name it some like boring white mom name like baby boomer white mom name like Linda. But we decided to go with Elvira. So Elvira is the latest addition to the family. Oh, all right. Well, we are here to answer questions about Satanism. I'm a member of the Satanic Temple. I consider myself a Satanist. I consider myself a deeply religious person and I am a Satanist. My religion is Satanism. I am also a very ecumenical person. So for longtime listeners of the show, you notice that I have lots of Christians, lots of pagans, you know, I believe in cultivating ecumenical dialogue. And so that's a lot of what the show is, but my personal religious perspective is non theistic Satanism. And that tends to freak people out. That tends to stress a lot of people out, I get called lots of different things on social media, which is to be expected. I don't worry about that. I you know, I know what I'm taking on when I become a public Satanist. But it's an incredibly misunderstood religion. And so I thought that I would just bring my friend Jack on to answer some questions from Twitter and Instagram and my patrons and we got a ton of questions. Way too many that we can answer we're just going to go through a few I excluded a lot of questions because some of them were repeats and then there were also quite a few that I was not able to put down just because I'd already put the document together and they just kept rolling in today that also you know, I mean, it's an hour show Oh, yeah, exactly. It's an hour show I mean, we could like start a completely separate podcast like satanic q&a podcast like that obnoxious Catholic Answers website. And they do you know them they're they're atrocious, super homophobic and awful, but they they have the Catholic Answers YouTube channel, we could do a satanic answers, but I think that would be kind of antithetical to what it means to be a Satanist.

Jack Matirko 04:48
Yeah, we'll kind of probably get into some of that with some Exactly. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 04:52
exactly. Okay, so first things first, just getting the caveats out of the way we are not spokespersons for the Satanic Temple. Well, we also don't speak for any other Satanists, we really only speak for ourselves in our own satanic practices. And we, you know, speak from our observations, but the truth is, is that we're just two guys with, you know, with microphones and we do not speak for Satanism as a whole. Right? Okay, well, so Jack, do you want to go ahead and choose a question to start this off

Jack Matirko 05:20
with? Well, I think we'll start with this first one, this one from is it uni or uni? Uni? Yeah, okay. Okay, so they asked, it's difficult for me to see Satanism as anything but simply a reactionary stance to Catholicism and evangelicalism. Why not choose Buddhism or any other ideology that completely issues itself of this dichotomy rather than effectively, quote, choose aside, unquote, in their dichotomy? Yeah.

Stephen Bradford Long 05:44
So if I could, like maybe translate that some, you know, he has difficulty seeing Satanism as anything other than a reactionary stance to Catholicism and evangelicalism. But that really, why choose a side between this binary of Christian or against Christian, you know, why not choose something completely outside of that dichotomy, or binary is basically what I'm hearing him asked here.

Jack Matirko 06:10
Right. So my take on it, when I read that question, I immediately remembered and the only way I'm going to be able to explain this is to kind of slip into pop culture references. Yeah, let's do it. So you're gonna have to forgive me, but that's the way it's going to have to go. So in the first episode of community, are you familiar with that show? At all? I

Stephen Bradford Long 06:27
am. Yep. Okay.

Jack Matirko 06:28
So in the first episode, at the end there, there's this bit where Troy was asking, he was complaining that everybody gave him crap for wearing his high school Letterman's jacket. And he's like, What if I take it off, then that looks weak? And the answer was, look, if you leave it on to piss them off, or take it off to make them happy? Either way, you're doing it for that? Yes. So my sense there is and if you watch the hail satan documentary, there's a bit in there where Jasper Peterson says, you know that it's post Christian, they're leaving Christianity behind and taking taking with them. So the concept there is okay, they it fits into their dichotomy, but we completely ignoring that dichotomy altogether and saying, it's irrelevant, it doesn't matter anymore. We took this part, that means something to us, and that's fine. Yes, exactly. What if we stopped using it to appease them? That would be worse, in my opinion? No,

Stephen Bradford Long 07:21
no, I totally agree. And, you know, I wrote an article called why Satan, you know, where I tried to answer the question, why Satan of all, you know, of all the religious figures, or religions that you could choose why a symbol that fills you with such revulsion, or that fills the public with such revulsion? And I tried to answer some of the most, you know, basic questions that I get all the time, I did record that article as a mini podcast episode several episodes back, so you can go check that out if you want. But I really like the idea of Satanism emerging from Christianity, kinda, I mean, it isn't a perfect analogy by any means. But kind of similar to the way Buddhism emerged from Hinduism, in that, you know, religions always are morphing into each other and out of each other, and are giving birth to new religions all the time. And that isn't remarkable at all. And so to me, this is not about being anti Christian. You know, to me, my Satanism is not a negative, it isn't about what I'm against. It's rather an embodiment of a positive worldview. And I'm taking the symbol of Satan with me because I think it's easier to reconstruct a new religion from the remains of what's come before and I come from a predominantly Christian world. And we all do in the here in the West, I end personally, I come from a deeply religious background, and that symbolism that mythology, that language that liturgy, those stories, it's all deep within my blood, right? It makes up part of who I am. And so I one of the reasons why I've chosen Satanism, over a religion like Buddhism, is because it's closer to home, but it's post Christian, you know, it's like as I'm journeying out of my Christianity, it's like that religious scholar in hail. Satan said, you know, it isn't anti Christian. It's post Christian. We've just taken Satan with us. I don't see my religion as anti Christian in any way. I see it as anti authoritarian.

Jack Matirko 09:34
It's a bit like asking Marvel Comics. Why call it Asgard? If you don't believe in Thor,

Stephen Bradford Long 09:40
yes, you know, yeah, precisely. You know, it's also I'm anti authoritarianism. And there's plenty of that within Christianity that I objected to. And I think because Christianity is the dominant religion here in America. A lot of our opposition it's is towards Christianity. it but it isn't actually towards Christianity. It's towards those corrupt and evil and theocratic manifestations of Christianity. There are plenty of forms of Christianity that I have no problem with, you know, like, you know, super chill Episcopalians or, you know, Quakers who get together and you know, support their trans friends and meditate every week, like I have no problem with any of that. So it doesn't have anything to do with being anti Christian. It has to do with being anti authoritarian.

Jack Matirko 10:27
Yeah, an anti theocratic, anti theocratic pro pluralism would probably be the right way to put a positive spin on that, right.

Stephen Bradford Long 10:35
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I don't know. Do you have any more thoughts on this one? Because I hear this all the time. And it's really it's really hard for people to understand. I don't I don't know. P. I think this is the actually one of the biggest things that I come up against people struggle all the time with understanding that Satanism does not necessarily mean anti Christian. And maybe this also has to do with the legacy of Anton LaVey, who kind of had a very Nietzsche as opposition to what he called the slave morality of Christianity. Maybe that has to do with it, but it is not necessarily so.

Jack Matirko 11:11
Yeah, no, I don't think I have too much more to add on that. I think that however, the terminology came about, because it's not like this was invented out of whole cloth when TSD came around five years ago, you know, this has been an idea for a very long time. Yeah. So you know, it's not like we're just making this up as we go along. There's all there's already a culture in place there. It's just a very small niche minority that right, most people aren't exposed to.

Stephen Bradford Long 11:41
Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, let me choose a question here. Nick asks, Are there spiritual or theistic Satanists? Well?

Jack Matirko 11:50
I would say, yes, there are people who identify as Satanists who do have some sort of theological belief, right? I don't know if that necessarily like I think if you game it out far enough, that doesn't actually like hold up in any constructive sense. I think it doesn't actually work, because the embodiment of Satanism is self worship. So to have any kind of deity doesn't necessarily make sense to me. And I think, at least in terms of, at least in terms of the Satanic Temple, and I think probably the Church of Satan to this idea that, you know, if you're trying to follow what is the the the truth, according to the best available evidence, there's no reason to presuppose theism at all. So I don't know where those people get that from, but people are going to call themselves they're going to call themselves eventually, you kind of come down to a labeling issue where, you know, like, if somebody says, I believe in God, the next question should be well, do you need to define what you mean by that? Right? Because that could be anything to any number of people.

Stephen Bradford Long 12:46
Right? Yeah. And my thoughts on this is, I take a very simplistic definition of Satanism. And I'd actually like to hear your thoughts on this, because I think that the most basic definition of religious Satanism is a religious veneration for the figure of Satan and just kind of as an umbrella term Satanism, that is, in my view, all Satanism is right. And then it can contain a multitude of different theologies, perspectives, philosophies, beliefs, practices, etc.

Jack Matirko 13:21
Sure, but it would all fall under that same umbrella, the same way that the same way that Protestantism and Mormonism and everything falls under the umbrella of Christianity.

Stephen Bradford Long 13:30
Exactly. And so that that's my thoughts on this. And so with that understanding of Satanism, then yes, there are spiritual and theistic Satanists, there are some forms of Satanism in the pagan world. I don't really know much about paganism at all, but that that's what I hear from my pagan friends. There's also a branch, another satanic organization that branched off of Church of Satan called the Temple of set, and they are a theistic satanic organization, but with kind of a spin because they actually understand Satan as being the Egyptian God set. And so that, that becomes like weirdly complicated, like, yes, they're Satanists, but they're ultimately Egyptian Neo pagans. Yeah,

Jack Matirko 14:17
I guess that's the right way to put it, or something like that. And it takes an awful lot of reading to get through Aquino. So it's, yeah, it's, it's always clear. Yeah.

Stephen Bradford Long 14:28
I do not have the energy for that. Yeah, Aquino was his name. He was a high ranking official and in Anton LaVey Church of Satan in the early days. And so one of the things that that is really interesting about those about Anton LaVey is that he was pretty ambiguous about whether he believed in Satan or not, he was he mostly said that he did not. He mostly said, you know, we're Satan, or we're atheists. We do not believe in a god or gods or Satan, but then in a lot of ways, he kind of betrayed that I idea, you know, it seems he believed in magic, it seems that he did believe at times in some sort of Satan. So there was a lot of ambiguity within the Church of Satan. And I think it was that it was that atmosphere that helped to cultivate that, you know Aquino in the temple of set

Jack Matirko 15:15
well, yeah, cuz okay no thought that declaration of atheism was kind of a betrayal of the original principles like

Stephen Bradford Long 15:23
yeah apps and Aquino thought LaVey was actually a theistic Satanists. Yeah. He he thought that, and so yeah, it's really interesting.

Jack Matirko 15:33
Not bad. We just need to clear that up. Yes. Now was he still thinks that instil render the template set and actually published the book last year?

Stephen Bradford Long 15:40
Oh, I didn't know that. I haven't been following him at all. I mean, the how, just out of curiosity, how big is the temple of say,

Jack Matirko 15:48
I have no idea. I couldn't tell you. It's not something I spend a whole lot of time focused on really like what other groups are doing necessarily, you know? Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 15:57
me too. All right. So moral of the story is, yes, there are spiritual and theistic Satanists, but I would say that Satanism is predominantly an atheistic religion, or a non theistic religion. Sure. Okay. Do you want to do you want to take a question? Well, let's

Jack Matirko 16:15
see. Let's try this one for fun. Kate asks, What is your personal opinion on what the goal of Satanism is maintaining separation of church and state is great and all but I can't believe it's the end goal. I personally don't even think that's necessarily the primary goal. It's just an important issue to a lot of people who identify as Satanists. I think one of the things that's interesting about TST is that it never has purported to represent all Satanists. Yeah. You know, it's, this is what we're doing. And if you want to help do this stuff. Cool. Come over here. That's what we're doing.

Stephen Bradford Long 16:50
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's one thing that I really appreciate about TST is that they don't claim to be the one true satanic church the way Church of Satan does, or to define Satanism. No, I was thinking about this question, too. And I guess the question that I came up with was, or the answer I came up with was, why does it have to have a purpose? You know, I don't I don't really think in church or goals, you know?

Jack Matirko 17:18
Well, I mean, I think at its at its base, fundamental core, the goal of Satanism in terms of, you know, satanic practice, is for you to live a fulfilling, happy, satisfied life.

Stephen Bradford Long 17:33
Yes, absolutely. I agree with that. Everything else is

Jack Matirko 17:37
kind of built on top of that, right. So if you're doing activism as a Satanist, that's fine. That's something you feel you need to do to make the kind of world that you want to live in.

Stephen Bradford Long 17:48
Yeah. And, you know, one of the reasons why I'm a Satanist is and why I'm a religious person. And, you know, I've, you know, given myself lots and lots of answers to this question many times, like, why am I involved in the church? Or why am I involved in this particular religious practice? You know, I've had to confront that question several times over the years, and I've often given myself, you know, these profound and meaningful answers. Now, I just kind of cut through that through all that bullshit. And just admit to myself, I do this because it's fun.

Jack Matirko 18:18
There is a lot of the NL tell you since yes, we've had the kid. It's weird how quickly the volume gets turned down on a lot of other stuff, you know, Oh, yeah. Before I would wake up in the morning, turn on the news, catch up with what's going on, sit down, read things, write my article for the day. And now it's like, wait, I can just hang out with a baby and watch this and be straight for two hours. That's, that's awesome. Let's do that.

Stephen Bradford Long 18:40
Let's do that instead. Right. So that is more fun for you. It is for now at least Yeah, it is for now. Yeah. And, you know, I think one of the reasons why I do what I do, why a lot of religious people do what they do is because it makes life more fun and interesting. And it's a form of play. And I don't think that that I don't think that that should be a mark against religious practice. Those of us for whom that's true, I think we should just admit that that's the way it is and embrace it like Satanism. You know, as Mason said, In the movie, Hail Satan, it Mason says, this makes life fun. I think that's one of the main reasons why I do it. It makes my life fun and interesting. It also, you know, it's a meaning making machine to, you know, it's a scaffold of that provides symbolism and meaning there's all that, you know, there's all that deeper stuff, but I think really, I wouldn't do it if I wasn't having fun. And to me, that's enough. Like, to me, that's enough of a goal is that I'm having fun doing this, so why the fuck not?

Jack Matirko 19:41
Yeah, exactly. And who's to tell you not to so precisely and

Stephen Bradford Long 19:45
and, you know, that goes to what you're saying, which is, you know, ultimately the goal of Satan is to help people live more fulfilled meaningful lives and to enable us to do that as best we can. And so for me, having fun is a part of me being fulfilled as a human being, you know,

Jack Matirko 20:02
right. And so like going back to the the other question about why call it Satanism? If if by applying that that, you know, mythological framework to a destruction ritual that you do with your friends is enjoyable and fulfilling and cathartic, then what's the harm?

Stephen Bradford Long 20:20
And then do it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you know, I think that this is one of I don't know, I've, I want to get your opinion on this. I think that a lot of humanism and atheism in general, it's really good. You know, I love a lot of atheist content online, but but it isn't as fun. Do you know what I mean? Like, it isn't as fun. Yeah, I know. And I really think I really, really think that that might be one reason why theistic religion, you know, often beats out atheism,

Jack Matirko 20:58
because it's because it's more fun as a show. There's pageantry. There's Yeah, exactly. Oh, there's definitely something to that. In fact, when we were doing the interviews for the hail satan documentary,

Stephen Bradford Long 21:11
yes. By the way, could we briefly pause and just tell people what that movie is? Since we keep bringing it up? Oh, yeah. Well,

Jack Matirko 21:17
I mean, that's the documentary of the last.

Stephen Bradford Long 21:21
I'm gonna say five, five years of the satanic four years. Yeah, about that. Somewhere in there. Yeah. And it's great. I interviewed Penny Lane, the director, the interview is called hail satan. Of course, you can go and listen to that 30 minute interview I did. And also Hail Satan is now out on streaming. You can rent it across all the streaming platforms. So please go watch

Jack Matirko 21:41
it. Depending on when you put this out. It might be on Hulu comes out on Hulu, August 22.

Stephen Bradford Long 21:46
Yeah, it'll be on Hulu by the time this comes out. So go watch it on Hulu.

Jack Matirko 21:52
So when we were doing those interviews, I was talking to Penny about the interaction between Satanic Temple and the atheist movement, because that's where I came in from. And I made the point that, you know, you put the bathroom at statue there next to those 10 commandments. And it's a statement. Yeah, it's big. It's brash, it's right there, as opposed to in Florida when American Atheists put in that bench, their secular bench that just had some quotes from you know, Carl Sagan and stuff on it.

Stephen Bradford Long 22:23
God damn boring Carl Sagan,

Jack Matirko 22:25
just a boring bench. And like, it's so in some respects, just adding this this metaphor makes it makes it more powerful. Right? The it makes it alive. Yeah. Yeah, it makes it alive, in a way gives a story in context in a way that just, you know, wrote atheists can't?

Stephen Bradford Long 22:41
Yes, precisely. Well, and you know, it embodies a positive value. And I know that humanism does, too. But I often wonder if there is a if, you know, I think that because we're human beings, we respond really powerfully to story and symbol, right. And so when we try to have a message that doesn't involve those things, I think it's just harder. So anyway, I forget how we got on onto this track, but

Jack Matirko 23:12
personal opinion on the goal of Satanism. Oh, yeah, and I don't Yeah, so the end result is that there's no one goal, right, everyone who identifies as satanist is going to have their own goals and ideals, and sometimes they line up and sometimes they don't. So

Stephen Bradford Long 23:27
results may vary. Exactly. Moving on. Here's another issue that comes up all the time. Michael asks, Is it possible for Satanists to not be social Darwinists given live A's general outlook and aping of Ragnar red beard and the Satanic Bible? Also, what is the relationship between fascism and the satanic community? Is that overblown? Okay, so for some background, Anton LaVey, was who popularized Satanism I don't think he invented Satanism, but he popularized it. He kind of codified the first formal version of Satanism, but it existed before him. And he was really influenced by Nietzsche by Master morality, slave morality concepts of Nietzsche, he was influenced heavily by iron Rand, and he was influenced heavily by a really obscure author named Ragnar Red Beard who wrote correct me if I'm wrong. Might is right. That's the name of the book. That's the name of the book. Okay. And so he kind of copied a lot of red beard in the Satanic Bible. So because of this modern Satanism, of the LaVeyan variety has largely been a religion of the right in a way, you know, it's been a religion of class hierarchy. And LaVey himself was very anti gay, he was anti abortion he was and so he, you know, he was not the liberationist that many people, I think, have the impression that he was, but this legacy has continued to live on and peep will often assume that I am a social Darwinist because I label myself as a as a Satanist or some kind of ridiculously radical individualist and you know who embraces kind of Randian selfishness, right? These very simple answer is no, you don't have to do any of that in order to be you can complete in fact, you can completely reject LaVey and everything he taught and still be a Satanist. Because Satanism is an umbrella term, and all it means is a religious veneration for the symbol of Satan. Well,

Jack Matirko 25:36
that's all it you know, I think the thing there is the LaVeyan perspective is very, you know, it's it's more immediate, right? It's, it's, I'm going to do what's good for me fuck everyone else, you know? Yeah. Yeah. As opposed to, you know, when you look at a more anyone in Satanism, who's more liberal minded, more community based there, they're going to say, well, it's more of a rising tide raises all boats thing. I'm still doing what's good for me, like doing good for other people is good for me in the long run, because it makes society better. It's kind of the same argument you make for why we have public schools.

Stephen Bradford Long 26:08
Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's, let's hang out on that for a bit. Before we move on to the next point. I really think that LaVey bypassed a lot of the romantic literary foundations of Satanism. So he was much more informed by pop culture by Aleister Crowley, you know, people like that, which is fine. Nothing wrong with that. But

Jack Matirko 26:31
I think a lot of it was just LaVey wanting to appeal to people who were tired of hippie culture. I mean, you have to remember this was San Francisco. Yeah. 60s, right. So yes, there were disgruntled people who were pissed off at all this peace and love shit. And he was just trying to cash in on that. Really, if you get, you know, I think there's a part of LaVey that was just I'm gonna say this because I think it'll sell more books. You know, I have that in him. And to say, there's not is too i, they go through his history all the time. And they're just like, oh, he worked in the carnival. He was Alliant. Okay, so at least he's got a little bit of huckster and him somewhere. Exactly. You say that everything in the book is genuine, is almost a betrayal to who he was as a person, I think.

Stephen Bradford Long 27:17
Yeah, I 100% agree. But you know, I think the literary underpinnings of Satan if you've read, first of all, Milton, but especially Shelly Blake, Byron, Hugo, they connected Satan with revolution with enlightenment with defending the downtrodden. Right. And

Jack Matirko 27:38
it was it was the same kind of thing. Then it was this this objection to a theocratic, you know, state

Stephen Bradford Long 27:45
really? Yeah, exactly. And so I find myself much more in line with the romantic Satan of Anatole France or Byron, than I do with Anton LaVey. Yeah. So moral of the story. Yes, absolutely. You can be a Satanist. It is more than possible, because there are a ton of us who are not social Darwinists. And frankly, I hope that this social Darwinist aspect of Satanism dies out I think it is, I think they're pretty dead. They're, they're pretty inactive. Okay. But no, they're just Republicans now. They're just Republicans. Okay, so moving on. Moving on to the next part of this. What is the relationship between fascism and the satanic community? Is that overblown? Okay, so in the book, children of Lucifer by Ruben van Leeuwen, which is a fantastic scholarly analysis of Satanism and the history of Satanism. There were a few people who took some of Anton the vase teachings to terrifying extremes. I forget his name, there is the guy who founded the order of the nine angles. Do you know I know about this

Jack Matirko 28:51
check name off the top of my head. But yeah, really what the

Stephen Bradford Long 28:55
order of the nine angles which did embody some pretty horrifying fascist beliefs, there have been people who have some kind of fascist or fascist, ask

Jack Matirko 29:07
fascist, I think is the way that you're talking like Boyd writes, in part, right. And it's like that and and to some extent there. That's, that's that other part of the Free Speech argument, which is, you know, I think a lot of ways when you look at somebody like like Boyd Reiser, and particularly parfait, you're talking about people who genuinely believe that people should be allowed to say whatever they want to say, even if it's horrible, right, right. Yeah. So yeah, they're not necessarily standing up for the idea as much as they're standing up for the right to express the idea which is splitting hairs in a very weird way and problematic and it gets into all this all this stuff with Antifa that I didn't want to go into.

Stephen Bradford Long 29:48
Yeah, let's not go down that rabbit hole on my podcast. But needless to say, I think that yeah, no, I agree with you. I think it is very problematic because I if You become wedded to these causes when you take that, that kind of free speech, absolutist stance, you know, you you find yourself by default wedded to some pretty horrific ideas, just because you are making that argument and the sort of people that that defends by default. And I think that that can be pretty toxic. Yeah. You know, I think that when we, I'm, you know, I call myself a free speech absolutist, with the exception of, you know, when speech is illegal, and I actually think that a lot of the laws that we have in place for speech are pretty good, you know, no inciting violence, right. That's slander, where

Jack Matirko 30:37
that gets tripped up as with the what constitutes violence. And

Stephen Bradford Long 30:41
yes, that is, that is the issue. And so, you know, like, when I'm moderating any comments on my blog, I try to, you know, only delete comments that are that would veer towards violence or, or slander. But anyway, all that aside, I think that the fascism link, is there, particularly with LaVeyan Satanism? I don't think that it is necessarily so I don't think that there is something intrinsically about Satanism that attracts it. I think there is something intrinsically about LaVeyan Satanism that attracts it?

Jack Matirko 31:17
Well, I think that there's there's something about fascist ideology that attracts people who feel that the world is treated them unfairly, whether that's the case or not? Absolutely. And I think that a lot of people who I think there's an overlap in that demographic, I think that there's a lot of people who become Satanists who think that the world has been unfair to them in some way, shape, or form. Yes. So I understand that there's some weird crossover there

Stephen Bradford Long 31:43
but also don't a lot of like modern fascist, a lot of them are just edge lords. I mean, not to say that they don't have real you know, that that they don't have real consequences in the real world or real ideologies. I think a lot of them do. But you know, there's this edge Lord ism that comes with online fascism. And you know, there is kind of also an edge Lord element to Satanism, you have to, at the very least be okay with offending people. And so those things can do kind of attract.

Jack Matirko 32:09
Yeah. But they're sometimes kind of, yeah, say that, that, you know, their LinkedIn anyway, I think that they just have a similar demographic appeal.

Stephen Bradford Long 32:18
They have they have an affinity, but they aren't necessarily linked in any particular way. Plus, I mean, I have yet to meet anyone who's even on the right in tst. I mean, everyone in TST is pretty far left to some degree. You know, of course, there's a lot of political diversity there. But it's all kind of on, you know, it left of center left of center, at least left of

Jack Matirko 32:42
center for America, at least, sir. Yeah, for sure.

Stephen Bradford Long 32:45
All right. Here's one that I think is really interesting. And this is a question that comes from a lot of and I forgot to put this guy's name down who asked this question, but this question is echoed from a lot of Christian people in my audience. So this guy asks, My perception of American Satanism is that it is very much an individualist practice and religious framework. I think that the individualist mindset and US culture is toxic and bad for our overall mental health as a society. I think community mindedness and solidarity are far healthier social attitudes, not that all individualism is bad, but I hope you understand what I mean by toxic individualism. Is there a form of Satanism that can foster community and solidarity rather than individualism? For individualism sake? Am I just incorrect in my perception?

Jack Matirko 33:36
I mean, yeah, I would say obviously, there is

Stephen Bradford Long 33:40
obviously yes. And you know, if you take if you take even five seconds to look at the work TST is doing the answer is obviously, yes. I mean, this is a community kind of grassroots movement, people experience lots of wonderful community within tst. You know, of course, we can support one another. And of course, we can come together as a community and group identity. And of course, we can champion others like, of course, there, there is nothing about that, that is opposed to Satanism as a religion, nothing at all. Instead, I think what he has in mind is LaVeyan Satanism. And, you know, this person is probably not read LaVeyan Satanism, but that's the impression that a lot of people have,

Jack Matirko 34:28
I don't even think this is necessary. I don't think this is limited to Satanism at all. I think the kind of toxic individualism they're talking about, you see, through a pretty big swath of the far right right now. 1% Right. I think you see it in atheism with people like Sargon of Akkad. Or, yeah, you know, some of the the mythicist folks who are a little too much well, even Jordan Peterson, I think would probably fall into that toxic individualism.

Stephen Bradford Long 34:57
I was I was just about to bring up Jordan Peterson

Jack Matirko 35:00
Yeah, so yeah, that's not limited to Satanism. That's just America. And

Stephen Bradford Long 35:05
yes, you know what I've actually been thinking quite a bit about this. And I might write an article on this, for me, my Satanism, when it comes to individualism versus collect, you know, quote unquote collectivism, I think that we have these two switches inside of us as homosapiens. And they're both good. They're both healthy, depending on context. One is the Jaron Lanier, who is a really brilliant computer guy and philosopher, he talks about how we all have the lone wolf in the pack within us and how it's like a switch that gets hit. And so sometimes we feel intensely communal, and we have a very intense group identity. And then sometimes we have a very solitary identity, individual identity. And so for me, it isn't about being stuck in one or the other. And I, I really think that this whole idea of individualism versus community, I think the whole thing is just a fucking false binary. I think it's a false dichotomy. I think both are helpful. And both are unhelpful, depending on the situation. And for me, it's just a matter of cultivating the mindfulness to know which which one I'm in, you know, there are times when intense nationalism is really ugly, and awful, that's a form of collectivism. But then at the same time, you know, my collective identity as being a gay person in the gay community. And you know, these are my people, this is my tribe, and we're going to get through this together. And, you know, coming together with a bunch of queer people is amazing. And having that collective identity together is amazing. And so there are times when it's harmful and awful. There are other times when it's great. So too, with individualism. I just think that, that it's a stupid false binary. And we think that we have to be caught in one mode or the other, you know, stuck. And I don't think that that's true. I think that

Jack Matirko 37:05
I think that the thing there's like, when you talk about, you know, community mindedness, I think that, especially in just the nature of the way that that charity work kind of operates now, since it's all there's all these competing things that need resources, and they're all fighting for the same, you know, pile of attention and money and whatnot, that there's a lot of pressure, you know, when when you sign up for our cause, to, you know, give as much of yourself as you can. And at some point, the individualist aspect comes to the point where it just like, I feel like I've given enough I feel like I've contributed as much as I am comfortable with before it starts to be a detriment to me.

Stephen Bradford Long 37:49
Yeah, exactly.

Jack Matirko 37:50
And that's what leads to burnout. You know,

Stephen Bradford Long 37:52
yes, it is. And so to me, I think part of the individualism, it within Satanism for me is not so much, you know, having an iron Randian level of intense individualism, but rather it has to do with mindfulness, it has to do with being present to what state I'm in. And, you know, I think that collectivism or collective trance states, or whatever you want to call them are sources of some of the greatest pleasure that we can experience as human beings, they're good, you know, they can be good, but at the same time, they're also some of their sources of greatest suffering and harm and violence that we can experience. You know, when we get into a hive mind state, the hive can be wonderful and beautiful work can be absolutely bloody and awful and horrific. And so to me, it's about being mindful, not losing myself so much, that I lose the mindfulness of knowing what's right and wrong. And so to me, that's very much what my Satanism is about, because ultimately, Satan in the myth, you know, he was kind of part of a hive, he was part of heaven until he said, No, this, this isn't right. There's something wrong here. And I want to be able to retain that ability. So I still want to be able to enjoy collectivism and communal efforts, but I want to retain enough of myself to be able to say no, yeah, when it goes wrong. Exactly. That to me, is what it comes down to.

Jack Matirko 39:24
Because I mean, hey, I mean, the Nazis were very community minded. Very. So it's not, that's not an inherent good, I guess is the

Stephen Bradford Long 39:35
thing. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. All right. Do you want to choose the question?

Jack Matirko 39:39
Okay, let's go with what is the satanic position on Jesus? Was he the son of God? Is there a satanic afterlife?

Stephen Bradford Long 39:45
Okay. Yeah, this is a great question. This is one of my Christian followers, obviously on Twitter who's I think been pretty peeved by my Satanism, okay, which is fine. Also, there is a follow up question to Who this that? That's further down. And I'll go ahead and tack it on. So it'll be several questions. He says also, is Satan a fallen angel in Satanism? If yes, does that mean, you acknowledge a higher power than Satan? Okay, so this is actually a really important question, because I think it demonstrates the huge paradigm difference that we're working from. So the satanic position on Jesus, first of all, I, if we're assuming that Satanism is predominantly non theistic? Yeah, so if we're working from the non theistic satanic model, Jesus was not the Son of God, because God has not met his burden of proof. And is there a satanic afterlife? No, because we reject supernaturalism. Now, my personal approach to this is, I'm not an anti theist, meaning I believe that there is no God, I am simply a theist, meaning, I have not been convinced of the burden of proof for the existence of God. So maybe there's a God out there somewhere, you know, maybe he's hiding behind, you know, a galaxy somewhere. But I, I personally have no reason to believe in something that that I don't think has sufficient evidence. And so that's my approach to this. So is there a satanic afterlife? Nope. Because I don't think the evidence has is in on that. There could be maybe I don't, I don't know. I don't really care. But my default is no. Yeah. You have anything to add to that?

Jack Matirko 41:28
That that's about right. I would add that in terms of like, my position on Jesus. Is that as a character, a bad guy? pretty okay. Like, yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 41:38
he's pretty fine. He's pretty good.

Jack Matirko 41:40
There's some good stuff in the Sermon on the Mount. Okay. Yeah. And, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 41:44
there's also a lot of the mythology of Christ that I really love it. It was that mythology that compelled me to stay within the Christian world for so long. And in many ways, I am still moving through the Christian world, because I love so very much the mythology that has been built up around the figure of Christ.

Jack Matirko 42:04
I appreciate those stories at least as much as Harry Potter.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:07
Yeah, exactly. But you know, I don't really think you know, as for this specific details, was Satan II. Not Satan was, uh, was Jesus a real person? Did he actually walk on earth? You know what, I think all that stuff is going to vary from Satanists to Satanists. And then moving on to the latter part of his question. Is Satan, a fallen angel and Satanism? Well, so Satanism is nontheistic, we use a symbolic understanding of Satan. And so according to the myth, yes, he is. He is a fallen angel. That's the whole point of Satan is that he is that he rebelled against the theocracy and undue authority of God in the story. And so he is the unbowed will who chose to stand up and not align himself with the corrupt that God represented. If yes, does that mean you acknowledge a higher power than Satan? No, because we believe it's a story. It's a story. Okay, so and so here's, here's the thing. This is where I think I've been trying to think about how to communicate this, I believe, I believe that Satan is not real. Okay, obviously, but Satan, and Satanism permeate my life, almost as if it were real, and it guides my life and informs my life in such a real and tangible way. And what I have a hard time explaining to people is that it is, I believe that Satan is not a real figure. I also live and breathe Satanism, and it has a real impact on my life. It changes my life profoundly. And so trying to explain, I was thinking like, how do I explain this to a theist? And, and basically, I came up with Okay, so think of all the ways you're really let's say, you're an Anglican. Let's say you're an Anglican priest. So think of all the ways Christ, how real Christ is to you, and how that has transformed your life and guides your life in profound ways. Well, guess what? I believe that your Christ isn't real, but you have that experience. Anyway. That's the power of religion. That's the power of imagination and story. That's the power of play that even though something isn't real, it still has power over us to quote Dumbledore from Harry Potter just because it isn't or just because it's in your mind doesn't mean it isn't real. It means it's it's real, just in a different way in a less tangible way, but it still has it's

Jack Matirko 44:53
kind of eerie. The GK Chesterton quote, fairy tales are more than true, not because they teach you The dragons exist, but because they teach you the dragons can be defeated.

Stephen Bradford Long 45:03
Exactly. Yeah, precisely. And so is there a higher power than Satan? No, because I don't believe in the supernatural. Satan has a story. But that is not to say that Satanism does not have a real impact on my life. Right? Is there anything else you'd add to that?

Jack Matirko 45:22
No, I think that that, that was a pretty solid answer.

Stephen Bradford Long 45:25
Great. All right. So let's just let's choose one last question, or one or two last questions here. Here's a funny one that we can go over real fast. Why is the Church of Satan so inactive? Is it just a relic that fails to appreciate how dynamic organizations can be come on man develop or die from Frederick land? All right, you'd have to ask them, you'd have to ask them. It's tweet at them. They won't answer your question, as has been proven again and again on Twitter, but take it to them see what they say.

Jack Matirko 45:57
All right. If we can plug the documentary one more time, in the special features on the DVD, there is an extended interview with a member of the Church of Satan revealing his opinions. I didn't know that which which member was it? I don't remember, I was too transfixed by his shiny jacket.

Stephen Bradford Long 46:14
Oh, they do like their shiny jacket. It really, really

Jack Matirko 46:18
is the thing it is a bit of pomp and I don't know, I was thinking lately that the issue with the Church of Satan and LaVey is teachings in general is that their position is We are the premier satanic organization and we are successful. But if you read through of a the entire point there is well defined success for yourself. So yes, it's like, it's there's a lot of this eternity Bible. That's a really shitty self help book, you know?

Stephen Bradford Long 46:46
Yes, there is. They also, you know, you were mentioning his shiny jacket. They are the satanic equivalent of the Catholic High liturgy, queens that you always encounter, you know, usually the trads, who, whose dream is to go off and live in fabulous opulence and a castle that overlooks you know, some flea ridden peasant town where everyone's dying of bubonic plague. You know, that's like the TRad dream is to go back to the Benedictine rule and live in solitary confinement with a bunch of religious lunatics and they are so into the pageantry, and the vestments and the ruffles. They fucking live for that shit. That's, that's really what church of Satan reminds me of. Okay, so here's, here's one last question that we can end on. And this is from listener, Ken, and he says, What does it take to be a member of tsp? Do you meet weekly like church? What have you done with tsp? Or how have you contributed? Okay, so to become a member of TSP, just go to their website, click the Join button, it is free. But ultimately, that's just a it just means that you're registered as a member, being registered as a as a member is entirely what you make of it. You know, some people join just because it's fun, just because it's fun to say that they signed up for a satanic organization. I mean, it's it's preferable, I think it's, I think it's best to sign up as a member, if you actually agree with the seven tenets of the Satanic Temple and shouldn't you know, want to live in accordance with them is to the best of your ability. But ultimately, it's entirely what you make of it. Your level of involvement is entirely on you. And if you call yourself a Satanist, then you're a Satanist. And it's pretty, I think it's really that simple.

Jack Matirko 48:38
Yeah. And I don't I mean, I know that at headquarters in Salem, they do a monthly kind of like a salon kind of thing, where they'll get together and talk about, you know, some philosophy books or whatever,

Stephen Bradford Long 48:51
satanic salon. Oh, that sounds awesome. I didn't know they did that.

Jack Matirko 48:55
Yeah, that's, that's, that's what counts is there, you know, regular meetings for the tax exemptions. I'm really we're looking to I don't want to give too much away. But I'm hoping that the Arizona chapter we've been talking to our local humanist society, because they have a building and with any luck, we'll we'll we're gonna start trying to do something like that with them. That would

Stephen Bradford Long 49:15
be awesome. So do you meet weekly like church? It depends. Some groups do.

Jack Matirko 49:21
We have a lot of brunches out here? And I know a few other chapters do things like that too. Yeah. Satanic picnics, picnics. Yeah, camping trip.

Stephen Bradford Long 49:30
I don't because I'm kind of a I'm a lone solitary satanist out here in the mountains. And I also don't really have much time for on site involvement. Just because I work so much. So a lot of my involvement is online. I talked to a lot of Satanists like Jacques here and I write quite a bit about Satanism. I do also donate to the Satanic Temple and Satanism is is very much part of my life, even though I don't attend an on site place.

Jack Matirko 50:03
Yeah. And it's, it's tricky if you're if you're somewhere that doesn't have, you know, a chapter that's doing events and coordinating stuff like that. Or if you're in a small town, and you're the only one there. Yeah, it is, it's, there's not really a way to to participate with the organization really, in any way like that. I mean, I think if the Satanic Temple is in power is participating in what the Satanic Temple is doing, I think like, if you're in Missouri, you could write your senators, state senators and state Congress, people and Governor. If you're in Arizona, same thing with Scottsdale lawsuit, things like that. Or if you're in a state where there is some, you know, abortion ban law coming down, right, your congress people that to me would be, you know, a form of participation in the goals of what DSD is doing. And you don't need a grip for that. You can just sit down at your computer, find your representatives and right, yeah, and your letters at them all day long.

Stephen Bradford Long 51:00
To me, it's really about how do I how do I live satanic Lee? Yeah, you know, how do I, in my day to day life embody these values? How do I embody the seven tenets on a day to day basis, and I do the best I can. And so that, to me is how I live my Satanism is how do I embody these values? And the myth of Satan? How do I become Satan? How do I become Baphomet? You know, and holding within myself, you know, resisting false binaries, and resisting social taboos, just for the sake of just for their own sake, you know, stuff like that. I also donate to TST. And that's a really tangible way that you can support TSDS work. So yeah, there are lots of ways to be a Satanist. There. There are lots of ways to do this. Indeed. All right. Well, I think that's about I mean, we have like, reasonably much questions. But that's, that's all we can do. Yeah, that's all we can do for now. But if you enjoyed this episode, maybe we can do another one. If listeners enjoyed this, and if you have more questions, just let me know. And maybe we can bring jack or someone or another satanist on to answer more satanic questions. Do you have any parting words before we finish this up?

Jack Matirko 52:15
Ah, boy, not really. At the moment. I'm still kind of trying to figure out where things are going since the documentary came out. I there's been a lot of

Stephen Bradford Long 52:24
it's it's been madness. Yeah. It's the document.

Jack Matirko 52:26
Yes. And I'm not. It'll be interesting to see where things go from here.

Stephen Bradford Long 52:30
Yeah. So yeah, just to explain briefly, the documentary hail satan. It released this month, last month, it released recently. And so now there's this massive influx of interest. And I think we're all kind of struggling with how to handle that. Like the online Facebook group has been very interesting lately.

Jack Matirko 52:54
Yeah. There's a bit of dog that caught the car going on.

Stephen Bradford Long 52:58
Yeah, absolutely.

Jack Matirko 53:01
Know, we're just like, we're trying to get people to pay attention to this stuff. And now everyone's paying attention to

Stephen Bradford Long 53:06
this stuff now. And now what the fuck do we do?

Jack Matirko 53:09
You know, this kind of happened before with a lot of other TST stuff, where there'd be these influxes. You know, like when the when the Arkansas lawsuit happened, or when the Missouri stuff went down, and like those influxes have happened, just never on this scale before. And I think, especially for people who have been around for the last few years, there's almost a sense of, of burnout on answering the same questions over and over and over again, you know, as newbies, I totally get

Stephen Bradford Long 53:38
them. Well, fortunately, I have not yet burned out on answering the same questions over and over again, because I just joined in 2017. So I'm still a baby. I'm still a newbie. So I'm, I'm happy to answer the same question over and over and over again, what I usually do is I just refer people to my articles or to the FAQ, that's

Jack Matirko 53:56
a lot too or something. Just like yeah, here's my thing from two years ago. I answered it you know, you just kind of want to ask and answer a lot of them but yeah, which kind of feels like cheating but you know, you can only so much

Stephen Bradford Long 54:09
there's only so many hours in a day Yeah, I got a I got you you have a you have a baby to not eat you have a baby to not sacrifice so All right, well that is it for this show. Also, do be sure to check out Jack's other podcast naked diner and his blog for internal use only. Go watch the movie hail satan. It is fabulous. You won't regret it. And for those of you who want to support my show, maybe you find yourself listening to it every Monday or Tuesday morning and you're just waiting for it to come out. If that's you, then please consider becoming a patron. becoming a patron gives you access to more content, a second patrons only podcast called House of heretics in which Justin and I have very not safe for work conversations while we drink our morning. Coffee and it will also help ensure that my creative work has a long life and that I have more margin to do the stuff that I want to do that I need to do. I believe in bringing my work to the world for free, but in order to do that, I need a lot of support. Also, if you like the other work I'm doing with rock candy podcast. If you liked the shows, we're producing a like eleventy life bubble and squeak Bible bash, the other shows that I'm involved in those shows and our live shows as well coming up at various festivals around the southeast. All of that is helped by my patrons so not only will it help my work, it also helps the larger community of creators that I'm working with the music is by the jelly rocks from the album bang and whimper you can find it on iTunes and Spotify. Other music is by 11 D seven from their album rad science. Also find that on iTunes and Spotify. A special thanks goes to my team Josh black and Justin Dozier Bryant and as usual thanks so much for listening. Close your watch me. You saved

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STRoeVWade

2022-10-11T08:06:12Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STRoeVWade
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, states, talk, ectopic pregnancy, fight, abortion, short term, enemy, impact, pregnancy, internet, put, year old girl, laws, happen, long term, peace, fertilized egg, purity, long
SPEAKERS
Stephen Bradford Long, Chalice Blythe

Stephen Bradford Long 00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast this is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long. We are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com All right. As always, I have to thank my patrons. For this week. I have to thank and hold on. I was not I was not a good boy scout and adequately prepared for this just a second. Let me find my list. So for this week, I have to thank NAT Ward, f v. Elizabeth Washburn, Nixie Lionheart, Diane Koch Neff, and Patricia Moreno, thank you so much. I truly could not do the show without you. You are funding my debilitating content creation addiction. And this show really is a one man show. I do all of the editing, all of the interviewing all of the booking all of the recording. But I believe in the work I do, but in order to do it, I need your help. And every little bit helps for just $1 a month, you get extra content every single week. All right, Chalice Blythe, welcome back.

Chalice Blythe 01:31
Thank you for having me back.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:33
So my mouth is very numb. I don't know if the audience could tell through that introduction. I'm eating a popsicle. And popsicles are just unbelievably awkward on Zoom, because there's no way to eat a popsicle on Zoom without it looking like I'm sucking a dick. So I am sorry.

Chalice Blythe 01:49
Oh, don't be sorry. I'm actually very sorry for your listeners that they don't get to watch the show that I get. Not even your patrons get it?

Stephen Bradford Long 02:00
Not even my patrons get to see this. Only you.

Chalice Blythe 02:04
Yes, thank you are the gift that keeps on giving.

Stephen Bradford Long 02:07
I'm so glad you're welcome. Maybe I should start an only fans. Okay, so here we are. We had a conversation of a few weeks ago, when the news broke that Roe v Wade was going to be overturned. And now here we are. And it has been overturned. And how did it hit you when when it finally happened?

Chalice Blythe 02:33
I think so, interestingly enough, I had the impending doom feeling had made me want to kind of get out of town for a night. And so without realizing because we thought we were going to hear the news on a Thursday, we thought they were going to be and it's funny enough, we were getting media requests for, I guess, live first reactions to the announcement of the robo ruling on a Thursday. And I kind of anticipated that I would have needed the next day to get out of town and just disconnect for a while. So I had made arrangements to do an overnight somewhere out in the middle of nowhere. And so Thursday came and went and it wasn't announced. And so when it was announced on Friday the nice thing was is I feel like we were already prepared considering the leak and so we had the ability to acclimate. But I think the acclamation really wasn't the, the actual reality, the finality of it, that's it really hit that day. So I'm glad I had the opportunity to go away and be away from my phone and from the Doom scrolling in from everything like that for that night because it was very overwhelming. And you know, due to trigger laws, I mean, even just the next day that that Saturday, we were already seeing those things go into effect in it already impacting people trying to obtain reproductive health care. So it was it was immediate. The things that we were talking about as this is gonna these are the things that are going to happen within a matter of 24 hours. They were already a reality. So it's horrible. Yeah, it really is horrifying and you know, I have a lot you know, where I work in the medical field. So I kind of keep tabs on other health professionals that I know that actually work in this, you know, work in the field, you know, OBGYN, abortion providers, those kinds of things. emergency doctors, Emergency Nurses, um, And the stories that I've been hearing, not only just kind of around the internet, but also from, you know, some of my friends have been, you know, the worst nightmare made may come true because this isn't just, this isn't just impacting people that you know want to terminate a pregnancy. This is impacting people who have a very much wanted pregnancy, but because biology is how it is whether it's an ectopic pregnancy, or there's a severe fetal abnormality or whatever the case may be, these people are now put in situations where they have to be. So for example, for ectopic pregnancies, what we're seeing is people have

Stephen Bradford Long 05:45
for people who don't know what an ectopic pregnancy is, could you tell me what that because they're going to be a lot of people in the audience who don't even know what the fuck this is?

Chalice Blythe 05:56
Oh, sure. So an ectopic pregnancy is when a egg is fertilized by a sperm. And usually the process happens in and around the fallopian tube. And the normal process is that that fertilized egg makes its way into the uterus and attaches itself to the uterus, and then they're in then, you know, then it starts forming, you know, growing, you know, the placenta is sent to forms and then, you know, Francie goes from there. But with an ectopic pregnancy pregnancy, the fertilized egg decides to stay put in the fallopian tube. And that pregnancy is not viable meaning once it once it implants into the fallopian tube, there's absolutely no way that pregnancy could ever be viable, that that egg is not going to be able to turn into a viable pregnancy. And so as the as the egg rolls within the fallopian tube, eventually what will happen is it will rupture, and it will cause internal hemorrhaging, and hemorrhaging is bleeding. And if you do not, so if you do not remove that ectopic pregnancy before then you're then put in a situation where and what people are in the situation now in various states, is that ectopic pregnancy has to rupture. And the patient has to start losing lots and lots of blood due to internal hemorrhaging. And they have to be on the cusp of, of death, essentially, prior to any medical intervention, being able to be half or

Stephen Bradford Long 07:41
a four, just to be clear. For a pregnancy, that was never viable. It was never viable. And yet at the beginning, in the from the beginning, it was never viable. So this is just putting people through unneeded torture through through medieval levels of torture just for being human just for the way the human body works.

Chalice Blythe 08:06
Yeah, and, and you know, there's there are these, these idiotic lawmakers who have it in their head for some reason that ectopic pregnancies can be reimplanted, it's actually I can't remember which state it is, but one state has in their law that the the doctors have to, they have to try to re implant into the uterus, the fertilized egg, as opposed to doing what you would do in any ectopic pregnancy situation, which is the best possible care you could give a patient is to perform to perform the abortion. And yeah, this this myth of reimplantation of an egg, I don't know where it started, but it's just not medically possible. It is not something that has ever existed is not something that you know, very likely will ever exist, you know, that that egg that there's just no way that egg is ever going to become a viable pregnancy. But because of these lawmakers that have it, you know, because of their beliefs that you know, life begins at conception, meaning you know, life begins or not in Yeah, Life begins at an egg being fertilized. They view any disruption of that egg whether that be through abortion, or what happens in a lot of cases that people don't talk about a lot or enough is that you know, you could have a fertilized egg and it simply just doesn't implant it doesn't you know, it makes its way into the uterus but it doesn't implant and so you would just expel it through a normal period. This happens all the time for anybody for anybody with a uterus who you know is engaging in sexual activity with you know, anybody who produces sperm you know, you could you know, on the regular you know, even if you're even if you're on birth control, anything like that, You know, there are there is a possibility of there being a fertilized egg, and it simply just doesn't attach. And it just, it just goes out with your period, your normal menstrual cycle. And you know, you wouldn't know you wouldn't know. But you know, it's the what these laws are going to do is it's not only punishing people who are already in a medical crisis, it's not only punishing people who are in a situation where, you know, maybe maybe it's a very much wanted pregnancy. And then biology does what biology does, and they're left to suffer, you know, more, after you've been told that, you know, their pregnancy is not viable for whatever reason. It I mean, I don't know, I don't know how far they're planning on taking it, you know, especially if, you know, they, they consider a fertilized egg a life and the person unable or unwilling to carry that pregnancy to term in any way, shape, or form, whether knowingly or unknowingly. In the case of a, you know, normal menstrual cycle, you know, they want to make them criminals, there's talk of there being the states deciding to charge pregnant people with felonies, if they if they decide to terminate their pregnancy, there's talk of not allowing them to go across state lines without verifying they're not pregnant. You know, there's a lot of talk of all these things that now that they've now that they've gotten now that the states are able to determine how they want to treat this topic there. There's nothing on the federal side that is saying that they can't do it, there's nothing stopping them. So this is just the start of, of, you know, misinformed religious zealots, you know, creating laws, that it's not going to stop them from obtaining abortions, you know, it's not going to stop them, it's not going to stop the people they're having sexual relations with, it's not going to stop the people in their lives who are in need of that, because they're always going to be able and they're always going to have the ability to go somewhere where it is legal. You know, these these laws do not apply to them it is it is merely a way to punish other people of whom they feel need to adhere to their their values that they don't take all that seriously. Anyway. So yeah, it's, it's an absolute nightmare. And then you have and then you have other states that don't make exceptions for rape or incest. A very, I believe it was in Ohio, there was a 10 year old girl who was a victim of of incestuous right. And the she was not able to obtain an abortion, this state denied it. So she a 10 year old girl, not only has to live with the fact that she may be going to school and getting shot up. But you know, now she's, she's got to carry that carry that to term. And I'm assuming, based off of how all states work, generally speaking, with the services and the support systems that they they fail to implement, given that they have these archaic laws put into place, there's going to be no support for the baby that's born, there's not going to be no support for the baby that's carrying the baby. There's going to be no, you know, adoptions probably not going to be a viable option. Um, yeah, it's just it. Yeah, it's, um, it's an absolute nightmare. It's an absolute nightmare we're living in right now. And, you know, obviously, with the with Roe, we're not we're not only talking about abortion, we are talking about the right to privacy, the right to medical privacy, and, you know, and privacy in general. So, I know, the Supreme Court justices have indicated that there's other fundamental laws or rulings that they want to revisit that speak on the topic of, of, you know, same sex marriage. You know, things like that. So it's contraception, contraception. So, yeah, it's, it's, I mean, they've, you know, they're just, they're just not going to stop. I don't think, you know, it's, it's just going to be downhill from there. And the states are the states that we know being, you know, what they are, they're some that are that are, you know, going through the motions of making sure that these rights are made more strong in their state constitution. I know, I know. Things are being put on the ballot here in Arizona, there's there's a petition to get the right to abortion put in the state constitution to be voted on in November. And I know certain states like California, they've got something that they're going to be putting on the ballot and you know, in places like New York City area, New York, they've already got it written into the state constitution. So, you know, you're going to have these these states that are Affirmative, or are affirming people's right to their reproductive health. And those are going to be places that are not going to comply with the other states, you are going to try and make make a criminal case of somebody going into that state to seek reproductive health care. But I mean, the problem is, is that, you know, they're they're going to be, they are going to be safe havens for their for the citizens of that state. But just because that's the case for them, it doesn't mean that they can necessarily be a safe haven for others, because travel is expensive. You know, resources are limited. There are so many there's so many ways in which the states that the restrictive states can make it absolutely impossible for those in the most dire need to make sure that you know, they are not able to get to get that care. So um, yeah, it's it's, it's all it's all layers of fucked up.

Stephen Bradford Long 16:02
It is it is. And, you know, big picture, I long term. And it feels almost obscene to talk about this, because the immediate suffering is so real. And long term, I can see this creating further patterns in our body in our body politic of that can just rip the country apart immigration patterns over decades, for example, that that just within the within the United States, between states that can just you know, over time over the course of years and years and years, that could just like tear the body politic apart. And so no, there's a lot to worry about. And lest we forget that the Supreme Court did a bunch of other fuckery as well. They removed a lot of protections for the environment, mandated that taxpayers should pay for Christian schools, I believe, a lot of terrifying shit. So now, the and as you were talking, I was looking up I was I was Googling all of the instances like the 10 year old girl. Snopes has an article up about that, and just how like, swiftly this went into action. The impact was, quote on quote, the impact was swift according to several news outlets. For example, Ohio's new abortion ban forced a 10 year old girl who had gotten pregnant by rape to travel to her neighboring state of Indiana where abortion remains legal. And then also new. You were talking about ectopic pregnancies. New Oh, so this is from a Cleveland Clinic. It this is from a clinic in Ohio, New Ohio Bill falsely suggests that reimplantation of ectopic pregnancy as possible. Yeah, I mean, and that was in 2000. So these laws have been kind of waiting in the waiting for this to happen. And so now the question becomes, well, what the fuck do we do? Now? There's a lot of talk online and on social media about ways to help people get access to reproductive health care now, in these specific states, what are you? What are your thoughts on a lot of what's been going around on the internet lately about how to respond and help? And I know that that's a broad question.

Chalice Blythe 18:40
But yeah, so generally speaking, I think the reactions overall have been what can we do now. And a lot of the reactions have been well intentioned, but not all of them have been very well thought out. And the reason I say that is because there are certain things that there are certain things one can do to help those who are in need, that could actually be of you know, could actually help them and not put them in more danger, especially considering we're still seeing all these trigger laws come into effect. And more laws are going to happen where just because it's not a law in your state, doesn't mean it's not going to be a law that the person who's trying to get help isn't going to be subjected to you know, whether or not they're successful and getting the health care. Once they go back to their life in the state where there's you know, more horrendous laws. There are things that they'll be subjected to because that is just how forever that the state is and in punishing people that they deem immoral for daring to not live by their their morals and stuff like that by You know, spreading their legs, so to speak, whether that was forcibly or not. So for example, I've seen a lot of commentary online, about, let's go camping I've seen I've seen that yeah, that's

Stephen Bradford Long 20:14
the one that I've seen too, a lot of the camping and they're cute. I, I like the meme. Because there's, there's sort of this ironic hilarity to it, however,

Chalice Blythe 20:27
but the problem is, you just, you've just announced to the world and you've put it all over social media, and you've probably attached it to your IP address and your own personal information, that you are somebody who could potentially be harboring somebody for those purposes, and you're indicating to the world that anybody seen with you is potentially somebody who's trying to get that care, that is considered illegal in certain states. And so you are now a hazard to anybody seeking care or seeking help from you. So it's, it's a problem when one, well intentioned people don't first try to look and see who's already doing the work that is protected, and has been around for a long time they know what they're doing. And you know, they can provide those resources and you could potentially be a part of that network that can can help people so reactive with good intentions, but reactionary things tend to have bad consequences, you know, especially when it comes to long term. And so what I would advise people to do is, if you are intending to provide resources, or help, don't advertise it on the fucking internet, you know, because it's so easily could put yourself whether or not you care about the rest of yourself, but it's going to put the risk onto the people reaching out to you for that help. And I actually think it'd be really great if you had Minister Caracas sorta on your podcast to talk about online privacy, because he just did an interview with Robert Evans, from you know, behind the bastards, phenomenal, phenomenal guy. And they talked about this, they essentially talked about, you know, even when you've got burner phones, even when you've got these things, there is still a way to access data connecting either, you know, people to you or even yourself to yourself. And so I think it would be really great if you had him on to talk about, you know, one of the reasons why a lot of the networks that a lot of the networks that are currently in operation are good at what they do is because, you know, they're not, they're not advertising shit on the internet that are smart, they know how digital footprints work, and they understand how, you know, certain things can't be done, or things have to be done in a certain way to not only protect yourself and continue, and being able to continue the work that you do, but also protect the people needing your help. And so, yeah, if people want to have that information ahead of time before you can potentially have them on your show, you can just look up it could happen here, I think is the podcast he was on with Robert Evans, and it's just caucus artha they talk about they talk specifically about this issue. And so yeah, generally speaking, I think that if people want to help people now in the now invest in in the networks that are able to do that the ones that know what they're doing, and the ones that can help and there are probably ways in which if you reach out to those networks, you could find a way to be a part of that network and they'll give you all of that information and they'll give you all the tools so that you can be a part of that but just don't set shit up or don't ask you know tell people they can come camping with you because one the people unfortunately unfortunately the people who are most interested in making us criminals or you know people that don't no longer have any rights whatsoever. They're not as they're not as dumb as we think they are even though we think they're fucking stupid, but they're not that dumb. And so I bet you anything they're already looking for keywords they're already going through your data if you are if you are connected to social media in any way, shape, or form, that data is being sold to somebody and it's being sold. It's it's being shared and what even even if even all your well intentions, everything, you know, if it comes from a good place, that's fine, but I Have you are, you know, you're already targeted and and all of your activities always going to be suspect. So depending on how the laws go in certain states as far as how how far they're going to go to keep the people of that state from obtaining reproductive health care, you know, maybe maybe certain states will hand over that information, you know, or whatever the case may be, it's just, it's hard to, it's hard to say, but we know it's coming, because, you know, the lawmakers already talking about it. So yeah, you know, if you want to help now, You know, contribute, assist in the networks that are able to help now, and find a way I guess, to be a part of those networks, if you're really if you feel really strongly about wanting to like actually help, you know, outside of just don't donating money. Or, you know, if donating money, or, you know, or just being able to spread awareness about things is is what you're able capable of doing, then, you know, find out your local, the local funds that are in your area, or if maybe, or if maybe there's a state hit particularly hard, like, let's say, Texas, you know, Texas does have existing funds and networks that are working really hard to protect those people. So if you live in a state, let's say that's, you know, not going to be terribly affected, you know, maybe like New York or California or, you know, those states, you know, maybe donate to a fund in like the most hard impacted, state, you know, those funds, those networks, you know, that that would be a really great way. And then if you if, you know, people make sure that you can, you know, provide that information, if they're looking, do it through VPN, protect your data, you know, again, would be really great. If you had Carl on he could go over all the specifics, you know, really detailed, but, you know, yeah, protect your data, first and foremost, invest in VPNs, invest in encrypted messaging, like, you know, you know, there's certain apps where you can do that, so invest in those things. And, um, you know, and then start and then and then start doing that, you know, if marching is your method, then I'm sure we're going to be seeing a lot of those in perpetuity. But, um, yeah, but, again, don't tell the Internet, what you're doing like that. I think that I think that's the number one rule of effective ways to continue being able to resist and be able to continue providing support for those who are most impacted. Rule number one, don't fucking tell everybody or give the tools to the state that is going to use those use that evidence against you. Do not give them do not give them the the, the information to use against you for that. Post on your Twitter post on your Facebook. You know, the internet does not need to know what you're doing. And the internet does not need to validate you and what you're doing, you know, validate yourself and your own ethics and your own morals by just doing the work and doing it in a way that isn't going to put other people in harm's way.

Stephen Bradford Long 28:26
I'm looking at some of these memes. One person on tick tock said camping is legal in Florida. If you need a place to recover support while camping, I'm here to help. And then someone if you live in Texas, someone else. If you live in Texas and need a ride to go camping, I got this truck I paid too much for and I think you'd look great in the passenger seat. Another tick tock user said so a quote from this article though this is on the guardian. It isn't a code word, if you tell everyone what that code word means, which is what this is. And you know, I get it, I get the need. I get the impulse I do I really do. I get the impulse to do a lot of our activism online because that's where so many of us live. The problem is that if we want to affect change, it has to be beyond just the internet. It has to it has to be in meatspace we have to touch grass. And we have to do that activism in meatspace and be more careful about how we communicate online.

Chalice Blythe 29:34
Yeah, the the foundations for any any effective organization, grassroots whatever are the people you don't hear about. And so it's the work you don't see. And I think that is kind of the thing that people need to remember is that the work that is not seen or praised or subjected to catchy, catchy headlines and applaud from the general internet. That's that's the stuff that is never seen. It's the nitty gritty, it's the it's the boring, it's the it's the taxing I mean, it's, it's really, it's the unappreciated work that is probably some of the most frustrating work to do. But it's the stuff that gets the most done. And, you know, and it's yeah. So when it when it comes to what you can do, what you can do is, you know, be smart, and do do it smart, do it effectively, and make sure that you are not doing things that are putting those people seeking you out at risk, because then you're not only taking yourself out, and you know what one of the other things too is, you know, effective ally ship or effective support is the ability to continue doing it is the ability to be a place of stability of support, and being able to continue doing that. And you're in your in that also helps a numbers and you're not doing yourself any favors, you're not doing your activism, any favors, you're not doing the people in need of your help any favors by you know, maybe doing it the one time getting caught and getting taken out. And then therefore that's one less that's one less, you know, resource that's one less source of support, that's one less person to help make the work happen. And so, you know, it might feel good, you know, in the in the short term, but in the long term, you fucked your cause.

Stephen Bradford Long 31:38
You know, there's there's another angle to that as well. And so I not having a uterus I'm a bit I am. I am gay. So I am a bit downstream from this from from, oh, they're

Chalice Blythe 31:54
coming for you.

Stephen Bradford Long 31:55
They are coming for me. They are they are they're coming for all of us. Yeah, they're coming from us right now. I'm I am a bit downstream from it. And I the thing that continually comes to my mind, and I do have an article coming out about this, that it will have come out by the time this this podcast airs. But I've been thinking a lot about a quote from the great Trappist monk, Thomas Merton, who is kind of a contemplative mystic. And what he says is, if you yourself have peace, then at least there is peace somewhere in the world. And so for people who have the ability to have that peace, who are not pressed up against this issue, and really horrifying ways, for those of us who can keep who can keep a solid foundation and be at peace, then we can provide that stability and peace to others because us making others do emotional labor by consoling us by console. And by us. I mean, people who don't have universities, this is mostly to this is mostly to, to people who don't have childbearing potential, right? We we are of no use if we are just collapsing on our fainting couches. And so it's like, yes, it's scary. It's, it's hard, but the best thing we can do is to maintain to maintain a sense of well being and consistency and presence so that the people who are really, really suffering as a result of this can actually gain some some peace from our presence, and instead of having to consult us, instead of because we're collapsing on our fainting couches, so that's, that's the thing that I have been returning to. So there's, I think there's that angle to it as well. It's like don't jeopardize your ability to serve others by telling the internet what you're doing, but also don't jeopardize your ability to serve others by by swooning onto your fainting couch. And I by this, in this regard, I'm speaking specifically to people like myself who aren't immediately impacted by this, it's still scary, but we are not the immediate targets and it is our job to maintain a bit of well being and peace and not fall down a a, you know, toxic Doom scrolly rabbit hole, because then that disables us from being able to to that that disables us from from offering any kind of presence or solidarity to others.

Chalice Blythe 34:59
Yeah. Sure, and it's just, yeah, one less one less.

Stephen Bradford Long 35:04
I was gonna say it a certain way. And then I realized I didn't want to say it that way. You could say you could say it that way.

Chalice Blythe 35:10
I mean, I guess it's it. You know, it's one less soldier to fight fight.

Stephen Bradford Long 35:14
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah. I mean, that's, I think that's accurate. I think that's true. And and I mean, here's the thing, I'm also realizing that the way that all of that just came out can sound very, like, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you know, get over it, deal with it. That's not, that's not what I mean, you know, we can, we can feel fear, we can feel we can feel uncertainty, but we're in this for the long haul. And we need to, we need to be able to maintain consistency and wellbeing and peace for those of us who are able to, and we do that for so that, you know, for the others who who can't, you know, for the others who who are, you know, like that little 10 year old girl who was raped or like anyone of childbearing potential in any of these states? Yeah, it's

Chalice Blythe 36:07
basically looking at it from a point of view of having a short term and a long term. And I think you can have both. And, you know, having having a plan for both and making sure that your short term doesn't impact your long term. When it comes to me basically criticizing people for posting about camping on the internet. I think that's kind of why why I think it's so detrimental and why I would really discourage people from doing that, even though it's, it's, you know, it makes us feel good in the moment. And you know, it's a fun meme. Like, I remember seeing it for the first time, like on Tik Tok. And I was like, oh, that's clever. I like that. But, you know, it was one of those things where then after the momentary, just like, Oh, that's cute. That's, you know, all right. Um, it then became very clear that, you know, it's like, the reason why these things are not effective. And I think the reason why social media makes it so much harder for people to effectively do things for those who are being assaulted by by theocracy, is that they keep posting it on the goddamn internet. You know, they're they're making, there's no more codewords anymore. They're just saying, This is what I'm doing. You know, I mean, these are the, you know, these are the kind of things where it's like, do you think that you know, back, you know, back before Roe, I mean, there's this great documentary on HBO called the Jas and it talks about the basically the underground network of women that were helping others be able to obtain abortions because they was very illegal, but they were able to create an establish a network, where people could find that service and, you know, get it from people that kind of knew what they were doing. Some of them not so much. But, um, you know, essentially, that service was made available, and it went under the radar for a very long time. And they did eventually get caught in the people who were caught and arrested and at charges laid against them. Eventually, those charges dropped because Roe v Wade, then got then became, you know, got ruled on so, you know, eventually they were let go and, you know, let bygones be bygones. But, um, you know, one of the reasons that they did not get caught for the longest time is because they weren't on social media posting about what they were doing, and they weren't making themselves easy targets, you know, by, by doing stuff like that. So again, so if you think about it, if you put yourself in that situation, so you know, thing that happened, think about all of the people that they helped, that they wouldn't have been able to help because they decided to advertise to the world, this is what they were doing. And, you know, you're you're taking yourself out of the fight, you're, you're short term feel good. I'm here for you, you know, come camping with me, you know, here's where I live, you know, I am a resource to you, please reach out to me, blah, blah, blah, that thing that feels so good in the short term, and you know, makes it seem like there's a little bit of light. It, it does nothing for your long term. It doesn't help those people and it doesn't help you be a source for the people that are going to happen along the way. Because the thing is, is that this is this is no longer this is no longer a hypothetical. This is our reality. And the reality of this is that this is going to take a very long time to try to get back to where we were and we may never get back to where we were I mean, who the fuck knows I mean, it's it's hard to say but but what what we do know to be true It is that the impact of this ruling and the impact of the laws that are being put into place to make this reality, even worse, it is going to take a very long time for us to fight against it, and hopefully, in overturn it. So, again, why if you really want to, if you really want to help affect change, if you really want to help people, why take yourself out of the fight in the very beginning, you know, so again, that's why, you know, be be vocal about your support, and be vocal about where you stand. You know, do that all day long. But when it comes to assisting people, when it comes to being an actual resource of those who are in need, that's when you, that's when you go dark. And that's when you either smartly establish a network, or you become a part of a network that currently exists that already knows what it's doing and can help you be that. And you know, you donate your money. You know, get involved with a network, create your own network in a very smart way, you know, let let people who've been doing this for a while, let you know how it's done. And now it's done effectively. And do it under the radar, be in the dark, protect yourself. And by protecting yourself, you are protecting the many, many people who are going to come along the way that are going to need that help, you know, just it's be smart about it. Think about it. In the terms of the long run.

Stephen Bradford Long 41:38
I feel like the Internet has in our lives on the internet has really put I so like how you framed that the short term and the long term. And it feels like our lives on the internet has really put those two things in odds with each other. And yeah, one of the things that I think it's really helpful to be reminded of is very often, what feels great in the short term works against us in the long term. Yeah, and to and that isn't a hard and fast rule. I mean, that isn't true all of the time. But,

Chalice Blythe 42:15
I mean, you can have two things, you can have two things at once. I mean, you literally Yeah, you can have you can have a short term and a long term. And you can have both, but it's it's how you go about the short term that you know that has that impact on that long term.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:30
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, the, there's so much activism that I see, and not just in this space, but in other spaces that I'm really connected to, like LGBT activism. Yeah, um, or activism for the separation of church and state or whatever that I see online in particular, and I'm just like, do we want to feel good? Or do we want to win? Because those can be right, those are two different goals. Those are actually two different things feel, feel goods? Good feels, and winning, are added those actually require very often not always, but very often a completely different decision tree. Well, yeah, at least in my experience,

Chalice Blythe 43:24
well, in my experience, and what I what I've seen, you know, and I have I have the amazing fortune of having a partner who's a historian and I'm constantly you know, picking out his brain about these things because you know, yes,

Stephen Bradford Long 43:41
yes, he's been on the show everyone go listen to the psychopathy and compassion episode decks is incredible. He is our colleague, and he is

Chalice Blythe 43:51
Yeah, and the love of my life but um, you know, but he also is a historian by trade and a lot of the a lot of conversations we've been having, you know, well before this, but also a lot because of this is, you know, what, have, you know, what are the what are the common threads? What are the things that is always been the downfall of those who've been trying to do the right thing, and they just never could accomplish? You know, I asked a lot of questions. I'm like, How the fuck did Hitler get where he was, you know, things like that, like, how do these terrible things happen? And we know there was resistance, why, you know, Why were those not effective? And, you know, something that he says says to me quite often is, you know, when first van be right, and and the logic behind that is when you have when you have these when you're looking at the nightmare hellscape that we live in right now. This was a this was a collaborative effort that took decades, right. It took decades to get to where we are now. And the people responsible for it spent decades working with enemies compromising thing, going against their own morals and values doing all of these things, because they because they had this one clear goal, they had this one, it was the the ultimate prize, they had this ultimate prize that they were trying to obtain. And in the, in the course of that, there was, there was all of the Yeah, there was a lot that, you know, those groups, you know, had to had to do to get to that point. And we've seen that, that has become that that's effective. That's how that's how people fuck everything up for everybody else. But so then you have the other side that has been so concerned about, you know, constantly being, you know, the moral superiority even though you know, I think that, you know, even though it is right, even it is the, you know, even the moral superiority. The problem is, is that, you know, there's so much infighting and there's, there's so much concerted effort to find the find the evil within and a lot of times doesn't even exist, but finding the evil within that there's, you know, it just, it then becomes you're fighting yourself instead of instead of the enemy who is effectively, you know, working towards oppressing you, that is really kind of at the heart of, you know, if we're, if we're really determined to turn this around. And if we are determined to fight to get our basic human rights back, we need to stop trying to make enemies amongst ourselves, what they need to stop doing is losing focus, by getting distracted by all the infighting the small fights, the petty things that happens within and trying to one up the other trying to basically one up your comrade, and into how morally superior you are. And, and just put those things aside. Even if you know, like, you don't have to agree on everything with the person you're fighting the fight with. But as long as you're fighting that fight, and at the end of the day, you you accomplish that you win the battle. That's all that matters. So you know, it's do everything you can do to win. And then be right, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 47:24
people. People hate this so much i and but everything you're saying is absolutely correct. Compromise is the only way and correct compra I mean, you know, why is compromise? Correct? Tasha compromise, right? So people hear that and they say, you want me to compromise with the enemy? And I'm like, look, listen, someone an enemy? Well, here's the thing, someone who is, you know, a leftist will say, what you want me to compromise with my enemy? And the enemy is like a liberal.

Chalice Blythe 47:59
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Stephen Bradford Long 48:02
And, and that, that's the kind of thing or you know, in the enemy, you know, or someone's a communist and the enemy is a Social Democrat, we are always more concerned about the near enemy. We are always more concerned about the near enemy. And we and this has a long history in the left. I mean, always, we have always had these problems. This is not new at all, you know, this goes back decades and decades and decades. But you know, the right and I know, we talked about this in our previous conversation, the right falls into fucking line, when, when they have this goal. And, you know, the the left however, does not. And actually, I just read a fantastic article recently. I will send it to you. After this, you might find it interesting in the intercept, by Ryan Grim, and he's talking about how major progressive nonprofits have basically been stalled over the past few years by massive, massive, massive infighting and how this is actually kind of a serious threat. The Sierra Club, the Sierra Club, one of the premier, you know, one of one of the flagship climate change activist groups in the United States. I mean, they are, they are really important have historically been really important for climate change activism. They were immobilized over the past few years, because of this internal division of purity tests, and so on and so forth. And the end guess what the end result is? Well then, you know, legislatures in the Senate or in while we're all backstabbing each other, they are going to burn down the fucking planet. And so I will say That article to you, but it's a real problem. And yeah, yeah, to get over it.

Chalice Blythe 50:05
Yeah, well, and again, is taking yourself out of the fight. So it's, you know, when you engage in basically these purity spirals, you know, again, you are so you, you are thinking so in short term, that the consequence of that is that you that you lose your grounding, you lose your ability to do anything, you know, because you were so hyper focused on feeling good in the short term about, you know, whether it's moral superiority, or whatever the case may be, that you lost sight of, what is the end goal? And how do we achieve it? And, yeah, you take yourself out of the fight. And yeah, this is not new, like, there are so many, you know, progressive communities, so many progressive organizations that have happened, that they are no longer able to function and do good things and be able to be a part of the toolkit for us to fix the shit because, you know, they engaged in in that kind of behavior, you know, they were so focused on, you know, finding the enemy within and and when we say enemy within, we're not, we're not talking about they found the crypto fascist, and they had to boot them out. That's not what's happening there, you know, that they're having these ideological arguments that are so that are so non nonsensical, they're not, you know, they're not, they're not actually highlighting the bad things of the pursuit of the quote unquote, enemy that they're trying to, you know, reign over or get kicked out. You know, sometimes it's as petty is kind of like what you said, like, you know, I'm a communist and euro and your democratic socialist, exactly. The kinds of things that we see tear organizations apart.

Stephen Bradford Long 51:54
I'm watching, I've watched it tear online, socialist communities apart. Yeah. And I mean, it's, it's fucking wild. And so I guess, to recap, I think the big theme of this conversation is don't take yourself out of the fight. And we're in this fight for the long haul. And, and I think I've seen three themes. Along these lines are three primary lessons. One is don't share everything on fucking Twitter, like, like to protect your privacy, and protect the privacy of people, you're going to help by not telling everyone what your intentions are on Twitter, so have good boundaries with social media. So that would be one. Number two would be for people who are able to take good care of yourself, do sufficient self care, so that if you have peace, then at least there is peace somewhere in the world. And then you can give that to others. And then third, is resist purity spirals, because our goals are way bigger than than this squabbling, that that we find ourselves in.

Chalice Blythe 53:11
Yeah, I mean, we're no longer talking about we no longer live in this, this comforting, delusion, that, Oh, that would never happen. We no longer live in that world. The thing that was never supposed to happen, it it has happened. That is our reality. Now, and there are real I mean, even within a span of 24 hours of this happening, there were already bodies being piled up. And it's only going to continue, it's only going to get worse. And it's only going to start it's going to start affecting groups like minded minority groups, and and already people that are disenfranchised, and those who are already considered to be the bottom of the rung of society and those who already live with, you know, the consequences of a society that think they are lesser, and so it's only going to impact them more, and we are going to be seeing more real lives lost. So because this is now very real, and it's only going to get worse. Let's stop pretending that we are fighting the enemy within in start fighting the real enemy and banding together for a single cause. compromise, compromise and work with your allies, whether or not you agree with them on everything else in this world. If you've got an ally who was willing to fight with you for this one thing, then you'll win. You will I mean, you win by numbers if you're smart. If you if you if you you know, re kind of re rework Are the framework in your mind of this being a long term battle, you know, longtime long term war is, is opposed to like a short term battle. And, you know, really, really focused that way, you know, we could, we could have such an impact by bringing so many different communities and people that share this particular wanton will to, you know, not have our rights taken away from us. If if we are able to band together, set our differences aside and fight for all of us who are disenfranchised, and all of us who are going to be disenfranchised because of this, then, you know, the the numbers, the concentrated effort, the unified the unified resources, and everything, all of that put together, that is going to impact change, and it's not going to look like just one thing, you know, it's not going to just be one thing, it's going to be a combination of so many different things that have to happen. But we have the ability to do it. And so yeah, don't don't take yourself out of the game short term, focus on the long term and focus on what's really important, and be willing to make compromises and be willing to you know, think of this in terms of of yours as opposed to what can I do today and then feel good about it and then carry on with my life, you know? Absolutely. I think what's gonna give me my was gonna give me my serotonin for the, you know, on on on online for 24 hours, you know, I don't know, but I think you've said it a lot better than I did. Well, anyway,

Stephen Bradford Long 56:41
that's it. And you know, one of my I think that's a fantastic note to end on, and resist purity, one of my satanic, one of my personal satanic tenets is resist purity. And whenever I start to feel that that righteous, pure indignation, because you know, someone who believes 99% of the same things that I do, but might have a slight disagreement, or even 80 or 60% of the same thing, as I do, but, you know, I'm willing to bludgeon that person to death on Twitter, because they are, you know, they're they are the near enemy. I must resist that purity, because resisting purity is how we win. I think that's an incredibly satanic principle.

Chalice Blythe 57:28
Yeah, resist purity and resist your oppressors.

Stephen Bradford Long 57:31
Absolutely. All right. Well, she leaves Blythe it is always a pleasure. And we are in this for the long haul.

Chalice Blythe 57:38
Yes, we are the long, bloody frustrating. We may or may not live through this long haul. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 57:47
absolutely. All right. Well, as always, you know, you're always welcome back. It's always great to hang out with you. Thank you. All right. Well, that is it for this show. The museum. Jesus Christ, I always get this. I always fuck this up at the very end because I'm tired. That is it for this show. The theme song is wild by eleventy seven. You can find it on Apple Music, Spotify, or wherever you listen to music. The show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long and it is supported by my personal lords and saviors@patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long as always, Hail Satan. And thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STRichardLangHeadlessWay2

2022-10-11T08:06:12Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STRichardLangHeadlessWay2
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
headless, space, experience, meditation, sam harris, people, world, steven, sensations, satanic temple, boundaries, richard, listening, happening, tyrant, true, head, satan, person, matter
SPEAKERS
Stephen Bradford Long

Stephen Bradford Long 00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast this is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long, and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com All right. Well, as always, before we get started, I have to thank my patrons. My patrons are my personal lords and saviors, and I truly could not do this without them. So for this week, I have to thank de nom ven winter, Kelly and Julia, thank you so much. I truly could not do this without you. And every little bit helps. And if you're listening to this and you'd like to join their number, please go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long for $1 $3 $5. Each month you get extra content every single week, including my podcast house of heretics with the former Salvation Army officer turned Christian heretic Timothy McPherson, and we talk about politics and meditation and philosophy and Satanism and religion and whatever is on our mind that week. So if that interests you, please go to the link in the show notes. Also, one of the best ways to support this show is to leave a five star review on Apple podcasts that tells our digital overlords that the show is worth recommending to others. You can also now leave five stars on Spotify. So I ask that you do that as well if you are listening to this on Spotify. And finally, this show is sponsored by the satanic temple.tv. The Satanic Temple has an incredibly rich and interesting and creative community. And there's all kinds of fascinating stuff going on over at the satanic temple.tv. It is a streaming platform for Satanists, and the satanic adjacent. So if you are into the occult, if you're into philosophy if you're into ritual, and there's all kinds of other stuff on there, like talk shows, live streams, music, feature length films, documentaries, there's all kinds of fascinating stuff over there. And you can get one month free using my promo code, sacred tension, all caps, no space at checkout. All right. Well, with all of that finally out of the way, I'm incredibly thrilled to welcome Richard Lang to the show. Richard Lang, how are you?

02:47
Hi, Steven. I'm Well, I'm glad to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Stephen Bradford Long 02:52
Yeah. So I'm really, really pleased that you have taken the time to talk to me because you are a teacher of one of, I think, the most fascinating forms of meditation. And I just want to say from the very top to all my listeners, this, this is going it is going to sound crazy. It is going to sound absolutely crazy. And I should appeal to them. Yes, it should. It should. And so I just ask that you hear us out. So I Thanks. What's that?

03:34
That's it. That's a vote of thanks or something? Yes, a vote of confidence.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:38
Absolutely. Just hear us out. And so I first encountered you on Sam Harris's app waking up. And as you know, because this is the the internet, I have to give the caveat that me mentioning Sam Harris, dear listeners, is not a blanket endorsement of everything Sam Harris thinks or believes, right? But he has assembled an extraordinary community of teachers on the waking up app, and you are one of those teachers. And so tell us some about who you are and what you do.

04:13
Well, I'm Richard, I'm in London, and I came across a headless way more than 50 years ago, when I was a teenager, and I was I'd been a Christian. Then I ran out of steam with that it didn't give me what I was searching for, which was really my true nature. And I started reading around when I was 16 or 17. The different religions, read a bit on Buddhism, went to the London Buddhist society summer school in 1970 and met Douglas Harding, who is the person who introduced the headless way. And he showed me who I really was with some simple experiments. And I recognized not only My true nature, but I thought this particular way is brilliant. And Douglas was always open for being visited as friends. He never had students, he had friends. So I used to go and visit him and got to know him. And very soon began running workshops myself, even when I was still at university. I traveled around America with him when I was 21, running workshops, and just fell, it was a great contribution. And he wrote a lot, I read everything he wrote. And I explored other things along the way. But my heart was always in headless way. And so I've I've traveled a lot running workshops, and made a lot of friends and continue to make more friends, people who value this particular way home, and we've got a growing community and all of that.

Stephen Bradford Long 06:02
That's wonderful. So let's go ahead and get into it. To the uninitiated, how would you describe the headless way?

06:11
Well, I would say that, if you read around a bit, the great religions, you'll find a common message, which is that you're not just what you look like to put it in modern jargon, that within you at your center is a great treasure. And this treasure is timeless and spaceless, actually, but it is creative and loving and inclusive. And that message really is in all the great religions, I would say. And I suppose each religion has a different way home to that place. But the headless way is a modern approach to that same treasure your center nearer to you than your breathing. And what it's based on, you could say is that you're not what you look like. What that means is, there's a question, the question is, Who am I what am I? And what am I from my own point of view. And you can start, however, with other people's points of view, which is if you look at me from six feet of a person with a head, you know, if I'm asking the question, What am I? I might say, well, Steven, who do you think I am? And you'll say, well, you're Richard. And I say, well, you're that far away, you see. So you're six feet away. So you can see Richard, but I understand that things change with when distance when the observers distance change. So what happens if you come up to me? And you say, well, at this closer range, you're just a patch of skin? I go, Oh, that's interesting. Come closer, with the right instrument. Oh, you're a cell? Oh, you're a moral molecule. Oh, you're an atom. Oh, my goodness, you've you've practically disappeared. So in other words, I'm like an onion. And what I am changes with range. And in fact, you could go away and you could see that the greater distance my town comes into view, and then my country, and my planet, my style, my galaxy, you see. So then the question is, well, what am I the center of all these layers? It's not Richard, because Richard is one of the layers, which I important there, but just one of the layers. So how do you find out what is at the center? So that's a modern, scientific way of rephrasing the question, Who am I? And half? The question is, Who am I for others? And that changes with range. And the other half of the question is who I am, who am I for myself. And when I look, simply to see what I am, I noticed I can't see my head. And I know I can see it in the mirror or on the screen if I'm on a video meeting. But right where I am, when I look down, my body disappears above my chest, I can see maybe a bit of my nose, I've got sensations, but other than that, no head, and what do I see, instead of my head? I see the world and I could that I think is such a simple observation. Now obviously, you need to explore it more in lots of from lots of angles. But that's the basic thing. What are you looking out of? And society has told you from their point of view, from its point of view, what you are a person, but I'm saying that put aside for the moment what society tells you what your memory or your knowledge or upbringing tells you unlock now, what can you see? You see, and I find this open awareness for the world. So that's a status Steven.

Stephen Bradford Long 09:48
So where your head should be is just the world. Yes.

09:52
And when I look at you, you'll see this changes everything because when I look at you, I see your face but not mine. So I say that from my point of view, I have your face instead of mine, I am face to face with you. I am you. Yeah, now that you see is a game changer.

Stephen Bradford Long 10:10
So I think that what this is getting at is what Sam Harris calls non dual meditation. So I was I was actually as I was falling asleep last night, I came up with this metaphor to try to explain my experience of meditation, it's like the, the way we typically go through life is imagine a river and it's like, I'm, I'm a swimmer, but I'm caught in the rapids. And it's like the, the river is the experience of life itself. The river is our emotions, our reactions, our responses, our relationships, the whole, you know, breath, the whole river of life, right, and kind of our default state is to ride along the top of that river just carried along by it, right. But then it's almost like mindfulness meditation. Vipassana is putting your feet down in the sand in the river bed, and holding still, so you're no longer being carried along by it, and then turning around and facing that incoming flow of experience and just experiencing it and letting it wash over you. But then non dual meditation, and this is where I might lose people. But it's true to my experience, what Sam Harris calls non dual meditation is the awakening to the fact that there is no swimmer, at the heart of that river, there is just the river. And that's it. And so the the experience of you vanishing, that sense of self, of being a, a being behind your eyes, thinking and reacting and so on. That's an illusion. And I remember the first time that I experienced this, and I had been meditating for years, and I've been a yoga teacher, and and, and so on, but it was Sam Harris, who, in his introductory course, on waking up, where he, it was very simple. He, you know, in the middle of a meditation, he said, Look, for the one who is looking look for the thinker, you have a feeling of being a thinker, you have a feeling of being a you have this feeling of being a subject looking at an object. And I'm totally lifting all of this language from Sam Harris, by the way. So the none of none of this language is original that I'm using, and when but when I did that, when I looked for the one who was looking inside myself, my sense of self was snuffed out like a candle, and it was so startling. It was so sudden, and it was so startling to me that it was almost like suddenly, I had my body revolted adjust, and then my sense of self just roared back into existence. And so it, it was like, a second of selflessness. What you are describing is a different another approach using our visual field to also experience that non dual experience of no self and instead open awareness. Would you say that that is a good articulation of what you're getting at?

13:35
Nothing? That's very good. Yes, even. I think that, first of all, the headless way isn't just visual, that's a good way in but this is about testing the hypothesis that you are space for the world that you're not what you look like, and you test it in every way you can. The The other thing is that, actually, personally, I'm not that much of a fan of the phrase non dual, but everyone to their own, you see, because the experience itself is nonverbal. And the experience itself is also the most accessible thing. It's a joke really, though your awakening to your true nature is advertised to be difficult. And you know, looking at an object in front of you is easy, but seeing your true nature is hard. It's actually the other way around. I will demonstrate this now because I think that the listener, and I'm just going to guide our attention to our true nature and then then you've got it then you're the authority. You see. So

Stephen Bradford Long 14:39
before we do this, if people are driving while listening to this, maybe be careful. If people are driving while listening to this podcast, maybe don't do this exercise. I don't know maybe. Maybe they shouldn't do this while while driving. A lot of people listen to the show while driving. So just a quick warning.

14:57
If if you're driving Having then don't do the pointing experiment, which I'm going to take you through. couldn't imagine doing it, I'll do it later. There we go, what do you see what the the are seeing your true nature, which is what it's all about seeing this boundless awareness that you are and then living from that, and exploring living from that. So they, the whole thing is right from the beginning to have the experience rather than wait for it. And so, if you're not driving, what you do is you get your hand and you point at something in front of you. So this is I think, Steven, you were going to say at the beginning, it's crazy, you know, well, it's not crazy, it actually is very childlike, you pointed something, and you look at that. And so that's pretty easy to see. You see, you're pointing at a thing, but I mean, you can't see the back of it, you may not be able to see the inside of it, you, you don't know what it looked like, you know, a year ago, perhaps or, you know, there's so much you don't know about it that you don't see about it. So there's a very partial scene and point at one other thing in front of you. And it's the same human see the color and shape and texture, but you probably can't see the inside of it, or the back of it, or you don't know how it was made or all of that. All right. Now turn your finger around and point where others see your face. So you got to do this directly point back at this you're looking at of and you don't see your face here. So I'm going to describe this in positive terms, I see open space here, that is full of my finger. Now there's nothing to get wrong here, you can't have see the space, you can't see the front, not the back, or the left side or you know, it's just indivisibly open. And that space that you're looking out or this fall now of your finger, my voice and everything else going on. And that is it. So very quickly, I need to say that this is not necessarily Oh, wow experience. And we have this idea that waking up to your true nature is going to be a big round, and you'll never have any more problems and you've got it you will never lose it or whatever that means, you know, now everybody will, you know, bow at your feet. Well, you know, the last one I get but the rest No. Joking. But to be serious, this is a neutral experience, which is confusing for people because of this advertisement. It's supposed to be a Wow. But I mean, I look now for my face, I don't see it. Instead, I see the world. And it is a kind of neutral thing. But there are a couple of things to say about it. First of all, it's neutrality. I mean, first of all, is it true? That's the fundamental thing, whether you like it or not, whether it gives you a wow or not, is it true? And the headless ways about testing that, and you might come up with all kinds of objections, well, I can see my nose or I can feel sensations or, well, we test those we go into those. You don't accept any of these. But But you you test it. So the first thing is it true. The second thing is that I say you got it, you can't see your head instead you see the world, but you will react differently from anyone else. And temptation is to look at someone else and they go wow. And you think, Well, I didn't go Wow. So I can't have got it. You know, or they seem to be incredibly calm now. But I'm all agitated. You see. So I kind of got it. No, you got it, but you're just feeling agitated. So we can think about that. But my challenge or my my claim is that this is the simplest thing to get. But it's not a while. But there's one more thing I want to say which is that it is neutral. And yet it is extremely positive, you could say because this space that you're looking out on. First of all, it's aware self evidently, here I am. Secondly, it is full. It's not just empty. It's full of the whole world, and it welcomes the world. And when you're with people it welcomes then. So actually, on the one hand, it's neutral, but on the other it is hugely welcoming, hugely positive. And well, that's there's a Stata, yes.

Stephen Bradford Long 19:36
Would you say that part of the experience is, let me see if I can put this into words. Part of the experience is kind of separating our labels and conceptions of what it means to be a human with a body with a head. You know, it's like we see ourselves in the mirror. We see other people walking around us. And so we have this, this kind of conceptual framework of we have ahead, we our mind is behind it behind our face, and kind of divorcing that that conceptual framework from what we actually experience. Does that make? Does that make any sense? Yeah,

20:25
good way of putting it, Stephen. And I'll fill in on that a bit. But I would say that everyone will describe it a little bit differently. And it, that, I understand that. So the, you know, you'll say it in that way. And I'll say it in my way, but the third person will say it in another way. And they're all valid, right? So what you said there about the difference between what you look like in the mirror to others, and so on Weatherhead. And what you are from your own point of view is headless. And there's the difference between your insight and your outside, what you are at center and what you are from a distance. But briefly, we can fill that out a bit by thinking of personal development, very simply four stages, the baby, the child, the adult, and the seer, the baby's headless, when you were a baby, you were headless, you pre verbal, you just looking at open space, you're at large, there you go. You see, you have no idea of what you look like look in the mirror, that's not you. As you grow up, your parents and others reflect back what you look like to them, which is with a head, and they pointed the mirror and say that head there is on your shoulders, you can't see it. But we can, you need to learn to understand, like you said that you're behind that face that your thoughts are behind that face somewhere in that head, so that you can function so that you can understand who people are talking to. And those what do you see, you can become self conscious. So the second stage of the child is you're coming out of being this, only this open space and becoming self conscious. But you move back and forth, you haven't quite got in the box. When you're four or five years old, you'll see as you continue to grow up and get involved in society, all the feedback is of you as a person, what you look like at six feet, none of it actually is about what you are for yourself. No one is validating your spaciousness, everyone is validating your solidity, which is totally appropriate, you need to take that on board. So in the third stage of the adult, then you are completely identified with what you look like look in the mirror, that's you. If anyone said you were headless, you go, you're mad, cause I've got ahead, I'm a thing. I'm a solid thing separate from everyone else I am what I look like you say. So that's the third stage. And hopefully you don't stop there. And you go on to the fourth stage, which is reawakening to your own first personhood, which is headless and spacious, whilst maintaining awareness of your third personhood, your appearance. So I'm talking to you, Steven, and I'm more aware of my open space in which we're happening and the whole world is happening. But I'm also aware of being Richard and you being Steven. So the difference between the last stage and the first stage is is a baby had an idea of your individuality, you would just spacious but in the fourth stage of this year, you've got both and you don't have to somehow get rid of your sense of individuality that is all part of that stage where

Stephen Bradford Long 23:52
another I'm just trying to think of analogies that might be helpful for this so slight, you know, my one of the experiences that I sometimes have within meditation is kind of the breaking down of arbitrary boundaries. For example, this will probably complicate things for my listeners, but I'll go for it anyway. It's like deep in a mindfulness practice, the boundary we going through life, we tend to have a sense of boundaries between inside the body and outside the body, for example, thoughts and sounds, thoughts and sights, emotions, and thoughts. And it's like deep when we're deep in a meditation practice. The boundaries between all of these kind of partitioned experiences really start to break down and is like the realization that as a matter of pure experience, they're all actually happening in the same sphere, just in the same conscious space, and the boundaries are super imposed. The boundaries are super imposed on to that kind of, you know, sphere of experience. And so the boundaries of inside outside thoughts and feelings, sound and thought, so on and so forth. All of that is super imposed by us. But as a matter of pure experience, if we pay really close attention, then it starts to dissolve. There's a, there's a similar thing that happens with the headless way, I think where it's like, as a matter of pure experience, it's like we know, technically, that we have ahead, physically we know it. But as a matter of experience, if we pay really close attention to just the conscious experience, there is no center. And there's just this open awareness. And it's like, if we pay close enough attention, then these arbitrary in positions that we place on experience, just through living our lives, you know, and looking at ourselves in the mirror and interacting with others, and so on. And it's all very developed, you know, developmentally appropriate, but it's also from a purely experiential level, and illusion. Am I Is that helpful that I might have just wake overly complicated things? But is that a helpful way to articulate that?

26:37
Well, yes, and it's your way of articulating it now. And I would add to that, that the headless way is ongoing meditation, I'm meditating. Now, if you want to give it the August total, I'm saying that I'm spaced for what is happening. And this is natural, I would I would add something or put it slightly differently that it doesn't for me mean that I've got to stop thinking or kind of trying to raise my boundaries, all of that knowledge is happening in the space too. And one realizes, one can keep both things running, really I am space with no boundary, everything is in me. And at the same time, I can see a difference between me and Steven or so on. The other thing that I will throw in here as well is a developmental thing, again, which is called a theory of mind. Now, when you are a baby, by and large, you have no developed awareness that others are conscious. And you're if you have thoughts or feelings, they're just part of the view, like you were saying, you know, the sound is there, and the feeling is there. And the sensation of hungry is there that is not inside a box here. And you look at someone and you look at their face their head, and you have no idea, no developed idea that there are thoughts in that head, a mind over there separate from you. And they do tests to explore whether an infant has worked out yeah, that others have a different experience for them. And do you know that one of the box and the Grands, Stephen, oh, it's fascinating. Well, what you do is you got young infant, and you put a box in front of them, and you open it, and you show that there's colored crayons in the box, and then you close the box. And someone comes in the room and you ask the infant? Does that person know what's in the box? And you say, of course they do. There are grand in the box. I mean, it's just knowledge, right? There's just there are crayons in the box. So it's common knowledge, you ask the same child do the same thing, put different things in the box, I suppose six months later. And the child says of course, they don't know, they didn't see. So now they understand that what you think and feel and see what I think and feel and see is hidden. And that that person over there has a different experience. Now this is called theory of mind. So in other words, you now understand that that person has a mind that you can't see. Right? Which also means that's the theory of mind goes with a theory of head that you have a head you can't see because you've got thoughts, but they can't see them. So they must be in your head. Right? Right. They can't be out there in the world. So

Stephen Bradford Long 29:43
it's almost like a self reflect. So it's like reflecting that reality back on yourself.

29:49
Yes, yeah. Yeah, there you go. You see now. So then that is an important phase of maturity. And that is individuating and you Got to consolidate that. And develop your sense of a boundary and that your thoughts are not out there in the world they're hidden. And when a child can start to keep secrets, or even tell lies, from a certain point of view, this is a very good sign, because they are aware that their inner experience is private. And that they can lie about it, no one will know it. So that is a good sign. Yes. Now, you've got that going as an adult. And now you think that theory of mind and theory of head is the way it is, and you function on that, even though if you're really honest, you don't know that anyone else you're thinking there might be zombies, right? You might be only wise. That's a solipsism. Yes, you see, but you function as if there are others. And as if you're in a box. Now, when you wake up to who you really are, you see, oh, no head, no box, right? And no mind out there. Or you could say, well, I still feel like I'm in a box. And there's someone there. But now I know that when I attend, my voice doesn't come from a mouth that comes out the silence. And my thoughts, you know, think of a number where does that come from just comes out of nowhere, right? Out of no mind. So then I apply the same thing to the other person, I say, Well, I accept your thinking. But now I know, you're like me that your thoughts come out of no mind there. So there's the theory of no mind. So Stephen, you see, I now that I'm aware I am space for the world, I say to you, well, I accept that you're in the same condition. Right. And now we have an incredible thing in common, our identity, and we can talk about it as we are doing now. And I've got my voice, you've got your voice, you've got your view out from the space, I've got my view from the space. But there's nothing in the in the space itself to divide us. Now, that is a game changer.

Stephen Bradford Long 32:07
It is. Yeah. And you know, I frequently so I'm my day job is I manage a grocery store. So I am constantly surrounded by the public my entire life is just people nonstop. And doing this practice of, you know, while I am surrounded by people say I'm at the cash register, and I just look around and I'm like, where's my head? I don't notice I you know, I don't see my head there's, and then I point at my face. And I pointed myself, and I'm like, What am I pointing at? Nothing. There's nothing there. There's nothing. As a matter of pure experience. There's nothing that I'm pointing at. And then I look around and I see all of these people. And all of these people being in this wide open judgment. Lis space. Yeah. And it's a it's a really special experience. It's like this embrace of other just this non judgmental without concepts without judgment This, this. I don't know how to describe it other than just an embrace of well, you've described it very well. Yeah, an embrace of, of whoever is in your sphere of experience, and just this welcome. And it, it is a game changer. And then and then when you realize that other people are all, as you said, are also that same experience, whether they are aware of it or not. Yes, it changes. It transforms the Dole and the quotidian and the mundane and to the sacred.

33:54
Yes. And, yeah, yeah. And

Stephen Bradford Long 33:57
so I like to think of the grocery store where I work as my monastery. And so it's like, every day I go to my monastery, and I and I do these practices. Could you

34:09
just to say that that's inspiring, and that's beautiful. Stephen, and I know exactly what you're talking about. And I, you know, people may not know what you are experiencing, but they'll pick up on something because people are sensitive. And these things are infectious. And, you know, to see when you're in the grocery store that you're not actually in the grocery grocery store. It's in you, right? Yes. It's, you see walls and you don't see the fold as

Stephen Bradford Long 34:42
a matter as a matter of experience. It's like as a matter of experience and so you know, and this is an I think an important confusion that could possibly happen there are there are some people who might hear that and think, oh, they mean literally physically. It is inside of us. It is as A matter of, of conscious experience that the eye end. So you know, I'm, I'm fairly agnostic on the nature of reality, right. But as a matter of experience, when I look around, that is my consciousness, I am seeing my consciousness, and it is all happening in this open space, that is me, as a matter of experience. Yeah, and by the way, for I'm I'm lifting the term as a matter of experience, also from Sam Harris, Mr. Harris from Mr. Harris. Hi, Sam. Hello, Sam, I doubt he doesn't know I exist. So I doubt that He will even listen to this, but I need to give credit where credit is due. And so a lot of the language a lot of the most helpful language that I have found for this kind of stuff comes from Sam Harris. And again, dear internet, that does not mean that I agree with everything, Sam Harris says we can, you know, have a nuanced view of certain public figures and appreciate their teachings in some areas and then disagree with them and others, it is possible,

36:10
who agrees with any one 100%

Stephen Bradford Long 36:12
I disagree with my with my husband, there isn't. There isn't a single human being on this planet who I agree with completely.

36:21
Yes, but our true nature, the space that you're talking about, is the same isn't as old, there's nothing different differentiating us from each other. Now, that is where we won. So we don't have to worry too much when we see things differently. And we understand that the words are going to be different. But you see just as you in the grocery store, our ears and are conscious and are appreciative of what's going on. And that awareness leads to a kind of sensitivity and even kindness. And you know, you were saying you're not bored. It's all rather interesting. I'm never bored. No, yeah, you see. So I think that this is, you've got to live it, you've got to explore it. You've got to play with it. You've got to attend to it, you know, but my God, what, what a endlessly inspiring treasure this is.

Stephen Bradford Long 37:23
And I think that's one of the things that I so appreciate about the headless way, and Douglas Harding and yourself is that there's a playfulness to it that is so often lacking in a lot of contemplative life. Does that? Does that make sense in that, like, there's, there's a lot of it's a very somber, so much of the culture surrounding meditation is just so somber, and I, and I love how playful and light hearted the headless way is, it is a breath of fresh air for me.

38:08
I think that perhaps one aspect of that, is that if you think that you've got to clean up your act, in order to find out who you really are you, I believe you got an impossible job. And it's depressing. And it's hard work. And it's very incremental. And if you're honest with yourself, you keep backsliding, I would say, you know, who doesn't? If that is what it's all about. The road gets longer and longer. And you think, well, in this lifetime, or when, and there's no guarantee. So that you can I would find that depressing. And I'd give up I think, but actually the truth is you can get straight home right now. Look to the look at the pleasure looking out of and then walk your journey at from home really. Now that is light now is playful. I mean, your home, and it's not dependent. You say, Well, Richard, you look depressed. You know, you've told me you were depressed yesterday, you can't be at home, I say, have space for depression. You know, our space for anxiety. I mean, my God, there's a war going on. It's a very understandable feeling, but I am space for it all. And I'm coming from that space, you see, and that is that is serious, but it's not. Solon. As you say it's light. And it's light hearted and it's light weighted, and it's free. And the other thing is, is that you see when I'm talking to you, Steven, I have just wouldn't cross my mind that you're experiencing anything different from me. Right? Yeah. So there isn't a kind of, you know, I think Steven, really, you know, you should sort of clean up your act a bit. I mean, really, you know, you've got a bit of work to do here,

Stephen Bradford Long 40:08
look at my needs to be cleaned. Jordan, I really need to clean my room.

40:13
Even, you know, on the end of that with you, you know, in fact, my purity, you know, I mean, that is, we're two humans and one space, right. And the space is ours. And it means there's no hierarchy, and, you know, no one upmanship and no getting anywhere at the level of our human development, there's an awful lot to do. But at the level of where we're coming from, this is, yes, a joy that has no downside, actually,

Stephen Bradford Long 40:50
what you just said, it gets to a, a, an experience that I had, so I am in the LGBTQ community, I'm gay I am. And so I'm surrounded by a lot of very diverse people, and it's wonderful. And so I'm, I'm surrounded by trans people and gay people and people of color and, and, and people with disabilities. And it's just kind of this wonderful, diverse community and in wild, wild doing my practice, and you really do, it's like coming up, uh, you know, when you press up against the nature of your own consciousness there, I, I had this, this, I had this really profound sense. And it wasn't a big experience, it was just this very quiet experience of realizing, Oh, no matter how different we are on the outside, no matter our skin color, no matter our different disabilities, no matter, our different orientations, sexual orientations, no matter our different genders. The fundamental quality of mind is the exact same, and the way that expands empathy is pretty incredible.

42:20
Yes, yes, helplessness leads to empathy.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:24
It does it Yes. To an expanding circle of ASHRAE.

42:28
Yes, and in the most fundamental way, because I know that you're looking at, you know, you've got a headless body that you're looking at. And that's not a trivial thing that is noticing your body disappears into the source into this mystery. You say you call it space, but the mystery, the source, the origin, and that that is common in all of us. And therefore, in a sense, I'm, by being aware of it where I am, I'm, I'm being aware of it where you are, I'm placing myself in your shoes. This means that i i have deep empathy for you. What are you doing that you've got? I got bit distracted.

Stephen Bradford Long 43:07
I'm so sorry. My cat needed to come into the room. Oh. That's Eli. He is one of suits. I am a I'm a crazy cat lady. And my partner has forbidden me from bringing home any more cats. So I can hear,

43:28
but I'll add one thing, guys, yes, please. Because, because when you say who you are, we call it trading faces, I look at you and I've got your face and you've got mine. We trade faces, you see. And so in that sense, I'm in you, and you're in me. And in other words, when I look at you, I become you. I'm not Richard, I'm Steven. Now, I mean that there's nothing in the way there's no distance, there's no service here keeping you out, or the cat, or the cat. And this is very practical. You know, when you're in your store, and you've got a customer, you are there your space for them. This is attentive, this is sensitive, this is empathic. This is what the world needs. And it's the truth. It's not a technique to make things nicer and deny a conflict not at all. It is realistic, it's tough, in a way. But at the same time, that toughness of that honesty is inclusive, and you become the other. I mean, you I don't think you can ever get used to it. It's such a game changer.

Stephen Bradford Long 44:33
It is kind of startling every time you experience it there it and it's the closest thing to real magic that I've ever experienced.

44:43
Yes, it is magic. It is. I mean, where does it all come from? I mean, you look out of this open space and there's the world and you go, where did that come from? That's a clever magic trick, you know, and it keeps keeps happening. And it's real. You know, and it's, it's, it's coming out of your true nature, you know, this is endlessly inspiring. And that connects with all the myths, you know, the, the Grail or the Oracle or, you know, Aladdin's cave. This is like Aladdin's cave. It's got endless riches coming out, or always we've known about this. You know, since culture began since humans began, we know it's forever, because it's just the truth. But here we are, sharing it today and appreciating it in this particular way. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 45:32
you bring up myth is, I think, really important. So I can hear too, oh, my cat is pushing the mic. I can hear two objections coming from my audience right now. So the first would probably have to do with the fourth Tenet, no, fifth tenet of the Satanic Temple, which is belief should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world, we should take care of never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs. And I think that a lot of people who are listening who might be maybe because of previous experiences, and in religious settings, they might be a bit allergic to a lot of the kind of language that we're using, and might assume that this is contrary to science to to kind of scientific reasoning. And I really want to push back against that idea. I see no contradiction between what we are talking about, and a scientific view of the world. And I see no violation here of the fifth tenet of, you know, not distorting scientific facts to fit our beliefs that as this is a matter of experience. And we can have extraordinarily diverse experiences of consciousness that are profound, that have a meaningful impact on our lives. And that doesn't need to contradict our scientific understanding of the world. There is no contradiction here. And I think the same is true of ritual. So for people who have been listening to my podcast, go listen to my interviews with Shiva, honey, about about the importance of ritual and doing a cult ritual and satanic ritual, and how helpful that is for catharsis and there is no contradiction, necessarily, between the importance of ritual and symbolism, and our scientific understanding of the world. And then I guess the, the other objection that I hear,

47:36
Can I just jump in, just please just briefly, is one of the books in the headless way Barack was hiding, it's called The Science of the first person, the science of the first person. And this is the science of what you are for yourself. And it complements the science of the third person's hands of objects. And when I use phrases, you know, religious or spiritual phrases, or words, you know, I treat them very lightly as vocabulary that you can take or leave. The main thing is your experience. And, as they say, there's two ways of reading the scriptures. One is to read the Scriptures to see if you got it. Right. And the other one is to read the Scriptures to see if they've got it. Right. And I go with the second, right, you are the authority on what it's like to be you and take or leave the language. So that's my response to that first objection.

Stephen Bradford Long 48:38
Absolutely. And, and then the second objection is more specific to TST to the Satanic Temple itself, where I think some people might be hearing this and hear the language of no self or selflessness or open space or you know, just a lot of that language and feel a conflict with Satanism as a religion of the self that that celebrates the unbowed will it celebrates the the unbowed individual who stands up against totalitarian authority. And so, Richard if, and this is so the, the Satan that that we are referring to as a literary Satan kind of more rooted in Milton, and it's symbolic, we're non theistic, we don't believe in a literal God instead, it's a symbolic structure around which we we build our lives. And so Satan in this context is a literary icon that is based on the mill Tony and Satan that stands up against, you know, insurmountable odds against the totalitarian authority of quote unquote God, but in this context, God does not is not like a Paul Tillich. and ground of being or anything like that it is the tyrant it is. It is that that's, that's the inversion of this metaphor, right? So Satanism is a religion that celebrates the individual, how does that mesh with the headless way, which is just openness, open experience, or meditation in general, which can be a sense of the dissolving of the self. I have here, the revolt of the angels, which is one of the primary readings for the Satanic Temple at the end of the revolt of the angels. Satan decides not to invade heaven and everyone who is a TST, Satanists will be very familiar with this passage. But he says, No, let's not invade the heavens, Satan becoming God said God, Satan, God conquered will become Satan, Satan conquering will become God, let us avoid that fate. Instead, it is enough for us to conquer God in our own hearts. And Anatole France isn't referring to God as the Christian God, but God is the tyrant. And so when Satan at the end of revolt of the angel says, Let us conquer God in our own hearts, I interpret that to mean, let us conquer our inner tyrant, let us conquer that that inner tyrant that imposes boundaries that imposes arbitrary boundaries that result in a lack of compassion and empathy. It's the self fullness that results in arrogance, and pride and bullying and all of those things. And so at the end of revolt of the angels, Anatole, France turns the focus from outward revolution, to inward revolution against our own inner tyrant. And, for me, personally, the best way that I have found to explore that process to go on that kind of satanic journey of overcoming our inner Tyrant is meditation and stuff like the headless way it over it quiet, my inner tyrant that is obsessed with boundaries and divisions, and, and obsessed with delegating, who is worthy of compassion and who isn't. And so that is a helpful way for me to incorporate this practice into satanic religious practice.

52:31
Yes, I think I understand you there. And being aware that your space the world is not, as I said, denying your separate individuality, they both go together. But what has happened, as we've grown up is we've allowed others to tell us who we are. And so when you see who you are, you're taking back your authority, you're, you're the authority on you. And in a sense, you're not going to let anyone tell you, who you are, you're going to look for yourself. And I look, and I see you, Richard and Steven on the screen there. But here, I see this open space, and I accept both. So it's very simple, in a way.

Stephen Bradford Long 53:15
Yes, absolutely. Before we wrap up, could you lead us in looking for our heads?

53:22
Yes. Well, I think maybe we're just very briefly close our eyes. And you if you do that, you will become aware of a darkness. And put aside your imagination, I suppose, or whatever and and ask yourself, well, how big is the darkness? Well, there's, there's nothing to compare it with. It's just there it is. And where is it? You see? Now I suppose you've been told it's in your head. But at the moment, I don't find I've got sensations, I don't find my head. They don't misses appearing in consciousness. And then you listen to my voice and other sounds, you see, that's the field of sound. And isn't where's that happening? And I find no container, the sounds are coming out of silence, I'm going back into silence you see. And then I pay attention to my body sensations is cloud of sensation, I suppose. without remembering what I saw in the mirror. And so on, or what I saw when I looked down my body, other sensations contained, see, where are they? How big is the field of sensation? And in other words, how big am I when I have nothing to compare myself with? There's only one consciousness in my own direct experience. And the same with thoughts and feelings. I mean, lots of thoughts and feelings going on. Which I call my mind, I suppose. But how big is my mind? And where is it? Is it well, it's is just happening there, in like the darkness and the sounds and the sensations. And it's happening in this open space, you see, now what the listener is thinking about. And sensing is different from what I am sensing, but the space that it's all happening in, has no one's name on it, or nationality, or age or anything. And I say that's who you really are, including your thoughts and feelings, and memories and sense of who you are as a person. That's all arising in this space. So that is accessible, and not depend on mood. You see an eye you open your eyes again. And basically, nothing's really changed. Now you've got the visual field happening in awareness, and everything else going on. But the pleasure looking out of is this open, undivided space that we all have in common that brings us together, which is so important to be aware of, in today's world with all the conflict, there's a little guided meditation, Steven,

Stephen Bradford Long 56:09
thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Yeah. So

56:12
now just say that we have zoom meetings, and anyone who's does the experiments and feels drawn to the headless way is welcome to, to drop in. They're free. And there's lots on the website. So you know, lots more experiments and YouTube channel, and even a free equals, so there's lots available. So headless.org is our website. And you feel welcome to get in touch if you're drawn to this way. And thank you, Steven, for inviting me and just a delight to hear your experience in the store. That's really inspiring. And you'll probably get someone walking in and saying, face no face Stephen. Would love it great.

Stephen Bradford Long 56:56
It would be fantastic. Yeah, absolutely.

56:59
I'm saying to you now face no face Stephen and the joy to share it with you and hope to meet you again.

Stephen Bradford Long 57:05
Absolutely. You're welcome back anytime. This has been a pleasure. All right. Well, that is it for this show. The theme song is wild by eleventy seven. You can find it on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to music. The show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long and it is a production of rock candy recordings. As always, Hail Satan, and thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-ST Remembering Christopher Hitchens FINAL9xql2

2022-10-11T08:06:12Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

ST_Remembering_Christopher_Hitchens_FINAL9xql2
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
hitchens, book, people, read, died, wrote, christopher hitchens, trump, feel, bernie, influences, thought, engaged, literature, michael brooks, positions, taunton, world, fucking, hated
SPEAKERS
Ben Burgis, Stephen Bradford Long

00:00
You're listening to a rock candy Podcast. I'm Erica Michelle, I host a voice diary called brown sugar diaries on the right kick network where I spill all the tea about my dating experiences life lessons, my journey to healing and wholeness my life as an entrepreneur, student, doctor and CEO of a nonprofit and I give my opinion on the current happenings of the world. You see why I have a lot of stuff to talk about Tim into brown sugar bands wherever you listen to podcasts and listed on this team or why you cook your business should okay.

Stephen Bradford Long 00:48
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long, and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com. And this episode is brought to you by my patrons. My patrons are my personal lords and saviors and I truly could not do this without them. And not only do they sustain this show, they also helped me with like basic life stuff like last month, I had to repair my car, I would not have been able to do that without my patrons. So every little bit helps. And I truly appreciate it. I am indebted to my patrons. So for this week, I have to thank Bryson Cooper and Brigitte Nicks. Thank you so much. It means the whole world to me and anyone listening who wants to join their number, you can go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long for just $1 a month. You get all kinds of extra content every single week, including my house of heretics podcast with the Salvation Army officer turned Christian heretic Timothy McPherson. There is also a link in the show notes. Also one of the best ways to support this show is to leave a five star review on Apple podcasts. And here is a five star review from someone in the United States they say knocked it out of the park. The episode on Bridgette Eileen Rivera's book about the ways the church has burden to the LGBTQ community was very interesting. I had no idea that Martin Luther was so affirming of human sexuality and I am a Lutheran from the ELCA. Very sweet review. We love our Lutherans here. I also loved that interview with Brigitte Eileen Rivera. It was a great interview to start out the new year. All right. Well, with all of that finally out of the way, I am delighted to welcome Ben Burgis back to the show. He has written a new book on Christopher Hitchens, how are you?

Ben Burgis 02:55
I'm very good. Thank you for having me back.

Stephen Bradford Long 02:58
Yeah, of course. I think it's been a few years. I think you were on like in 2018, or 2019. I can't remember. Yeah, but it's been a while. It's great to see you again. So tell us some about who you are and what you do.

Ben Burgis 03:13
Yeah, I am a adjunct philosophy professor at Morehouse College in Atlanta. I'm a columnist for Jacobin magazine. And I host a show called give them an argument. And now there's a sort of extension on Colin called, give me an argument. And I also wrote some books. So most recently, Christopher Hitchens, what he got right how he went wrong, and why he still matters.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:41
Yeah, you are also and I just have to bring this up, because he was such a huge influence on me, Michael Brooks. You were a regular on his show. And he just had the most untimely death. Was it was it? It was last year, it was the beginning of last year. Am I right about that? Or was it 2006?

Ben Burgis 04:02
It was the it was like late summer 2020. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 04:05
that's right. It was such a huge tragedy and broke my heart and you were a regular contributor on his show. So and that, that I think is where I found out about you like he exposed me to so much. I learned so much from him. And like I really, really, really feel his loss massively. So you wrote this book about Christopher Hitchens? Why? It's great. By the way, I read it. I read it over the weekend. It is fucking fantastic. It's short, but it's really, really lovely. And it gets into a lot of themes that hopefully we'll be able to get to in this conversation. So why what what drew you to this figure? Why would you write a book about him?

Ben Burgis 04:58
Yeah, I think it's somebody I was always I'm interested in like going, you know, way back, right? So I'm in, like, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to turn 42 In a few months, so I'm just old enough that, you know, I was reading his minority report columns in the nation in the late 90s. I didn't I didn't always love all of his positions. But you know, I always thought he was a great writer and, you know, and interest in RAID Ghana, he had somewhat fell off my radar for a while, in the in the 2000s. You know, I was vaguely aware that, you know, he had taken foreign policy positions that, you know, I hated very much, but like, he really kind of came back onto my radar in late 2000s, you know, when he was one of the four horsemen of new Atheism? Yep. And, and I remember, in particular, watching this, well, part of it, I think, I think the, I think the YouTube video I had originally discovered, was just like his opening statement, in this debate that he did with his brother Peter, about the existence of God, which is, you know, certainly certainly, for me, it's like, watch it, that thing is kind of whiplash, because, you know, I later discovered this was like, this was a what they did, it was like, a two hour thing where they had they spent an hour of it, arguing about religion and our if it argued about the word Iraq, you know, so So I, you know, my, my sympathies sort of flipped between the two brothers. The two, the two parts of it, but, but but I thought that he, that statement, you know, which, that's, that's one of the debates I talked about in the book. But, you know, I don't know, I, you know, like, I used to, like, show friends of mine, you know, like that video, you know, I guess, I guess, I just thought it was really good, even though even at the time, I had some reservations about sort of atheism as like this sort of, you know, identity or movement or whatever, like, like, but there already some reason, you know, some reasons that didn't make sense to me. But, but even so, like, I thought that the way that he presented his kind of humanistic critique of, like, moral critique of of Christianity, which is really what he was doing in that statement, you know, in this way, that was like, both, you know, rigorously laid out, but also, you know, I thought, emotionally powerful, you know, in it, you know, like, like, I really fascinated me, at the at the time, and I guess, yeah, I'm trying to try to remember some of the timeline here. But certainly, you know, certainly by the, you know, the end. You know, I think it was, yeah, I think like I had, I think shortly before he died in December 2011, you know, which that, you know, this book was meant to sort of why, you know, why this seemed like, a good time, you know, was was that, you know, we just passed the, you know, the 10 year anniversary of his death. And you know, so I thought this would be a time that people would be sort of interested and open to kind of revaluations of Christopher Hitchens. But certainly, before he died, I had read his memoir, hits 22. I remember also, and also remember, like this, this this part has, like absolutely nothing to do with politics, or, you know, religion already there, really, you know, but I remember reading in Slate, some of the essays that he was writing as he was dying, which, I mean, I don't I don't cover the book, but he, but there's this little volume that came out afterwards, like we'll slim book called mortality, that is a collection of basically the stuff that he wrote, you know, about, you know, I almost said about his battle with cancer, because that's such a, you know, that's, that's, like such a culturally pervasive way to put it, you know, but I think the, I think in some of those essays, he kind of talks about why he doesn't like that phrase, but, you know, the, but, you know, but like, any of this is, like, really effective, and sort of more effective, because it's very, like, unsentimental kind of way. You know, he's, he's talking about what that experience is like, and just sort of like see the lot of, you know, like, all the sort of human things are kind of stripped away from him, you know, through that. The remember he, you know, he says at one point, you know, that he's like, sick enough that you know, that the that his his nurse could be Penelope Cruz, and who wouldn't notice

Stephen Bradford Long 09:46
that and that brings us to just like his extraordinary wet like, when I when we scheduled this interview, I went back to watch rewatch some of his videos like his debate alongside Steve Ben Frey about Catholicism. And he just has like the most incredible lines. Like, you know, I never wish for the death of anyone, but I wish but I wish for the death of the Pope because there is this blessed period of time when the Enclave is assembled when no one on this planet claims to be infallible, and it's just like, absolutely fucking hysterical, or he, you know, when he was interviewed on Fox News after Jerry Falwell's deaths. And he, he uses this line, if you gave him an enema, he would fit in a matchbox. Flow, it would just like flow off his tongue. It was it was incredible. And you know, the way I describe writers like him, and I feel like there's this meta commentary in your book, and, and it's what really interests me about your book, how he's a problematic figure. And yet your book is kind of a homage to him. And the way I describe writers like him, is he is so good, that even in the act of disagreeing with him, I become smarter.

Ben Burgis 11:24
That is, that is exactly it. Right. Yes. Yeah. And I think, you know, in some ways, right, like, the last part of the subtitle, the you know, why he still matters, you know, is the sort of least explicit of the book I made, I kind of, you know, the, the very last part of it, you know, is sort of the closest that comes to make it explicit, that's what I talk about exactly what you're saying, you know, there, you know, but I hope it kind of emerges from the book as a whole, because I think, I think he's still a writer who's worth reading and engaging with and thinking about, because, you know, one, all the subjects he talked about are still interesting to us. And, and he would always make a really interesting case, for whatever it was, he thought, such that if he, you know, was on what I would regard as the right side, you know, there's no one you'd rather have on that side. And, and if he, and if he was, you know, exactly wrong, from my perspective, I made like, like, he's still vague. He's still the person that you'd most like to read being wrong about it, not just because not just because he's, uh, you know, the pro style makes the joy to read, but because it's, it's productively challenging, it's that, you know, that he has, you know, has this way of writing about that. And, and speaking that, such that, you know, even if, even if you kind of hate his conclusion, you know, like, you'll find yourself, that's really good point is to have to,

Stephen Bradford Long 12:45
exactly, exactly. And, you know, your book was such a huge breath of fresh air, because I think that we're all suffering from Twitter, brain rot, in which a lot of us can't feel like we can't be honest about our influences. And even if those influences are, especially if those influences are quote, unquote, problematic, and, and what I found so refreshing about your book, is how it, it doesn't try to round up to his best qualities, round him up to his best qualities, but it also doesn't try to round him down completely to his worst qualities. It's like, we can just let people be a mess. We can just let, does that make sense? And then it's, we can just let people be a mess and be let our influences be a mess. And I wish that we could live in a world where we could be honest about our influences and be like, Yeah, you know, I am great. You know, I, I am personally enormously influenced by Sam Harris. I feel like Sam Sam Harris, for me is like Christopher Hitchens for you. I every time I listen to that man's fucking podcast, I want to fucking vomit. Like, like, especially lately, because he's, he's had all of these awful tech bros on and then there's the whole there. And then there's the whole Charles Murray thing, which was just in my opinion, unforgivable, like, that was, in my opinion, utterly unforgivable. And at the same time, his teaching on meditation has completely changed my life, and improved my life for the better and it's like, what the fuck do I do with that? I, I can't lie. I can't lie and say that this man has not had any enormous influence on me. Because he has. And on the other hand, I'm not going to downplay in any way what I serve the very real harm. I think he I think more harmful than hitch honestly, I think, more destructive than hitch

Ben Burgis 14:59
Yeah, I mean, I know what you mean, even though even though his worst positions are probably worse than Well, I don't know, actually, I might take that back, but

Stephen Bradford Long 15:10
at least I think was pretty good when it came to race. Yeah, no, he was, you know, was

Ben Burgis 15:15
very good when it came to race actually, actually have an article that's coming out, ironically, in The Daily Beast, which, which I, like, you know, only ironic because like, I sort of liked it. I like kind of take a very little bit of a shot at the admit that at the end of the day, yes, that's right. Yeah. No, but about why I think that Hitchens, even, even late Hitchens, at his most politically flawed, would have hated that, like anti critical race theory was, and, you know, which is basically two reasons, right. One is that he had these like, really, you know, powerful defenses of free speech and why it's important to be able to openly discuss, you know, controversial ideas. But the other is that, like, you know, even post 911 he supported reparations for slavery, you know, like, he's,

Stephen Bradford Long 16:07
he's a co creative figure, you could never predict what was going to come like, and that's exciting. You have this line at the end of your book, where it's like, when was the last time you read the Daily Beast or slate, and you're surprised? Like, when was when was the last time you read something in the New York Times, and you were genuinely surprised by what you read. And it's like, Hitchens always surprised us. And I, that's also something that I kind of feel about Sam Harris as he continues to surprise me like when he turned in his IDW card. Last year, I was like, up didn't see that coming, or when he threw all of his IDW companions under the bus and came out against Brett Weinstein and, and pro vaccine. And just recently, like, last week, he said that the greatest threat to the to the United States and democracy is coming from the right, it's like, didn't see any of that coming.

Ben Burgis 17:02
It's kind of funny, just to connect the topics because you mentioned Harris's meditation stuff. And this would be much better if I remembered the name, but like, what I heard the day but wouldn't have meant anything to me, you know, so So I, I certainly don't write you know, but I remember I remember talking about this with, with Michael Brooks words. And, you know, since it's Michael was like, very, you know, Michael, like, you know, we'd go on silent meditation retreats, and stuff like that. And, and, and I, I sort of, I don't remember how it came up, but I mentioned something about people who would say, like, you know, like, like Harris's like meditation stay get a guided meditation stuff that had helped that, you know, he was like, Look, if it helps you, it helps you or whatever, that's fine. You know, like, he actually said that the that ironically, right, because because Michael Haig and Sam Harris. Oh, yeah. About, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 18:01
Sam Harris.

Ben Burgis 18:02
Yeah, exactly. You know, and but you know, but he just sort of threw off in casual conversation that, that he had, he had sad actually had a meditation teacher in Cabo. Which one? I don't know, this would have saved the day wouldn't have anything to me because this is not a world I know. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I'm

Stephen Bradford Long 18:19
interested to know which one it was. But yeah, we we can.

Ben Burgis 18:23
Maybe, yeah, maybe Alicia would tell I don't know. That's the like Coke, like it says his sister get a bite by No, because because she seems to she seems to share some of those interests. And yet, so she she might she might know, or his mom, maybe. But I mean, like if, if not them that. I don't know, though, because you know, because I just I just wouldn't know where to look.

Stephen Bradford Long 18:43
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I feel like we live in this culture. I wrote an article about this. I forget where I heard this idea where it was on a podcast and someone was saying, I think it was feminine chaos. With cat Rosenfield, where I think Kat was saying, you know, everyone seems to round down to people's worst qualities. And why don't we do the opposite? Why don't we just round up? Why don't we round up and see people through the lens of their best and I'm like, I'm not comfortable with that either. Like I'm not Yeah, no, you're showing up right? Like yeah, like I'm not okay with that either. And I don't know You know, I think cat Rosenfield is very smart, probably way smarter than me. And so this isn't like a dig at her. But I I think that Twitter and social media is combining with human nature to create this very toxic environment on the left and particular and on the right, I mean, it's everywhere. of either someone is a is an incredible hero or an absolute villain. And

Ben Burgis 19:54
so this is what I always say about how like, above all, Like, you know, like, usually, usually when I, you know, criticize the left more was, I'm doing it from the perspective of like, from the perspective of being strategically misguided, you know that it like it makes it harder to you know, you get no makes it harder to achieve your political goals if like you come off to most normal people like an overgrown hall monitor, but the but like also, even though it's you know even though like that's the point I usually emphasize about that, like, I also think you know what I've said this before to that, like, I think it's I think it's actually like that kind of moralistic attitude towards people is actually like, very morally flawed because it makes us, you know, less empathetic, because because, you know, if you just constantly have to, like, flattered everybody to the point where you can sort them into the clear, clearly good box, or the clearly bad box, you know, like, like, you're just, you're just missing so much.

Stephen Bradford Long 20:56
Well, it also just, it creates an environment where we, by necessity must be dishonest. Because everyone is influenced by someone who's problematic. It's like that that blog from Tumblr that was really influential, your fave is problematic, it's like, let's just admit that our faves are problematic. Let's just accept that all of our faves are problematic. And so people will come up to me, and, you know, almost like confess. Like, I actually really like JK Rowling. I disagree with I disagree with her, but I really like her and I don't want to let go of her or, or, you know what I'm saying? Or I really, are I really like Richard Dawkins, or I really, or I, you know, I really love or, you know, I'm subscribed to Jessie single substack. I really like his writing. Like, and I'm like, that's fine. Yeah, let's talk about our influences. And so that's why I loved your book so much is I see it as, as like very countercultural. And but the other thing is, whenever I see this on on Twitter, this attitude of everyone is either all good or all bad. And if you don't adhere to that idea to that attitude, then you're a traitor somehow, and you are engaging in both sides saying, and I just want to look at all these people and be like, Have you never read a fucking book in your life? Have you never read literature? Have you never read Dostoevsky or Tolstoy or Oscar Wilde or Shakespeare? Like, have you never engaged with literature in any meaningful way at all? Because human nature is messy as fuck. My favorite author is Oscar Wilde, and he did horrific things. He probably did some things that we today would consider pedophilia. Yeah, right. I mean, it's like human nature is gross. And engaging in literature, be it from someone from modern day or from the past is fundamentally is fundamentally fraught. And so whenever I see these purists on Twitter, I'm like, Have you ever read a fucking book in your life? And I know, that comes off as very, very.

Ben Burgis 23:21
The right, that is kind of the right question. I mean, it's particularly evasive, because Because so to see this play out is, you know, people are even talking about literature, right? Or, you know, I mean, like, rallied example or like, you know, I, I also, you know, I've, yeah, I mean, like, I, I mean, I, you know, whatever. I mean, I have lots of, you know, I think Norman Baylor's a pretty good, pretty good writer. Like that guy was like dangerously psychotic.

Stephen Bradford Long 23:54
There's so many dangerously psychotic, amazing writers who've influenced Yeah, sure, like Hunter S. Thompson was a huge influence Anyway, go on.

Ben Burgis 24:02
Yeah, no, totally right. Like, but like, but like when you're talking, you know, so it is just kind of funny. To me to see, especially people apply these attitudes when they're talking about literature, or even like, or even what they're talking about, like, like stand up comedy, right, which is a place I see a fair amount of it, which is, which is just funny, because these are both things that are, you know, at their best are all about exploring the human flaws, you know, and it's just that it's just they seem like domains that are particularly poorly suited to try to, like sort everybody into good people or bad people. Like if somebody is like, getting up on stage and like being funny for an hour about, like, everything that's wrong with them, which is you know, which is what a lot of good stand up is, you know, that it's like, you know, what, if you're gonna turn around and be like, Oh my god, I just found out that this person is a bad person, you know, well, well, I'm done with that. To give to you listen to that our like, you know, So, that's, and yeah, as you say, right a bit like, just the fact that, you know, that that literature good literature at least, like so, so much of it, you know, like tends to be like, I mean, that's like just just to like, boil it down to like an incredibly stupid bumper sticker. I mean, so much of it. Like the thesis is like, people are incredibly complicated, right? Like, yes, exactly.

Stephen Bradford Long 25:23
And, and there are two kinds of criticism that we can engage in. I think it's good to, you know, for example, look at JRR Tolkien and see how sexist he is in his writing, like, that's good. And it's also okay to do that while also enjoying his work. So that's one approach, right? And so we can do like that, that critical, queer feminist stuff, like we can do it. And we should and look at how, you know, representation and all that and, and sexism and homophobia and whatever and literature, like, that's all really important. And we can do that. But there's a, and we can enjoy it, even as we do it. Even as we do that criticism, and that's okay. But then there's this other type of criticism that I see. Which is, it has, okay, this this great piece of literature it had, let's just use Lord of the Rings. It's very sexist, or the Chronicles of Narnia, super sexist, let's burn it all down. Okay, that's like the other. That's the other version of it. And my response is often, why do you think that you are so much better? Right? Why why do these critics think that they are the paragon of moral virtue? And how, why are they so certain that the future of that future people won't look back on us on them and see horrible, horrible flaws. So like, maybe a bit of humility is necessary. It seems very narcissistic to me anyway.

Ben Burgis 27:09
It's, it's also just just weird that, like, there's the assumption that like, moral virtue slash good politics, is going to be like really, like, linked to like, every aspect of, of somebody's, like personality or output, like, in this way that like, we just sort of know from experience that it is like that, the that, like I do that? I don't know, like, I always see this, this thing that happens where like, I don't know, like, you know, Joss Whedon, you know, turns out to have been an asshole to people in the set of movies or whatever, you know, people say it's like, oh, you know, I could always tell you, first of all, no, you could I want to see those receipts, you know, that you could always tell, but like, secondly, like, what, why should we think that there's something here to tell, right? You know, that like that there's like, it's like, really? Like, do you think it's impossible, that like, somebody like, you know, somebody, like could be an asshole to people in his life, but also, you know, but, but also like, right, snappy dialogue that just not particularly reflects this fact about.

Stephen Bradford Long 28:22
It's so Elementary and, and I don't say all this to be mean, to my fellow comrades, like, I don't say any of this to to be mean, or disparaging it, it's just like, Come on, we can self reflect, and we can do better. And we can have a bit of nuance. And I see your book. And I bring all this up, because I think this is the deeper message of your book. And you go into the fascinating kind of intellectual journey of Christopher Hitchens, but it's like, beneath all of that, the book is a testament to you trying to engage sincerely with this very important figure who had profound flaws, and I love that it's so refreshing.

Ben Burgis 29:07
Thank you. Yeah, that is exactly right. Like I think, you know, it's kind of sad of the past, in some ways, you know, in some ways, this is like, the most self indulgent thing I've written because, like, the other the other books were like, there was sort of a very clear, like, kind of large scale, you know, there was like, a very clear sort of political intervention, right, you know, like, this is this is, you know, this is what I see people, you know, you know, in my view getting wrong about, you know, bad stuff, and, you know, and, you know, you know, here's why we should be you know, taking arguments more seriously, you know, here's why we should be you know, here's why we should call it you know, left moralism, whatever. And this one I mean, I'm, you know, cautiously optimistic that you know, that lots of other people find it interesting too, because, because it's a, because, you know, he's a figure that many people find fascinating, but like, in some ways, this is this this is just kind of for me, right? I mean, this is like, this is like, this is this is me, Like, you know, this is a guy who's always fascinated me and like I had, you know, towards the end of, of TMB, at MBs, you know, we were doing some some throwback clips where we'd watch, you know, we'd watch old footage of, of Hitchens. And you know, and, you know, kind of got me thinking about him again, and, and this is just kind of maybe, like, you know, like, taking the opportunity to, like, work through some of this stuff. And, you know, and hopefully, that's, that's interesting to lots of other people too, of course, right. You know, but I mean, like, like, like, in some ways, it's a much more, you know, it's a much more personal book than the other ones.

Stephen Bradford Long 30:36
Yeah, it definitely feels like a passion project. So this might be two, this might be an impossible question to answer. And you kind of allude to this at the end of your book, we are like we have, there's no telling what Hitchens would have done if he had beat us cancer. But what do you think, what do you think? Where would he be right now? Like, what would he have to say about our current world?

Ben Burgis 31:02
Yeah, yeah, that's really tough. I think that there, there's a range of things that I like, there's a range that I could imagine. And there's definitely stuff that falls outside of the range. So I'll just say, I mean, I gave one small example earlier of like, a particular issue where I'm fairly confident about, you know, where he would have landed, but I think I think that the, the best case scenario would be that, you know, Occupy Wall Street, like was kind of happening, you know, while he was, you know, he'd already had his cancer diagnosis. And, you know, and he was, you know, and he was kind of barely commented on it a little bit, but like, you know, but like he had, you know, but he was, you know, he was he was already starting to like withdraw from everything a little bit. And, of course, the first Bernie campaign started, you know, four years after he died. So, I, you know, I think that the best case scenario would be all of this, like, rekindles some of the old commitments, and I think if that had happened, I think, a realistic best case scenario, it still would have been, I think, it still would have been a pretty complicated relationship with left because for one thing, I think that it would have been, just psychologically, you know, like, he kind of burned somebody bridges with with his post 911 foreign policy positions, I think it would have been really hard to, like, ever, like, sort of admit to himself or anyone else, that he'd been wrong about all of that. So, so I think that if he had, for example, supported Bernie Sanders and in 2016, which is not out of the question, and he I think he might have, if nothing else, you know, above all other human beings on the planet, right, you know, like, you know, he hated Henry Kissinger like more than anyone and and Henry Kissinger became an issue with that campaign, you know, that Hillary Clinton said she was you know, that you know, Kissinger was you know, was was the Sunnah was a trusted friend and advisor you know, Bernie did the whole year I do a horrible Bernie impression, so I'm not going to try Bernie did I feel proud to say, you know, another

Stephen Bradford Long 33:10
reason we need another reason we need Michael Brooks.

Ben Burgis 33:13
I know. He did. He did. So there's the Yeah, I don't even remember like there's there's some some idiot must have like said on Twitter or something that like something about are no no, no, it wasn't it wasn't that it was that it was like I think it was like a libertarian that Sam cedar debated said something about Bernie being evil. And and like with a guy hung up, Michael just like did this like five minute riff of like, of like, speaking as the evil birdie character? Yes, birdies, accented pitch speech patterns, you know, just say evil things, you know, but no, so good. Yeah, we'll say last. So, so Yeah, Michael Michael died July 2020. And then in August 2021, you know, his, his family held a, like a kind of, like, you know, for people who because of COVID hadn't been able to, you know, to go to the original, you know, service. You know, they held what was essentially, you know, like a sort of urine change later, like, what would have been, you know, yeah, what would have been 38th birthday. And last year, he, they had, you know, a said like, essentially a sort of delayed memorial service and then in, in a truly, like, cosmically bizarre bit of time in his father actually died like a couple days before the service. And so it ended up being a joint thing, right. So people, some people were coming up and talking, you know, there'll be people to come up and talk about Michael and then there'll be people to come up and talk I'm Glenn Brooks and you know, sort of go back and forth. And which, you know, initially I felt, you know, incredibly awkward about right, because because I never knew his father, right, this like, you know, this is, you know, essentially going to a funeral for a stranger. But I'm glad I did because I because I did feel like I got some insight. You know, it's a Michael because a couple of people talked about us, apparently, like Glenn Brooks throughout his entire life was just like, constantly doing impressions of everyone who knew it.

Stephen Bradford Long 35:32
Yes, like father like, son.

Ben Burgis 35:35
So, so yeah, so I think that when I think that when Henry Kissinger became an issue, you know, the between Bernie and Hillary, I think that might have sparked some, you know, something, I think, in general, the fact that like, you know, there's even like an interview for 2005. I think we're, we're Hitchens says, and he's a little bit all over the place about this, right. Yeah. He says different things in different places. I think he wasn't entirely I think he was still probably sorted out some of his his feelings about this. You know, when he died, it was definitely a work in progress. But he does the interview from 2005, where Hitchin says that, like he would still be a socialist, if you still thought that was like, off the table, you know, historic Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 36:17
I was going to bring that up. Yeah.

Ben Burgis 36:19
Yeah. So I think I think it's, you know, I don't think it's out of the question that he that, you know, the sort of revival of some kind of socialist left, you know, even even in this kind of soft social democratic form, would have sort of awakened that side of his politics. Although it's complicated, because, especially, given the foreign policy stuff, I have a very hard time imagining and saying anything nice about Jeremy Corbyn, but, but I think it's possible, that he that he might have supported Bernie, I don't think that's out of the question. But I think if you did, I think between the gulf that the foreign policy positions created between him and the left. And add also, you know, so in other words, given the stuff he was wrong about it, also, frankly, given some of the stuff that he was right about? The you know, I think that I think that it would have been I think that even if he had sort of come back around to somewhat more robustly leftist position in you know, in the last several years, I think it would be, you know, I think it'd be fraught, right. I think, I think it's still be like, you'd be like, Yeah, I support these people, but like, you know, he'd also be taking shots at them, you know, in various ways. So I think that's like the best case scenario. I think, the worst case scenario, and I don't like to say this, but if it just be honest about it, I think the worst case scenario is that he he would have become, you know, like, a kind of cringy resistance live in the Trump years like that, that that is something that could imagine.

Stephen Bradford Long 38:00
I could I could see him becoming an an anti woke Crusader. As well, like I would, you know, you know him better than I do. But like, that is what, especially given the people that he surrounded himself with, towards the end, I could see himself kind of going the route of James Lindsay, maybe not that crazy, but, but a tweak to toe point

Ben Burgis 38:25
to point I think that the like, like, here are some possibilities that I really can't imagine. Right, like, something that I absolutely can't imagine, like, like, I think one of those things I feel confident with just categorically rule it out, is that he ever would have had a like, truck with like, Trump support right like that. They have a that, like he, I think I think I think he would have just elegantly hated that. Right? And there are better and worse versions of how that would have come out. Right, you know, but he definitely like, not only because the only two comments that I could find from him about Donald Trump were in, in 2000, when when Trump was, you know, sort of a candidate or flirty with being a candidate for the Reform Party nomination, which which ultimately led to pat buchanan just a bizarre thing to think about that, you know, Trump went from that to eventually the Republican nominee and the president but in a column in the nation about that Hitchens refers to Trump as a nutball, narcissistic tycoon, and, and then there's appointments, there's like a C span appearance where somebody asked him where Brian lamb so about Trump, and you know, and he's, and he says that the, as far as he can tell, the only impressive thing about Donald Trump is they found a way to cover 90% of his skull with 10% of his hair. So that's, uh, you know, so like, obviously, there's a strong personal dislike, but I don't even think that's the big thing. I think the big thing is, is that he, I think that kind of, you know, right wing, you know, air quotes populism. I think I think He He hated more than he hated anything, you know, I mean, I like the fact that, you know, he was like going, you know that Trump was like, go back and like using like the Lindbergh slogan, and you know, America first and, and just how openly racist, you know that that like initial campaign was in 2016, which we kind of actually I think for forget a little bit of retrospect, like just how, like, just how extreme that first campaign for president was that like he, you know, Trump said many times that, you know, he was gonna ban every single Muslim in the world from from from the United States. Until we figure out what's going on there. A reporter asked him once, whether maybe Muslims should be forced to wear special clothing and to identify the this might be a good idea, you know, or like, anything like that people said to him, like, Oh, should there be like a registry? It's like, yeah, maybe, you know, all of the, like, Mexicans are rapists stuff. You know, like, I think that, as you kind of alluded to earlier, I mean, he was, you know, I mean, he said many times, you know, including lat you know, the last decade, you know, that, that he thought like the the sort of two most dangerous things were religion and racism, you know, so

Stephen Bradford Long 41:08
yeah, exactly. Yeah, go on.

Ben Burgis 41:11
Yeah, yeah. So he definitely, he most definitely would not have become a Trump supporter. So if you think that there's a version of him that becomes like, IDW, which I kind of don't, but if you do, he certainly would have, you know, he certainly would have at least followed his friend Sam out, you know, at the same time for the same reason.

Stephen Bradford Long 41:30
Yeah, I agree with that. And he Yeah, I mean, I think that he would have been really, really critical. I see your point about him becoming like a dreary resistance Democrat, I definitely see that I could also see him, just like eviscerating the current climate of the left.

Ben Burgis 41:58
I think he would do that. Like I think I think actually, no matter which one of these things happened.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:02
That was one thing that he absolutely would have done. You know, he's, he's one of those writers who I really miss and I really wish that he was still around because same with like Terry Pratchett. Like, I wish I could see what Terry Pratchett would have done with the Trump era. Like I, I really, really wish I could have seen what Terry Pratchett would have done with the Trump era. And I feel the same way about Hitchens, as interested.

Ben Burgis 42:31
Yeah.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:32
So so what you have this really interesting line in your book about how, in a lot of spaces that you move in the the atheism versus theism debate that Christopher Hitchens engaged in? Seem, a lot of people dismiss it as boring. But you still find it really interesting. Share your thoughts on that. What is so so first of all, why do you think because I've seen that too, and I, I think, maybe I'm misremembering, but I think Michael Brooks said something along those lines, too, that, that, you know, there was something you know, is like that, that debate is boring, that debate, you know, atheism versus theism, like we've moved on from that. It's, it's dull. But you say in your book, that it's still very interesting to you talk, talk to them about that.

Ben Burgis 43:26
Yeah, definitely. And, and this is also, I think, one of the reasons that I was interested in writing about Hitchens, probably, because it gives me a little bit of excuse to talk and think about this in a way that I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have otherwise but like, like, you know, part of the reason pitches is interesting to me is because of this and, and, you know, it's part of what I've tried to engage with in the book in some ways. You know, they're, they're, like aspects of, of the pitches, do atheists years that I'm, like, very critical of and like, you know, I'll face like analysis religion, you know, because basically, I think he's not been good enough materialist anymore, but, but I think, and, and, you know, and I think there is stuff that Michael, you know, talks about and against the web about not sort of essentialism, you know, like sort of vast cultural traditions that that I think I you know, that I think doubles is like a good criticism of like some of the new atheist stuff but the sort of core humanistic critique of you know, I think probably you know, to be honest mostly Christianity you know, that that and to a lesser extent like the Christianity adjacent religions, you know, like Judaism Islam, you know that cuz, you know, when, like, when Hitchens would like, criticize, you know, Eastern religion It always felt like a little bit of a hasty afterthought, you know, like that, that that that was out, that's clearly not where he lived on this topic, you know, like, it's not really what he what he spent his time thinking about. But But I think that I think there's an aspect of that kind of humanistic critique of at least very standard claims and those religions, right, I mean, I understand that, like, there are, you know, like, there's a huge gulf between, like, the views of like, the sort of most of least Orthodox, you know, Christians, smaller Orthodox, and I'm not, you know, I'm not interested in like, you know, I mean, I think it's a little look, I'm an atheist, I'm not, I'm a really bad position to say, who counts as a real Christian, you know, so, like, that'd be a weird game for me to play, you know, so it's like, I don't think it applies to, to all of them. But, but I think there are like some, like very deep, very standard, very historically important. Christian and I guess let's just say Abrahamic, you know, religious claims, that Hitchens has this kind of humanistic moral critique of I find very compelling. And, and I also think, that I also, yeah, this sort of core atheism versus theism debate, and a lot of this sort of way that he was engaged in it, especially, you know, especially with sort of attention to this issue of, of whether morality, you know, is something that has to come from, from a God that, that he was engaged with, I find extremely interesting. And, you know, and also, I'm a big philosophy nerd. So I mean, I find just like arguing about whether or not God exists, you know, extremely interesting. But like, I guess what I say at that part of the book, is that, when people say this, you know, to be, you know, like, I guess I'm never sure how seriously to take that, because it like, I think in Michaels case, maybe a part of it was that you did have these, you know, very deep interests, and, you know, Buddhism and, you know, and related traditions, and so, he might have felt like his spiritual interests were sort of at a right angle to like most of what was being argued about at that debate. And that's fair enough, but like, I think that you know, but I think they'll I don't know, I guess, I think, my general reaction to hearing, oh, I just find all that stuff boring now, and I, you know, I don't really care about that, you know, is that it just seems really implausible to be at a human level. Because, I mean, especially, I mean, look, you can tell what I when I wrote the book, I mean, this is, I had, you know, I mean, like, I wrote it at a time when I had, you know, like, we've gone through, you know, we've gone through, you know, I mean, obviously COVID has not done, but, you know, we've gone through the worst of COVID I've gone through Michael died, and I've, you know, gone through, you know, other tragedies we don't need to get into but the so maybe this is just that I spend too much time thinking about death now, but like, I think, just on a really basic human level, it's like, I don't know, I mean, like, like, does do, you know, do people stop existing? You know, when they die? I mean, that that that seems like something I have a hard time imagining people, anybody being completely emotionally disengaged for that issue. I just find it boring, right? Like, yeah,

48:33
I 100% agree with you. It's almost like this. I don't, I don't mean to call anyone insincere. But it seems almost like the socialist hipster. aloofness, you don't want to, like like philosophic, philosophical aloofness? No. And you're exactly right. And even just, you know, reflecting on Hitchens, death and how I haven't read his book on mortality, but even like that, the stuff that I was seeing him discuss, and the conversation surrounding him as he was dying, you know, everything from him dwelling on the fact that he believes that he would stop existing, that his consciousness would end and and to, you know, him responding to Christians praying for His salvation on his deathbed with get fucked, basically, you know, just that whole spectrum of engagement with his own mortality is fascinating because it's core to what it means to be human. We're all going to die. And you're absolutely right about COVID as well like my my, one of my cousin's just died this past week from COVID. And I think think that all of Hitchens, discussions about death and dying and mortality and the supernatural and God are very fucking irrelevant?

Ben Burgis 50:13
Yeah, no, like, you think so? Right. I mean, like, what, like, who doesn't? You know? I mean, who who doesn't think about, you know, I mean, I don't know, I'm, like, it's funny to like, Okay, so there's a surprisingly little for for just how big a figure he was, right? Surprisingly, you know, little, you know, it's been it's been written about him since since his death, I mean that, you know, obviously, you know, like, when he died, and shortly after there were like, you know, you know, five zillion, you know, like, you know, articles about it, right. But as far as like books, you know, surprisingly little has been written so, so I so I did feel compelled to read almost all of it, you know, to before, you know, before I wrote this, almost all of it because there was like one like, sort of like fundamentalist looking tract that like had a very self published, like, look to it, and I just like, Okay, I can't do this. Oh, is

51:09
that is that the, the Christopher Hitchens? The faith of Christopher Hitchens? That would I did read? Oh, that's right. Yeah.

Ben Burgis 51:19
Yeah. The, the one the what I didn't was like, he was like, you know, God is Great, you know, a systematic response. You know, I can't, I can't do it.

Stephen Bradford Long 51:31
Actually a waste of time.

Ben Burgis 51:34
That's good. But other than that, right, you know, like, like, I read, like, what little else is, is out there as far as books goes, and one of those was the one that you just referred to the faith of Christopher Hitchens, the restless soul of the world's most notorious atheists, by Larry Taunton. And in in that book, you know, I talked about it quite a bit, you know, he, you know, Taunton basically claims that Hitchens was like, teetering on the edge of conversion, you know, in his like, last, you know, months or whatever. And a lot of people, like a sort of pretty common response is like, oh, Taunton was just like making up conversations. And they say the books like no, I really don't think he was, I think he was just kind of interpreted that idiotic way. Right. Like he had like, everything, everything he reports hitch and say the book is stuff that I can totally imagine him said. And in fact, so it's like stuff he said in like, public forums. Right, you know, so it's just the Taunton was, like reading it weirdly. And, like, probably the best piece of evidence of that book is like they're talking about the afterlife. And and Hitchens says, Well, you know, the idea is not without its appeal to a dying man. And it's like, Yeah, no shit, right. I mean, like, I, I'm, you know, I'm 41. And I have no major medical issues, and it's not without its appeal to me.

Stephen Bradford Long 53:04
And, you know, I'm it was, so it was so humiliating, where, you know, I was, I did not take care of myself in my teens and 20s. And so it's like, all within a period of a month in my 30s, I suddenly needed glasses, suddenly, like, had debilitating back pain. And then my cholesterol was like, suddenly through the roof, my doctor was like, if you don't get this under control, you'll have a heart attack at 40, like, all at once, all within the period of a month. So I find myself thinking about death on a regular basis now, or just because I feel like it's that time of my life where you know, I'm in my 30s Now, I'm suddenly more aware that I am very mortal. And I can't drink you know, lots and lots and lots of vodka and be Okay, the next morning, like, I know, it's so annoying. It's like, if I stay up a minute past midnight, I suddenly want to die for the next two days, like, Oh, I'm an adult. Now. This body is not what it used to be, and I'm going to die someday. And how do I deal with that?

Ben Burgis 54:21
Yeah, no, I hate that. I really. Look. I mean, I still drink probably, you know, more than didn't like, you know, most people but like a tiny fraction.

Stephen Bradford Long 54:36
Yeah, exactly. A fraction of what I used to. Yeah, no, I've just stopped drinking altogether. Because whenever I

Ben Burgis 54:45
hit that, because Because Because Because I remember that, right. Like, what is early 30s I could, I could like, you know, I could drink like a maniac. Oh, yeah. And then like, wake up the next day and I'd be like, maybe feel a little bad for a while. Don't worry, I can be fine. I have some coffee and like kiddo, like, I go about my business and like, I'd be fine. Yeah. Like, it's like now if I if I try to, like, if I try to do the same now it's like, oh, no, I'm just gonna feel, I'm just gonna, like feel like half dead, you know, fear for like, the next day and it's like, I don't I don't like this at all.

Stephen Bradford Long 55:16
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so it's that reality of confronting mortality that I think Hitchens does really, really, really well. And it's not boring to me. So anyway, well, I think that's a great note to end on. And everyone should obviously read your book, I will put a link in the show notes. It is published by zero books, and it is fantastic. It's very slim. You everyone could but but that does not. That doesn't mean that it is a, you know, a lightweight, it is really interesting and really challenging and very in depth into his work. And so obviously, everyone should read your book, but if you were to recommend one book by Christopher Hitchens, to anyone who has never read him before, what would you suggest?

Ben Burgis 56:06
Ooh. That is tricky.

Stephen Bradford Long 56:12
So it can be more than one.

Ben Burgis 56:15
Okay, okay. Well, I think if I mean, it depends a little bit on who was recommended to right cuz, cuz if I was if I was, like, if I was recommended a book by Hitchens to somebody who, who like, you know, somebody who like, you know, I don't know, like, read buy stuff, a jacket, or whatever. And that was like, that was the sort of point of connection or like, was like a T MBs. Fan. Probably the one I recommend is his book about Clinton, no one left a lie to which, which, which is, like, I think, you know, one of the, you know, one of the best anti Clinton books, and it's, it's, I mean, it's funny, right, because I see people claiming sometimes that, you know, Hitchens was, you know, never really that interested in domestic policy. And I sort of know what they mean by that, and like, why they're saying it, but like, also, in that book, I mean, he is just savage about, like, how bad welfare reform was, and, you know, the, you know, the death penalty and a lot of things like that, in that in that book. So I mean, sort of hit him as like, you know, political polemicist. Hitchens? That is, you know, that is, that's, like, kind of the, you know, like, he's definitely at his peak there. It I don't know, I mean, if you have other interests, you know, or you don't necessarily want this the straight political stuff. I mean, I think, I think, I think actually, like, I certainly have my criticisms of the book, but like, I think God is not great is a great read. The that's that that is definitely, you know, I mean, the more philosophical side of it, I think that's definitely a book that's worth reading. And, and I guess, I guess the other one, this is like a side of him that I didn't really explore much in the, in the book, partially because I'm just not in a, you know, I'm just not a good position to because, like, I, you know, like, again, it's, it's like, the, it's like the drink kid, you know, it's like I, maybe I, you know, maybe like I read more, you know, novels than, you know, like the average American or whatever, but like, I'm like, essentially illiterate compared to Christopher Hitchens. So, I so, so I just nod the position to like to like write about his sort of Hitchens is a literary critic, which was, like, almost his other career. And, and, but I think he has a book called unacknowledged legislators, which is, you know, the title comes from a quote from Shelley about, you know, poets baby unacknowledged legislators, the world. And it's just a collection of, of, of essays. You know, it's a collection of, of, of essays about literature, right. So like, oftentimes, some of them will be, you know, they're like big chunks to some of his other essay collections that are devoted to this, but like, that one's entirely it. So like, you'll get like his, you know, the Hitchens essay about Arthur Conan Doyle, or you know, like the Hitchens essay about grim green or whatever, and it's, and so if you're so yeah, depending on depending on what someone is most interested in, it would be one or the other of those three books.

Stephen Bradford Long 59:29
Perfect. Well, this has been great. And I'm glad to see you again. This has been a great conversation. That's been good. All right. Well, that is it for this show. The theme song is wild by eleventy. Seven. You can find it on Apple Music, or Spotify or wherever you listen to music. The show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long, and it is a production of rock candy recordings, as always Hail Satan, and thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STReconciliation of Opposites98dag

2022-10-11T08:06:11Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STReconciliation_of_Opposites98dag
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, tst, process, satanists, satanism, satanic temple, baphomet, scientology, tucker carlson, church, swastika, feel, thought, satan, called, religious, christianity, robert de, question, dinosaur
SPEAKERS
Doug Misicko, Stephen Bradford Long

Stephen Bradford Long 00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast this is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com All right, well, I am here once again with Lucian grieves, the co founder and spokesperson of the Satanic Temple. But before we get to that, I have to thank my patrons. My patrons are my personal lords and saviors and they keep me from doing unspeakably disgusting things on the streets to fund my crippling content creation addiction. So for this week, I have to thank cane Nevermore. Scott de naam. Van winter. And Kelly, thank you so much. I truly could not do this without you. And for listeners who want to join their number, just go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long for $1 A month or $5 a month. You get extra content every single week. All right, Lucien, welcome back.

Doug Misicko 01:16
Great to be on.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:17
So before we get into it, we just had our first Satan con in Arizona. I was not there. I will try to be there at the next one. But how was it? How did it go? By all

Doug Misicko 01:29
accounts? It went very well. And I know there's more coverage coming still there were people putting together fuller mini documentary style type reports from it. I mean, outside of the TST camp, but I have Oh, interesting, you know, high hopes that they'll make a quality product one can hope. Next year. Yeah. Next year. I assume we'll have less concern regarding COVID. And it'll be our 10 year anniversary. So that should be lit.

Stephen Bradford Long 02:05
Are you trying to fit in with the kids? Yeah. Because the kids would say, Do the kids even say lit anymore? I feel like that was very three years ago, or four years ago. I don't I don't.

Doug Misicko 02:15
I'm catching up with the Catholic Church. Pardon Galileo. I'm doing pretty good.

Stephen Bradford Long 02:21
Absolutely. Fair enough. Yeah. So as usual, whenever you come on, I put out some feelers on Twitter and my Discord to see what people might want us to talk about. And we did get a question that I thought was really really interesting. Which is Oh, hold on where the fuck did it

Doug Misicko 02:40
go? But you only got one question. No, I got one that you thought was interesting.

Stephen Bradford Long 02:45
Precisely. So no, I get way too many questions whenever you come on, and it's always stupid shit. So hold on. Let me let me find one. There's, there have been some really, it's always how has Satan mingle made an impact in his life? How does Satan mingle? Yes. made an impact on your life. Let's see here. Why did the guy with the dinosaur claw rip that lady's tid off? Oh,

Doug Misicko 03:14
I know what that's about.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:16
Let's see. Ask him if he's wearing pants. Are you wearing pants solution?

Doug Misicko 03:21
You don't donate donate are wearing me.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:23
Okay, good. What's your favorite type of cookie?

Doug Misicko 03:27
Now let's get back to the dinosaur ripping. Okay, let's talk about let's talk about the dinosaur. It's a reference to last night's movie nights massacre in dinosaur Valley. And dinosaur only ripped open Halford tip so that another bare breasted woman could suck the wound. I mean, of course, why not? It was it's a good movie. It sounds like it wasn't any. There wasn't actually any dinosaurs to be seen either. Kind of going back and forth it couldn't decide whether it wanted to be this white knuckled tents escaped from Amazonian cannibal movie, or if it just wanted to be softcore porn, so it kind of did the did both of them run from cannibals, and then they would just hit the ground and start having making out with boobs.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:18
Have you heard of or watched the movie a nymphomaniac and dinosaur? Hell?

Doug Misicko 04:23
No, it sounds like it sounds it sounds

Stephen Bradford Long 04:26
right up your alley for people who are who are completely lost. You have a regular movie night every Wednesday night and it's a lot of fun. I have popped in there every now and then.

Doug Misicko 04:39
Yeah, true triple feature every time and I gotta say, after a couple of solid years of doing it, we're still not. I still feel like I haven't scratched the surface of the archive of bad movies.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:52
Absolutely. It's endless. Alright, so now that we've gotten through some of the stupid questions Not that they're stupid. I mean, I'm glad that people love you enough to just regale my Twitter feed with lots of questions. So yeah, giving those questions enough credit, fair. But there is one question that I thought that we could spend some time on, which is from ilium shadows. And they say I was curious to find out if at all, his interest and research into the process church influenced how he approached the development of tst. If there was anything he took inspiration from after watching the process doc on tst. TV, I was curious. So perhaps before we answer that question, you could say some about what the process church or the final judgment was?

Doug Misicko 05:45
Well, my interest in the process really came from my earlier interest in the Satanic Panic and trying to figure out why people believe these crazy things. And if you started exploring the notions that were put forward, related to the Satanic Panic, that there were these cults operating in silence all throughout society and trying to undermine everything that we hold dear to our Christian morals in the United States, and beyond. The process was kind of isolated as this satanic cult that was responsible for it all by some of the conspiracy theorists, and you can see that narrative come up again, in the sons of Sam documentary came out recently on Netflix, you know, to be fair, I should mention, I gave some shit publicly to the director of that documentary, who did reach out to me and say that I got the wrong message from the documentary that the documentary wasn't, I

Stephen Bradford Long 06:53
don't know how you got the wrong message, because that's also the message that I got.

Doug Misicko 06:57
Right, right. But I, I think it was very inept at doing anything that would have attempted to not to give that message. But I don't doubt that the director, I honestly feel like he was just kind of naive as to how the audience would receive it, and thought that it was good enough to put the idea out there and people would, you know, have have a sense that, that this was the story of a conspiracy theorist going too far down a rabbit hole, or whatever. And the

Stephen Bradford Long 07:30
end, the idea that we're discussing is that the process church or the final judgment, which was this new religious movement in the 60s, had a hand in, like the Son of Sam murderers. I've also seen them linked to the Manson murders, I've seen them linked to all kinds of terrible things that happened during that period of time. And so all of it was, was not true. They they were wrongly linked, and well, they

Doug Misicko 08:07
Stetic and that really helped create this, this pattern of illusion around them that they were responsible for these, these mythic crimes that we could never find any evidence for. But it could, they could at least point to a cult in the process very much was a cult. And the idea that they did all kinds of horrific things in that they were Satanists sin, even calling them Satanists is kind of an abuse of the term because they certainly wouldn't have considered themselves to be Satanists, though. They did venerate Christ and Satan as opposing opposites. And they have this idea of the reconciliation of the opposites that transcended its component parts kind of thing. And you might see shades of that already in descriptions of the Baphomet monument when we started putting that together. And as for the question of how the see the process church, inspired the Satanic Temple, I would say earlier on in, it inspired the Satanic Temple in similar ways that groups like the Church of Satan inspired the Satanic Temple, which is that we could see what we felt they had done wrong, and did not want to repeat those things. And I mean, that's not even to, to throw shade, as the kids might say, at the the process or the Church of Satan, but the the process, like I said, was very much a cult. And when I say that, I mean I know that pejorative term is thrown at Any religious group that's ever started, including us without thoughts, just because it sounds good. And it sounds like the proper criticism to put towards a religious organization that you don't like. But the process inner circle very much did dictate the minutia of everybody's lives within it, you know, in, they even paired people up sexually and had these bizarre kinds of episodes where they would, you know, do do these things that were they're very, like very much micromanaging each other's lives and living very much in a communal setting, amongst one another. But like I said, their belief system was far more complicated than this idea that they were merely Satanists, and that they are, not to say merely Satanists, but, but they, they had a more complex kind of theology with many, many deities, they had Christ Satan, Lucifer and Jehovah. And that the core idea was this idea of transcending these conflicts and the reconciliation of opposites. But they kind of changed shape over time, they changed ideas over time, they never really kind of settled on one thing, the organizational structure of the process changed throughout time in before they kind of fell apart. They were a bit of an embarrassment, sending cult members out onto the street to beg for donations and try to sell magazines and things like that. Definitely not something we want to emulate after they disbanded. The nobody really wanted to own up to having ownership of the process. So the conspiracy theorists were free to say what they will, you know, the Satanic Temple is an existing organization right now, I think if we if we disbanded, people would say, you know, so many more horrific things about us for feeling that nobody would, nobody would try to correct them, at least not in the courts, you know, and that's kind of what happened to the process, it was fair game to say whatever you wanted about any of them, because I think it's kind of fair to say that a lot of them somewhat went into hiding over it, because there was such a panic at the time about the idea of satanic cults and things like that. So many of them just wanted to be left alone. They were blamed for the Manson murders by conspiracy theorists as well. And this came about because members of the process did visit Charles Manson in prison. And despite what the conspiracy theorists say, they tried to make it sound like they visited Manson that the essence of the conversation is unknown, or that they were otherwise giving him instruction or that they had prior affiliation with him. There's no evidence of that. The process very much openly went there to interview him for a magazine they were doing. And if you can do that at the time, why wouldn't you write I mean, worse was, yeah, this was very much dominant in the news. And they felt that there was a perspective to get straight from the horse's mouth. So when you see these conspiracy theorists acting like, this is something they try to conceal. It's not like that at all the process themselves intentionally published this, this fact and I have copies of their old magazines, I have the little article that they wrote up after visiting Charles Manson and things like that. So their intention for B, their intentions for being there aren't unknown. So that being you know, put forward is like this missing link to prove the connection between the process and Charles Manson is fairly ludicrous, and there's no evidence that they were ever involved in any of these crimes that anybody say that they're involved in, but still nobody really wanted to talk talk about it. So at some point, I started tracking down former members of the process church to try to get an idea of their actual history because very little had been written about who they really were and miles of reams of text had been written, elaborating these bizarre conspiracy theories and part of that was the processes own fault they didn't do much to archive their information in fact when they disbanded they were supposed to burn their their books they had for their priests and things like that. We have a copy of one though at the at our headquarters in Salem did

Stephen Bradford Long 14:37
so they had so they had a clergy they had a priesthood.

Doug Misicko 14:41
Oh yeah, they had a pretty good and they had they had chapters throughout the United States and and beyond. They originated from United Kingdom in London, and they started as a schism group from the Church of Scientology. The Robert degree I'm standing his wife, Marianne Moore. They met as auditors within the Church of Scientology. And ironically, it was the hierarchical structure, oppressive hierarchical structure of the Church of Scientology that they wanted to leave to do something that they felt liberated their membership more to act according to their own will. And I say ironically, because they became a call that did micromanage other people's other people's lives. So they started out as this kind of psychotherapy called, as the sociologist William Bainbridge called them

Stephen Bradford Long 15:36
didn't they call themselves a deviant psychotherapy Colt.

Doug Misicko 15:40
They didn't call themselves that. Bainbridge. Okay. William Bainbridge was a was a sociologist to became a member of the process, church to write about them. And he ended up being a roommate to Robert De grimston, for a time after, after he's he split with Marianne Moore, and in the process started to kind of fall apart. But he, he wrote a book called Satan's power is something like a history of a deviant psychotherapy called,

Stephen Bradford Long 16:12
oh, that's where that comes from. Okay, yeah. But

Doug Misicko 16:15
in order to try to maintain that liberation, they did it in the psychotherapeutic context where they had, they were still using E meters in the way that Scientology does. And Scientology, they do these auditing sessions, where they have what are essentially these lie detectors where they have the metal cans that that measure,

Stephen Bradford Long 16:38
you know, the electro magnetic pulses, or where are your psycho

Doug Misicko 16:43
physiological response, surprisingly, but how psychophysiological that is unclear when you actually play around with a e meter.

Stephen Bradford Long 16:52
Because the dial just floats around like the the dial will just drift.

16:57
We have an e reader in our headquarters, and I played with it. And I thought, there's no way that you can actually get a reading on somebody's state of mind from this because I've noticed that if you squeeze it a little harder, the needle jumps and you can it doesn't take much you know, there

Stephen Bradford Long 17:15
are there are ex Scientologists who still swear by it. I mean, there there are Scientologists who have completely disavowed Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, they say Scientology as a destructive cold, but they're like, but auditing is legit, and they still live for it. And

Doug Misicko 17:33
I know, I still hold out some thought that maybe, you know, maybe I could find a way to use it better to Yeah, I gotta say, I'm not there. I played around with it, and I can't get a fucking thing where if anything out of it, and it seems more like you're just, you know, I, I lean towards the idea that it's just a superfluous tool to make it look like your psychotherapy session is going somewhere that it's not the setting has more value, or that it has more empirical evidence to support, you know that, that the reaction is going one way or another than is actually actually true. It could be you know, I mean, I also feel like it could be similar to the pendulum trick, you know, where you have, yes, on the top and a no on the bottom, and you hold the pendulum and whether it swings up and down. We're on the Yes axis or across on the no axis, you have your answer. And of course, that's just your own.

Stephen Bradford Long 18:39
I have my pendulum here somewhere, it's fun to play with it. It's the ideomotor effect where you will, your your body will subconsciously move it to to give you an answer that you think is there or whatever. And the same is true of of Legion boards and so on. Yeah, it's fascinating.

Doug Misicko 19:03
Yeah, it's exactly that. And I feel like, I feel it's quite possible that that's what the E meter is to like those, those almost imperceptible squeezes you do and things like that are just you betraying what you think the response should be at the E meter. So I mean, in that way, it could kind of work but in a way, it's not really supposed to. Yeah, exactly, in a roundabout way. Anyways, enough about the E meters. In any case, they started out doing that, but they did it a lot differently than the Church of Scientology would do it. They broke down those barriers of distinction between auditor and client or whatever the Church of Scientology would call the person being audited, the auditor and audited and they would just do with these kinds of back and forth communications and they would follow, you know, the needle the E meter to figure out where they needed to go deeper into an explorer. in greater detail, and in that way, they kind of became more uprooted from reality even maybe then Church of Scientology and went off into different, different directions and created this whole kind of collective narrative that they were, they were building in the grimston was clearly a very brilliant man, and did a lot of writing that I think has some merit. But when you investigate the process more deeply, you find out that he wasn't really that important to the inner circle of the process church or the final judgment, at least according to it was his wife. Right? Yeah, it was. She was definitely the the cult mastermind. She was the one who would pair people up sexually. She was the one who was really dictating people's lives to them. And by the accounts, I've heard from people who are in the process, Robert De grimston, was more of a bummer to them kind of a nerd who just did a lot of writing and whether they took his writings terribly seriously or not, who knows. But in any case, I was doing this level of investigation, I started talking to Timothy Wiley, who was, you know, part of the process, inner circle work with Robert De grimston, Maryam went, went to architecture school with Robert De grimston really had some insights as to how things ran on the inside. That said, his he wasn't necessarily the best witness to his own life. You know, he was also part of that whole kind of Timothy Leary, psychedelics, everyday crowd and very much had a supernatural perspective upon the world and did believe I think in reptilians, and David Icke type stuff and things like that Hellboy? Yeah. But he was, he was a nice guy, I visited him in his house in, in New Mexico. And it was in investigating the process Church of the final judgment that I met William Morrison, who is now head of tst. TV, who I've known ever since then has been a close friend of mine. So now we're, we're both doing this whole, the Satanic Temple thing. But you only asked one question. It's been this long.

Stephen Bradford Long 22:19
No worries. I mean, for something like the process church, this level of detail is necessary a because people have just my cat is pushing the mic. A because people have just never heard of the process. And be it's a super fucking weird cold. Like, it's a very, very weird moment, like thing phenomenon in the history of new religious movements. So yeah, no, I mean, I feel like all of this background is necessary.

Doug Misicko 22:46
Well, if you're part of an organization like this, it behooves you to know the history of any possible analogous organization, right and know which directions you want to take and which directions you don't want to take. Because at a certain point, even if you're the top leader of an organization, in a certain sense, you're also a cog in a machine. And there's certain demands that are put upon you by your membership followers, or whatever. And if you don't set appropriate expectations up front, where if you make promises you can't deliver on or if you lock yourself into an unprovable belief system, or whatever else who knows how that plays out for you, right? And I don't think Robert grimston, or Marianne, went into what they did, with the intention of becoming called leaders, I think they went in with the opposite intention. So that's why I say, when we first started, it was more me looking to organizations like the process to figure out what not to do. And then when we were discussing the symbolism behind the Baphomet monument, that's when you can see a lot of borrowing of process perspectives, because you do have all those binary elements on Baphomet. And I do think the strongest message related to Baphomet is the same message that was kind of the core philosophy of the process church in the final judgment, the reconciliation of opposites, and I thought it fit really well with the idea that we were putting a religious monument on public grounds, not to usurp the place of another religion in anybody else's minds. But in order to engage publicly by upholding pluralism in showing that the two can coexist, even if they're, you know, ostensibly diametrically opposed, but we could transcend that and there can be a reconciliation of the opposites.

Stephen Bradford Long 24:56
So I have a theory and I want to run it by you because was one of the experiences. One of the experiences that I had when I first joined TST was a surprise at the lack of pushback at how for lack of a better term, Christian I was, I see my you know, I come from the Christian world, I did not convert from, you know, I didn't D convert from Christianity to atheism, I converted from Christianity, like directly into Satanism. And I took a lot of Christianity with me. And one of the things that appealed to me about TST was that I felt like I could do that I felt like I could retain a love for the symbol of Jesus, but while rejecting the supernaturalism, while rejecting the unfounded claims, while rejecting the toxicity, the homophobia, the sexism, the transphobia, just all of the bullshit, but take but but that I didn't have to remove the Christianity from myself wholesale. And I think that the reason why I was able to do that is because maybe of the influence of the process church that this is about the reconciliation of opposites, and that there is a much greater openness to like dual religious identities within TST there is a much greater openness towards towards reconciling something like my past in Christianity with my current Satanism, and, and kind of celebrating both. And so feeling perfectly at home in TST, as someone who I think culturally is still very Christian, you know, and I feel like that that influence or I feel like that might be due to the influence of the process church and I, I've never felt pressured within TST to be anything other than what I am, which is this weird syncretistic to you Satanist, who has borrowed a lot from Christianity, and still really loves a lot of my Christian background. What do you think of that theory? Do you? Because I don't feel like that would be true in church of Satan?

Doug Misicko 27:17
Well, no, clearly, it's not there. They're there. As far as I can tell, their only purpose is to advance the idea that they have sole ownership over, yes, over Satanism. And I honestly don't feel like I'm insulting them by saying that I honestly feel that that serves their soul.

Stephen Bradford Long 27:35
They have said that to me, people they have they have told me I don't think that's a distortion at all, they have legit said those words.

Doug Misicko 27:43
Right, right. And so I think, I mean, if you have, if you have nothing else to do, if you have nothing else to claim for your, your activities, I guess that's going to be primary and important. But it's not to us, I feel like we have, I feel like that's another benefit to us being very active, and in the real world, to the point that we don't have to really care that much about, you know, whether people are looking to assess as the truth. I mean, if they want to go to the church of Satan, go ahead, you know, if they want to go elsewhere, fine. You know, really, like, if you're not sure about TST, don't don't come, you know, like, we we don't have membership fees, we don't have tithing, we don't have, you know, we don't have this mission to proselytize to people. So, to that end, you know, we might as well have a membership that fully embraces what we really are truly understands it. And that'll be more of a credit to us than, than anything else. But what's kind of remarkable is how we've gotten pushback from the courts for be for that kind of openness, and how people have tried to use that openness to discredit us as a religion, which we saw during the Scottsdale case. The fact that we would accept allies to work with us who weren't, who weren't self identified. Satanists was being used as an argument that well, maybe none of them are satanists. Maybe there's no such thing as Satanism, that kind of thing. And I thought it was a really I thought it was a really cheap kind of argument

Stephen Bradford Long 29:26
really elemental it like it that's that's like a toddler trick like that. That's just a very childish approach to religion.

Doug Misicko 29:35
Don't make me go off on a tangent about what a dickhead that lawyer was.

Stephen Bradford Long 29:40
Well, I think so I just recently interviewed Matt because i Who's legal counsel for the Satanic Temple.

Doug Misicko 29:47
We knows what a decade back Ed? Yes.

Stephen Bradford Long 29:49
I think he alluded sub to that in the episode but

Doug Misicko 29:53
that guy was that guy was an incredible dickhead. He was like a caricature of a dickhead like the character Okay, I can type it was.

Stephen Bradford Long 30:04
That's hilarious. Yeah. So, so I, I definitely see the influence of like the reconciliation of opposites, pluralism, the, you know, the fact that in the process church there was such an emphasis on the reconciliation of opposites and the the veneration of God, Satan, Jehovah and Lucifer or Jesus, which was Lucifer, there's Jesus, Jehovah Lucifer

Doug Misicko 30:37
and Satan, Jesus and Jehovah

Stephen Bradford Long 30:39
and I, that really resonated with me when, because I even though I didn't know about the process, church, and I didn't really know those intellectual underpinnings at the time. One of the things that really connected with me back in 2017, when I was exploring TSP, and it just clicked was, oh, this, I can be the Baphomet I can contain within my being night and day, light and dark Christianity and Satanism. And I consider

Doug Misicko 31:11
my edits best Yeah, at its best. That's what the process was teaching. But there seemed to be oscillation and confusion as to whether they considered themselves even internally there was this confusion, it seemed as to whether they were theistic and thought of these entities as literal beings out in the cosmos, or whether these were different components within each of ourselves, whether we each contained, or if it was both of those things. You know, we contain a Jehovah Jesus is Satan and Lucifer. And these are the different components of ourselves that we, we need to understand and have sympathy for, and balance those things against each other, like amongst the satanic Luciferian side, you'd have your carnal self, that kind of thing. And then, you know, on the Jehovah Jesus side, you'd have your more spiritual self.

Stephen Bradford Long 32:08
Yeah, yeah, kind of thing. But there was there was like, but there was constant confusion is what I'm hearing between whether those were like internal archetypes and kind of a union sense, or if they were actual literal deities out in the universe that had like personalities and stuff.

32:25
It appears to me that there was that confusion. There's, I mean, academics always depart on these things. And I've seen other academic writings that seem to take a hard stance on the process being clear about this one way or the other. And I think they're just taking a snapshot in time, and they're not realizing how, how iffy that was, how convoluted the process was, well, if you see over time, I think you you know, if you probably went to certain events, certain sermons, looked at certain documents and stuff like that, you'd say they're very clear about what they are, but then you'd see something else that contradicts that later on.

Stephen Bradford Long 33:06
So yeah, and you know, just to be clear to listeners, I I consider, you know, my my primary religious identity is satanist right now, but there was like this very fuzzy period, in Windows, it was almost like I was a planet orbiting two sons. And there was like, one son was Christianity and then the was like, nontheistic Christianity, and then the other son was Satanism. And it was like, you know, going back and forth between these two symbolic universes and it was honestly a, a kind of really cool mental exercise and in in cognitive flexibility, and then eventually I realized that no, you know, my my home really is in Satanism, but I don't hate my I don't hate my Christian background. I hate the abuses within Christianity. I hate the abuses that come from theocracy that come from supernaturalism that come from superstitious belief. I despise all of that. But in a lot of ways, I still love the figure of Jesus the Met depending on which figure depending on which myth of Jesus, and but also none of this is to like, Oh, this is what I was going to say none of this is to discredit the importance of blasphemy as like a form of catharsis like I have no problem with you know, a black mass and desecrating the Eucharist and all that kind of amazing stuff because that's like important to overcome religious trauma. So just for anyone listening who might who might, I don't know feel judged about their blasphemous practices against Christianity. I think it's totally developmentally appropriate to do those things.

Doug Misicko 34:52
Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, yeah, me too. And like you say it's a it's lashing out against religious trauma I think exactly bar are doing Right. In any case, it's not necessarily this mean spirited thing, but it's more like, you know, casting out your abuser from your mind. And you can do that while still recognizing that other people see it a completely different way. And now you're getting a bit too nuanced I think for a lot of the people protest us in here, yes, type of thing.

Stephen Bradford Long 35:24
Well, I like I really like what my friend Miss Ida says, she's a satanic drag queen, and she's one of my best friends. And she says, blasphemy, not blast for you. It's glad it's blasphemy. It is. I'm doing blasphemy for my own catharsis. I'm not doing it for anyone else. I'm not doing it to piss anyone off. It is for my own cathartic emotional release. And I I really liked the way she put that.

Doug Misicko 35:56
Yeah, we're a long way from that being generally recognized. So and Robin, right. Even when you see some of the treatments of us that are inclined to our favor. Sometimes they've tried to whitewash the blasphemous elements from the from public view. When Lisa Ling first did a documentary piece about us for CNN, back in I think 2016 or something like that on the show. This is life. It was it was notable that they edited out some of the blasphemous elements that I think they anticipated the general CNN audience would would find too disturbing.

Stephen Bradford Long 36:41
So you have a process tattoo, and you told me before we started recording that it frequently gets confused for a swastika. Talk

Doug Misicko 36:50
about I don't think it I don't think it actually honestly ever gets confused for as well. I think

Stephen Bradford Long 36:55
people are just being deliberately Sorry, go on finit finish.

Doug Misicko 37:00
I think I think that's people Yeah, deliberately trying to misrepresent and trying to cast aspersions and I mean, if you don't know what a swastika looks like, I doubt you have any rights to claim your for or against it to be to be honest. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 37:18
it's like if your history it would be a very derpy swastika. If it was a swastika, it would be like a bullet

37:25
in reality, straight from the person who created the symbol who Timothy Wiley told me it was four P's overlapping one another interlocking. So you know that's that's the design. It's it's symmetrical with four angles, like the like the swastika, but there the similarity ends and it's clearly not a swastika. But even in the in the Arkansas case, where we're putting the where we're fighting to have the Baphomet monument erected on the public grounds because they put a 10 commandments monument there. Their argument against us has gone so far away from the legal argument, that they're even trying to make the case about me in trying to make the case that I have a swastika tattoo, and that the process tattoo is a swastika tattoo and I went for depositions. Two days, seven hours a fucking day. And at one point, this another dickhead lawyer, Mike Cantrell, in Arkansas, little fuck that he is, was sitting there asking me about this tattoo, insisting it was a swastika, and I was telling him quite plainly, it is not can you not see this tattoo? swastika tattoo is I told him that it's for peace overlapping. I told him that he can look in any book and compare it against the swastika. It's clearly not that and that he was barking up the wrong tree. This asshole lied in a recent motion in the state of Arkansas, and he actually put into this motion that I admitted in deposition that it is a swastika and oh my god, I feel like I don't know maybe we should should motion for sanctions or something like that because now they're clearly lying to the courts. And it's infuriating.

Stephen Bradford Long 39:25
Also, you would be the worst neo Nazi ever since like you believe in plurality. You you believe in in core liberal principles like free speech and your and you believe in compassion and honoring all people's bodily autonomy like you just be a really fucking bad neo Nazi.

Doug Misicko 39:49
I'm also I'm also part Jewish, the ancestry the Are you willing, that I didn't I didn't know it until more recently tell you Family. Oh, nice. Okay, cool. Yeah, took the test. And

40:05
I mean, there you go. I, well, I'm so not a neo Nazi that this was that this kind of meant nothing to me like I hear sometimes people take these ancestral tests and they hear that they're, you know, some ethnic mix that they had no idea and it's a total upheaval to their sense of self. Yeah. I mean, they could have told me literally anything they could have told me I was 80% African and I would have said, Okay, I mean, it doesn't.

Stephen Bradford Long 40:34
Yeah, no, I get that, like I, there are people whose whose identity is very rooted in the fact that, you know, back in the day, their ancestors were Scottish rapists and pillagers. And it's like, that really fucking matters to them. And then they take a DNA test and their entire self conception is ruined. But okay, so speaking of Neo Nazis, you went on Tucker Carlson. This was the third time you were on Tucker Carlson, right? Or third, fourth time, third time. Right. Okay. So for how, from your perspective? How did that conversation go? So it was about the it was about the after school Satan club, from your perspective? How, how did that conversation go down?

Doug Misicko 41:26
Well, it's amazing how many miles of difference what years away, a first appearance can be from a third appearance when it comes to national, or international televised events, like, you know, Primetime Fox News. In that the first time I was gonna go on Tucker Carlson, I had that anticipation all day long, you typically only find out the day off, that you're gonna go out, they reach out in there you go. And, you know, you'll find out around noon, and then that evening, you'll be in the studio, doing your interview. And I didn't know enough about Tucker Carlson first time I went on, and I looked him up. And, you know, there was a lot of there was a lot online, talking about his actual credibility as a journalist and how he had really ruined people in debates. And he was supposed to be really good at just demolishing his opponents to the point.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:22
Now this was back. This was back in like, 2016 or 2017. Right? When you did your first

Doug Misicko 42:30
2018, I think around there, I think you in the second time I was on was pretty close on the heels of that one. But, you know, the second time, I felt more confident this time, I hardly thought about it at all, you know, I was on my way to the studio, and I was doing other things and just thinking I gotta get this out of the way. But I was also thinking that this time, he just needed to give me the most, most basic opening, and I was going to tear him a new asshole, you know, because he had been such a prick the last time I was on. And he he broke that barrier. When, at the end of the second interview with me, he just yelled at me that I should go crawl back into my hole. So this time, I was thinking like, I am not going to get insulted with I'm not going to get be insulted by this guy without answering it, you know, so I was really ready for the verbal sparring. I was ready for a fight. And I got on. And there just wasn't the availability for that I was on So briefly, I thought, you know, we talked a little bit, I pushed him to define what he was talking about at some point, which is when I was opening the door for getting aggressive at him. And he shut it down right away, just kind of thanked me for coming on and called it at that. And I thought well, this was worth nothing. You know, I thought I was really gonna get a chance to go Adam, it didn't happen. And I thought, well, this isn't gonna, you know, this isn't gonna get any attention. But this seems to be the one of maybe people were able to read my mood or attitude or whatever. But it seems like people really felt I did put them in its place. And that, you know, this was definitely how you handle hostile media. And there was even some Reddit group that were holding this up. I guess it was the anti work movement because some of their spokespeople did so poorly.

Stephen Bradford Long 44:31
Oh, that's right. They had they had their media kerfuffle debacle on Fox News.

Doug Misicko 44:38
I'm not saying they and I'm not saying they did poorly by myself. Oh,

Stephen Bradford Long 44:41
no, no, and I'm not I'm not these interviews. And I'm not criticizing. Yeah,

Doug Misicko 44:45
from a lot of their camp was that their spokespeople had done poorly and they were actually upholding my interview as like emblematic of the way to handle hostile media.

Stephen Bradford Long 44:57
That's interesting. Yeah, yeah. The whole anti work thing is really interesting. And honestly, the person that Fox News had on from anti work seemed really cool. Like I would hang out with them that it was just like not maybe not the best person to appear on Fox News. But yeah, all that aside, it was I watched it, and

Doug Misicko 45:17
you have to focus on the right message, you know, and you have to know when a message goes wrong, regardless of its merits, and what people will take from it, what people distill from sometimes even the right message, and I think at at their best, that's what they meant by looking to what I do when I go on. I mean, for instance, like there were ways I could have rebutted certain things Tucker Carlson was saying, but I'm very reticent to go into arguments regarding situations, case studies, or whatever, that I have no prior knowledge of. And that's what Tucker Carlson was trying to throw at me when I was on his show. And I just said, I don't know what case you're talking about. He was talking about somebody not being allowed to read from the Bible at school or whatever. Oh, yeah, topic anyways,

Stephen Bradford Long 46:07
I remember that it was so stupid. So So basically, what you're saying is to not take the bait like to stay on point to just like not let yourself be pushed around or be baited into something where you might, you know, be made to look like an idiot by editing and by the interviewer. In other words,

Doug Misicko 46:27
this is the essence of the talk I gave with Satan con two, which is now available on tst. TV, but I was talking about how, if you go into a situation like that, there's especially the first time you're going to go on, I wouldn't even wish that upon it. That's Nagant amazing bit of stress, to know that millions of people are going to be watching you that night, in front of a hostile interviewer and a mostly hostile, regular audience. And it they're going to be trying to trip you up. And you're only as good as your last performance. And when your performance has that big of an audience. You're unfortunately just not going to live it down if you fuck it off. Now you have know that going in, and all the while you have to be trying to not get agitated or paranoid about it, because that's going to ruin your performance more than anything if you go in very close. That's a

Stephen Bradford Long 47:24
that's a very distressing state of mind to be in. Yeah, that's very, very, very,

Doug Misicko 47:31
in all humility, I have to say it takes I think it takes a lot of self discipline to be in the right mindset to be able to do that. Because sure it takes it takes focusing on. It takes narrowing your focus it while you have such weight in the background of that focus that you're ignoring, right? You have to ignore that the the potential hazards that are very real and very potentially long term reputational ly damaging, because you know, fair not, you know that. That's it. And you could see Tucker Carlson's tactic. The first time I was on we were talking about the Belle Plaine monument, which was a similar argument to the Baphomet monument case where there was a Christian monument on public grounds. So we offered a satanic monument to maintain pluralism. And Tucker Carlson, of course, wanted me on because he wants to stoke outrage amongst his audience that Satanists could have a have a monument on public grounds at all. And who the hell are they? However, I did see about him, which I predicted before I started looking up material, you know, that he would toe the FoxNews line, that he's really a defender of religious liberty and free speech, and that it's the liberals and progressives that are trying to take that away. So I was dedicated to making him forcing him to reconcile that cognitive dissonance and not being pulled into a trap where I was trying to justify Satanism in all of two minutes, you know, to a Fox News audience. So I took the position that I didn't care what he thought about Satanism. And, yeah, I mean, this pissed some people off who identified as Satanists within the Satanic Temple, because they, I think, had I don't want to say delusional idea, but I just think the misinformed idea that I would have ever had a chance to truly elaborate upon our beliefs. For instance, Tucker Carlson asked me to explain what the eight pillars of Satanism are, which clearly had nothing to do with us and was, you know, a kind of indirect attempt at disparagement already but I told them that you could look them up, it didn't really matter in this case. So because the point was, is that we had a right to be there, we have a right to free expression and to express our point of views, and that we had a right to the public grounds and the government, no government agency had a right to pick and choose between modes of religious expression. And I had to force him to agree with that, which I think really pissed him off the first time, because he ended up having to agree, you know, and he started calling into question. The numbers. You know, he asked how many members the Satanic Temple has? I told him at the time, what are, what the most accurate estimate was? And then he started saying he didn't believe that at all. And then I said, it doesn't matter. It was actually with us in and then he had to agree and say, well, it could be one of you. And so it went great. Yeah, and we're in agreement. So...

Stephen Bradford Long 51:07
...and I found that I found it really refreshing actually, because, you know, I, because that's actually a line that I have taken when it comes to a lot of conversations lately, where because I find myself in kind of interfaith situations all the time. For me, the answer is always well, it doesn't matter. What matters is that the, the state, the federal government recognizes us as a religion that matters. But it also matters that for me, in my day to day life, and my fellow Satanists, we see this, and we live it as a religion. And so regardless of whatever definition of religion you have in your head, the fact is, we're living it as a religion. It's a religion to me, it really doesn't matter what you think of it, it isn't going to make the reality go away.

Doug Misicko 52:00
Right. And if the government didn't recognize us, it still it would still, the satanists, congregations would still be doing rituals, where do you categorize that? You know, what do you what do you call it, then? I mean, I guess then they would just insist that we stop.

Stephen Bradford Long 52:18
Yes. And I don't mean to...

Doug Misicko 52:21
Like it or not, you know, this is where we're at. And this is what we're doing.

Stephen Bradford Long 52:24
Yeah, exactly. And I always just, I find that cognitive dissonance always so interesting, how people have such a hard time accepting that Satanists might be real, and all of the ways in and Joseph Laycock says, well, one of the reasons why is because we are politically active. And maybe one of the reasons why Anton LaVey, was never really questioned as to whether he was a real religious person or not, was well, he stayed in his place. He stayed in the shadows, he stayed out of politics and social activist, he never asserted himself into the the, quote, unquote, mainstream the way TST is doing. And so it's, it's like we can we can accept certain religious identities as long as they stay within their hierarchical place. Does that make sense?

Doug Misicko 53:26
I mean, that bed said, look at our opposition, they explicitly identify as religious. And they make, you know, great efforts to put people of their religious faith and their deeply held beliefs into offices of political presence to pass legislation that's in line with their religious moral code. And that's just kind of taken as a given, you know, this evangelical movement, nobody questions whether that's actually religious or not. So that's when it becomes more confusing to me. It's like, why is it difficult for people to see that this idea that religion isn't politically active? And yet when we do these things, in contrast to somebody else doing, you know, political, religious activities in the name of evangelical theocratic efforts, I find it bizarre that more people can accept that. You know, a lot of religions have notions about how an ordered society is run and develops. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 54:36
definitely. Well, I think that's a great note to end on. I would, I would keep going with you. But honestly, daylight savings has completely fucked me up and I am exhausted. lately. I've

Doug Misicko 54:49
been waking up early. And I was thinking like, oh, it's because of the time change. I'm waking up earlier now and then I wait a minute, I should be waking up.

Stephen Bradford Long 54:58
It's because it's because you're now in Old Man who uses the word lit and try to you know, fit in with the kids. No, I'm kidding. But ya know, like, like every year, I'm like, Okay, it's gonna hit me really hard. I need to like prepare for this and then I'm never prepared for it and it always just completely fucks me up for about a week and a half and it feels like I'm, I have jet lag and it's just one hour. It's just one hour difference and I'm like Jesus Christ. I'm my brain is such a goddamn princess. But anyway, so I'm super tired. I need to head to bed soon. But this has been great. And we will talk again soon. Great. Thank you so much. All right, that is it for this show. The theme song is wild by eleventy seven. You can find it on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to music. This show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long and it is made possible by my patrons and it is a production of rock candy recordings, as always Hail Satan. And thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STReactionaryTrapFINAL

2022-10-11T08:06:11Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STReactionaryTrapFINAL
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, reactionary, left, ideas, social media, lindsay, principles, progressive, happening, helpful, point, persuasion, thinking, push, agree, problem, world, twitter, online, climate change
SPEAKERS
Stephen Bradford Long, Seth Moskowitz

Stephen Bradford Long 00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast this is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long, and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com All right, well in this episode, I am incredibly excited to talk to Seth Moskowitz from persuasion magazine about his article the reactionary trap. I think it's incredibly useful. But before we get to that, I have to thank my patrons. My patrons are my personal lords and saviors. So if you would like to support my crippling content creation addiction, so I don't have to do unspeakable things on the street, then go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long. For $1 $3 $5 a month you get extra content every single week and you also get access to my patrons only podcast house of heretics where myself a satanist and my co host Timothy McPherson, a former Salvation Army officer turned Christian heretic discuss what's going on in the world. We talk about politics, we talk about religion, we talk about philosophy, we talk about the latest news this week, we talked about the horrible horrible news out of the Supreme Court. So we discuss whatever is going on in the world from our unique sometimes dissonant perspective. So if that is interesting to you, then please become a patron and every little bit helps. This is a one man operation here. I do all of the booking all of the writing, all of the recording all of the editing, it's a lot of work. But I believe in bringing this to the public for free because we need interesting and engaging conversations. I need your help to keep it going for this week. I have to thank the patrons King zombie, a doses start and lunar loon. Thank you so much. I truly could not do this without you. Alright, with all of that finally out of the way, Seth Moskowitz, thank you so much for joining me.

Seth Moskowitz 02:21
I so appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

Stephen Bradford Long 02:25
So tell us some about who you are and what you do.

Seth Moskowitz 02:27
Yeah. So, I'm Seth, I'm an editor at persuasion magazine. And I do some freelance writing as well. persuasions, a substack newsletter that essentially focuses on contemporary politics, from a small l liberal perspective. So we have pieces from the left and from the right, trying to understand current politics, internationally and domestically here in the States, all coming from a small l perspective.

Stephen Bradford Long 02:53
And when you say small l liberal perspective, what do you mean by that?

Seth Moskowitz 02:57
Yeah. So I mean, when you when you say small l liberal, essentially what you're saying is perspective of the politics and of government that takes the first priority of those institutions to be maximizing individual freedom, essentially, a rights based individual system,

Stephen Bradford Long 03:13
right. So it, it focuses, I always like to think of small l liberalism as kind of focusing on the two furthest poles of human identity being the individual and our universal humanity. And so it's like emphasizing the, you know, individual rights, individual freedoms and kind of our our shared humanity as the most important identity that we share together. Would you say that that's like, a good way of thinking about small l liberalism?

Seth Moskowitz 03:45
Yeah, I think that that's a good way. You know, this is actually something that I sometimes have a hard time with, because it's such a loose concept, and a constellation of ideas. That is, you really have to try to tie together because it comes from a long history of philosophical ideas and government institutions. And sometimes it's hard to say like, what, what is a liberal society or what is a liberal? But I think that's a pretty good way to do it. You know, I think on the one side, there's, there's liberals who say that the prior priority should be maximizing individual freedom. And then maybe on the other side would be communitarian to say that the primary goal of society should be to search for the common good. And I think in some ways, those are kind of the poles as I see them.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:28
I'm a big fan of persuasion. I've been reading it since it first started and it is started by Yoshua monk. Is that right? Is he the founder? Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yasha monk is a fascinating guy. He writes a lot about like totalitarianism. And yeah, so it's, uh, and I've learned a lot from the persuasion community like I've I find it a really engaging and gently gently pushes me to consider press effectives that maybe I haven't previously. So I really, really, really love persuasion. You wrote a fantastic article, I believe it was earlier this year. Was it in January? January 14? Is Yeah, yeah. So So you wrote an article called the reactionary trap. And you, I found this article so helpful for understanding, like the story arcs of so many people online, and some of the intellectual pitfalls that I have noticed myself falling into over the years. And it is such a helpful heuristic for understanding so much so. So at the beginning of this article, you start with a story about a guy named James Lindsay. So tell us who James Lindsay is, and, and what you witnessed on Twitter with James Lindsay,

Seth Moskowitz 05:55
telling you who James Lindsay is, is tough. So I guess it's best to go back. I think it was in 2017, or maybe 2018. Him and a few colleagues, he was a pretty normal, progressive, I think he was he called himself a liberal. And he and a few colleagues worked together to write fake research papers that they ended up submitting to national journals, and the research papers that they wrote that were kind of that that were blatantly fake, were kind of going too far on the social justice agenda. They took things to the extreme. And their goal was to show that these journals and the liberal intellectuals were not serious people, and they weren't taking the work seriously. They kind of swallow anything at all that was in that far left progressive milieu. And that's an interesting project, you know, it's kind of interesting to say, and learn, like how what what will these journals accept? And how far are they willing to go to accept the new progressive dogma that's been floating around. And so that's how he first got his name out there. But then progressively from around 2017, to 2022, he just slowly started getting more radical and strange and the things he was posting until the point where he was radically against anything that was coming from the progressive social justice side of the spectrum. And essentially, he turned it into a troll, like from 2017, when he was somewhat normal liberal, had interesting critiques of, if you can call it workplace or social justice, and then fast forward to 2021 or 2022. And essentially, his whole persona online is making fun of people who are progressive and seriously over exaggerating the harms that wokeness might have to the point where he's saying that there's going to be some kind of civil war, or maybe that people who are woke are trying to commit some kind of a genocide against white women to the point where he's really gone off the rails from a few years ago when he was a relatively interesting person to listen to.

Stephen Bradford Long 07:57
Yeah, you have here, looking through Lindsay's Twitter history is like watching a train coming off its tracks and then later in 2021, he warned that a literal death cold is running the Western world into the ground right now and claimed that critical theory approaches to education are meant to psychologically damage your children, so they can be used in a revolution that will rob us all of our freedoms. He has gone so far as to declare that inclusion COVID policy and justice are Trojan horses for communism. Yeah, so and I had the same experience with James Lindsay where so I read his book cynical theories with Helen pluck rose and by the way, I have interviewed Helen pluck rose. She's super interesting, and I still don't know what I think of the book cynical theories and I don't know entirely, I'm still kind of forming my thoughts on Helen's critiques and, and whatnot, and whether I think they have merit or not, so I'm still figuring that all out. But all that aside, their book is not conspiratorial. So I read cynical theories and found it a critique. I found it a, a good, thoughtful, challenging critique. That doesn't mean it's necessarily correct, but it wasn't flying off the rails. And then I get online, and I'm like, Okay, I'm going to I'm going to hunt down James Lindsay and find him online. And I found his Twitter feed it it was just so absolutely fucking bonkers. You describe this process as being the reactionary trap. What is the reactionary trap?

Seth Moskowitz 09:49
Yeah, so the reaction so it's essentially I think, people traditionally think of reactionaries as always coming from the right. It's a political ideology that people think that only concern lives are susceptible to this way of thinking. Because essentially what a reactionary is, is someone who sees the past in some way as something that we should try to get back to this, they have an attempt in an intense nostalgia for some previous historical area or some social order. And they say, oh, okay, this is what I what I want to go back to. And something that comes along with that oftentimes, is a reflexive opposition to whatever kind of progress is happening today. And so the reactionary trap, I think, is when people who are who see themselves as progressive, or on the left side of the political spectrum, they see themselves as immune to becoming a reactionary. And because of that, they, they are totally oblivious to these ways of thinking that are hallmarks of reactionary where whatever's happening in society, the way that things are changing, maybe are a little bit scary, or are causing them to, to kind of overreact to whatever's happening. And they say, Okay, well, I'm on the left side of the political spectrum. I'm a progressive. So I am in no danger of falling into this reactionary way of thinking,

Stephen Bradford Long 11:13
right? Or they're like I am, I'm so committed to rationality, I'm so committed to you know, I'm such a clear thinker, that there's no way that I'll become reactionary. And then lo and behold, you see this arc on Twitter, you you define being reactionary as two particular things, which is becoming so preoccupied with who or what they are against, that the foundation of their politics is reflexive opposition, rather than first principles or reason, and then to vastly inflating the threat of whatever it is that they oppose driving responses disproportionate to the scale of the harms, they critique. And, you know, this makes me think of so, so much of the language I see on the right about wokeness. And I'm like, I will be the first to admit that there is a lot of dysfunction in leftist spaces. I am a leftist. And I'm gay, the the level of dysfunction that I have witnessed in socialist and LGBTQ spaces online is simply astonishing and staggering. And so I will be the first to admit that there is some extraordinary dysfunction, and backstabbing and fighting and false accusations and all of that stuff within leftist spaces. But then I see people on the right say, this is a threat to civilization. And I'm like, Okay, I'm going to need you to walk me through the steps from A to Z from there's dysfunction on the left that needs to be addressed to this is a threat to Western civilization like that, if that's the kind of catastrophizing that you're referring to something can be a problem without it being an existential threat.

Seth Moskowitz 13:05
Yeah, absolutely. I think if you go on, I don't want to go back to James Lindsay. But sometimes it's helpful, especially because I think he's,

Stephen Bradford Long 13:13
he's such an illustrative example, though. So yeah, go.

Seth Moskowitz 13:17
Especially because, because him and I know that, hey, you said you had Helen on the podcast, I think they're the way that they kind of diverged and split off is so illustrative of the two routes that you can kind of take as a thoughtful, progressive, who's maybe kind of skeptical of a lot of these ideas that are coming from the social justice work arena. So I think it's kind of helpful to go go back to the kind of dichotomy there. But anyways, so if you look at James Lindsay's Twitter feed, I think if you distilled it down maybe to like, the very essence of what was in one of those tweets that was maybe like, I'm concerned about children being taught something about race in schools. I personally would be like, Okay, maybe there's something there that I can agree with. There's I'd also be skeptical maybe of teaching students that their race is important that they should the first one of the first things they should notice about their classmates is what they look like or what the race is, when you see James Lindsay's tweet, the thing he's saying is, they're trying to build an army of children who are going to come destroy the social order we know today for something like that. Where it's like, maybe there's something there. That's kind of true. But he takes it so far and vastly placed the threat to the point where it's just like this is nowhere on the plane of reality. And I think that's like you said those two key tenants were one you lose sight of what you're for and you lose sight of your principles. And to become you become so fearful of what you're against the you inflate the thread, to proportion that's just unrealistic. Those are the things that make reactionary a problem because I think sometimes reactionary put the idea that something in the past was better It isn't always wrong, if sometimes maybe progressive. Today, we'll look back to the 50s and 60s and look at the union representation. So that's something we want to go back to, which I don't think is, is inherently, it's not inherently wrong to look back and say maybe something was better in the past. But it's these two other ideas where you kind of, can become unable to handle any nuance in combination with wanting to go back to something in the past, that makes it a more harmful ideology.

Stephen Bradford Long 15:31
Yeah. And it's, it's the betrayal of reason. Because the past isn't valuable, because it's the past elements in the past are valuable, because they are reasonable to return to. And so the past has nothing to do with it. It has entirely to do with where do our first principles lead us? Where do our principles of, of reason, and compassion and equality lead us? And that might lead us to say, Okay, there's something in the present that's broken, and maybe something we did 50 years ago worked better. So we will go back to that it has nothing to do with, with an idealization of the past itself.

Seth Moskowitz 16:11
Yeah. And I think I think that's helpful, because we have 1000s of years of history to learn from, and like you said, like the thing, we can look back at history and say, Oh, this is actually a pretty good time period, maybe this is something that that was working for them. And you don't inherently say, oh, we need to go back to the past, because it was the past need to look and say, Okay, this is what they were doing the past. Let's look at it with reason with are the principles and the things that we value today and think through and have a discussion of, is this something we want to go back to, rather than just letting your reflexes have some kind of fear, or reflexive opposition to progressive change that's happening today, kind of push you into this mindset where you say, anything that's new, anything that's changing is, is bad. So the alternative is to jump back 20 years or jump back to the way things were before? Do you have

Stephen Bradford Long 17:05
any examples of how this reactionary trap the trap of over inflating the harm? To the degree that people abandon their first principles? Any other examples on the left? Because we all know that the right does this, we all know that, that there are, you know, raging lunatics on the right, who are absolutely fucking terrifying. Any other examples of movements or individuals that you can think of on the left? Who Who are illustrative of this?

Seth Moskowitz 17:37
Yeah, it you're right, it is harder to find examples on the left. But I think one that's pretty illustrative is the anti Growth Movement. I'm not sure if you're familiar, I have never heard of this, what is this? So it's essentially people who are, are so worried about climate change, which obviously, is a valid concern, that they think that we need to shrink the economy and work against human population, we need to shrink the size of human population, we need to eliminate machines and cars, and any sort of technology that is causing climate change to the point where we need to actually start shrinking our economy that rather than having positive GDP, and continuing economic expansion, the way that we're going to solve climate change, is to shrink the GDP back to what it was maybe 20 or 30 years ago. So rather than innovation and trying to create new technologies that will be able to deal with climate change, by eliminating the need for fossil fuels, their responses, we need to actually shrink the number of people who are in existence, and we need to D grow and grow shrink the economy. So that will stop eliminate, it will stop polluting the earth and causing climate change.

Stephen Bradford Long 18:52
When you say first principles, what do you mean by that?

Seth Moskowitz 18:56
So for me first principles, I think, come back come back down to a lot of the ideas that are embedded in in small liberalism. So the idea that our society, the the first goal, and first principles of our society should be focused around making sure that individuals have the freedom to live the lives that they want to. So that's, that's where I come from with my first principles. I think, generally in America, individualism is an important principle that we all have commitment to democracy, freedom of speech, and the value of open inquiry and open discussion, the value valuing humans as individuals, rather than as members of groups, and solely as avatars of their skin color, their sex or their gender. I think all of these are first principles that I am drawn towards, and that I sort of use to build my political philosophy. And I'm not saying that everybody has to share the same ones that I do. But I think that it's important in general to have these sorts of principles that you that you use as a framework for building your Political worldview, rather than just going with your gut instinct, because that oftentimes just isn't the right way to go because humans are at root, we're, we're evolutionary created animals that have instincts that are sometimes not right for contemporary society. And so you have to try to build your worldview from something a little bit deeper.

Stephen Bradford Long 20:23
Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm right there with you. And when you say, woke, so at the big we've been, we've been throwing around this word woke, which I think has become kind of a trigger word. So you know, some people will hear us say, Whoa, can be like, Oh, my God, these, you know, these white conservative bros, using woke as an insult. And, and they might not be wrong, because the word woke has has become weaponized. So when you use the word woke, what do you mean by that?

Seth Moskowitz 20:54
I 100% agree with you. It's, it's a hard word. Because in some ways, it's descriptive. But I think a lot of times, if you ask somebody to define it, they're going to struggle for words. Yeah. So when I say it, I guess I'm, I'm thinking of something pretty specific. And it's this ideology. On the left, let's become focused to the point of exclusion of any other sort of principles, on the idea of oppression, and of oppressors. So essentially, when I think of people who are woke, they see the world as divided in between oppressors and oppressed. And essentially, on any dimension, you can divide the world into those two camps, and one side is good, and one side is bad, we need to be helping one side and punishing the other. And the one thing that I layer on top of that is that it's a sort of performance. So you need to show other people that you're believing in this ideology, and this worldview. And you it's not something that you can do internally. Because if you have this idea of maybe the world is divided between oppressors and oppressed, and we need to work. Our first our first priority, the most important thing we need to be doing is to be helping the oppressed. And that's, I would say, that's an interesting ideology, I wouldn't say that's wokeness. I think wokeness is when you're putting on a performance to show other people that you're good that you're moral, and that you are on the same team as them.

Stephen Bradford Long 22:19
I can't wait to hear the response to that from from my audience and see what debates emerge about the definition of brokenness. So everyone in my Discord server, please let me know what you think of that I can't wait to see I'm curious,

Seth Moskowitz 22:30
what do you have a definition that you go by?

Stephen Bradford Long 22:33
So for me, I don't know what people mean, when they say the word woke, and yet I find myself using it. I find, I think wokeness is kind of the, the ideological child of thinkers like Kimberly Crenshaw, and Delgado, and Michel Foucault, and so on. And, and I'm not going and I don't dismiss it wholesale. I think that there are some really, there are some really interesting insights there. But neither is it sacrosanct. You know, and this is one of the things that I always want to push back against is just, just because the right is turning something like critical race theory into this absolute monster that is coming for all our children, does not mean that we have to respond by by term by making it infallible, it's like, no, it's just a school of thought there are going to be some good ideas, and they're going to be some bad ideas there. And it's like, we can keep our heads about us and still, rationally parse the schools of thought. And so I, I think I would call myself moderately woke, in that. I think that stuff like intersectionality, within certain context is a really helpful tool. And it might not be a helpful tool in every context, and may be taken in certain directions, it actually works against its own causes, and its own goals. And it's like, this stuff is complicated. And there's no I don't think that there's any school of thought that is 100% true or above criticism. And so that that's kind of how I approach wokeness is, it's just any other I see it as an ideological thing. I see it as being in line with like, being the children being the child of like, Judith Butler, and, and Bell Hooks, and all of those people. It is interesting. Yeah, yeah, go on. Go

Seth Moskowitz 24:41
on. Sorry. I was gonna say, it's interesting, because I think the vast majority of people, I actually think I just I agree with you, actually. But I think the vast majority of the people who we would call woke would have no idea who any of those thinkers.

Stephen Bradford Long 24:54
Yes, I agree. Most, I think most people have generally no idea about the intellectual roots of what they believe, is like as a general. So, you know, I, I'm at the point where I try really hard in my own writing to not use the word woke, because as much as I might wish people would not interpret it as an insult. Human nature is such that that there are certain people in my audience who will see me use the word woke, and just instantly not read any further. And so it's like, I have to choose my battles. And so instead I try to address specific ideas, and maybe not place a label on them, like what is what is the what is the specific idea that I am analyzing, I will just discuss the idea itself or the policy itself, and maybe void the labels. Yeah,

Seth Moskowitz 25:58
I think that's that's the way to go. I guess, when I was writing a piece other day, and I also really try to avoid using that word, one, because it's, as we've shown for the last five minutes, it's so vague to the point of almost being useless in, in using a piece of paper, I get publication where you can't explain what you mean. And so what I what I opted towards was the progressive turn in 2014, or 2015, towards focusing on identity and oppression. And I think that's something that is not derogatory, it's not it's kind of neutral. It's true.

Stephen Bradford Long 26:33
It is a it is a true, it is a true statement. And, you know, I guess my view of it is, there are, let me see if I can contextualize this, I recently read a fantastic illuminating blog post from several years ago by slate star Codex, where he defines what he calls mistake theorists versus conflict theorists. And I don't know if you're familiar with with this, but I found it incredibly helpful, where he described mistake theorists as believing that all of the worst things in the world come as a result of mistakes, and that we all are standing around kind of the the surgery table, the operating table, trying to fix our mutual patient, the state, the society, and some people will have good ideas, some people will have bad ideas, we all have to weigh the evidence, we figure it out together, some people will be wrong, some people will be more wrong, some people will be less wrong. But we all have to do it together. Right. And so it's it's a matter of sharing of evidence and weighing of evidence and hearing the different sides and hear it and so on and so forth. My instinct is hardcore mistake theorist. That is where I think that's my personality. And that tends to be where I live in my work is mistake theory. Conflict Theory is the belief that all of the bad things in life come from a battle between good people and bad people. And between power disparities, which means that conversate that the weighing of evidence and conversation, they could be helpful, but they will ultimately not advance the cause of justice. And so you know, he uses the example of, well, if you're talking to your boss, and trying to negotiate a raise, there's, there's going to be an innate power imbalance there. And if he is trying to throw out, you know, evidence based reasoning for why you shouldn't get a raise, well, he's probably just trying to work against you because of that power dynamic. And so he what he does really brilliantly in this post is he demonstrates how both mistake theory and conflict theory have serious blind spots within specific circumstances. So and I tend to lean towards mistake theory, on average, being the more productive approach to navigating life in the world. But power differentials do exist. And so maybe sometimes conflict theory is necessary. But what he really gets at is the fundamental clash between these two worldviews. And I think that this is part of the fundamental clash on the left, you know, there are there is this fundamental division in the left, I think, between what I would call the liberals and the leftists, between between the people who are mistake theorists and the people who are conflict theorists that we just cannot get along. And I think that it is kind of a fundamental personality difference. And I forget goodness, I forget how I got on this tangent. I was trying to explore something but I, I completely lost track of what I was. Yeah.

Seth Moskowitz 30:03
I think the thing that jumps I think one of the pieces of our political conversation that is really that everything is sort of revolving around is who is allowed to speak? And when are they allowed to speak? And I think the the dichotomy you were going at there, between mistake theorist and conflict theorist is applicable there, because something that I think is fundamental, and that I think you think is fundamental is that we should all be able to put our ideas, our ideas out there, discuss them, if you have a bad idea, you might get pushed to the side, you're, you'll lose other people, you won't win the argument. And I think that's what the mistake theorists would be advocating for is Yeah, would want versus the conflict theorists would say, we know the good ideas, we have the answers. And if you disagree with us, we're not going to have an open discourse. We shouldn't we shouldn't have discussions and let the best ideas win. Because then the bad ideas might be harmful and might hurt some people. We need to shut down the bad ideas, we need to make sure that they're not on Twitter, that they're not on podcasts, that they're not out there because they cause literal harm in the world. And I think that's a serious dividing line between the left. And I think it's something that's actually starting to split the traditional political divides that we have, and that we're familiar with. So I think, when I

Stephen Bradford Long 31:25
agree, any team on the right as well, I mean, that definitely on the right, as well, that that split is happening to Sorry, go

Seth Moskowitz 31:31
on. Yeah, no, I agree. I think it's splintering a lot of the political coalition's that we're familiar with this idea that you need to be able to have discussions and find the answers versus somebody on your team has the answers, and everyone else needs to listen. I think that's something that's going to continue dividing our politics both on the left on the right and creating interesting coalition's between the two.

Stephen Bradford Long 31:53
Yeah, yeah, well, I didn't mean to turn this conversation this into a conversation about wokeness, and the left and so on. But part of the reason why I the left and and what one might call the woke mob, is because that is the point for me at which I am tempted to turn into a reactionary. And I think that in the past, that has been true. And I think part of the reason for that is that anger is an incredibly unreliable emotion. And so if I just follow my anger, my anger is irrational, my anger is not a reliable intellectual force. And I will get angry about different things depending on who I perceive to be my in group and out group and so on. And so if I were to follow my anger, I think that I would follow James Lindsey down the rabbit hole I because at the end of the day, I am still more angry about the people on Twitter who cancelled contra points than I am about whatever you know about climate change, even though I know intellectually, that climate change is a far more horrific challenge that that, you know, many times to whatever power more of a problem than online Kancil culture but anger is irrational anger is not a valid litmus test of what is true. And so if I were to just follow my anger, I think that I would follow James Lindsay. But if I follow rationality, if I follow those first principles that I have to remember, Oh, the Supreme Court just fucking robbed, judo, the Supreme Court just just, you know, who are who are run by, you know, awful theocrats just robbed every person in this country with a womb of their potential autonomy, right? That is a way bigger issue. I don't feel it as much because I, I don't have a womb. And so anger is an unreliable emotion for politics is what I'm saying? Because that makes sense. Am I making any sense? I'm just verbally processing this as, as we're on mic together.

Seth Moskowitz 34:18
It doesn't make sense. I don't I don't know what it is. But for some reason I'm drawn to the culture war mutates us to I don't know what it is about. Maybe it's because they are the issues that get at our identity. They get at the core of what it is to be a man on American they about who can talk and who has to listen. There's something about those issues. That is that pulls you in more than tax policy or health care policy. Yes.

Stephen Bradford Long 34:46
Well, yeah, good. Sorry. Gone, gone. No, I

Seth Moskowitz 34:49
don't know what I think. And I think that's really where in a lot of ways the dividing line and politics is, is coming to be set today. So I think that is me. We also why we're both drawn to it, because it's, it's the sort of thing that if you're progressive on social issues, then you're on the left. Or even if you want lower taxes, or even if even if you are not so concerned about climate change, so maybe that's the reason why I'm so drawn to it, because it does feel like the thing that sort of splitting apart or politics and I sort of feel like, I need to find out which side I'm on, so that I can choose a team. But I don't think that that's the right way to go like it's so it's so tempting to try to join a team to try to join a club so that you can have your people and have answers that are laid out for you. And so going down to James Lindsay route, like you will have your answers definitely won't be the right ones, the good ones, but

Stephen Bradford Long 35:43
they will be they will be emotionally satisfying.

Seth Moskowitz 35:47
Exactly, you will feel some kind of righteous indignation. And I think that's something that's both the social justice people on the left and the James Lindsay is on the right, they both feel this right, righteous indignation, and the sort of revolutionary aesthetic towards the inside of them that they get so and that that's a good feeling to be, I am so right, and I am on the righteous side of this huge civilizational battle. That's something that probably feels good internally. And it's something that is it pulls me in and it seems like it pulls you in. And it's hard to push back. And so this isn't what the actually a civil civilizational fight. There's more important things going on the Supreme Court or like climate change, or people not having health care. And it's easy to get distracted by these, these issues that feel maybe more important, even though they're not.

Stephen Bradford Long 36:39
Yeah, and I've done a lot of introspecting about why it is that it because it has like this, this cocaine like quality to it, where the culture war stuff can be addictive. And trying to understand why is it that my mind can just get so easily hacked. And as I thought about that I come to I've come to two possible reasons why. Which is one a concept that my colleague John Morehead, who does a lot of interfaith work, talks about and he just he he's he taught me the term heretical disgust and heretical Disgust is a it's a term that came out of religious scholarship to describe the phenomenon in which religious people tend to have a greater level of revulsion and disgust towards people who are technically on their same side, but are not quite like them. And so it's the disgust between Protestants and Catholics. Or it's the disgust between conservative Christians and progressive Christians. They're both technically Christians. But we tend to reserve our greatest level of emotional fervor and disgust for people who are like us, but not quite. And I think that that is part of what I'm experiencing where there's this heretical disgust. There's people who are, in my view, heretics, people who call themselves leftists, but are doing leftism wrong. And I think that that gets under our skin more than anything else. And I think it's just a cognitive glitch. And, and so that has been helpful for me. And then I think the other thing is, the real problems in the world feels so much bigger, and unsolvable. It's like, well, fuck, how do I fix climate change? I don't know, it feels impossible. But you know what I can do? I can go after I can. I can. I can criticize, you know, my fellow leftists who I think are doing everything wrong. And I'm not saying that I shouldn't like I'm not saying that we shouldn't do that there. There has to be because a movement that cannot self correct is a movement that's doomed to failure, a movement that is that cannot examine themselves and be self critical is doomed to failure. So we should do that. But sometimes I wonder if I, if I and others do that, because it it because the big problems feel so intractable.

Seth Moskowitz 39:33
Yeah. And I think Well, the problem with with that is, if you end up spending 99% of your time critiquing your own side and criticizing the left in order to what regardless of what your your goal is, if it's to kind of cleanse your own side or to make sure that everyone there agrees with you. But if in the end what you're doing is you're spending 99% of your time attacking people on the left. Pick, are you are you really Still, functionally on the left. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So I think I also feel that instinct. And I think it's just something that is ingrained in us to try to make sure that our tribe is pure and that our tribe agrees with us. But I don't think that's one realistic. It's such a diverse society where you have to make coalitions with people. And in order to actually accomplish anything, you're not going to be able to root out anyone who mildly disagrees with you. But I think it's something that you need to fight against. And another consequence of that is I think that that is actually something that ends up creating the Tim pools, the James Lindsay is the reactionaries is, is that at one point, they were on our side, and then they did one thing that kind of made people who are on this on our side angry, and then they got dogpile, they got attacked, and then they took a second and they would thought, Whoa, is Is this really my my team that is attacking me for maybe one heretical idea if it's on, particularly if it's on an issue of social justice, or race or gender, and they get dogpile for disagreeing with the vast majority of people on their side. And they think, okay, maybe this isn't my team, maybe I need to move towards the rights. I think that kind of idea that we need to push anybody who disagrees with us out of our side, ends up creating the people that we started off this discussion, criticizing the reactionaries who, who were once claimed to be on the progressive side of the spectrum.

Stephen Bradford Long 41:28
Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with that. And I had a conversation with someone actually, who, I think emphasized this were one of the primary readings within my religious community, which is the Satanic Temple is Steven Pinker's the better angels of our nature, and I was kind of grousing over this because, you know, Steven Pinker, he's fine. But there are other ways in which I think I really disagree with him. And there, there are ways in which and I was kind of grousing about that, like, Oh, I wish he wasn't primary reading for tst. I wish, you know, I, you know, maybe it would be better if it was fiction, and so more mythic and, you know, more interpretive. And my friend was just like, why that just creates the purity spiral that you that you're so obsessed with you? Would you rather have a community where we can only read the right books, and where we can only have, you know, where we can only have primary reading that we 100% agree with? Or would you prefer to have a community where the primary reading people think it's flawed, and they can discuss that? And they can have different perspectives on it? Like, which would you prefer? And I was like, good point.

Seth Moskowitz 42:46
Yeah, I think I think it's something that's like, oftentimes, we see it on the left people who have any heretical ideas are pushed out, but I think it's also something that happens everywhere.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:57
I don't think it's just it's human nature.

Seth Moskowitz 43:00
You see me especially, again, we've spent most of our time critiquing laughs, but if you look at the American, right, the exact same thing is happened to even more dramatic effect with Donald Trump, than their one tenant was supporting the president. And that was Billy saying out loud that you thought that the 2020 election was a fraud. And if you don't agree with that, then you are you're heretical, you were unclean, and you were neat. You were a rhino you need to be pushed out of the Republican Party. So I don't think it's something that's only on the left on the on the right only those who Yeah, it's just it's yeah, it's human nature,

Stephen Bradford Long 43:34
all of us are susceptible and it doesn't matter how smart or how rational we think we are, we are all vulnerable vulnerable to these cognitive glitches and no one is above being wrong. And no one is above you know, falling into these cognitive traps in the in the last few minutes that we have. Do you have time we might end up going a bit over and unless you have that's totally fine. Are you okay with that? Okay, yep, yep, no, because I do want to cover these few points at the end of your piece which I found so helpful these various steps to take to avoid the the reactionary trap and you reached out to all of these different figures so you reached out to like Ezra Klein and Matthew Iglesias and so on to get their perspective on how to resist the reactionary trap. And I think these are so helpful. So the first one you have listed here is do not let the illusions of social media trick you. What do you mean by that?

Seth Moskowitz 44:35
Yeah, when you're on social media, the people that you see talking are the most extreme, most radical people and oftentimes the most angry people are out there. And oftentimes, if you're on the left, you only see the people on the left and when you see someone on the right and maybe infuriates you, and the same thing with people on the right if you have cultivated your the people you follow, to the point where you bear Have you ever see someone on the left, on the one hand, you're getting riled up by all these angry people who are on your own team. And then when you see someone who is on the other team, you have this sort of revulsion and instinctual anger towards them. And so I think when you're using social media, you just need to be aware that the people who are on there are oftentimes the most extreme people, whether you're on the left or on the right, and that the institutions of American politics and of American society don't reflect what you're seeing on social media, particularly in politics, social media slanted towards the left, and our political institutions, including the Senate are oftentimes slanted towards the right. So if you're concerned with the progressive ideology, and what we call wokeness, taking over, you need to take a breath, realize that social media is far more to the left than almost everyone who's out there walking around in real life, and that our political institutions are actually even further lean, tilted further towards the right than everyday society.

Stephen Bradford Long 46:02
Absolutely. Yeah. And that's, that's one of the things that's so hard about social media is to it makes understanding the scale of anything, so hard to figure out it because it's like this, this carnival mirror maze, where trying to figure out the scale of any problem on social media feels impossible.

Seth Moskowitz 46:24
I very much agree. And I think it's illustrative of that is how the people the big issue on the right, the cultural right, and right now is the is the teachers in schools, theoretically, telling students about inappropriate subject matters related to sex and gender. And you see, like one video happening somewhere on Twitter from some random school, and it's something that might be inappropriate. But the way that Chris is some of the activists like Chris Ruffo, and James Lindsay are presenting this is as if all throughout American schools, children are being taught inappropriate things about sex and gender by what they termed them groomers and just have completely twisted this thing that maybe there was one inappropriate video somewhere on the internet, and made it seem like this is on the scale of happening in your local elementary school. So I think that I agree with you getting a sense of scale for if these are problems house, if they are a problem, like how serious are they is extremely difficult with social media.

Stephen Bradford Long 47:32
Yeah, and then lives of tick tock will collect you know, these, the tiny handful of teachers doing something weird. And the whole universe freaks out. And then you know, go yell at teachers at at a town hall meeting or whatever. And it is just not ideal, it is not an ideal situation, because it's totally disproportionate to reality. And yeah, so the only thing that I know to fix that is to just spend less time on social media, like I, I don't know how to fix this illusion, other than to just take everything I see on social media with a grain of salt to be skeptical of everything that I see on social media, and it doesn't matter what it is, be it a video of some police brutality, to some some teachers saying something ridiculous. I mean, I need to be I need to take it seriously, but not credulously. To quote Dan Savage. And get skepticism

Seth Moskowitz 48:46
seems like the best starting point for him essentially any trend or picture whatever you see on social media, just like six skepticisms seems like the right starting point, which is kind of an unfortunate way to view the world. Yeah. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 49:02
I fucking hate it. But you know, I so I have so many friends who I know to be good people who I know to be and everyone listening will know who I'm talking about. It's Lucian grieves, who, when he was in his early 20s said, so he's the founder of the Satanic Temple, by the way. And he, when he was in his early 20s, he said some unfortunate stuff on a podcast about Jews. And yeah, it was fucking gross. In my opinion. It was unacceptable. He's in his 40s now and but the it and he and I know him to be incredibly committed to progressive values and to universality and equality and I know him to in no way, be a prejudiced person and you And yet this thing from 20 years ago, will just keep resurfacing. And and people will build these narratives and these, for lack of a better term lies about Lucien Greaves. And I've just witnessed the way in which the, you know, lies spread so fast on social media, and how delusions spread so fast on social media, and they can seem so convincing where it's like, you hear an audio clip of someone and you're like, oh, okay, there, there it is. He must be a monster. But it's, but it's always more complicated than that. And so I guess watching how some of my friends have, have had just horrible untruths spoken about them online, has really made me skeptical about everything I see on social media.

Seth Moskowitz 50:56
Yeah. And I think, both in that specific circumstance, and in general, like, I don't think this is a problem that's going away one because I don't I don't know how there's a recording from like, I guess, I guess 20 years ago, that makes sense. But now anybody who is any prominent person is going to have videos from when they were stupid, and 15 Oh, my God, yes. Whether it's like just like messing around with friends, or they're on a podcast and said something that's either at the time was unacceptable, or because things are changing so fast, like what's acceptable to say, is changing so fast, that something that was acceptable in 2014, could now get you in big trouble. And I think, like, what's important is to have a sense of perspective about one was what they said acceptable at the time. And if it was, then maybe you need to understand that the progression that's happened since then, and then to if it wasn't acceptable about at a time, you can condemn that person who they were 20 years ago. But if they've changed, and if they've talked about it, and if they've grown, then it doesn't make sense to keep holding this thing over their head, and bringing it up. 20 years later, when you're a whole new person, 20 years down the line, what matters is what you're thinking and saying today or yesterday. Not in 2002 1002 when George George Bush was president,

Stephen Bradford Long 52:15
it's the eternal nightmare for me, because there are there's hundreds of hours of me online, just running my fucking mouth. And I'm like, I have no clue what what I say, I have no clue what I said last year, I have no clue what I said five years ago, like, it's hundreds of hours. And so I'm just waiting for someone on Twitter to just clip something that I don't even remember. And and post it and be like, you see this? He's He's defending something, you know, horrific or whatever. But,

Seth Moskowitz 52:51
yeah, well, if that happens, just, I guess, the only thing you do is if it was wrong, say, Well, that was wrong. I don't believe that now. Yeah. And if you still believe it, you defend it. And I think it sounds like your your supporters are quite understanding of oh, they're very thoughtful. Yeah, yeah. And you're very

Stephen Bradford Long 53:08
humane. And when they and when they do disagree with me, I love my Discord server, because they will, they will sometimes push back. And that's great. That's what a community is for, they will push back on me, but they will always do so in such a thoughtful and compelling way. And I'm in so I'm really, really proud of of the community that has grown up around this podcast. So yeah, that that's great. The second one you have here is learn to recognize and avoid us versus them thinking, What do you mean by

Seth Moskowitz 53:39
that? Yeah, I think that one's pretty key to this, I think, if you if you end up seeing a world divided between good and evil between us versus them, then you end up one, not being able to think through and really critique your own ideas, and think why do I believe the things I do? What are the real rationales behind my political philosophies, and, and ideas. And then on the other hand, you start to see anybody who's on the other political team, as evil or as a danger and any other ideas as the same as inherently something that you need to be on defense from not potentially either learning from or using something to strengthen your own beliefs and your own ideas. So I think there's really nothing good that that can come from this belief that I'm on this team, they're on that team, I'm good, they're evil. I think what you need to be doing is trying to be picking apart the arguments that people come in with and thinking through the ideas that you hold, and the principles that you value. And using the people who you might see on other political team not as not not as something that you need to fight but it's something that you need to learn from, whether it's their ideas that might be good and might be teaching you that you're wrong. Um, or as learning, or something you can learn from to say, Okay, I now I know why my ideas right and their ideas wrong because I've heard their argument, and I'm coming back believing in my ideals even stronger. So I think in general, this idea that they're on one team, I'm on the other end, they need to be fighting them at every step of the way is is no good.

Stephen Bradford Long 55:21
Yeah, yeah. And you know, this kind of hits on something that is a continuous pet peeve of mine. So my day job is I manage a grocery store, in an industrial district in western North Carolina. And having an us versus them mentality that you so often see online, offers absolutely nothing to working class people who by merit of the fact that of their station in life, they, they and I cannot self select our peers. And so I so often feel like the the us versus them, never give an inch, never be around people who disagree with you, there is a class element to that, because it's very convenient for people to say that when they have a cushy desk job, and everyone and they have the privilege to select their ideological peers, people who work at a McDonald's, people who work at a fast food place people who work at in a factory or in a grocery store, they don't have the they can't do that. And so we have to figure out how to get along with each other. If I'm, I'm on the floor with with someone who is a raging Trump conservative. And on the other side is, you know, an anarcho syndicalist being being told online to to not ever engage in conversation with people who are like you. And I do think that that is a common refrain in a lot of different places of This Is War. Well, that, that offers nothing of value to so many working people who don't, we don't get to choose who our peers are. And so I have to figure out how to talk to them, I have to figure out how to share a space with them. If I don't, then I lose my job. And and so I see this, this narrative in certain parts of the left of, you know, to, to share a space is to platform a bigot. And I'm like, tell that to someone who is working, you know, till midnight, every night cleaning floors with someone they might fundamentally disagree with, it offers nothing of value to them. Does that make sense? I it's something that continually drives me crazy.

Seth Moskowitz 57:58
Yeah. I mean, if you adopt that mindset of us versus them, you're going to be completely unable to function out in the real world. Yes, you might be able to be good on Twitter. But if you Yeah, if you go to the grocery store, and you see someone wearing like a Trump t shirt, or a Biden t shirt, and he or you have to work with them or engage with them, you're just gonna be totally unequipped to deal with actually everyday situations. So yeah, I agree with that. It's a problem both ideologically and practically,

Stephen Bradford Long 58:30
the metaphor that I keep using is I don't know if you're familiar with CS Lewis, but he wrote a book called The Great divorce and, and the concept in the great divorce is that there's a bus that goes from hell to heaven. And hell is like this. This a smoky immaterial place, and the ghosts go from hell to heaven. And it's like a whole religious allegory thing. And in heaven, everything is so real and so solid that the blades of grass cut the ghosts feet from hell, it's like they are so immaterial. And heaven is so solid, that the blades of grass that they cannot even walk on the grass because they're so kind of fragile and immaterial. And that's really, I think, a good metaphor for going from the internet to reality. Going from the internet to the world. It's like if if we spend all our time on Twitter, in our political spaces online, that will not equip us for engaging with peers in a work environment.

Seth Moskowitz 59:34
Or, or with families. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 59:38
exactly. And so it's like the blades of grass become so sharp that they cut us and we become so on resilient. Let's see, the the the next item you have here is be skeptical of convenient narratives. What do you mean by that?

Seth Moskowitz 59:53
Yeah, I think this is what we're talking about. One is if you're on one because if you're on social media You're gonna see a lot of things that happen to align with your political ideology. Those could be right, they could be wrong. But if you're going to instinctively just go along with whatever you're See, you're going to end up believing a lot of things that are wrong and are straight up just incorrect. So I think, like we were saying is one when you're on social media, it's better to be skeptical of everything that you see, too, is that if, if you are so deep in your political beliefs, that everything just happens to align so nicely and so perfectly, that there's no complicated questions in the world that everything is kind of my side, my side, good. They're sad that I have the answers, obviously. And they're just not thinking or they're evil. That is, that is just not a true reflection of how the world works. So if you've see yourself falling into these convenient narratives, or thinking about the world in a way that it's easy and not complicated, and that the answers are obvious, then you're missing something, you need to be thinking about this in more detail. The world just isn't that simple. So there's, that's generally what I was thinking of when I when I wrote that is one when you're when you're on social media and talking to people in politics, be skeptical, when you hear something that happens to align with your ideology, because one it could just be conveniently placed in front of you due to the algorithm and it could be incorrect to is it might just mean that you have an overly simplistic worldview and aren't thinking through the issues to the extent that you should be.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:01:27
Yeah, to quote, Cal Newport. And I wrote a blog post about this. I'll, if I remember to, I'll post this in the show notes. Don't be an intellectual groupie. He says, most people online on Twitter are intellectual groupies, and they don't actually seriously engage with the content of said philosopher with Noam Chomsky, or whoever on the right or whatever. Instead, it is intellectual groupie ism, and you're either in or you're out. And and the answer to that is, instead, read the best work for and read the best work against read a book that is the best argument against a point and read the book, that is the best argument for the point and let those clash in your psyche. Let it fuck up your life, let it kind of let it go, let it mess you up, let it and let your roots grow deep as a process. And that's where wisdom comes from, is is letting that clash take place and and it will absolutely fuck up your your it will it will kind of ruin your life online. But it's worth it. And I see that as the antidote to convenient narratives. And then the next one you have is avoid the zeal of the Convert. What does that mean? Yeah, what that

Seth Moskowitz 1:02:45
means. So there's this tendency when people join a new religion or join a new group, that rather than becoming just a traditional member of that group, they become the most fervent believer in it, they become the radical. And so this is what we were talking about with James Lindsay and and other people were talking about on social media is that they were once on the left Dave Rubin, they great executive group. Yeah. Dave Rubin, Tim Poole. All these people who Yeah, were once theoretically progressives are on the left, and then swapped over to the right, sort of sublimated skipped the middle ground and kind of just went straight from progressive to far right reactionary. They fell into this trap, where they became the most fervent believers in their new ideology. And so that's that was my ways of thinking, my thinking in this is that it's good to change your mind. And it's good to think through issues. And if you, it's always good to exchange error for truth. And if you do that, then you should hold on to the truth. But it doesn't mean that you should become the most radical, most extreme, loudest person that you can be just because you think that you've found this new truth that is more representative of the world.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:03:57
Absolutely. And then the final point you have here is take seriously the possibility that you are wrong. I think this is pretty self explanatory. But but explore that for for us.

Seth Moskowitz 1:04:09
Yeah, I think that one if if everybody or if these people who have fallen into the reactionary trap, didn't just sneer at the people who disagreed with them didn't just mark control on social media in Syria took seriously the possibility that their critics had a point. And we're willing to think through those points. And we're willing to question the way that they believe that maybe they'd end up climbing out of the trap. And also just it's good advice for everybody. Just, I definitely don't know everything. And when I say I've changed my politics, pretty radically it sounds like you have to some extent over the past four years. And this idea that you're right, that you have all the answers right now and that in five years, you won't feel differently. It's just an intense amount of hubris and and unrealistic to the point where we all should just be always quiet. shooting, and then asking if maybe we have this one wrong.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:05:04
Yeah, you know, one of the things that I find really helpful is to just think back on my timeline. And think about all the things I once believed, that I now think are wrong. And it is the majority, like I use, I used to be a fundamentalist Christian, I used to believe gay marriage was wrong. I used to just all of these all of these various things from philosophically to politically to, and I've been all over the political map I've been from from right to left over the course of years over the course of figuring out what I believe and the obvious pattern that emerges from that, is that I am, is that my track record is that I am wrong way more often than I am, right. And so the question then becomes, okay, well, what are the underlying principles that are guiding this process and to focus and double down on the underlying first principles? And even those, you know, aren't above reproach, we should examine those first principles. But to think really critically about what are the first principles that guide my beliefs? And that is, and I find that a really helpful process? And to just remember, like, yeah, my track record is that I'm wrong way more than I'm right. Maybe a bit of humility is an order.

Seth Moskowitz 1:06:36
Yeah, me too. I think like, I think back to when I started college in 2013. And then I was pretty far on the left in the social justice area in 2014, and 2015, when that was when the progressive coalition was kind of making that turn, I was fully on board with that. And so yeah, it's it's easy to look to think like, No, I have the answers now. But I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people who look back a decade, and will see that their politics were completely different, or that they changed their mind on at least a few things. And if they haven't changed their mind on a few things, that's also somewhat concerning. Yeah. So

Stephen Bradford Long 1:07:14
I'm very worried about anyone who is beating this the exact same drum that they were like five years ago, like that's, that's worrisome.

Seth Moskowitz 1:07:24
Yeah, there's something that's like, there's definitely been new, like, You should have thought about this in a new way, or talk to people who maybe made a good point. And there's something going on, if you're not changing your mind at all. So I think there's a healthy balance between the two, but overall, like, none of us have all the answers and we should be learning from each other and asking questions and pushing each other and pushing ourselves to be seriously taking the possibility that we're wrong as something that that definitely could be happening.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:07:53
Yeah. And talking is a form of thinking, sharing, sharing and community as a form of thinking. And we need each other to do that, that collective thinking we're kind of like ants, we're really fucking stupid on our own. But, but when we work in a community, and and that community has some push and pull and tug and friction, that is how we get to solutions. I'm a genuine believer in that and you know, this just happened a while ago where I people on my Discord will remember this, this was a week or two ago, I shared an article about the DI D dissociative identity disorder craze on Tik Tok, and I posted on posted it on the discord server. And I read and I was like, Oh, this is this is cool. I like this. This is an interesting critique. But then my readers pointed out some not not problems with his analysis of the DI D craze, but some of the other attitudes that the author was slipping in and, and kind of how they weren't solid. And I was like, Oh, you're right. And I'm so glad that I took the risk to share this publicly. Because if I, if I'd kept this article privately to myself, then these flaws in it might not have ever come to the fore for me. And so thinking and public is incredibly scary. It's incredibly hard, especially, you know, in the age of social media, where you're constantly in terror of your life. So each time I hit publish on a blog or podcast, I'm like Jesus Christ. And is this is this the end? Is this it? And it never is because my audience is awesome. But it's necessary because that act of thinking in public, and that push and pull, think talking is a form of thinking talking is how we come to truth, which is why I always beseech my listeners for for grace, to have grace on me if I say something stupid, but to not withhold critical To them, and why I am always willing to extend a certain measure of grace to others if they, if they happen to say something stupid online, because I'm like, maybe they have to say the stupid thing. Maybe they have to say the stupid thing in order to get past it. I think that's just how humanity works. We are a collective species. And we think, in groups, we think together through language, and through words, and writing and friction and response. And if we don't do that, and we if we don't allow the grace for people to say some stupid things, every now and then, like, my audience has the grace for me to say stupid things, then we never learn.

Seth Moskowitz 1:10:41
Yeah, and I think there's like this. People, like, we've even complained about social media and the way that we're all so connected. But on another plane, like you, there's this amazing hive mind out there. And I want I one brain here. And there's millions of people out there who are smarter, and have different ways of looking at problems. And why would I ever want to just like, wall myself off and isolate myself to one brain, when there's like millions and millions of them out there who have completely different, like, life experiences, education's like obviously, that I'm going to be smarter and better at thinking if I'm willing to interact and engage and pull ideas from other people, rather than just relying on one brain. It's the same reason that we we read philosophy and read history is because other people have things to teach us. And just this idea that we have all the answers is going to lead us to some pretty dark places.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:11:39
Absolutely. And you know, most of my guests as much as I shared on Twitter, the vast the vast majority of my guests come from Twitter. And so it has it. Yeah, every everything that you just said, Yes, signing off on it. Great. Do you have so so this has been a great conversation, and I so appreciate you taking the time to hang out. And you seem like a great guy. And you're welcome back anytime.

Seth Moskowitz 1:12:09
Thank you very much. Yeah, I feel like just having having to think through the ideas in person. And having somebody push you in different directions that you've never gone is extremely helpful. So yeah, I'd love to come back. Just one because it helps me think through the issues too, because I enjoyed chatting with you. And three, because I'll have to have to engage with some of your listeners, because it sounds like you've built a really good community here. And I think that's something that's rare and hard to find. So I appreciate I appreciate you inviting me on.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:12:41
Awesome for people who want to find your work. Where can they do that?

Seth Moskowitz 1:12:45
Yeah, so they can follow me on Twitter at SK Moscowitz. Mos COVID. Witz, they can also sign up for persuasion. We're on substack if you just go to Google and type in persuasion, substack you'll find this and then they can also email me if they want. My email is just set Moscowitz zero@gmail.com.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:13:07
Is that the same email address that I reached you out?

Seth Moskowitz 1:13:11
Yes, yeah, you can put it in. I'll put it I'll put it in

Stephen Bradford Long 1:13:14
the show notes. You're taking your life into your own hands doing that but you very brave

Seth Moskowitz 1:13:22
email me if you think I got anything wrong. Or if you think I was shabby on my thinking on anything. I'll be happy to talk and think through it better.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:13:32
Awesome. Yeah. And everyone go Go subscribe to persuasion i It's a it's a really cool platform. And they have all kinds of really interesting thinkers there. All right. Well, that is it for this show. The theme song is wild by eleventy seven. You can find it on Apple Music, Spotify, or wherever you listen to music. The show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long and it is supported by my patrons@patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long as always, Hail Satan. And thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-ST Psychopathy and Compassion FINAL9mwo9

2022-10-11T08:06:11Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

ST_Psychopathy_and_Compassion_FINAL9mwo9
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, person, emotional, empathy, tst, psychopathy, compassion, emotional empathy, satanic temple, psychopath, cognitive empathy, feel, friends, antisocial personality disorder, sociopath, hear, conversations, life, behavior, emotionally
SPEAKERS
Will, Dex Desjardins, Stephen Bradford Long

Will 00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast. Hey, I'm Will and they call me the doctor. And I'm Joe, the maestro, we host a podcast called common creatives, where we break apart the art, we love to see what makes it tick. Basically, we give you the definitive take on whatever or whoever we're discussing, you don't need to go anywhere else. So check out common creatives wherever you listen to podcasts.

Stephen Bradford Long 00:32
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long, and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com. And as always, this show is brought to you by my patrons. My patrons are my personal lords and saviors they ensure that I can bring you interesting content and fascinating conversations every single week. So for this week, I have to thank Bridget, Reverend Jayden, and Greg Rogers. Thank you so much. I truly could not do this without you. There are other ways to support the show, though. And one of the best ways is to leave five stars on either Spotify or Apple podcasts that tells our digital overlords that this show is worth sharing with others. So I will read a quick five star review on Apple podcasts. This is from a reviewer in the United States a name that I will not attempt to pronounce. And they say new TST member. I'm so glad I came across your work and podcast. I'm a new member and deciphering books, articles, interviews, etc. to really find my place is a little overwhelming. And the content here is really helpful. So I'm incredibly glad that the content here has been helpful. And of course, we don't just cover Satanism, we also cover all kinds of other stuff. All right, well, with all of that finally out of the way, I am delighted to welcome Dex to the show. How are you?

Dex Desjardins 02:12
I'm doing well. Thank you. How are you?

Stephen Bradford Long 02:14
I'm great. So we are colleagues in the Satanic Temple. We see each other on a near wait near weekly basis. We work on ordination stuff together. But I wanted to have you on the show not to talk about Satanism, although that might come up over the course of this conversation, but to talk about your fascinating recent coming out. And you've written incredibly movingly about this on your website. And your writing. And your conversations about this have just been so interesting that I wanted to have you on the show as a friend to talk about this because it's such a misunderstood subject. So you recently came out as someone with antisocial personality disorder? Yes. So first of all, tell us some about who you are and what you do. And and then we can get into some definitions.

Dex Desjardins 03:12
Yeah, sure. Dex Desjardins, I'm a minister with the Satanic Temple. I'm a member of the ordination Council which oversees the development and administration of the ordination program, among other things. We've been working with Satanic Temple for a long time. I was co founder of our Albany chapter now. CONGREGATION I worked I was served on international council. I've just been doing various things over the past six years.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:38
Yeah. So and you've been part of TST way longer than I have. I think I joined in 2017. But you, you've been around, and for people who are new to the show, TST stands for the Satanic Temple, but like you've been around since like, what 2015? Or 20? Yeah, yeah.

Dex Desjardins 03:55
I joined the week after the unveiling, which was July 2015. I, in fact, that was that was sort of the impetus for joining was learning about that event. And then, you know, I had heard of the Satanic Temple before, but not in any real depth. At that point, I was already dabbling and Satanism had been for some time, but the existing groups didn't really speak to me. And after the unveiling, and I had a chance to really look into, let's say, 10 examples, you know, beliefs and whatnot activities. I was like, okay, yeah, this seems like a cool group. And the rest was history.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:30
Yeah. And the unveiling being the unveiling of Baphomet. Is that right? The our Baphomet statue?

Dex Desjardins 04:35
Yep. When it was first unveiled in Detroit, and there was a big event to celebrate there is

Stephen Bradford Long 04:39
there is a big Bach and Alia, to celebrate, I'd be fascinated to hear how TST in particular kind of intersects how Satanism intersects with your experience of antisocial personality disorder. But before we get to that, what is antisocial? personality disorder.

Dex Desjardins 05:02
So antisocial personality disorder, or ASPD, as I'll probably be shortening it, as we as we talk is the clinical diagnosis, that's given to people who are colloquially known as psychopaths and sociopaths. So, psychopathy is not an organic disease, the way that say, you know, pancreatic cancer or measles is, you know, there's not a specific cause you can point to, there's not a specific regimen of treatment that's known to cure it, or to prevent it in the first place. So when I'm talking about this, I'll be talking largely in terms of manifestations instead of symptoms. That's my own term, it's not a clinical term, but I find it applies better. So basically, you have antisocial personality disorder, when over the course of many years, you exhibit certain symptoms that are defined as psychopathy in nature. So these are this is including things like not experiencing emotional empathy or experiencing it to a much lower degree than other people, it involves having a shallow emotional effect, or just kind of a narrow emotional range. And I can talk more about that later as well. It can affect interpersonal relationships. So someone's ASPD is much more likely to have, you know, a large number of shallow sort of superficial relationships and have a lot of difficulty forming meaningful bonds with people. For some, it's impossible. And for others, it's just far more difficult. And something that's important to recognize about this. And this is true with a lot of neuro divergence, ease and personality disorders, it exists on a continuum. It's a, it's a, what's the word I'm looking for? It's a spectrum disorder. So not everybody is affected as severely as others, and not everybody experiences in the same way.

Stephen Bradford Long 06:55
What struck me when you came out, as someone with a SPD is, and I will admit that this is just kind of the assumption that I had lodged in my mind was like Hannibal Lecter, or, you know, a serial killer as the archetypal sociopath or psychopath or whatever. And I know you to be an incredibly good and compassionate person. And I would describe you as a very good and compassionate person. And we've worked very closely together. And I think that dissonance is what I find so fascinating. because it suggests to me that the reality is very different from the assumption, right? That the reality is very, very different that that real life, psychopaths are maybe a bit more complicated than like the cartoonish caricature that we have of them as almost like these, you know, mastermind, villains. Does that. Does that make sense? And oh, well, well, and have you? Have you dealt with that stereotype since coming out? Like have? Have you confronted people assuming the worst about you because of this?

Dex Desjardins 08:25
Well, so I've definitely encountered some substantial pushback, some of which I could describe as being like, kind of almost angry and not angry at me. I don't even know exactly how to explain it sort of like this outrage reaction, where disbelief, and I think it comes exactly from what you said, you know, you hear about psychopathy. And if you even know the term antisocial personality disorder, it's usually associated with people who do terrible things. It's, it's associated with terrible behavior. And there's a very good reason for that. It's because people who have a SPD, whose manifestations land them in prison, or things like that are the ones who get studied, you know, the people who are kind of quietly existing, and are able to control the manifestations of the disorder or who just have personalities that don't lend themselves to terrible behavior in general, they kind of get missed, you know, so who are the study groups when they're looking at this? It's it's serial killers. It's violent felons. It's it's anecdotal reports of people who were toxic and relationships, and, and that's really all you hear about, and there's plenty of pop psychology books out there that reinforce these stereotypes. You know, you go on Netflix, and I feel like every third show right now is some documentary about a serial killer or something like that. And so, you know, this is this is the impression that media leaves people with, and it's true that those people do exist and they are part of that population of people who have ASPD. But you also have and this has become increasingly recognized now. People who are you know, I'll use the term psychopath. It's sort of a colloquial term. I don't use sociopath, it's so ill defined that it's meaningless.

Stephen Bradford Long 10:06
Is there a difference between those two terms, by the way?

Dex Desjardins 10:10
Sort of so you know, depending on on on the source, there's a lot of disagreement around the nature of ASPD in psychology and psychiatry communities, generally speaking, and this is, you know, again, we're working a lot with colloquialisms here. So, sociopath is generally considered to be somebody who has picked up and learned behaviors over the course of their life frequently as a reaction to trauma or you know, things like that they've they found a way to kind of seal themselves off emotionally, they probably have a lot of other comorbidities that are contributing to troubling behaviors, and the other. Whereas for those who are prone to psychopathic behaviors, they tend to be more inborn. Like you can usually tell pretty early on in life, someone is functioning differently. And that's how I, I generally think about this disorder is it's a different internal processing mechanism than most people have. And I'll talk more about that too.

Stephen Bradford Long 11:07
So colloquially, a sociopath is developed whereas a psychopath is born.

Dex Desjardins 11:13
Yeah, that's, that's sort of the thinking on it. And there's some research, there's some neurological research to back this up. And then of course, there's other traits that are assigned to the to like, sociopaths are generally considered to be more explosive, less organized, have harder times, presenting normally, I guess, you could say holding down jobs holding relationships, they tend to bounce between marriages go in and out of jail, things like that. They're more obvious. And those who would colloquially be described as psychopaths are generally sort of more, they're generally able to function better. And to present, I guess, normally would be the term like, you know, people interacting with me, unless they know me very, very well, generally have no idea. But you know, just as much as I pushed back when the diagnosis was revealed, those who are closest to me, we just kind of nodded. You have that? That sounds about right. And they actually, it's funny. So I've got I've got two partners, Liana and Elise. And the first the first person that I actually broach this topic with was Liana because we live together. And I said, kind of, I've been thinking about this for a while. And then one day said, Hey, do you think I'm a psychopath? And literally, without even stopping to think so? Oh, yeah, definitely. I was like, Okay. Well, that's, that's a pretty big indictment, right there. Maybe this is something worth looking at.

Stephen Bradford Long 12:35
If if your partners are like, yes, without hesitation. Yeah,

Dex Desjardins 12:41
exactly. And, and, Charlize, if I remember the conversation correctly, it was more kind of like, it was sort of like an after the fact, at this point had already gone for some of the diagnostics that they use to diagnose ASPD. And it was, you know, kind of said, like, Yeah, I've seen some things where I kind of could tell that you were a little different from other people. And conversations I've had with other friends and family members they've talked about one of the ones that comes up several times, is that there's a delay in emotional reaction.

Stephen Bradford Long 13:15
So I've noticed that too, by the way, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating.

Dex Desjardins 13:21
And it's and it's a translation delay. So what's happening is, my emotional life is very, very shallow, there's, there's not a ton going on. It takes a tremendous amount of stimulation to move the emotional needle or rattle my cage. And and that's true with most people with ASD. And that's part of why so many of us engage in high risk thrill seeking behavior, it's because you need something to stimulate the emotions to a point where you feel a thing and feel somewhat human. And that's been a big part of my life since childhood. And they don't they don't diagnose ASPD. And children, they start looking at symptoms, usually around age 15, and tend not to make the diagnosis until you're 18 or older. But anyway, yeah, so here's what's happening with that delayed reaction thing. I am looking at a person I'm listening to them speak, I'm thinking about what I know about them in the context in which they're communicating with me, and I'm determining what their emotional status and then I have to figure out how to appropriately respond to that in a way that makes sense to the person because I've got basically two options. I can sit there and be an automaton and not smile and not laugh and, you know, just kind of be flat and boring and seem uncommunicative. Or I can mask you know, masking, you're finding a way to outwardly present in a way that seems what most people would see. Feel is like more naturally human. But when you have to go through a whole process of discerning emotions and figuring out what the appropriate responses, you know, do you smile, do you frown? Do you, you know, give some half assed chuckle at something that said, and so there can be a little delay there, and that delay can be picked up on over time, usually People don't notice it right away, but they start to notice the pattern after a while. And that's and that's what that is. It's this delay in processing where you're going, all right? What's this person thinking? What are they feeling? Okay? What's, what's the appropriate response to this emotion that I'm on perceiving here. And a big part of that is learning, cognitive empathy. And if you had a chance to listen to my December 7, Temple Tuesday service, that the reason I gave that service, it was actually a reaction to the diagnosis. That was the impetus for it. And you know what, when we talk about Satanism, how it intersects, there's a very place where these things collided very, very rapidly when I first joined the Satanic Temple. But anyway, so you know, I've taught myself cognitive empathy over the years I can, I can easily decipher a person's emotional state, I'm not sharing it with them. That's one of the big things that separates someone from as with ASPD, from everyone else, I don't share in people's emotional states, if something terrible happens, I can intellectually acknowledge that I can act with compassion toward them, but inside I'm not feeling it. And to many people, that seems just awful. I mean, for a lot of people, that's the definition of a monster is seeing someone in pain, and not responding to it in a visceral, emotional way. I just don't, it's just it just my brain works differently. And, but that doesn't mean I won't go out of my way to help the person. And that's, I think, where one of the popular notions about ASPD falls flat is this idea that because you're emotionally different, because you're not sharing the emotions of others, therefore, you're going to somehow be a subpar human being, or an actively bad human being.

Stephen Bradford Long 16:41
It doesn't result in Machiavellianism. In other words, it like doesn't equal, it doesn't necessarily equal cruelty. It can, but it doesn't necessarily those. There might be a Venn diagram, but there but one does not necessitate the other.

Dex Desjardins 17:02
Correct. So one of the things that's left out in a lot of discussions about disabilities, mental illnesses, neuro divergence, ease, is the existence of individual personalities, you know, we're all different. And we can all have values, we can all have things we believe in and think are important. And those don't necessarily have to be based off of strong emotional feeling. They can be intellectual. So, you know, when I was a teenager, late in my teens, it's actually probably around the age of 20, I decided that the social contract was a very important thing. Because I felt like, if, if we're in a society that works better, we all benefit, including me, you know, there's a self centeredness to it to a degree.

Stephen Bradford Long 17:40
So just, I am so sorry to interrupt. So, but was that process? A? So it was self interested? Which, of course, it will, I mean, of all, I won't say all, but many of our moral choices, have some measure of self interest in them. And that's true of like, everyone, in my opinion, I think a lot of our moral choices are self interested to some degree, maybe not all of them, altruism does exist, but it sounds like you're also saying that there was an element of this is also good for other people. So there was a consideration for other people. Even if you can't necessarily mirror your their interior emotional experiences is Am I right? About that?

Dex Desjardins 18:32
Absolutely. Okay. And, and we do this cross species all the time, we do not share the exact same emotional life with animals, generally speaking, you know, I mean, sure, your, you know, your cat can be sad or happy, but it's not the same exact thing as what a person experiences, I'm pretty sure. And yet we can act with compassion toward animals, you know, or whatever. I mean, I know people who put googly eyes in their toaster, and they're like, don't fuck with fret, I'll kill you, you know? And that's, you know, you're,

Stephen Bradford Long 18:58
you're describing my relationship with my cats. And actually, okay, you putting it that way, is really clarifying. Because it's like, yes, of course, I can, you know, look at one of my six cats and C distress, I can see distress and I have to decide, you know, and, and, you know, there there are times when I have to take my cat to the vet. And but it takes a while to for me to figure out that they're in distress, and it's like, okay, they're doing this behavior. I have to figure out what's going on, because I want the best for them. But because I just because I can't relate to their specific kind of pain. I don't understand it. I can't feel it doesn't mean that I don't care deeply for them and I want them to be better. Is that like a? Would you say that is a good way of articulating what it's like?

Dex Desjardins 19:51
Yeah, I think I think it's about as close as I can come to a parable that makes sense. And not

Stephen Bradford Long 19:56
to say that we are comparing you or anyone to At, but, but I mean, it's, uh, you know all metaphors have their limitations but yeah, like that makes sense. Like you can care deeply for some for someone, but that doesn't mean that you that you can reflect or mirror their inner landscape.

Dex Desjardins 20:17
Right? Yeah. So you have to find a way to, to communicate to show compassion to find an understanding that works for you. So I think that's the best metaphor I can come up with for it.

Stephen Bradford Long 20:27
That's fast. That's, that's so helpful. Oh, good. Yeah,

Dex Desjardins 20:32
yeah. So I mean, as far as, as far as, you know, going back to stereotypes, and, you know, again, I'm not going to sugarcoat it. A lot of people with ASPD are diagnosed because they're in prison for, you know, sometimes very bad things up to and including serial killers. So we, you know, we can come back to that later and talk about the fact that in many cases, it's, it's, it's the opposite. In many cases, it is a person's capacity for emotion and their capacity for emotional empathy that drives them sometimes to unbelievable violence. So you know, there's, there's not a one to one correlation at all. So I think what the important thing to understanding ASPD and how it manifests in different people, is that if you are a person who is already by your personality prone to disliking people, you're prone to violence, you're an angry aggravated, you know, malcontent, or you've got crossed wiring, and you associate violence with sexuality. The problem with ASPD, then, is the natural breaks that your brain would put on you to stop you from doing terrible things are either broken or malfunctioning. And so those things are, you know, empathy for others, guilt, remorse, impulse control, fear of consequences. And those are the things that for those that ASPD are, are missing or are malfunctioning somehow. So it's easier to engage in really terrible behavior, if that's what you're prone to. If you have ASPD, the Big

Stephen Bradford Long 22:00
Five personality features things like agreeableness, disagreeableness, introversion, extroversion, neuroticism, et cetera, et cetera, I forget all of them. But it's like whatever personality makeup that you have that can compel you towards, you know, being more quarrelsome, or whatever, more aggressive, or whatever. So you can have a very agreeable psychopath. You can have a very agreeable, or you can have a very disagreeable psychopath, but like you can have different configurations of personalities. Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Dex Desjardins 22:39
Yeah, yeah, basically. So it kind of, you know, so for me, manifestations, historically have included things like when I was younger, we're talking about here, behavior that was criminal in nature, like I was shoplifting. By the time I was five, like habitually, wow. Yeah. And, and got caught every single time. It had never dissuaded me. And so you've got two different things going on there. You've got the impulse control issues, that, you know, for a lot of people, they'd say, Oh, I really want this thing, but I'm not going to steal it. Because my brains telling me that's a bad thing to do. You know, you've got the internal braking mechanism that's like, no, stop, don't do the thing. Well, if that's malfunctioning, especially if you're young, you're a child or a teenager, then it's easier to engage in those kinds of high risk behaviors. And then of course, one of the other things that's often missing, for folks that ASPD or is greatly reduced is fear. I am as one therapist but have a pathological lack of fear of physical danger. I'm literally not afraid of anything. And as a result, my body is a carnival of scars and burns and implants and prostheses you're

Stephen Bradford Long 23:46
kind of a like, you're kind of a Frankenstein is kind of awesome. Like you're, you're like a bionic man, like you have you showed me like your iPod that connects to your spine. Like all kinds of amazing shit. Oh, yeah,

Dex Desjardins 24:03
I've got plates and screws and one hand, they've got screws on my wrist, there's a prosthesis in my nose, my front teeth are all fake. And you know, and this happened, because I have habitually in my life engaged in high risk behaviors that, you know, carried substantial amounts sometimes of personal danger, and I just didn't care I wasn't afraid of in the moment, and I didn't worry, I didn't think ahead about consequences. There was no fear of consequences. So if I get injured, I just be like, Yeah, whatever, you know, I'll do it again. No problem. And, you know, when in the more recent work that's been done, studying psychopathy specifically and why psychopathy I'm talking about personality traits that accumulate to this kind of colloquial idea of a psychopath. It's not a clinical diagnosis, as I said before it was starting to find successful surgeons tend to be psychopaths. A lot of leaders successful leaders tend to tend to be psychopath That's, you know, I've had to do work in TSP, where I defy are very good friends from physicians that were incredibly meaningful to them. And they had breakdowns and stuff like that. And I rolled my eyes and sighed heavily, because I was having to hear them make mouth sounds and stuff. And, you know, it's it's not the kindest mindset, and I recognize that, but it made me very effective, and made me very fair as a leader, and people like, absolutely can't stand would come to me for help and TST matters. And I would give them help, because I'm not like, emotionally invested in this, it's just like, Okay, this is my job, this person needs this, I'm going to help them, you know, to the extent that I'm able to stunt people, you know, who just do things that are going to probably get them killed? Chances are they have some, you know, psychopathy going on in their brains as well. And so, you know, and actors, too, so there's, there's a lot of different ways that these personality traits in a person who's not fundamentally violent, or in some other way terrible, it's not necessarily a bad thing it can, it can bring certain very strong benefits. So like, for me, you know, I'm sort of outgoing, friendly person in general. So not having any inhibitions, you know, has allowed me to be basically a social butterfly. Yeah, you know, I'm very good at that I'm very good at cultivating at least sort of superficial friendships. And, you know, having people around who I respect and whose company I enjoy. And if I was a shire person, if I worried about things like other people's thoughts on me and stuff like that, that would probably be a lot harder to do.

Stephen Bradford Long 26:41
Hmm, what got you interested in being tested for antisocial personality disorder,

Dex Desjardins 26:48
I have known for a very long time that I process the world differently for most people. And this was very apparent in my school days, were really the only way I fit in for a very long time was with other social misfits and juvenile delinquents, you know, people who basically were, you know, risk taking narrow do wells, which I was, and then growing up and just kind of realizing more and more as time went on, that I was having to work within the world, and with people I know, differently from how they seem to be interacting with each other. And it got a little lonely for a while, because I started to wonder, you know, am I, it's like, FOMO? Like, am I missing out on all these amazing, rich experiences that other people are sharing together? Is my definition of friendship the same as other people's? Is my definition of love what most other people mean? And not knowing the answer to that? And well, to a degree, I do know the answer. And the answer to a degree is, I am missing out on a lot of stuff, you know, there's people sharing feelings and experiences on a very deep, deep meaningful level that I miss out on, and I can, I can fake it, you know, I can, I can do my best I can have my version of that. But I know that it's different from from what most other people are, are experiencing. So there was this kind of this confluence of different streams of thought I was having in conversations with people. I think the first person, I can actually tell you exactly when it was a very good long term friend of mine, we were talking about something and they literally use the word psychopathy in describing parts of my personality, it was the first time I'd ever actually heard the word spoken out loud, in that context. So that's kind of I guess, what got the ball rolling most immediately. And this happened, I think back in like the spring of 2021. So this is all kind of unfolded pretty rapidly, you know, had other conversations with friends and family, and, you know, they were all kind of have have at least a similar mind. They weren't all using the same terminology. But so definitely this idea that, you know, something was different, you know, that, I tend to speak with a bit of a monotone I my face doesn't emote much rigid body language and stuff like that. So, you know, people just noticed, you know, the people have said, I have callous humor, which is why I tend to only use self depreciate Tory humor these days, because I don't know,

Stephen Bradford Long 29:15
I love your callous humor. I'm personally like, I adore it. But anyway, we can go on.

Dex Desjardins 29:22
Well, thank you. But you know, at a certain point, I realized that things that I thought were funny, were hurtful to other people. And, and this is where that not sharing in the emotional reality can can bite you in the ass. And people think you're a dickhead. So when I realized, and this was a big problem in my 20s, and I kind of got a handle on it by by my late 20s, that I just can't joke about other people because it's not going to come across well, I'm going to be hurtful. And it's not because I just liked the person. It's just that I wouldn't react the way they're reacting. My emotional life is different things that wouldn't faze me can be deeply hurtful to other people. So I just have To avoid those topics completely, because my attempts to be light hearted and funny, when it comes to other people flopped very hard most of the time. So I don't joke around about other people as much as I can avoid it.

Stephen Bradford Long 30:11
That's so interesting, because you just have like a different emotional, social makeup. And so things that wouldn't bother you at all, if they were joking, if they were joked about are deeply hurtful to other people, is what I'm hearing you say? Yeah,

Dex Desjardins 30:28
yeah. And it works both ways. It's not just with negative things. So a couple of really good examples of how my emotional innards work. I had a girlfriend back in toward the end of high school, and, and we broke up and it was fine. We remained friends after where we had a large mutual friends group. And so we saw each other quite frequently in non romantic settings. And it was good, you know, we got along really well. And then she died. And she, she was hiking with a friend, and she fell off a cliff and died. And I got this news that she had died. And they said, Well, how did it happen? And they told me this horrific thing. And I said, Oh, and, and that was it. And they were like, oh, you know, like, where's the rest of the response? I'm like, I have this all I got friends, like, you know, stinks that this person that I liked is gone. I'll I'll miss them. But that was as far as the emotional needle moved. Now, conversely, I was unemployed for a period in my 30s. It was brutal. I mean, it was brutal. I lost a very good job over budget cuts, and found myself basically unhireable in the field in which my expertise was, so I was, you know, on the verge of bankruptcy, the lights had been turned off in my apartment, I was a month away from homelessness, and I get a call from my former employer, and they're like, We found a bunch of money. We'd like you back. So I get this call, while I'm sitting at a bar with a friend. And I know I take the phone call and I hang it up. And my friend says, what was that? And I said, I got my job back. And he's staring at me. I'm like, what he's like, aren't you gonna react? I'm like, Oh, yeah. Wow, great. Now I'm not gonna be homeless next month, you know, but there was there was just not budging the meat, the needle just didn't move. So when that's your reality, were big, big, big things like that. Just kind of, you know, roll right off you. It can be very easy to miss calibrate. Uh, how behaviors will affect other people emotionally? And so you know, how do you deal with this? If that's if that's your emotional life? Well, you you you get into risky behaviors, you're promiscuous, you go out and, you know, perform stupid stunts, you shouldn't do you like riding on top of subways, which I love to do when I lived in New York City, you know, because it was good. It was nice thrill and riding over the Manhattan Bridge on top of the whatever was the J train, I think, you know, ducking under girders and stuff trying not to be decapitated. Yeah, you know. Yeah, or, you know, having several score of sexual partners by your mid 20s, things like that. And these are, you know, their ways of are today like today, like, really extreme emotional kink play that would crush most people. makes me smile, you know, the needles moving? You know, this is cool, huh? Yeah. So it's easy to get into trouble when you need that kind of stimulation.

Stephen Bradford Long 33:24
So do some things move the needle more than others? Like, like, what, what moves the needle for you? And are there some things that move the needle more than others? Like, does does humor move the needle for you? Versus tragedy versus like, what, what, what does and doesn't move the needle? Or is it all just kind of have to be at the same loud volume to move it?

Dex Desjardins 33:48
So something you know, I get too personal, but there's certain like kink plays I indulgent at times that do the job that believe me, for most people would and it's, you know, mental emotional stuff. It's not like, you know, whips and chains, that for most people would just, I mean, they wouldn't even consider it, you know, and for me, I'm just like, oh, this is cool. You know, wow, I'm feeling something neat. So there's that my dad died, you know, that was a crushing blow to me. I felt that one. Very, very strongly, probably more than more than most things I've experienced. And I can form tight, emotionally strong bonds, and, you know, loving bonds, like I have with my partners, and, you know, interactions with them affect me very differently from interactions with most other people. And, you know, even even with them, like if one of them's crying, I'm probably not feeling what they're feeling, I can recognize it. I can respond to it appropriately. I can, you know, display compassion, I can try to, you know, make them feel better and fix the problem. Even in those cases. I think it's a somewhat different experience than what most people would have. But I do you know, loving into reactions with them does definitely move the needle. So there's, it's very complicated.

Stephen Bradford Long 35:06
Yeah, that's what it sounds like. And so you are part of an organization committed to compassion and empathy and to, you know, serving humanity and the outsider, I think that a lot of people would look at the organization that you're in, which is the Satanic Temple, and then look at your diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder and be like, and have the assumption that there is a fundamental conflict there. And I don't think that there is, but in your words, why isn't there a conflict between, you know, being having some, you know, being someone with antisocial personality disorder, who verse, you know, while also being in an organization that is about serving humanity, and and creating a better world, and, you know, pursuing the religious principles of compassion and empathy, showing compassion towards all creatures in accordance with reason? How do those things gel for you, because I feel like to a lot of people listening, they won't.

Dex Desjardins 36:22
In fact, one of the first things that happened after I became actively involved in tst. So before the Albany chapter existed, I was a member of the New York City Chapter, it was the closest one to me, and I would go to every meeting, on a monthly basis, you know, 150 mile drive each way. And one of the very first conversations I had was around the topic of empathy, because it already at that point, I was very well aware that I did not, I don't really have much of a capacity for emotional empathy. It's not completely without, but it's close enough. And I had this discussion with members of the old New York City Chapter, which largely folded, you know, a couple years later, and now is rebuilt, largely with new people, but anyway, and the discussion I had with them back then was, well, empathy and compassion, great, but what if you can't like what if? What do we mean by empathy basically became the conversation and some people respond to that very, you know, with curiosity with open mindedness, and we talked about different manifestations of empathy. You know, I didn't have the terms, emotional and cognitive empathy in my vocabulary yet, so I called them hot and cold empathy. And hot empathy was like, you know, passion, strong emotion, sharing an emotional experiences. And cold empathy, as I was calling it is what you know, I now know is cognitive empathy. It's thinking through and determining appropriate responses to emotional stimuli of others, and knowing how to interact with them in positive ways, even if you're not feeling what they're feeling. And so basically, the conversation ended up in a place of, you know, sure, cold empathy, or cognitive empathy is good enough. But there was a conflict early on that I was kind of like, oh, shit, can I can I do that first tenant? You know? And the answer, I think, is yes. And compassion is an action. Yes. Anything else? Absolutely. Passion is what you do. And you don't really need to have any particular internal mechanism at play to, to display compassion. You can do that. Even if you actively hate the person you're showing compassion toward, you know, that's just alleviating people's distress. Yes. So, you know, I figured between the cognitive empathy and the ability to exercise compassion, but I would, I would not fundamentally have a conflict with the tenants of the Satanic Temple. And I think my experiences have borne that out very well. You know, there's certainly people in TST, current and former, who are not fans of me, and that's okay. But I don't think any of them can say that I'm cruel, or you know, that I treat people badly. I've heard that I'm very cold. I had someone describe me as sinister once. Which, which I thought was actually very insightful. Because what was happening was they were seeing past the mask. They were seeing that there was something else at play here, besides what was being outwardly displayed. And they assumed that that meant that I was up to something nefarious. So while I, while I appreciated the cleverness of recognizing that there was masking going on, they were incorrect. And assuming that that meant that I was up to no good because you know, that then you're just you're just keeping your prejudices on to someone's diagnosis, basically.

Stephen Bradford Long 39:40
You know, yeah, sorry. Go on. Go on. No, no, you go ahead. Well, I've been thinking a lot about all of this lately, actually, since reading, reading your work and reading your posts online and whatnot. And I would type of fie myself as an intensely emotionally empathetic person. And it that has not necessarily been a good thing for me, honestly. And so I feel like I am actually intensely aware of the pitfalls of empathy. And I think that if we emphasize emotional empathy too much, then all we're going to do is just fall down our biases, we are more likely, on average, to feel emotional empathy, for people who look like us, who have our skin color, who are who speak the same language as us, who share the same political views as us. I mean, our empathy, our emotional empathy works along tribal lines, and I have been intensely aware of that within myself, where I am a deeply empathetic person, but I'm, I'm aware of, of how limited my empathy actually is. And I've realized that the antidote to that is what you call cognitive empathy. It's like, it doesn't matter or and even. And even beyond that, even beyond cognitive empathy, simply compassion, it doesn't matter how I feel about a person, the right thing to do is to act compassionately towards them, if someone needs food, we give them food, it doesn't matter if I relate to this person or not, you know, and I so often sometimes feel like we are, by we, I mean, you know, kind of good hearted progressives, almost doing this emotional blackmail, that's, that is like, you know, quote, you know, get up those good feelings of compassion, of get up those good feelings of empathy for people so that you can act. But the problem with that is that empathy as a feeling is unbelievably unreliable. And instead, the thing to do is to just do the right thing, act compassionately, people across the world, who need our help, or in our, or the homeless people, the the unhoused people in our own neighborhood, it doesn't matter if we relate to them, they need our help, period, end of story. So let's give it to them. You know, and so I've been thinking a lot about this. And I think that there is an innate conflict that comes up, because part of Christianity is so much a part of our culture Well, in, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says, If you so much as lust after another woman, you have committed adultery in your heart. If you, you know, have hateful thoughts towards your brother, you're guilty of murdering your brother. So it's like from the very beginning, a lot of the teachings of Christ removed the barrier between your thoughts in your inner life and your outward life. And I think that that is just a catastrophe. And it's like, no thoughts are just thoughts, feelings are just feelings or lack of their love, or just lack thereof. What matters is how we behave. And this conflation of thought and feeling and action, the way Christ conflated them to basically say, you know, we're all sinful and full of shit, it has catalyst, I think that it actually makes it harder for us to do the right thing. I think that makes it harder for us to be good people meaning to behave in a just manner. I don't know if what I just said makes any sense. But these are the things that I've been processing and thinking about while reading your stuff online.

Dex Desjardins 43:56
Yeah, I completely agree. And, you know, people conflate the emotional empathy with with being a good person with doing the right thing. And it's just a false dichotomy. It's

Stephen Bradford Long 44:07
just not true. It's just untrue. It is just not true. And I think that some sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, but like, some of the most intensely gross people I know, are also some of the most deeply empathetic but the reason is because empathy is highly Miss Miss emotional empathy is highly misguided. I think it's valuable to try to learn where other people are coming from to cognitively understand what other people are going through is like we can do that, even if sometimes that emotional experience is is far from us, but we can try to understand it. And that to me, is what that's what you're saying when you talk about cognitive empathy. Am I right about that?

Dex Desjardins 44:56
Yes. It's the it's the act of thinking ruin processing and, you know, determining how to appropriately respond to the emotional states of others. And you don't have to like the person to do it. And you know, as you, as you said, basically, emotional empathy is biased. It's heavily biased. Yes. You know, it encourages people to support their friends, those who are similar to them into dismiss or even demonize people who are different. You know, I mentioned before that empathy and emotion can lead to some of the worst behavior you can imagine. And that's absolutely true. A lot of it's out of misguided empathy. You know, the feeling of loyalty to

Stephen Bradford Long 45:35
white nationalism, white nationalism, white, like white nationalism is empathy on steroids, because it is intense empathy, with the quote, unquote, right White Race to the degree of being unable to connect meaningfully with anyone of any other skin color. But that's those are the lines that our natural empathy works along. It biases us towards people who are like us.

Dex Desjardins 46:02
Yeah, absolutely. It does. I had a thought and I lost Oh, I'm sorry, I interrupt. That's okay.

Stephen Bradford Long 46:07
I think that a lot of people would hear this conversation and would be like, okay, but where does the impulse to do good come from? If you don't feel? The the heartbreak of another human being? The way others do? Or to the level to the extent that others do? If you don't feel that, then where does the impulse to do good come from? Why follow the seven tenets? Why strive to act with compassion and empathy? towards all creatures in accordance with reason? So without, a lot of people might be listening to this and be like, Okay, well, without emotional empathy? Where does the impulse to be good? How can you be good? Without that?

Dex Desjardins 46:56
Well, there's no reason emotion has to drive any of those things, intellect can, you know, values you hold can. So I saw I talked to social contract earlier. And, you know, I strongly believe that's true. I think if we had a world where there was less suffering, and less greed, that all of us, myself included, would benefit highly from that it would be less stressful, you know, people would be, I think, less inclined to criminal activity in general, because I mean, most most, you know, theft and things like that are caused by poverty, you know, not by being a bad person or other factors. So I can recognize the importance of doing good things in the world. Even if I'm not feeling it, I don't, I don't need to have an emotional connection, to understand that something is the right thing to do. And, and I think that's frightfully hard for a lot of people to wrap their heads around, even though I think they do it all the time and just don't realize it.

Stephen Bradford Long 47:54
Yes, I agree. I 100% agree, Sorry, go on.

Dex Desjardins 47:56
An example of of, you know, where, where this fails, because it does sometimes. And you know, I don't, I don't, I would not recommend ASPD to anybody. It's a it's an isolating thing, it makes it much easier to get into trouble. You know, you're missing out on a lot of fundamental human experiences, and they're there, you cannot replicate those things fully. So I decided one day that part of my social contract work would be to volunteer for hospice, because, and this was literally a thought process. I was like, well, someday I'm going to die. And it's, it might suck, you know, the process of, I don't fear death, I don't care about it. It's irrelevant. You know, if I stopped to exist, I won't exist to be aware of it. So who cares? But the process of getting there could suck. It often does, you know, cancer or whatnot, you know, who knows how it's going to happen. And in those times of suffering and fear, you had hope that there's someone who's there to help to alleviate that, I want that I want to have that palliative care if it's needed. And so I'm like, well, and I've always had a strong work ethic. So I was like, well, it's one of those things where, you know, if I'm not willing to do it, then who is the answer? And it was a very stupid thought. It turns out, so I did volunteer for hospice, and it was in hospital setting. So I'm hanging out with terminally ill patients who have got hours left. I mean, I was watching people die left and right. And, you know, like, three or four weeks, which is believed me plenty, and some of them were dying very terribly. I was terrible. As a hospice volunteer, I just couldn't do it. And that's one of those places...

Stephen Bradford Long 49:32
I don't mean to laugh. I'm so sorry. But oh, no, no, no.

Dex Desjardins 49:35
It that's one of those things where you just if you do not have lots of emotional empathy, don't be a hospice volunteer, for God's sake. Don't do literally any other things. I was just got off, but the only the only patient I had any helped at all was someone who I think was a lot like me. They just wanted to do drugs and curse a lot while they died and you're like, hey, brethren, yeah, pretty much And it was fun. I mean, we had a piece of cake. It was his birthday, he died later that night. But, and then again, I was like, alright, well, you know, I guess I'll call the nurse and you know, didn't didn't think any more about it. And, you know, that's one of those things would be like, Oh, here's a little cold hearted. Well, I guess. But you know, it's not because I wanted to kill on the guy, I've just don't share most words, but

Stephen Bradford Long 50:22
it's also worth pointing out, you were there to be with him. I was I was trying my I might be cold hearted. I mean, people could call it cold hearted, but you were also the one there eating cake with him on his last day, like you were doing your best, right. But also know that that makes complete sense that like, if you're a hospice worker, you might want to have a broader, you know, emotional range. However, what you describe just before that is literally like the golden rule, like, well, I don't want to be alone when I die, so I won't, I will be there for other people when they die like that is that's literally like the golden rule, like one of the underlying, most ancient principles of religion and morality, like Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Right? And, and so you can, and you know, you were just talking about how a lot of people engage in a moral way, or, or are concerned about things, even if they don't feel them. I think we all do that to a certain degree, right? Like, sure, there are causes that matter to me, not because I feel them, but because I just know, they matter. I know that unhoused issues, matters. I don't feel it, I can't feel it. i It's so I have been housed my entire life, it's hard for me to empathize. That's okay. I don't need to empathize in order to act on it. Same with same with certain social issues that are just so huge, it's hard to grasp, like, if, like climate change, the consequences of climate change are going to be so gargantuan and so far reaching, if you sit around waiting to feel empathy about all of the horrible shit that's going to happen, you will never stop you, you will never, you'll never be able to get off the ground. And, you know, pull yourself up off of the ground and actually get work done to mitigate that harm. Right? Like, there's some, there's some problems that are just so huge that you can't even like it's a failed effort to try to emotionally contain it.

Dex Desjardins 52:43
Yeah, here's, here's another way of thinking about it. When when you're training to be a doctor, or you know, an emergency medical technician or anything like that, you know, where you are, you are basically the pinnacle of compassion, you know, you are working to save a person's life, to cure their illnesses to reduce their pain. What's one of the first things they teach clinical detachment? Yes, they teach you clinical detachment, because you need to be able to make hard decisions. You can't be paralyzed by how sad you are about a person's situation, you have to be able to distance yourself from that and act. And I think that's part of why, you know, they, they're finding more and more that a lot of surgeons have, you know, high degrees of psychopathy. And it helps to make them successful. I would probably be a very good emergency medical technician, I've never done it. I was a firefighter, though, and I was super good at that, you know, I can make hard, fast decisions and dangerous situations where someone

Stephen Bradford Long 53:40
like me, whereas someone like me would just freeze, like, I would just be like, in the corner crying, like covered in blood and, like unable to function. No, but like, you know, what you're talking about really reminds me with my partner. I don't talk about my family much, but my on the show, but my partner works in suicide prevention, the shit that he sees unspeakably horrific, and he is incredibly good at it. And one of the reasons he's incredibly good at it is because of that detachment that you're talking about, where it's like you can, you can be 100% present in the moment to this person, and then when it's done, it's done. And you move on to the next thing. And, you know, among all the social and because, you know, my partner is a social worker, I hang out with a lot of social workers here in this area, like our friends group is all social workers who work in just unspeakably horrific conditions. I mean, they, they are going into settings that are just unbelievably hard. And what makes them good at it is the ability to be 100% present to the suffering in front of them in mitigating that suffering. And then when it's not in front of them, it's out of their mind, and they can go on to the next thing and be as completely effective as they Ken and, and we might interpret that as cold hearted but at the end of the day, it's alleviating suffering. Like it's it's making the world a better place as a result.

Dex Desjardins 55:10
Yeah. Yeah. And in some in some in some settings, it can be a superpower.

Stephen Bradford Long 55:15
Yeah. And then in other settings, not so much like you did in hospice, but yeah, for sure. It can absolutely be a superpower. And you know, what I think this draws. What this kind of brings home for me is that there are there just, you know, there is not one single ideal type of human being, there are so many different types of human beings on this planet, and, and we all have different attributes, and some of us are really fucking weird. And there is give and take. There is there is there is there is a, what's that? What's the term that I'm looking for? There's a give and take in different situations for those different attributes. And that's fine. That's okay. And if anywhere, Satanism is the best place to explore that, like, we can all be weird, we can all be neurodivergent. And that's fantastic. You know, we can we can kind of understand that different types of people have different strengths and shortcomings and different situations. And that's fine.

Dex Desjardins 56:23
Yeah, absolutely. Do you want to hear about how this diagnosis actually happens?

Stephen Bradford Long 56:27
I would love to hear that. All right.

Dex Desjardins 56:29
So in my case, I sought this out, because I sort of had an inkling of where things were going to go based on the conversations I've been having. And just, you know, I tend to be a self reflective person, you know, I'm very honest about my foibles and stuff like that. And I was curious, I just wanted to know, and to a degree, it was very liberating. Because when you're not sure why your experience is so different than or why people are thinking of you as being different. It can, you know, it's a little obnoxious it can, it can be very alarming at times. So usually people find out because they're in prison, and someone's like, Oh, my God, what's going on with this person, you know, because they've done something terrible. And that goes back again, to where the stereotypes come from. And the stereotypes exist for a reason. It's because, you know, like I said, if you have bad tendencies, ASPD makes it very easy to indulge them. Because you're not experiencing emotional empathy. You don't have the inhibitions most people would have, you don't experience remorse with just like I can talk about later as well. So it's easier to be a shithead if that's if that's how you're inclined to behave. So in my case, I sought it out myself, I went to my therapist, because I have bipolar two as well, and had been treated for that since 2012. And so I, you know, I've had a longtime relationship with a therapist. And I went in, and I just kind of asked, I was like, you know, you've known me for a while you've worked with me in this clinical setting. Do you think there's anything else going on besides just bipolar? And they're kind of like, well, you know, you certainly have, you know, shallow emotional effect and talk about certain things very flippantly that most people would really struggle with psych All right, well, you know, what do we where do we go from here? Is there anything there's like a diagnostic tool or anything we can run? And the answer was yes, there's there's a couple of different instruments that are used to diagnose psychopathy or ASPD. And there it's not just those things alone. It's multifaceted process to arrive at that diagnosis. So the actual diagnostic instruments are the PCL R. And the the I don't actually know how you pronounce it. It's spelled like try pm try trying to remember

Stephen Bradford Long 58:56
so so these are like diagnostic tests like questionnaires that you take Yeah. Is one of them. Is one of them the hair? Yes. The which one is the hair test

Dex Desjardins 59:06
the hair, the hair cycle, psychopathy checklist revised the PCL are that okay, that's one. That's the first one. Okay, got it. Yep. And so they're looking for things like abnormal amounts of fearlessness, disinhibition, neuro emotional banned, lack of empathy or remorse risk, a history of impulsive risk taking behavior, promiscuity, adventurousness substance abuse and a lot of these things fit me very strongly. You know, as you may know, I'm actually in recovery from alcoholism right now. And, you know, that's, that's very common of people ASPD to have substance abuse issues, sometimes for self medication reasons, sometimes because of impulse control, and sometimes for thrill seeking, or some combination or sometimes just addicted to drugs and alcohol. So, you know, it was a combination, so I know it was kind of a party animal, way too late in life. I love drinking. I love Being drunk. Are you?

Stephen Bradford Long 1:00:01
Were you the were you the guy who had always come back for the frat boy parties? Like 20 years after you graduated? Was that you? Were you that guy?

Dex Desjardins 1:00:12
Oh, thank god no, no, no, no, I don't. I've got other stuff going on too. And I get sensory overload very badly. So I tried to avoid saying, yes, yeah, in general, when we recently had a little private event up in Salem, for a friend of ours, and there was there was a few more people there than I was ready for. And we actually took the library headquarters and made it into a quiet space, it was just lit by some artificial candles. And the rule was, you only go in there to sit quietly if you get overloaded. And myself and a couple others spent, you know, a substantial amount of time in there just chillin in the dark and not saying anything, because we bring ourselves down. That sounds like the best party ever. It was really it was it was necessary. Otherwise, I wouldn't have had to like go outside and stamp around a lot. And just be friendly. And I did become unfriendly as the as the as the first few days that went on and got actually pretty actively unfriendly towards some people. I like quite a bit in tst. In person, like with them, and I wish I hadn't, but nothing I can do about it. Now. I did, I did apologize to them. Because I recognize that this was not how I should have behaved.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:01:21
Hey, which is, which is like, for real? I'm just bringing back bringing it back to actions are what matter?

Dex Desjardins 1:01:30
Yeah. And that's that cognitive empathy. You know, you exactly recognize you've done a thing that's hurt a person. And you can go, oh, well, that tough shit. And I didn't feel guilty for it. I just didn't, you know, I just didn't want this person to think or these couple people to think I disliked them. I didn't want them to feel bad. So I took the time to go and actively speak to them. And that's that cognitive empathy, you recognize an emotional state you calibrate a appropriate response? And then you act on it. That's that's the whole point of it, and show that compassion. And I don't have to have an emotional investment and to do that, absolutely. So So yeah, so I sit down I take the the, the the PCL are the one you'd mentioned, which is, you know, a series of questions that are basically phrased in a way to elicit how you would behave in certain circumstances. And then the other one is the triarchic psychopathy measure, or the as I call it, the trip, and it's probably tri pm, I have no idea. And it's sort of a similar thing, they're, you know, they're psychometric instruments. The one you can do yourself the tri PM, you can take online, it's three, and it's self scored, and anybody can do it. And it can be probably fun to do and see, you know, just how much of a psychopath you are. Because everyone's got some level of these things. Like I said, it exists on a spectrum.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:02:50
I want to do that. What is it called?

Dex Desjardins 1:02:53
It's called the triarchic psychopathy measure, or te R I P, M, T, capital T, lowercase ri, capital P, capital m. p. m. I mean, if you search for it online, you'll find it Yeah. How are easy to take.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:03:05
I'll do it. And then in our next meeting, I'll tell you my results. I will tell you how I psychopath I am perfect. Yeah. So

Dex Desjardins 1:03:13
oh, the hare psychopathy checklist revised, the P CLR. is much more complicated. And that has to be scored by a highly trained clinician, you cannot you cannot self administer that one and you cannot cannot self score that one. There's complicated algorithms that go into the scoring of it. And and then and those those but that under that on its own, that's not the diagnosis, then there's also you copy like a extensive social history that's needed. They look at you know, criminal records, if you have one, I don't they have they look at your other mental health history. And the diagnosis is made on the basis of a combination. And part of it is not just that you have these inner workings you also have to have acted in certain ways. So you have to have done the promiscuity not just wanted to have to have done the shoplifting or, or the risk taking things or actively violated the rights of others, if that's, you know, the type of person you are and and the diagnosis is made based on that a combination of those various things.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:15
Does it ever you've talked to some and we should wrap this up soon. We're we're reaching time, but does it ever get lonely? And if so, what is that loneliness? Like, if you could describe it, I know that that's, that's, that's probably too broad to be helpful. Let me see if I can like, Oh, okay. Yeah,

Dex Desjardins 1:04:36
no, it definitely is, you know, when you when you see people having interactions that are deep and meaningful on an emotional level, and you can't partake in those in an authentic way, you know, your options are either just to fake it and I try not to do that. I try not. I try to have authentic relationships, even if they're different. And if you can't partake in those, just like any other thing, you know, you feel like you're missing out. You know, you wonder are your friendships real friendships are your relationships, what everyone else means by them. And, you know, I can tell you that I have a couple of very strong friendships and of course, my actual intimate relationships that are, I experienced profoundly differently from most other ones. So I know what it's like to have strong emotional bonds, you know, I do experience emotions, they're just turned way down. And it's much, much harder to create those bonds. And, you know, so a lot of people are able to make friends very deeply, very easily, where they're strongly emotionally connected, they miss them terribly when they're not around, and, you know, experience their pain and stuff like that. And that's, that's usually not my case. You know, if I'm away from Liana, for an extended period, I miss her I'm frequently away from she leaves for long periods of time, and I miss her terribly, you know, and, but for most people, that's not the case. Just, it just isn't even even friends of mine I've had since I was in my early 20s, I will go for months or years without seeing them, and then just kind of like just doesn't really matter that much. And I'm happy to see them when they come back. But it's not an emotional reaction one way or the other. It's just kind of blah, and yeah, that that's isolating. It gets lonely. There are times where I wish it was very different experience, but it's not. And you know, there's some evidence that there's an actual physical difference in the brain of people with ASPD, there's often on PET scans, dark areas in the spot where the frontal the prefrontal cortex and a camera with the fucking other parts called, I don't know, it starts with an A and an M. I don't know, brain words are

Stephen Bradford Long 1:06:47
about remembering right now. I mean, we're really on top of my brain words, but I'm forgetting that one,

Dex Desjardins 1:06:52
it basically the part that regulates emotion, and the part that regulates into the ocean, amygdala, amygdala, that's it. Yeah. So on a lot of, on the, on the PET scans of a lot of people who are diagnosed with psychopathy, or ASPD, those areas are dark, to their various degrees, there's just not much going on there. And that's, and that's increasingly become known in neuroscience that, you know, there is an actual physical difference in the brains of certain people. So it's not a thing you can counsel somebody out of necessarily or medicate away. And I have applied for a study, actually, that will, if I get into it would include a PET scan to look for that exact physiological occurrence.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:07:35
I think that when a lot of people hear the word psychopath, or sociopath or less commonly antisocial personality disorder, they assume kind of this, for lack of a better term, like almost like a vampire, like something in human who does not need someone who is inhuman, who does not have who does not have a need for human connection. The same the need for human contact, and it sounds like you still crave or you still want human connection, maybe just in a different way, and maybe you don't have as as ready access to it. But you still want it. Am I hearing that correctly?

Dex Desjardins 1:08:21
Yeah, I think so. And, you know, even if you're talking about psychopaths who are just terrible, like, you know, your your Jeffrey Dahmer, for example, right? I mean...

Stephen Bradford Long 1:08:30
Gay icon, honestly.

Dex Desjardins 1:08:33
Well, I mean, I don't think anyone would argue he wasn't a psychopath. It happens.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:08:36
I mean, just 100% a psychopath.

Dex Desjardins 1:08:38
I mean, it's Hannibal Lecter is you can basically come in real life, I think. Yep. And what was a lot of what he was doing, I mean, not the eating people part. But, you know, he was trying to make companions, he was trying to make sure people would never leave, and he was looking for human connections he could otherwise not make. So I would think I would say that that's probably a very common occurrence, when people ASPD is wanting authentic human connections that they have a lot of difficulty making, you know, and apparently unpleasant to be around, people seem to enjoy my company, for the most part. And so I have not had problems, you know, having having people around me that I like, and appreciate and respect, which is very nice. You know, I've got my very, very, very valuable and, you know, beloved relationships and my partners. So, you know, not completely without, but yeah, it definitely. I do wish that I could experience more of that. But, you know, the mechanism is just malfunctioning that allows that to happen. I think it's probably more common than people realize, I think a big part of is just that, you know, strong emotion and emotional connections is just such a big part of what a lot of people associate with being human as opposed to an Android. So, you know, if you're, if you're low on those things, or lacking Those things completely. Yeah, I mean, people will often find a recoil. And you know, if they sense that those things are absent or turned way down, they will, you know, wonder if this person is safe to be around, what are they thinking, you know, are they are they sinister as the one person said, yeah, and, you know, I don't think I am. It's just funny. Longtime former leader in TST, once said to me, that I was drama proof. And, you know, because you know, God has some drama, sometimes.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:10:34
I would 100% call you drama proof. It's a superpower.

Dex Desjardins 1:10:39
In this case, it's a superpower, it is a superpower. People have come in and out of my life, to TST sometimes so rapidly, and I've had to counsel a lot of people who are new to leadership, who are struggling with the emotional elements of making and losing friends left and right now, like, oh, it's easy, just don't make any. And that's literally the advice I gave somebody one time they looked at me, like, I was fucking insane. And I was like, Alright, let me rephrase this. Be more cautious over building friendships, there you go nice, will come and go very quickly and end explosively. So you know, if you're like me, and you don't make those connections easily, then you can break those connections much easier. So people can come and go in and out of my life, and you know, they need help with TST stuff or whatever, or whatever, they just want to bitch about, you know, their lives or whatever, I'll listen, and I'll try to give the best advice I have. But I'm not emotionally invested in it the way where it's going to hurt me if it all blows up. And it often, you know, it does sometimes, and I've lost friends, some of whom I wished I had lost. But you know, it just kind of rolls off me. I'm like, Oh, that stinks. And then I move on with my day. So yeah, it's it's helped me to be very drama proof. And I think it's part of my longevity in this organization, is the ability to not be personally affected by that constant, you know, making and breaking of friendships. Yeah.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:11:55
Whereas, like, for me to survive, I have to, like, surround myself with layers upon layers upon layers of of, you know, emotional padding, and, and, like, hard boundaries and self care and all of this shit, just to like, get through the fucking day. So yeah, it is kind of like a superpower. But well, we are, we're getting close to time. And we and I have to run to the temple service soon. But this has been great. And to reiterate what I said at the very top, I feel like I know you to be a very just, and good person. And I love working with you. And it's like, I work with both you and police on ordination Council. I consider you a colleague and I just love working with you. And so I hope that this conversation is helpful for people to kind of get a sense of what it's like to be you. Yeah, I

Dex Desjardins 1:13:00
hope so. It's been an interesting exploration for me. And I think it's been interesting for those close to me to interact with these ideas. And you know, I know she at least aside it's helped her to understand me better and apparently loves me more for it, which is wonderful, because love her a lot too. And intensely and yeah, I guess you know, if you want to if you want to read about some of my experiences, it's it's Dec stage ardene.com/blog. That's where I post my mental health stuff. Dr. Dean spelled exactly like it's pronounced de SJAR. I don't know how the fuck it spelled di

Stephen Bradford Long 1:13:36
in any way. Yeah, I'll put I'll put it in the show notes. And everyone go read his work. It is absolutely fascinating and very, very interesting. And really moving as well, like you writing about your childhood is just so good. Very, very well written. But all right, well, that is it for this show. The music is wild by eleventy seven. You can find it on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to music. This show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long and as a production of rock candy recordings, as always, Hail Satan. And thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STPoetic Faith9gza1

2022-10-11T08:06:11Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STPoetic_Faith9gza1
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, religion, ritual, satanic temple, faith, wrote, called, belief, life, book, non theistic, poetic, world, talking, religious, point, atheists, sense, satanism, find
SPEAKERS
Stephen Bradford Long, Tony Wolf

00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast. I am Avery Smith. And I'm here to invite you to bless it are the binary breakers and multifaith podcast of transgender stories. Whatever your own relationship to gender and spirituality may be, you will find yourself enriched by the stories shared by my guests who so far have ranged in religion from Christian and pagan to Jewish, Sikh, atheist and beyond and have hailed from the US, Chile, Poland, Australia and more tune in wherever you get your podcasts or read along with episode transcripts by visiting blesses are the binary breakers.com See you there.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:03
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com All right. As always, I have to thank my patrons. I have an absolutely crippling addiction to oversharing on the internet. And I need you to help fund this crippling addiction. So in order to do that, go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long and for $1 $3 $5 a month you get extra content every single week including my house of heretics podcast with the former Salvation Army officer turned Christian heretic Timothy McPherson, and we discuss faith, religion, Satanism philosophy, current events, from our dissonant lens, my dissonant perspectives, my perspective as a Satanist his perspective as a progressive Christian and patrons listening live and contribute to the conversation to so every Wednesday morning, it is always a fun time. This show is a one man operation, I do all of the recording all of the writing all of the booking all of the editing all of the production. And it is a part time job in addition to working for the temple and doing my day job. So every little bit really does help. And I believe in bringing these conversations to you for free. I believe that the world needs interesting long form conversations. But in order to do that, I need your help. So for this week, I have to thank Patricia Moreno, Scott Armstrong and Anna, thank you so much. With all of that out of the way. I'm delighted to welcome Tony wolf to the show. Hello, Tony. Welcome. Hello, Steven. And thank you. So tell us some about who you are and what you do. We connected via email you you sent me an email linking to a really lovely article that you wrote. And we started talking, we started going back and forth about the topic of what you call poetic faith. But before we get into that, tell us some about who you are and what you do.

Tony Wolf 03:29
Sure. I have a peculiar accent which you may already have noticed this because I was born and raised in New Zealand. I've been living in Chicago in the US for the past 1617 years Land

Stephen Bradford Long 03:40
of the hobbits Do you get it? Is that it's like somehow racist against New Zealanders to say land of The Hobbit. Okay, wonderful. Like do you get does it annoy you that, that people bring up hobbits all the time in relation to New Zealand?

Tony Wolf 03:57
Well, as a matter of fact, I worked on the Lord of the Rings movies.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:00
Oh my god. Okay. We're just going to talk about that for the rest of the movie for the rest of the show. We are we are ditching the rest and all of the topics that we had planned. We're talking about Lord of the Rings now.

Tony Wolf 04:13
Yes, yeah. I always hesitate before I bring that up in the sort of context but so now, there's it's certainly not an insult. It isn't racist. Neither incidentally has been called a Kili.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:23
Oh, good. Okay. I can call you a Hobbit or a kiwi.

Tony Wolf 04:28
You can call me a hobbit. Q if you feel like it. Yeah, but I

Stephen Bradford Long 04:32
very tactlessly completely interrupted your introduction of yourself within like the first sentence. So do please continue.

Tony Wolf 04:42
I'm so sorry. I was fine. That was where I was born and raised anyway. And New Zealand is a very atheistic sort of the country. I believe one of the most atheistic or non theistic countries in the world. And I was born in the late 60s grew up in the 70s and I It is, and really never received any sort of religious education at all. No Sunday school, no indoctrination of any kind. But I developed a really strong kind of intellectual interest in the variety of belief, particularly sort of fringe beliefs as a young teenager, and I spent some time in my teens and early 20s, just trying to investigate that as well as I could prior a long time prior to the internet, I would visit various fringe groups and do a lot of research on the libraries, buying secondhand books, and so on. I was just fascinated by the phenomenon of belief. I wanted to figure out why people who believe particularly in the supernatural, why they thought that way. And so I was going on to these groups, not in the sense of trying to find a belief for myself. But more as a sort of undercover anthropologist, I wanted to get to know the people and figure out what they were about. And as a result of that interest came across the notion of creative spirituality, which is something that I think I first came across that and Miko Atlas book drawing down the moon, which is very readable and very fascinating for me, the study of the American Neo pagan center in the 70s. And I was very impressed by that, partly because these people did not seem necessarily to be true believers, they seem to be operating in a kind of a third way space, somewhere between the sort of skepticism that is satisfied with with simply saying no to everything. And the type of true belief in which one one would prefer a genuine belief in gods and magic and those sorts of things. The pagans seem to have found a third way. And so I got involved in that scene for a while. And in my early 20s. Now, and unfortunately, at about that time, I lost two very close friends, one to suicide, and the other to a tragic motorcycle accident. I attended the funerals, and I wrote one of them, I wrote an obituary for one of them. I helped his family clear out his apartment. But I was left unmoved, particularly by the funeral, he was Greek Orthodox. And so I attended the event. And I didn't understand the symbolism, I didn't understand that, apart from anything else, the priest was speaking largely in Greek, I was just unmoved. And that left me sort of unsatisfied in the wake of these tragedies. And so because of my interest in this, this idea of creative spirituality, the idea that you could create your own soulful practice, I guess, as a work of art in the same way that you might write a poem or compose a piece of music or write a story. I devised my own memorial ritual for him. And I found that that was profoundly effective. That actually gave me a sense of, of closure. And I found the fact in the decades this was 30, something years ago now. But I have found that in the decades following, looking back at that, I'm so profoundly glad that I did it, because now it gives it gives me a positive memory and a sense to go along with the tragedy of his his violent and very sudden and very untimely death, he was only 25. And ever since then, I've paid really close attention to this phenomenon of what I think of as poetic faith. We'll get into that, I guess, later on, and particularly towards innovations in kind of artistic Memorial and memento mori ritual that has, it's been a sustaining interest for 30, something years, after my father died in 2016, I began to pay much more attention to what was going on in that sphere. With regards to the death positivity movement, the death cafe, scene, those sorts of things. And then the pandemic rolled around, of course, in 2020, at a very sort of heightened point of my life as well. And it occurred to me then, that if I was never going to take this public, because it always just been my practice my sort of individual underground thing that I did. But it just seemed like so many people were dying. And during the early stages of the pandemic, we had no idea how contagious the virus might be. This could virtually have been the end of the world for we knew. And it just seemed to me like this would be a very worthy thing to focus much of my attention on. This is kind of what I've been doing since then.

Stephen Bradford Long 09:30
So you've been focusing on creating cathartic and meaningful rituals in a time of, you know, death and destruction and uncertainty for a lot of people for people who might not have a faith in the supernatural. Am I hearing that right?

Tony Wolf 09:54
It is. Yeah, I think that if one has faith in the supernatural one can still probably get a good be allowed the sorts of things that I, I've created over the years, but it's particularly for secularists, for atheists, for people who with the best will in the world may find themselves rather floundering in these very extreme emotional circumstances, they may find that that reason and logic will only take them so far and they find that they need the the catharsis, as you say, of a symbolic ritual. And the rituals can be performed without any, without any literal belief in the supernatural at all. Do you think

Stephen Bradford Long 10:35
that there is a drive within humanity for for symbolism and ritual and enchantment to enter into what Joseph Laycock calls a para chasm, which is kind of a shared imaginative world? Do I jumped? I go back and forth on this because I personally feel a very deep religious need, I experience this deep, deep religious need that that is that Jesus does not go away. I've always been a deeply religious person. I've never not been religious. I don't know if that extends to everyone. though. I don't know if that is a universal feature. And I'm not comfortable saying that it is. But But what do you think? Do you think that that there is any kind of an innate need for religious expression or symbolism?

Tony Wolf 11:32
I think that there is for very many people, certainly, I've gone through years in my life where I didn't feel any need to perform ritual or to really focus on spirituality. I think of it as soulfulness. Sometimes, I think, because I was simply getting enough of that my daily life, sometimes because I was busy doing other things. But I think it's very valuable to have that faculty available for the times when you do need it. I think that many people inherently probably do need it anyway. And I think that a really, quite a small number of people have an almost visceral reaction against that idea. I think possibly, particularly people who are sort of in recovery from the Orthodox mainstream religions, there's a great deal of resistance, I know, in the skeptical community in some of the, the atheistic communities, to anything that even sort of smacks of religion. And they can be kind of hard cells when I'm trying to explain this, this notion of poetic faith, because I think to them, it's basically a painful reminder of a situation they'd rather that rather than ever has been involved with,

Stephen Bradford Long 12:43
do you think that there's some people who are just wired differently in and I don't mean that in a negative sense at all, that they're just people who, for for whom? Religion does not, and religion and ritual just does not move the needle at all, you know, like, maybe someone like Richard Dawkins, who was just, you know, I don't know, just fucking born like that, which is great. It's fine. You know, we all know like those stone cold atheists. And, and they're wonderful, this isn't a diss on them at all. But I, I look at how they express themselves and what they talk about. And then I look at my own life. And there's, there's a fundamental difference there. And I sometimes wonder if it's, if it's like almost neurological, if it's a different type of personality or type of wiring, you know,

Tony Wolf 13:40
I think it could well be I know, you know, the extremes in that direction. I mean, there was, if you look back into the history of humanism, this has always been an assumption that you can read right back to the time of the Enlightenment, that insofar as humans at the mass of humans might become capable of, of life without faith in the supernatural, that the gap that would be left, and it's acknowledged that that would be a massive gap for, for gigantic numbers of people, that it would be filled by the wonders of, for example, democratized art and literature and the wonders of nature. And I think that that does hold true, but for quite a small number of people. I think that the majority I mean, clearly the majority of humans. I don't know if they need it, but they definitely want to have some some form of transcendent symbology and and ritual in their lives.

Stephen Bradford Long 14:40
Yeah, have you seen this as a bit of a tangent? But have you seen Are you familiar with the YouTuber contra points? I'm sure with contra points. She's, she's a trans YouTuber, and she's really brilliant, but I'm going to recommend that all of my listeners go watch her neatest, genius video. It's about an hour long so it's definitely an investment. But it's a it's it's a oh god, how do I even do I do I want to go down the route of of explaining this impossible video I guess I'll go for it and if I have to cut this out, then that's fine. But in this video she dramatize is a conversation between a fundamentalist Christian and a secular activist, of a secular progressive activist. And it's, it's brilliant, because it is obvious that the fundamentalist Christian is wrong, and that her worldview is fundamentally destructive, but that there is a fundamental need being met in her in her life in her worldview, by her religious existence that is not being met in the activists life and the progressive activists life. And then as the movie unfolds as the movie, I mean, it is practically a movie. And then as the mood as the video unfolds, the video follows the the the activist that contra points is playing, and I think her name is Justine Tableau in this video and how she is so riddled with guilt and shame. And she's ostracized by her own community, all of which has happened to counterpoint herself within the trans community, and she turns to opioids, she turns to really heavy drug addiction. And so within this video is the tension between what I think is a very honest portrayal that I think contra points probably is wrestling with and grappling with is, on the one hand, a religion that fulfills a need a personal need, but as a fundamentally destructive to society. Versus a secularism that might be true, but feels utterly empty. And, and she and the video is just left with and like on this note of despair on this note of desperation and despair, just not knowing how to resolve that. And I think that that's the dilemma that maybe not most people find themselves in. But it's the dilemma that I found myself in, I felt like I was stuck between cold rationality, or irrational religion, and I needed both. And I could, and I didn't know how to find it. And it was only until the Satanic Temple came along that I felt like I discovered. It was like discovering something revolutionary. For me. I felt like I had discovered a new continent or something. It wasn't of this. This realization of I can have enchantment I can have religion and I can have rationality to. And I don't have to believe in God in order to be to satisfy this deep religious need. So yeah, if you get a chance, definitely watch that video by contra points, because it is very powerful. I'll send it to you after the show. Also, I'll put it in the show notes for everyone else to watch it as well.

Tony Wolf 18:24
Thank you. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, what you've just described is exactly what I think of as Politik, faith. And the Satanic Temple is a superb example of that. I'm actually about halfway through writing a book on the subject. So my husband says, my answers and comments may be a little scattered. Sure. But I would say the Satanic Temple is obviously the, the most popular and largest manifestation of this, this idea, this phenomenology, which I've been trying to trace back, really to the, to the time of the ancient Greeks, but particularly back over the past couple of 100 years. And you can see a kind of an evolution of this concept from, from pure ideation, through to the first sort of tentative steps towards actualization. And then during the period of the 1960s and 70s, via the counterculture movement, suddenly, an entire generation felt as if it had permission to play with these ideas. So all of a sudden, you get the Church of Satan and all of the Neo pagan groups, they all sort of exploded on the into the counterculture scene at that time. But now we're at least one generation after that. And which is what one of the one of the reasons why I find this Satanic Temple so interesting is that the idea of of the practice has now matured. And so with TST, you have an institution that basically takes us read the scientific worldview. And this is okay, now what, which is this thing that I think we're the best will in the world, humanism has never really achieved it. Hmm. And I find it very exciting.

Stephen Bradford Long 20:02
I agree with that there was a quote from in Ruben van Lewin. Actually, it's pronounced Ruben van lac, I just found that out. But it looks like luik you wrote the book children of Lucifer, but one of the opening quotes of his book here, let me let me find this, oh, Kindles signed out, nevermind, I won't find it. My technology has conspiring against me, but the quote was something like the religion of the future will be the atheism of today. Or will be the seeds planted by atheists, or something like that something, something of that nature. And which I think, I think that there's something inevitable about religion, in that, you know, the, the four horsemen of the apocalypse can come along, and they can kind of break down the doors of of fundamentalist religion in the United States and, and kind of usher in this sect try to usher in the secularization, and it's almost like even secularization, and the scientific method and rationality will become a given and then will be folded into the future iterations of religion, whatever that is, if that makes sense.

Tony Wolf 21:24
Yeah, it does. And I think that's, that's in a way, that's the opportunities that some of the major humanist groups, the certainly groups like the Satanic Temple, the spiritual naturalist, society, the religious naturalist Association, you can see these these various approaches popping up in all corners of academia and the work of certain fringe artists basically, bubbling up in from the counterculture and from various subcultures. And this is quite a recent thing, which we could date it back, I guess, again to the 60s and 70s. But there's there's definitely a resurgence of that sort of thing over about the past 10 years. And I think it's partly a reaction against the increasing sort of monotheism and a sense of the dominant culture of the mainstream culture, which is becoming evermore increasingly corporate and slick, and, and boring, frankly. And you're starting to see these, these, these bubbling pockets of fringe thought, in a variety of spheres. I'm personally I'm interested to see what's going to happen when all of those people start discovering each other and start sharing ideas. I don't think that's really that's really happening yet. But I'm hoping to have a hand and helping it.

Stephen Bradford Long 22:42
So give a succinct definition of poetic faith. What do you mean when you say poetic faith?

Tony Wolf 22:51
Well, it's the same thing that JRR Tolkien referred to were very nearly the same thing that Tolkien referred to when he would write about myth appear, which means mythmaking. Tolkien was a devout Christian but obviously also the author of The Lord of the Rings. And he took mythology in this some creative practice of mythmaking very seriously, he actually coined that phrase, I think, during a sort of a poetic argument was CS Lewis, who was the author of the the Narnia stories. Lewis at that time, had professed a sort of a disinterest or a disrespect for mythology, because Willis was also a Christian. And Tolkien wrote this extraordinary poem, in which he, he kind of challenged Lewis's point. And his, his idea of mythmaking was that, in a way, mythology could reveal truths that were truer than reality. And also, there was the there's the notion of this is not succinct. I've just realized,

Stephen Bradford Long 23:59
no, no, no, that's no, this is great. Keep going. This is madness.

Tony Wolf 24:05
But I think that's that's what he was writing about. The thing is, as a devout Christian, he referred to this. Mr. Pena is some creation of mythology as as a sub creation, because he was not able to conceive of other of the human creation that could equal that of the supernatural God. But once you get again to the period of the 60s and 70s, you have a generation of young adults who have grown up reading The Lord of the Rings, just for example. And I think that when those that generation of kids got into college, they started to look around and think we know what the 60s are happening. And you know what? These books The Lord of the Rings, this this mythology, means much more to me personally and stirs my imagination and gets my my sense of soulfulness ribbing in a way that the church that I went to when I was a kid just never did. And that generation felt a freedom perhaps for the first time. For the first time in history, there had been outliers going way back for several 100 years. But this was the first time it happened on a generational scale, that there was the sense of permission given to experiment with that, and to play not only with the idea of it, but with the practice. So the there was not a succinct at all. But I think that poetic faith, as I use it is very much akin to what he referred to as, as myth appears as myth making. The difference is that now because I use the term poetic faith in a way that's distinct from the way that colors should I should talk a bit about Samuel coloriage, who actually coined the phrase,

Stephen Bradford Long 25:47
the poetic faith, you mean, yeah, got it.

Tony Wolf 25:51
Yeah. And coloriage way back in the earliest, early 1800s. He was a poet, very famous English poet. And he wrote of conjuring the suspension of disbelief that can conjure up for a moment, this sense of poetic faith in something that isn't real. But which can still impact one deeply, profoundly, emotionally imaginatively, intellectually, you know, that it isn't real. But you're able to enter into the spirit, I think that's another good definition. It's the ability to imaginatively and emotionally enter into the spirit of a work of fiction, with the intellectual understanding that it's fiction, but still allow that, to, to make massive epical changes, hopefully, for the good in one's life and one's personality and one's worldview.

Stephen Bradford Long 26:42
So I'm drawing all kinds of parallels here, because Anton LaVey would talk about objectively entering into a subjective space, which I think is a a good way to put that. And he also talked about confining the, confining the ritual to the ritual chamber. And, and which means kind of entering the ritual chamber entering the magic chamber and an understanding that, that you're entering a fantasy, but it's real simultaneously and it is psychologically real, it is powerful, you experience it. And then you can exit that space and, and go into the mundane, returned to the mundane. And, you know, I've, you know, as as as crazy and shitty as Anton LaVey, was, a lot of the time he had a few good insights. And I think that was one of the good insights. But also, I've been thinking about this in. So the other day, I was on a walk with a friend, and we were talking about, about this subject and the subject of kind of inventing religion, inventing religion, and basically, the conversation was, you know, I don't believe in God, but I feel this need. And, but I feel like a lack of belief will make the thing less powerful will make the thing less real. And I was like, I don't think that's true belief or lack of belief, does not lessen the power of the religious and ritual experience. And that's so counterintuitive for so many people. And so I want I think one of the big hurdles that a lot of people have, for what you describe as poetic faith, or, you know, non theistic ritual. And this is one of the hurdles that I that I think a lot of people that I've seen a lot of people go through when they approach ritual within Satanism is, well, if I don't believe it, then what's the point? If I don't believe it, then then what's the purpose? What good does this do? And I get this from both sides of the faith spectrum? How do I get this from atheists who say, Well, what's the point of doing? What's the point of having a pagan or magic ritual? What's the point of doing chaos magic, which I'm a huge personal fan of, what's the point of doing chaos magic? Or what's what's the point of, of having an altar? My altar is currently covered in books right now, as you can see, but what's the point of having an altar? That you ritualize? What's the point of having a sacred space or any of that stuff? What's the point of it? If you don't believe it's real? What's the fucking point? And then I get the exact same thing from people of supernatural faith, people who literally believe in God and they say, Well, you know, If Christ is just a symbol, if he's just an archetype, and he didn't actually raise from the dead, you know, die, and then raise again on the third day, then what's the whole fight? What's the fucking point of the maths? What's the point of this ritual? How do you how do you get past that hurdle? Well,

Tony Wolf 29:55
I explained that in terms again, of suspension of disbelief, so it's not Believe it isn't rock ribbed unbelief, or isn't again the kind of unbelief that is simply satisfied with the saying no to everything. I would explain it in positive terms of reinterment. Not in a literal magic sense, magic with a CK. But in terms of, again the ability to enter imaginatively and emotionally into the spirit of basically a narrative. And I'm using narrative in a very broad sense a narrative could be, could be invested, for example, in a symbol TST invests a great deal of narrative power into the literary symbol of Satan. Yes, without, without obviously believing in a literal entity, a supernatural entity called Satan. But the point there is that the symbol genuinely does mean a great deal, which from grieves, keeps referring to our deeply held beliefs, because they are because if you're using Satan to represent ideas like bodily autonomy and rebellion against unjust tyranny, and Hell yeah, people believe in that and so they should I sometimes use the the parallel of people going to visit things like the Statue of Liberty, no one literally believes that Lady Liberty is is a huge Goddess of freedom. But damn sure people go there and they feel something and they can feel something very profound and moving, because they understand that this is a personification. This is a, a literary in a sense of a symbolic construct. But the thing in something,

Stephen Bradford Long 31:41
yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the only so so I have the, I have my previous life as a Christian to kind of compare my my life as a Satanist to. And what's so interesting to me is, I did literally believe in Jesus. I did literally believe in God and the Trinity. I do not literally believe in Satan. But the experience of of the experience of Jesus, in the experience of Satan, are so close to each other, religiously speaking, they are for as a matter of experience, it's almost like Satan, the literary symbol of Satan imbues my every day I mean, I am a Satanist every single day I live and breathe the tenets I am, it's just become part of the fabric of my life. It's like closer than my skin and that symbol and that life and the and the imaginative power and enchantment of the symbol of Satan is just there with me every single day, I could say the exact same thing about the person of Christ. But I literally believed in Christ. But and I guess that, for me, that demonstrates that belief is not the important ingredient that we hear in America and kind of Protestant centric, America might think it is. Right? It we might be, it might not be the essential ingredient for having profound religious experience and, and, and a profound a profound sense of enchantment.

Tony Wolf 33:28
Yeah, no, I don't think that it is. And I think that the experience of other cultures and places outside of the US and other cultures through history tend to be that out. I mean, there are plenty of religions in the world that don't actually require a literal belief in deities, for example, but they do tend to, as it will require a certain shade of said, excuse me a certain set of shared values. And very frequently, they will at least strongly encourage a set of shared behaviors through ritual. I think that the there's an interesting case study. So Francis Galton, English scientist, again, early 19th century, early mid 19th century, he was very interested in I'm using the language that he used the language of the mid 19th century, but he was interested in the primitive beliefs of primitive tribes people. And he tried an experiment on himself a psychological experiment, whereby he hung up a poster of a character cartoon character called Mr. Punch. Some of your readers or your listeners may be aware of Mr. Punch, sort of a grotesque puppet. There's an added Punch and Judy show. And at that time, Mr. Punch was used as the mascot for a famous humor magazine. Anyway, golden got this idea in his head and he hung up a picture of Mr. Punch on his wall, and for 10 minutes or something every morning, he would focus all of the force of His will and His imagination and his sentiment on this image, trying to come To the sort of religious or that he that he was searching for. And he found after a period of several weeks that it was starting to work. And it worked to the point that it actually frightened him. Yes. Yeah. And I think that I mean, that's a fascinating experiment for that man at that time. But I think it concretely demonstrates the sort of phenomenon that we're talking about. There was no sense in which Sir Francis Galton literally believed that Mr. Punch was a God, because he's basically a ridiculous grotesque puppet. Yeah. But under the circumstances that he willingly entered, in the in the spirit of suspension of disbelief, he entered the state of poetic faith, and it profoundly moved him. And again, it's not a complicated thing, really, because we all learn to, to enter the state of poetic faith as young children, we learn to read within we watching television or whatever we learn to enter into the spirit of whatever the narrative is. And we can be positively changed, we can be profoundly changed by many people will remember favorite books from childhood that they will say, when they look back, this is really had a profound impact on my life on the way I see the world and the way I treat other people. That's that's the phenomenon I'm talking about. And I think to go back to your earlier question, that's one of the ways I would explain it. And both rationalists and true believers, and rationalist, you can explain it easily. Simply, in psychological terms, the placebo effect is a real thing.

Stephen Bradford Long 36:23
Absolutely. And one thing that I've been thinking about quite a bit lately, and I've been thinking about this, because I've been getting back into the game Magic the Gathering, which I was into in college, and I have a friend who is who who plays it. And so I've started playing it again with him. And for people who don't know, you know, Magic the Gathering, it's a card game, but it takes place in like this vast, this vast fantasy multiverse, and you are a player in the game, you are a character in this universe. And there are mythologies and worlds and characters and classes and jazz in it's huge. And it's the same experience with Dungeons and Dragons, when you play Dungeons and Dragons. And there is a very real sense of entering into an enchanted space. When you play a game like magic the gathering, or Dungeons and Dragons. And that sense that feel of you're, you're engaged in this with another person or group of people. And you are in this shared imaginative space. And even though it's imaginative, that doesn't make it less impactful. Because then you you walk away from that experience, you re enter the mundane world. You know, I go go home from from the game night and I go to bed and then I go to work the next day. But I carry within me this sense of having actually had a real experience that that changed me in some really meaningful way. There was a shared enchantment that has left an imprint on me that that experience of, of gaming, and I don't say and I you know, Joseph Laycock, who I bring up all the time he wrote, Speak of the devil, which is the Book about tst. But early on he many years ago, he wrote a book called Dangerous Games, which is...

Tony Wolf 38:35
I'm looking at it right now.

Stephen Bradford Long 38:36
Oh, you're okay. Perfect. Have you read?

Tony Wolf 38:37
In fact, I first came across that book in the satanic temple library.

Stephen Bradford Long 38:41
Yeah, it's it's a fantastic book. But one of the things he talks about is the importance of play. And play is not a derogatory thing at all, you know, he doesn't use the term play in a demeaning sense, play is this incredibly profound and human experience that involves engagement and role playing and an entering an enchanted space to gather. And I wonder if, if play, and religion and ritual are kind of cut from the same cloth?

Tony Wolf 39:16
Yes, I think that they are I think they are far closer than specialists in any one of those areas would normally consider the parallel. I was talking before about these non theistic religions, approaches to poetic faith that are bubbling up at the moment. In parallel with that there are psychologists doing serious work on what what they sometimes called Deep play, which is I think the experience that you're talking about, it's just, it's just kind of a matter of recontextualizing reframing, we think of play as something that is trivial because it's done by children. Well, not necessarily. When adults play, they'll play watch six games, they'll play football. These are because these are the things that most people do. They're the mainstream But you look again, into into the counterculture into subcultures, you start to find all sorts of interesting manifestations of play. A lot of the the even today, the major Neo pagan religions began effectively as jokes. Yes, or as games. Yeah. And then what happened consistently, pretty much across the board was people were just again, mostly young people, most university students in the late 60s, early 70s, they were playing with these ideas. And then they'd go out into the world and maybe, maybe hold some sort of a ritual, a ritual in honor of Dionysus, or Odin, or damaged or whatever. And they would find that it's not only fun, but it actually works. And so then they start to take a little more seriously, and they go out again, and gradually, because these groups tend to be, they're not necessarily but they do often tend to be fairly short lived. But gradually over time, because there were so many of them, and they started to communicate back and forth, writing occasional conferences, as you get into the 1980s and 90s. It develops into its own cult, countercultural scene, it develops its own, in a sense, ritual technologies. And again, that's a reason why I find TSG. So interesting now, is that you guys have the benefit of that. Where are we? 50 year 55 year tradition? Yeah, whether it's whether it's conscious or not, but it's something that you can call upon. And it's now established, you don't necessarily have to invent it all yourselves. You can certainly innovate. But but the concept has now been seated. Yeah, absolutely. Concept of the state play of suspending disbelief.

Stephen Bradford Long 41:41
I was having a conversation with Chili's Blythe, who's, I just did a show with her. But, but I was talking, I forget when this was this was, I think it was on the show, I can't remember. But she was talking about how, within Satanism, we need to have a really deep respect and appreciation for a lot of the occultists who came before us because they were the ones who laid the groundwork, and we can look into the works of, you know, the chaos magicians and the Neo pagans and, and people like Aleister Crowley and the Theosophists. And, and it's complicated. There is a lot of supernatural belief there. But it's also a bit more nuanced than that. It's it and, you know, we, we shouldn't just kind of sneer at it and say, oh, you know, though, look at those, you know, lunatics who were, you know, and, you know, with their silly hats and whatever. But instead, we, that's our foundation. Within Satanism, we come from the same intellectual stream that Wiccans come from, that Neo pagans come from? We come from that same kind of Western esoteric tradition, and we need to know that and appreciate that. So I'm totally vibing with everything that you're saying right now.

Tony Wolf 43:06
Well, well, good. It's mutual. And yeah, and I think it's worth pointing out I referred earlier to drawing down the moon Miko answers, but and there are substantial sections and their wishes, interviewing pagans, who say no, I don't literally believe in gods and magic. This is psychological archetype. These are symbolic representations of the great powers of nature, or of hidden potentialities within within myself within the people in my community. And that idea was was basically been taken as read as early as the late 60s. I think that it became in that sphere, I think it became kind of Declasse say, to overtly talk about that stuff, particularly during the 1980s and 90s. And I haven't any sort of a study this but my guess is that as that sphere as the as the Neo pagan sphere, grew closer to the New Age mainstream insofar as the new age could be considered mainstream. It developed a kind of an orthodoxy and a big part of the orthodoxy was, basically you don't mention that you are, in fact, an atheist and a skeptic who was who was getting a lot out of this activity who don't who doesn't genuinely literally believe in gods and goes to magic. Yes, it's in a sense, it became rude to profess that I think that was a bit of a shame because they were the people in the the some of the founders were really onto something. That prospective though is now coming back into the fore you have books like godless paganism, which I contributed to under a pseudonym, big thick book of an anthology of all manner of people who are overtly practicing paganism. Without any literal belief in God's metric. A lot of them are scientists, a lot of them are artists, a lot of them both. atheopaganism is become a major stream in that regard.

Stephen Bradford Long 44:57
I feel like so much of the atheists First World and the American mainline religious world are just totally unprepared to engage with that, and so I like how do you so you're also a columnist at only Sky, which is a oral blogger at only sky.

Tony Wolf 45:19
I'm a feature writer, technically, you're a feature writer. Perfect.

Stephen Bradford Long 45:22
So you're a feature writer at only Sky, which is kind of a secular humanist, atheist website. So how do fellow non theists and atheists respond to you, when you say this kind of stuff, like what happens because I can tell you what happens to me when I say this kind of stuff, but what happens to you

Tony Wolf 45:48
is probably the same sort of thing. Honestly, I'm not fat. To begin, I've only just recently started writing for on this guy, I have a contract with them and stuff. But it's, it's fairly early days there. My intuition is that the other writers would be open to the, to the notion of it, but it will require a careful explanation. And you may well have to repeat certain points several times. And it's not it's not that they're not that they couldn't apprehend the concepts intellectually, it's that it is very, very, it's from far out out of their field. This third way, perspective, a lot of people and I'm not just talking about on the sky now, but a lot of skeptics and atheists are very much involved in this binary, you are this or you are that perspective, really, a lot of American culture is, is extremely binary. To the extent that sometimes we're worried that the country is driving itself crazy. There's there's one advantage of the polytheistic perspective, I'm not speaking about, again, literal belief in gods but a sort of polytheistic psychology, like James Hillman wrote about that. A polytheist is much better able I suspect to roll with the punches, because they're accustomed to thinking in multiple terms rather than in terms of of a question binary

Stephen Bradford Long 47:11
in duality. Yeah, yeah. They're thinking in a non binary sense, no. And with, do you know, the cartoonist, the naked pastor,

Tony Wolf 47:21
I'm sorry, the name again,

Stephen Bradford Long 47:21
the naked pastor. No, I interviewed him years ago, on this show, he was great. But he's a cartoonist. He's like a progressive, he has a he has a Christian minister, but he was asked, or the cartoon is of someone being asked, So are you do you believe in God? Or are you an atheist? And the person the other person in the cartoon responds, I'm non binary. And, and I fucking love that. Because in a lot of ways, I, I think that non theism is, for me personally. The way I would describe non theism as the same way that Mike McHarg, who's an author, he wrote, finding God in the waves, and he kind of approaches Christianity from a non theistic mindset. But he says non theism is taking any racer to the line that divides atheism and theism. And it is, and it is erasing that boundary. So you can still have and so, in that spirit, I wrote an article several years ago called on not believing in God, but experiencing him anyway. And, and that's the kind of non duality that I'm interested in. And so I'm, I'm interested in this experience of knowing that the enchanted space is not literally real, but that doesn't make it any less any less. experientially real for me.

Tony Wolf 48:58
Precisely. Yeah. I remember you're in Asheville, right? That's right. Yep. Yeah. And I had a moment of insight. My wife and I vacation in Asheville. It was an anniversary vacation probably about five years ago now. And I loved it. It was very much my kind of town.

Stephen Bradford Long 49:15
Oh, yeah. It has hills, you would fit right in here.

Tony Wolf 49:19
But yeah, basically, it's full of hills and curves and Chicago as far as board and everything set out on a grid. So I liked the hills and curves. But we did all of the things that I've been doing back in the 80s and 90s. drum circles and river river tubing down isn't the French Broad River,

Stephen Bradford Long 49:34
the French Broad. There's also the Nanta hayleigh And lots of other rivers. Yeah,

Tony Wolf 49:39
we did that. We went to the arts district at the end of this sort of whirlwind week of doing all of these kinds of hippyish countercultural things found ourselves in the middle of the street festival, which we hadn't know was known was happening. Oh, was it? Which one was it? I can't recall. It would have been late September, I guess.

Stephen Bradford Long 49:56
Okay. There there are so many street festival Will's in Asheville author this summer, so there's no telling which one it was.

Tony Wolf 50:05
Yeah, well, it was a big one. And the vibe just really got to me somehow. And I remember turning into my wife and saying, You know what? I don't believe in gods or ghosts or magic. But I take them really seriously.

Stephen Bradford Long 50:18
Absolutely. Yeah, I'm the exact same way. And, you know, I, so Douglas Harding, who wrote the headless way. And I did an interview with his student who's who's kind of carried on the teaching of the headless way. Oh, what to Richard Lange, I talked to Richard Lang about the headless way, several episodes ago. And the headless way is kind of this very weird method of meditation in which you search for your own head. And in searching for your own head, you discover that there is no center to the experience of consciousness and you have that this is this experience of selflessness of emptiness, and it's kind of a western approach to non dual meditation. And but one thing that Douglas Harding wrote, was, the voice of the devil asks, So what and so one of the things that people might, that I think a lot of people have with meditation is they do get glimpses, they do get glimpses of these really interesting states of mind, they get, they do get these really interesting glimpses of, of different types of consciousness and and different, different experiences of consciousness. But I think that as Douglas Harding said, a lot of people will say, so what and I think that there's that there's also that there's a similar situation here with what you're describing with poetic faith, or, you know, non theistic ritual, non theistic religion, so on and so forth. Stuff that I live in breathe and absolutely love, but it is, but I think it's really easy for someone to to look at it and be like, so what? Yes, I had an interesting experience. So what and I guess that the thing that I want to say there is there's no harm in giving it a try if you're if there's nothing wrong with exploring it.

Tony Wolf 52:28
Yeah, I agree. There's a there's a generational thing as well. I think the only sky people are talking about I guess it's Generation Z. Now the youngest, the Zoomers, yeah, who are apathetic just to a degree that's never before been recorded. Say that say that one more time. Apathy, just apathy is to chasm. They don't care.

Stephen Bradford Long 52:49
They don't give a fuck. Yeah, that makes sense.

Tony Wolf 52:54
That's the thing. And maybe some of them will develop an interest as they grow older. I don't know. But, um, but ya know, this is this is kind of rarefied stuff. It's bleeding edge. It is it is. And I think it's very difficult to take over the world, it probably shouldn't have to have that ambition, I think in order to take over the world, it would have to embrace so much of, of the mainstream, that it would lose its own essence. But what I'm interested in doing is, as I kind of travel around physically, sometimes and through studying other times, is spotting all these different manifestations and figuring out what it is that connects them or I'm particularly interested in connecting them all literally, getting them to communicate with each other. Because I think this is as you as you say, it's not a it's not a concept. It's not it's certainly not a practice that is ever going to appeal to a large majority. But I think that there's potentially enough of a minority as to form effectively its own subculture, if not counterculture. Absolutely, and that that would be of significant benefit, it's already proven to be of significant benefit to, to a decent number of people. Most of them are very smart. Most of them are pretty geeky. But they're getting stuff out of it. And I think that that has a lot of potential.

Stephen Bradford Long 54:10
Yeah, I agree. And also, you know, I think of people like myself, where I don't think I would ever have been able to leave Christianity theistic Christianity if it weren't for the discovery of non theistic religion. And so, I want to see on you know, on the edges of culture, more religious groups like the Satanic Temple that can meet a greater variety of needs, speak Yes, you know, so So the Satanic Temple, you know, Satanism, it is a niche of it is, it is a niche of a niche it it is very spooky, it scares away a lot of people. It's very intimidating. and it's very stigmatized. And so it is definitely not for everyone. But what I do want to see is more non theistic options for people. So because I think just as a harm reduction, reality, you know, as a, as a method of harm reduction to society, not that I'm, oh, I want to be careful how I say this, because I don't want to, you know, diss my, my beloved, religious friends, but I want to see more religious options for people like me, who's who desire religion, but cannot be reconciled to the supernatural components. Because until that happens, they're going there's going to be a subset of people who are just anguished or who, who just don't have a home or won't feel like they can let go of something that maybe they should let go of. Until there's another option.

Tony Wolf 56:04
Yeah, there's a wonderful scene in a well, it's a flawed but fascinating science fiction, sort of sci fi fantasy movie called Franklin if a if our a and k l. Lion. And it's, it's very difficult to describe it is a scene that is set in a sort of a futuristic steampunk type city. And it's a literal marketplace of religions. And the protagonist is walking through doing a sort of, if you're familiar with the Watchmen, Rorschach, oh, yeah, monologue, as his as he's walking through the city, the city is entirely run by religions, there are a million different cults. And he walks through the marketplace of religion and he's being you know, Proposition basically by representatives of all of these bizarre, bizarre cults. And it's in a sense it set our but in another way, it represents a sort of a radical pluralism that might be kind of fun. And as I understand it, that was Lucien Greaves and Malcolm Jerry's original thought when they were setting up TST, effectively as a as a set of media stunts. The idea was that they would create this thing, conceptually, and that it would then and inspire a whole bunch of fringe fringe non theistic religions. What actually happened, of course, was everybody said, The Satanic Temple I'm gonna,

Stephen Bradford Long 57:27
this is awesome. But you know, and in a lot of ways, that's my vision, too. You know, that's still my dream is. And it's also my dream legally. Like, I think that I was just on the on the show last week, with Chili's talking about this, I think that it's going to take other religious groups asserting their rights in a court, and it will, and so all of the, you know, within reason, and to a degree that safe for them. I think a lot of the weird fringe religions need to need to stand up and go to court and start to fight for their rights in a similar way that TST has done my hope, like my dream is that tsp would inspire, you know, the Quakers and the witches and the Unitarian Universalist and the Episcopalians in and and the pagans, and on and on and on and on and on to represent their own to represent their religious values in court on the basis of religious freedom in this country. That's what I want. And so in this, similarly to how like Lucian and Malcolm's original vision was, you know, we're going to do this stunt. And we we want it to inspire you no more Satanic and non theistic belief are not believed, but but groups and religion. That's my dream, legally, as well. Should we bring up the church of prismatic light as a group that might be doing that?

Tony Wolf 59:09
I think we kind of have to now?

Stephen Bradford Long 59:11
Yes, I think so.

Tony Wolf 59:12
Just from my point of view, you've been breaking up a bit, I've been able to follow the gist of what you're saying. Okay. I think we're on the same page. Yes, yes. The Church of prismatic white, which I'm only just barely qualified to discuss it all, but I did an interview with the the two high priest exes a couple of weeks ago, the church of prismatic light, which is the first non theistic religion that I'm aware of, and I pay a bit of attention to these sorts of things, which is overtly being inspired by TSD. And it's very newest on the a couple of months old. And briefly, what happened was one of the the founding they refer to themselves as pre sixes. Her one of her children is trained as a trans boy heard about what was going on in various conservative state It's regarding basically repressing and suppressing trans kids, right. And he went to his mother and said, If there happens in our state, I'm going to take my life. And his mother initially said, well, we'll escape will flee the state if that happens. But then it occurred to her that possibly they could start their own religion and actually fight it. And that's what she did. I think the next day she proposed the church of prismatic labs, she happened to have a pretty substantial tick tock following I believe. She proposed this to her members expecting to be sort of laughed, laughed out of the room and shouted down, but she got a lot of support. And it snowballed massively, over just the course of a couple of weeks, I think they, when I spoke to them, they had something like 170,000 followers. Wow. And so they've been very busy writing their own tenets and creating initiation or baptism, rituals, and so on. And they have, essentially, they will be doing the sale, when they're, when they've had time to organize, they'll be doing that we're aiming to do the same sort of thing for a particularly the young trans community, as the Satanic Temple has been doing. In terms of mounting, wow, legal challenges on behalf of the deeply held tenants that deeply held beliefs.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:01:20
That's amazing. And that is exactly the type of thing that I want to see happen. That's, it's that kind of action of people, you know, taking their own, you know, taking their own religious stance and fighting for it within the courts. That's what I love to see. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation. And, I mean, I live for this kind of stuff. And so I'm really grateful to you for coming on the show. And also, if I if I may ask, in the last, you know, couple of minutes here, what did you do on the Lord of the Rings set? If you don't mind say,

Tony Wolf 1:02:00
no, no, it's fine. Actually, I haven't done this role. My credit was the cultural fighting styles designer, which holds that my job for two years was to create a series of effectively fantasy martial arts for each of the various human and non human cultures that were featured in The Lord of the Rings movies, to invent them as close as I could to match the aesthetic and the the ethos of the characters as talked both as talking and written them, and also as they will being devised by various other production departments. And then to train various members of the stunt team and actors as they as they came on board. In how to perform.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:02:44
That's incredible.

Tony Wolf 1:02:46
That's a weird job.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:02:47
That's the most badass job ever.

Tony Wolf 1:02:50
You came up with a stranger? For a few days,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:02:54
I think it's way I think, I might think it's way more badass than you do. But you basically came up with like martial arts for like dwarves and elves and humans in Lord of the Rings.

Tony Wolf 1:03:05
Not for dwarves as it happens, because my my role was to come up for the, with the styles for the characters that would be seen in mass battle. I don't think we ever saw dwarves fighting on mass. Okay, at least not in the original trilogy. But I mean, for the L is for the Gondorian, Rohan for the the orcs, the Euro Kai, the, you know, the, I think there was seven major cultures that that I worked on. Wow. And then a sort of a variety of little as it were some cultures. Well,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:03:35
you're bringing out the mega fantasy nerd in me. So we should wrap this up now before it,

Tony Wolf 1:03:40
but it's probably safe before it gets

Stephen Bradford Long 1:03:43
out of hand. All right. Well, this has been great. I am so thankful to you for coming on. And for people who are interested in your work, where can they find you online?

Tony Wolf 1:03:53
I don't do very much in the way of social media and afraid. I've written the one article for only Sky, which I think you'll include in the show notes absolutely choose. We didn't even talk about Oscar Wilde.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:05
Oh, that's true, we'll have to do that next day, you'll have to come on again. And we can talk about our wild.

Tony Wolf 1:04:10
I'm talking about? Well. So that's up and I'll presumably write a few more articles for them. Most of the thinking about offering them some podcast episodes. But otherwise, my only real presence online is at a site called autodesk.com. Ale t dash d A th which contains some of my own writing some of my own practices in this regard, but also quite a lot of kind of related material. It's sort of my repository for when I find things like the sorts of things we've been talking about this evening in history in subculture and various other cult, the the cultural milieu when I find this stuff, I'll tend to write it out one way or the other and put it on that site. And this is specifically to my own interest in philosophy which is This idea of memento mori Ergo Carpe Diem, remember this and therefore seize the day. So that's that's kind of become my theme over the past three years.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:05:09
Amazing. I love that. Well, I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for joining me. Well, that is it for this show. The music is by eleventy seven. The theme song is called Wild. You can find it on Apple Music Spotify, or wherever you listen to music and this show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long as always Hail Satan. And thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STOut of White Supremacyb8ix6

2022-10-11T08:06:10Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STOut_of_White_Supremacyb8ix6
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, movements, groups, questions, white supremacist, life, person, conversation, white, hate, compassion, ideology, extremism, involved, black, violence, communities, folks, radicalization, hear
SPEAKERS
Brad Galloway, Stephen Bradford Long

Stephen Bradford Long 00:14
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long, and we're here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com. All right. As always, before we get started, I have to thank my patrons. My patrons are my personal lords and saviors, and I truly could not do this show without them. I believe in bringing free long form conversations to you every single week. But in order to do that, I need some help. I do all of the editing, all of the interviewing all of the producing all of this scheduling, it's a lot of work. And in order for it to be sustainable, I need your help. So if you love these conversations, and if you find benefit in these conversations, then go to Steven Bradford long.com. Nope. Wrong address. Then go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long for $1 $3 $5 a month you get extra content every single week. All right. So for this week, I have to thank Elizabeth Washburn Nixie Lionheart, Diane Koch Neff, Patricia Moreno and Scott Armstrong. Thank you so much. All right. With all of that out of the way, Brad Galloway, welcome to the show.

Brad Galloway 01:41
Thanks for having me in.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:41
You were suggested to me for an interview by our mutual friend John Morehead. I have done a lot of work with John Morehead. He's great. So special thanks to John, as well for this. He does interfaith dialogue. So anyone interested in that, go check out my previous conversations with John. But here at the beginning, tell us some about who you are and what you do.

Brad Galloway 02:07
So often I get this, this question because I work in, in this field where we, we researched terrorism, extremism, hate groups, all of this stuff. So it roots from many moons ago, back in the 1990s, where I myself became immersed in what back then was sort of a violent social movement coupled, you know, white supremacist skinheads, things like that. I had met the, you know, got involved through a friend, as people did back then. I often refer to this as sort of the pre internet days of recruitment and things like that, where people met in a pub and talked about politics. And I equate the relationship, though to be the reason why I got, you know, sort of involved is that I trusted this person, I knew him from around the neighborhood, and we were friends. And I ended up inadvertently, at that time, I had no ideology, I didn't really, like, know too much about what these groups were about, and all that kind of thing. But that grew over time. How old were you at that time, I was in my late teens. So at 19 years old kind of thing, as teenagers are doing. And as people are doing in general, we're looking for an identity, we're looking for a sense of belonging, we're looking for a place to hang our figurative hats on something, I had nothing going on in my life that was entirely positive. And I was kind of at a vulnerable point to I had, you know, struggled through school struggled through different aspects of my life. So that's, you know, a lot of times these groups are looking for folks that are looking for something to do with their time. And, and I was kind of a prime sort of target at that point. And yeah, so it went from there to to immersion, deeper and deeper into whatever the groups were at that dose at those times. And then I ended up relocating to the west coast where I became involved in like, organized hate movements for a number of years. And then ended up you know, getting disenfranchised with it all and leaving it all behind in 2011.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:18
And now here, here we are, and now you are, tell us some about the work you do now.

Brad Galloway 04:24
Yeah, so in the in the years to follow to 2011 I sort of got involved with one of the guests dreams or aspirations that I had was to finish a degree in criminology at some point in my life. So I went back to school and got involved with that and I inadvertently met some folks that were working in the in the area of extremism and terrorism research and ended up sort of getting invited along to work on some projects with them, but also doing a lot of interviews about my time that I spent in the movement. But I also met up with some other people who had formerly been involved in these movements, which are often called formers. And a group called Life After Hate, which is based out of Chicago. And from there, I got involved in their outreach work, which often was about education and talking about, you know, our stories of being involved in these groups, like the questions you had, how did you become involved with that kind of thing. So, you know, having civil society, give them a lens into what it's like in to understand how people join these groups, so that we can potentially figure out how we can prevent people from getting involved. So we went from there to working in the intervention space, so helping other people leave, I now that work with their exit USA program as exit specialist, which specifically looks at helping people leave right wing right wing extremist groups. And also I work with that organization up in Canada, similarly, called the organisation for prevention of violence in their evolved program, where they do similar work, but across ideological bounds. So left wing right wing, religiously motivated extremism, things like that we, the programs specifically look at trying to help people leave or D radicalized or whichever words you want to disengage whichever words you want to put on the, on the floor there. And then more broadly speaking, I'm the coordinator at the Center on hate bias and extremism, which looks at a wide variety of issues, from hate, hate crimes, hate incidents, to violent extremism, to general, just bias research. And we do a lot of outreach and webinars on these different subject matter. So yeah, that's a short summary of what I'm doing.

Stephen Bradford Long 07:06
It's a lot of yeah, you have your hands full. So whenever I hear stories of, of radicalization, I can't help but feel that there's a sort of unlucky randomness to it. And there, you know, those of us on the outside of this phenomenon, and I mean, I've been I experienced my own radicalization in various ways. And but I'm very much on the outside of the white nationalism, conversation. And I think for people like me who are looking at it, we there's always the question of why how, how does this happen? How does someone fall into something so dark and so extreme and so ugly? And hearing hearing your story there? It really is kind of the an unlucky drawl almost, there's a randomness to it. Yeah, there was there was this guy in your neighborhood, you he he seemed cool. And you're in the right place in life. And, and the the why, for me, personally, always seems so unsatisfying because of that. And do you Is that accurate? Like, is it just like, right place? Right time? Wrong place wrong time? And there's a there's a sort of unlucky randomness to how it is that that people get radicalized?

Brad Galloway 08:31
Yeah, I mean, I think I think that's a huge thing. I think opportunistic. You know, some of my colleagues look at it as like, they don't really even believe in recruitment. Like, it's not really like a recruiting strategy by these groups or something. It's just like, the person is interested in being something like, you're like the randomness, right? Like, I'm searching for identity. So here, I found something. And it's weird. I sometimes equate this to like, I had the one thing that mattered the most, and all the other stuff didn't really matter. And that was that I was just a white person. So for this group, I fit the credentials right away, like right out of like, there's nothing else that you really needed. Because that could come over time, like that could build over time. So yeah, opportunistically or randomly, this guy meets me at a pub, and says, hey, oh, you're in like Shambles in life. That sounds perfect for what I, this group that I'm part of. Right. And we didn't have the old awkward opener if it's not like, you've talked to some dude at the pub that you don't know, it's a person, you know. So that's kind of like, that opportunity was just there. And I came across it randomly that day, I walked into that pub, if I didn't, I don't know. I often say I was in a place at that time where I would have joined the IRA or would have joined some group anything that was just offering belonging and, you know, a potential for brotherhood and that feeling that we're all kind of looking for For a family that, you know, attachment to something, right, like in life

Stephen Bradford Long 10:05
now what was it? Was it a conscious decision on on their part like it? Are? Do you think that people are actively thinking like, Oh, this guy's life is fucked up and he needs order in his life I'm going to provide that is is that actually a conscious thought? Like, is it that Machiavellian? Or does it just happen?

Brad Galloway 10:24
Yeah, I think maybe know that it's, it's built to that point where there might be some of that, that kind of like, positioning where people are doing that. But I think at that time, it was really a, just a piece of randomness that just happened to be. And it was like, of course, I didn't like I said, I didn't really have ideology really going on at that point. Like I had, I was friends with people from all different ethnic community, like I had, like, I had to really accept the ideologies down the road, it wasn't like I was going in, like, and that's where I guess the counter argument is if like generationally, people become involved in like, hate movements, or extremism or whatever, like if their parents or if they're, they have family members or whatever, but that was not the case with me. So that that can happen in a different type of radicalization feel, it's like more of a cult feel like they grow up in the Klan, or they grow up in, you know, a cult of some sort. So then they just inadvertently are part of that that's just their life. So radicalization looks different, I think in that sense than it does for a kid who grew up in, you know, Toronto, in an urban setting and had no, there was no disposition to go be part of a hate group at all in my life, right.

Stephen Bradford Long 11:41
So so the Yeah, it almost sounds like, you know, how the same process by which I got into like, tabletop role playing games in college, like, like, oh, you know, there are these guys. They seem cool. It provides a sense of community. It provides a sense of, you know, there's a there's a sense of fun and mythmaking surrounding it. There's camaraderie, it gives me something to do in the evenings. Right. And there's a randomness to that and there's a there's a randomness to this as what you're describing as well, at least for you. And but the ideology came later is what I'm hearing you say So first there's the camaraderie there's the Brotherhood there's the hanging out in pubs at night talking about politics and talking about it he ology and just hanging out with the guys, etc. But then eventually the ideology comes. So what was the ideology? What were you? What were you taught? And then what did you believe?

Brad Galloway 12:39
So yeah, I mean, the base of the group that I immerse was immersed in was was they were so identified themselves as white power skinheads, right. So it was kind of like this loosely formed, not organized group of people that often had different ideologies underneath the the wider spread of right wing extremist ideologies. It would be like, there was some people who identified as like, part of the creativity movement, or the Christian identity movement. There was folks who said they were openness, there was folks who were just white white nationalists, or ideologues like they, there was a very bunch because it was kind of a collective bunch this group of but the one thing they did have that was attached sort of everybody together was they were sort of all part of this white power skinhead, kind of this so they, they had the bomber jackets, shaved heads, boots, you know, that that whole look. So they had that connectivity. And then some of them would be part of, I would learn later, they were part of broader, like, actual groups, like organized groups. But right from the outset, I didn't, I didn't know that I wasn't really privy to that kind of information. It was more like, you know, an ideology that I kind of got into with sort of anti government to white separatist kind of stuff, like, you know, what, what often is considered the, you know, this, this idea of white victimhood that whites are there, our rights are being taken away by broader governments and multiculturalism and all of those things. However, there was a whole whack of other ideologies that were kind of in and around and often it's Neo Nazism and Neo fascism, stuff like that. Like but for me, I I had studied history, like quite a bit just on my myself, so it's kind of like, I don't know if I, I don't really like the whole like Hitlerism, stuff like that. That stuff really was that was a stretch for me. So I remember

Stephen Bradford Long 14:49
you were like, Oh, that's a bit too far.

Brad Galloway 14:52
Well, because and then they get into like real conspiracy theory stuff, like, you know, Holocaust denial, that kind of stuff. And I'm like, I can can't really go there. Like, it's history, this, these are real things that happened. And these people are like trying to figure out ways to like, dislike, you know, remake history or whatever. And it's same with like the Christian identity movement. I never understood that they, because in the Bible, my understanding of the Bible always was, you know, Middle Eastern people that, you know, it's Judeo Christian. So there's a lot of Jewishness, and this is a largely anti semitic movement. So how could you be, you know, following a religion where Jesus, you know, it just didn't make sense

Stephen Bradford Long 15:37
for what I'm what I'm hearing here is that there is a is that there's a lot of intellectual diversity within white supremacy and maybe not as, and not just in terms of belief, but also in terms of temperament. And so there will be some people who are more prone to skepticism than others, there will be people who are more prone to self reflection than others. And I think that's helpful because I think a lot of the discourse online about white supremacy and white supremacist is that you are all equally brain zombified. It is all equally, all equally irrational and all equally untouchable. And basically, what I'm hearing you say is that that's not the case. That that is, it is not the case that, you know, when you were a white supremacist, you had doubts, because you had read history. And you you, you had a certain measure of skepticism. And I think that's helpful to, for people to understand that there is there is a spectrum of belief and temperament there.

Brad Galloway 16:47
And they talk about compassion was a huge thing, too. So a lot of this too, also leads to the help of people D radicalizing and people leaving these movements, right. Like, the disenfranchised, disenfranchised, you know, values of like, when you're in the movement, you're kind of looking at going, well, not that that's insane. Like, you can't believe that, right. And there was a lot of stuff that was going on inside of those movements that is going on, in now to like we see with a lot of the groups, there's like, trying to make sense of like, a person who identifies as not white being in a white supremacist group or of being in a right wing extremist group is very, that's has an odd look to it. I mean, we see what the proud boys there's, there's some folks there that clearly, you're like, This doesn't, this doesn't add up, this whole picture does not add up, which is stuff we should talk about more that this doesn't add up, these things don't add up. So don't join these things, because they're actually just not, it's all for naught. And, and that people leave, people can leave these groups. So myself, and there's many other people that, that I know that are in this space that work around this, that's we, we say like this, as much as you can get involved in it, you can also get not involved in it. And it has a lot to do with compassion, and people that you interact with, from other communities from, you know, multi ethnic communities. And that was helpful for me, because I worked out in public world, and security and things like that. And, you know, 80% of the staff, probably we're not, we're not white people. So I was living this life and these white groups, and then I was going to work and interacting with people. And you realize people are people, right? And it isn't what the movement is really disguising, you know, this whole, like, every one that they're out to get. No, they're not. You know, actually, I have to get you. Actually, most of my if not all of my interactions with folks from other communities. was good. They were you know, that was something that when you think back on it, you go, Well, how did I get to hear well, yeah, if we're living in this silo, with just these people telling you all of this, that, Oh, they're all bad. They're all bad. They're all but Well, that's a real awful place to live to that everything's just bad all the time. So it's that exhaustion of too much negativity in your life. And it really that's what it is. That's it's like, easy black and white answers for people. I know people want that. But when we kind of think about it just a little more, like when you hear someone denying the Holocaust, you're going that's an insane stance to take on that. Right? That that's fake. So how do you get there? How do you get into that place? Well, let's think and maybe educate ourselves. So that's another thing that's an intervention point of like, well, if we studied that a little more, or read about it a little more, we would know that this is an obvious falsehood. And we don't just go to black and black and white thought rather than trying to interrogate things a little more and learn, right? Yeah, it makes sense.

Stephen Bradford Long 19:55
Absolutely. And, and this gets to one of the big questions that came up on my Discord server, which is well, how do you communicate with people who are in various levels of radicalization. One of the things that I'm hearing you say is exposure to diversity works. Compassion works, and education works. And maybe those things won't work in every case. But those are really powerful tools is I think what I'm hearing you say,

Brad Galloway 20:26
exactly, yeah. And they don't all work for everybody. Right? Like, it's, you don't want to, you know, in the sense of working with folks that are leaving, sometimes it's really accountability that you start with. So you say, Be accountable. You were in these groups, you did this, you're part of this, you thought these bad things. But we can move past that, though. We can we can work on that we can say, Okay, I mean, it's similar to like, a lot of the stuff you see with cults in the United States, like, you know, people just in there in this vacuum, they're stuck there, and they don't know how to get out. Well, part of it is just learning about other stuff that's out there. Right? It might be just branching out. And if they've been telling you not to eat at these restaurants, because that goes against the culture, whatever, we'll go eat at that restaurant. Screw it picked a chance to take the plunge, right? Like that's, that's the first thing.

Stephen Bradford Long 21:16
It reminds me of a book that I'm reading right now called the constitution of knowledge that everyone should go read. But one of the things that he I'm forgetting the name of the author right now, I will link it in the show notes. Oh, Jonathan Rosch. Don't, Jonathan Rock, rock rush, something like that. But he basically says we are incredibly stupid as individuals we are incredibly smart with as, as a diversity of opinions as a diversity of, of backgrounds. And so we are smarter, we are more compassionate, the, the more interaction we have with different kinds of people. And but we but on our own. And if we are only with people who are just like us, we are really fucking stupid. And we are really, and our world is tiny, and, and it is easy to fall down rabbit holes of delusion. If we don't go to that restaurant, if we don't read those books, if we don't listen to perspectives, that might rub us the wrong way. That's really, really, really important. And to be compassionate, so So is that your is that your personal story of being D radicalized? Did people show you compassion? did? What? How did how did that process work for you? Well, I

Brad Galloway 22:49
think back to a time, and this is well, at the very beginning of the time that I was involved, and were. So I got into a fight. And I ended up in the hospital and and the person who saved my life, the doctor was an Orthodox Jewish guy. Right? And there I am this, you know, whatever you want to refer to me as a Nazi, or whatever, at that time. This guy didn't say anything about that, though. I'm a person, I'm a human being, and he's helps me and he saves my life. And, you know, so at the time, I thought, oh, whatever, you know, I'm not going to talk too much about my feelings on that, I'm going to bury that, right. But like later, I will think back to those moments. And I go, Well, that's, that's how people should be. Right? That that's the human kind that we are supposed to be right that were there. And I didn't deserve that at that time. But he didn't care. He was there to serve humans. And that's what he does for a living, even ones that are completely abhorrent, and that hate him, obviously, but his deal was not to say anything about that, and just to just to just be a really great person, right. And that's when I think back on that amongst the other, like, list of times where folks were I didn't deserve positive treatment, that I got positive treatment from them. You learn a lot from those those occasions, and you want to some somehow, how do you think about reciprocating that? Now, like, and that's part of the work through Life After Hate and helping other people lead these movements and seeing that there's, there's, you know, there's light on the other side, and that these, these extremist groups and traditions within these groups are, are detrimental to society and people out there, but they're also detrimental to the individual who's involved in it. And it destroys those individuals just as much as it's destroying families and communities and all of that, right. So it's a multifaceted sort of, you know, approach that we have have to think a lot harder about where we were in what we were doing. But also, like, wider society, what does it look like? But it's people like that, that are sort of calling humans back in, like I. So in my work where I've been invited to go and talk at a synagogue before, and that's, I think about that, too. Why do they want to invite former Neo Nazis into their place? Because it's fostering dialogue, and it's fostering healing for them. And they say they're getting something out of this. Understanding why people are hating, right. And it's a really amazing thing, that that is when these conversations happen, because we can learn so much about, you know, what, what we've done wrong, but we can also learn about what what we can do, right? And what how we've, you know, it's better when we're cohesive and working together, then working against each other in our own little silos, right. And, and it takes really, really magnificent people to be able to do these things and those communities, it isn't for everyone.

Stephen Bradford Long 26:07
It's not usually, and and so, you know, one, one of the things that I always want to be cautious about when I have conversations like this is to really clarify like, the communicating with people who hate you, is should only be done, if, if you are in the place to do it, and you're the right person to do it. And a lot of us are not going to be and that is okay. And it's okay to be there too. Yeah, it is. It is absolutely okay to be there. So. So, you know, if say, if you know, you're trans or you're gay, or you're a person of color, or what have you, or a woman, you know, talking to someone who believes that you are subhuman. You don't have to sacrifice yourself for the greater good. And so I always want to put that out there of whatever I have these types of conversations. So I'm what one of the questions that always comes up for me, is what is it about young men? And these types of movements? Because so often, you know, there there, I do see the occasional story of sis women kind of getting into these hate movements, and they absolutely exist. And but more often than not, it seems to be young men first, is that perception? Correct? And secondly, why what is it about young men that makes them vulnerable to this?

Brad Galloway 27:50
Okay, so the assumption is correct, when it's if you look at numbers alone, that that, like extremism across the border terrorism across the board is not entirely a male thing. But it is mostly, like I would say a larger percentage of men get involved in terrorism or extremism, generally speaking, than then do women. And you're, you're banging on about it that is solely not a male thing. There are 100% There are women who are involved in this enter very charismatic and are leaders and are part of the the wider issue of terrorism and extremism and hate groups and all that. But on the question of men, so vulnerabilities often come up, and mental health often comes up. Now, I'm not putting that as I'm not putting those things aside. But I'm also saying that, particularly white males, there's something there that there's a as we see, in America right now, there's a wide door that's open right now for white males and their identity to be like, right there. You know,

Stephen Bradford Long 29:03
like, just in their face. In other words, just very, very, ever present. Why is that thing? Why is that right now?

Brad Galloway 29:10
I know when I was in the movement, it was often like, if I'm walking down the street, people look at Oh, my God, it's a Nazi person, or they don't like that. But today, it's like, you can have a trucker convoy that's organized by extremists, but that's okay. Because it's not really extreme. Like, there's questions. You know what I mean? Like, there wouldn't have been a question like, they wouldn't have platformed me when I was in the movement in the late 90s and early 2000s. Like the local news wouldn't have been like, let's bring that Nazi guy onto our show to talk to

Stephen Bradford Long 29:43
him. In other words, there's there's there's a plausible deniability, is that what you're saying for like some people and like, Are they are they supremacist? Are they radicals? Are they not? Like, do we really know? Do they have issues with a Vedic writer? Or Did you know Did they play to me It's Call of Duty. Okay, got it.

Brad Galloway 30:01
But that comes up, it seems like only for this white populace that's involved in extremism. Because when you talk about a black or brown person who's involved in extremism, it's automatically devil worshipping black. Oh, hottest blah, blah, blah, right? We

Stephen Bradford Long 30:18
give white people the benefit of the doubt in a way we don't give people of color.

Brad Galloway 30:22
Oh, it and it's just not like it this thing is happening time and time again, where the media does this where you know, even some of the recent horrific attacks that have happened, they're like, Well, if we thought about, like, the amount of time that he was spending online, I'm like, Yeah, we're thinking about that. But what about the fact that he could have just been an ideologically radicalized terrorist, white person?

Stephen Bradford Long 30:52
Why did that? Why not? What about him just believing it? In other words, yeah, like, this is what he believed this was his worldview. And therefore he acted out on it.

Brad Galloway 31:04
Yeah, saying that out loud, is okay to do. But the immediate sort of steps very, you know, it's a different thing when it comes up when it's somebody else when it's, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 31:17
no one I'm not, I'm a non white male community? In other words,

Brad Galloway 31:20
exactly. So it's, that almost serves as an empowerment as well for white men to get involved in these things, too. Because it's like, well, they're just going to write me off as mentally ill person or whatever. So, you know, does that give give them some fruit to go want to be part of these things? It plays into that whole victim narrative with them with these groups, right? Because the, you know, it's, it's the white, the whole, like, white male thing goes a little further in the sense of, you know, they feel like they're attacked right now. And in society, because of all the multiculturalism that's going on, you know, so they have the great replacement stuff, they have the white genocide, all of these different things that are being pushed to sort of fragment and divide. And that's what extremism is, it's, it seeks to fear and division, right? So that those are two major caveats of it. So that's what they're doing with this stuff. And, and then for painting the picture of the poor white man, right? You know, they've been victimized or they're, you know, traumatized by all these black people coming and taking their jobs or whatever it is, right. And that's, that's where again, so linking back to my story was kind of looking at that I'm like, picking my job, like, what does this mean? Like when they're when they're saying this? So they're all working at McDonald's, and I don't want to work there. They're not taking my jobs, they're actually coming here and contributing to our economy. And I'm thinking about, and I'm trying to, like, think about this. When I was in the movement, I'm like, I can't make up a reason for this. Like, there's no way to conspiracy theories this, these people are actually just doing jobs that

Stephen Bradford Long 33:17
right, so that rationality came in again for you. And it was like, Wait a second, this is bullshit.

Brad Galloway 33:24
This is trash. So what do we what do we call it right? Like we, we gotta call it what it is. It's not that's not a real thing. It's fundamentally flawed from the from the outset. And the fact that 1000s and 1000s of immigrants are coming here and taking all of our jobs away. It's not true. That's that's just not it is

Stephen Bradford Long 33:43
not true. And yeah, so and so it's almost like, you know, this coddling of, of white males that our culture does. So whenever, whenever there is an atrocity that happens at the hands of a white extremist of a white supremacist, there's this coddling and like this, delicately stepping around the issue being like, oh, you know, maybe maybe he was a white nationalist, or maybe he played Call of Duty too much or whatever. And it reminds me of it reminds me of when Sam Harris said that oh, maybe the shooter in New Zealand maybe he didn't actually believe it. Maybe it was just memes. And maybe he was just meaning to like, an extreme degree and like pushing meaning to an extreme degree, which which denigrates the fact that this that that guy actually believed it. He's he said, what he believed. And

Brad Galloway 34:50
so he filmed it live.

Stephen Bradford Long 34:52
He wrote it, he filmed it live, he streamed it because he believed it. Other than belief, other than you know, this is something Got that these guys actually believe, and therefore they act on it. Are there any other components that that lead into radicalization or lead into violent acts other than just belief? Like, are there social socio economic elements? Like what what are the other components that lead to acts of radical violence?

Brad Galloway 35:22
Yeah, I mean, there, there definitely are things like that, like, there are like, you know, there are situations where, you know, we had Oak Creek, that that horrific scene that happened with the, the offender there who was part of the wider spread hate movement, I think it was like hammer skins or something like that. And then it was also, he also was a vet. Right. So when now we're bringing in some actual risk factors, you know, gone and served in the military come home, probably not the right. That whole agency or problem that we have with not looking after our vets in the US and Canada, and mental health, and those things, these are real things that do happen. So there could be scenarios like that, where folks are just totally, you know, affected by an ideology is there too. So these are all playing roles in the same way. There's also like, when we think about some of the, the attacks that have happened, some of them are like, you know, isolated, they have adverse childhood experiences they have like, there's like psychological things that throughout their life, these people have it, they've ended up in violence, they were going to end up in violence, but which type we don't really know. But there are definitely risk factors. So when they talk about looking at risk assessments of people who are going to radicalize to violence, I mean, there's like, there's various ones that are used in our line of work that like, look at that kind of stuff. But it's, you know, when we when we think about this idea, and I don't believe it's new, there are a lot of people that do but it's acceleration ism. Right? So where are these acceleration, acceleration movements are looking to just accelerate everything to the race war to the end of times, right. So that's not a that's not a new thing. It's, I think it's particularly within white racist movements, has been around for quite a long time, I think about the 1980s with the order. And then going around, and suggestively rubbing porn stores and things like that, to take the money back, you know, to rob, our, you know, the armored trucks and steal the money from designers occupied government, and, you know, take it back for the white cars or whatever, you know, and then we think of the area and Republican Army like them doing those things. So a lot of these things can be like, you know, these folks that are sitting there, wondering why the world is the way it is, and we're not looking out, we're not doing enough in society to not allow it to get so fragmented and divided the way that it is, right? So mean, we know we historically, we know that these groups exist, and they have existed through time. And we know what they what they want to do. So getting to the point of like, violence that involves white males, it's like, well, have we done enough? And that's the education piece. I don't think we have we're not doing enough in schools. We're not doing enough in our homes and the way we're bringing up kids, and I think some some some of the risk factors like particularly isolation, and then getting involved in, in certain groups and those risk factors, people, it's again, it's like the media, the way they treat these things afterwards, you're like, well, it could have been, that's how parents well, I don't know, it's maybe it's a phase. Well, if your kids walks in and has a big swastika on their shirt, I would ask questions about the fates. So they don't often

Stephen Bradford Long 39:09
so what are so you say that our society is not doing enough to to protect and to protect society, from young white men and to protect young white men? Both right? And I honestly believe that like, you know, through history and every culture, young men are our a very powerful source of trouble and I really believe that so much of Civilization is built or, or developed to, like, curtail the worst excesses of young men. Right. So what is what are the ways in which you believe society our current society is failing young white men in particular,

Brad Galloway 39:57
what I mean when we when we talk about things like suicide And, and mental health and things like this, there's arguably been an uptick in, in this in this space of, of, you know, particularly over the last couple of years to see like the, the COVID, 19 pandemic, things like this, where people are isolated, they are they are at home, they're alone, they're there, you know, what do they do they go to the internet, they go looking for, you know, so that where do we get? What information stream are we providing to society? Right? So we have all these things that that have come up over the last, I don't know, let's go with decade. Because we can. And, and let's say, you know, things like Q Anon, let's say things like the alt right, let's say, right, so they all have these platforms online. And then when we get into a place of risk, like the COVID-19 pandemic, so you get people in the door at, oh, what about vaccines? Right? What about that, but then extremist groups are like, cool. We can get people through the door on that, right? And then we'll slowly give them the race thing. And that we're being told, Oh, the government is doing this. So now they hate the government. And it seems like pathways that one of my colleagues wrote a book called The extreme gone mainstream. So then we think about what happens on our, in our media, right? So we have all this stuff that's being streamlined down below the say Fox News, right? So it's come comes from a big company like that. And these folks are sitting there at home going, Wow, yeah, I feel like, that's kind of true. You know, I did lose a job to you know, so and so. But, but did you that doesn't matter, the government's making you take these vaccines, the government's telling you that critical race theory, blah, blah, blah, right, like, so now, you've got people sitting there going, Oh, that's interesting, right, that is happening. But is it? Because now where are they getting their information from? They're going to read it, they're going to 4chan, they're going to all these other places that are not so this is resources?

Stephen Bradford Long 42:11
This is really interesting. So it's almost like, would you say that maybe there is a point of discussion or anxiety in our culture that needs to be addressed? And the, the, the far right gets to it first, or takes advantage of it? They love it? Right? And so I and and i i saw this firsthand, in regards to online, public trashing in some leftist spaces are big, it is obvious to anyone who moves in online spaces on the left, which I do, I'm very much a leftist. And I move in those spaces. And in those LGBTQ spaces, I am myself gay, right. And, but, but there are some really, really toxic online spaces. And it's worth talking about. However, the Wright took the phenomenon. They took the term canceled culture, they completely ran with it, they made it completely radioactive. And, and instead of making it a problem of online culture, and and dysfunction in certain specific communities, they turned it into this existential nightmare that is coming for all of us. Right. But the but what happened, what I observed happening then is then the conversation on the left about it shut down. The the important, nuanced, thoughtful, this isn't the end of the world. This isn't a catastrophe, this is unique to specific communities. But a movement needs to be self reflective, if it's going to succeed. And so we need to explore this into that conversation. Shut down. Because the far right, turned it into this boogeyman and then use it to radicalize people. Would you agree with that analysis? I get? And so people would people, people would always be like, Stephen, don't, you know, don't we shouldn't talk about various sorts of things. Because the that is just a that that is just how people get radicalized. And I'm like, no, no, no, no people it's getting, it's being used as a radicalization tool because they got to it first. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be talked about. Does that make sense? Am I right about that, or or am I completely off? When it comes to that?

Brad Galloway 44:38
We have to think about these things. We have to think about like, oh, is so and so using x y Zed scheme to get people radicalized? Yes, they are doing that. Yes, the far right is doing it. I know I was in the groups. So Right. From my perspective, that yes, the far right shows up at and default, rallies are whatever they want to call them. And we're anti Racist Events. And they show up and they do dumb things, to pin it on them. They do and

Stephen Bradford Long 45:09
to provoke and to, and to take pictures. And then they take pictures and post it on Twitter and Reddit. And it's like, look at this look. Yeah, look at this is the ruin of Western civilization. Yeah, exactly.

Brad Galloway 45:22
They particularly do that kind of stuff. Because it's like, and let's, let's not get crazy here. They're a very, very small minority right wing extremists, which is great. And we should celebrate that. But that doesn't mean we want them to be a bigger majority. Right? Like, it's, it's like I'm talking to worldwide, I'm talking internationally, these right wing extremists, let's not give them the fuel for their fire. Let's not say, well as the Trump, I don't want to, I don't want to say that because I I am a firm believer that humanity will win this crisis that we're in. But we have to also say, no, but this is real. And people are really getting killed by these groups. And this is like a real thing. And the way that they do things, it increasingly gets more cutting, and they do more things that, you know, that we're like, people seem to be surprised about, and then that oh, well, that's mental health as a video games, no, no, it's still the same things that they're doing. It's just they're choosing to do it. Now they're using the internet, they're using these new tools, they're using all the things that they can to do this. And it's it's a, it's kind of a well oiled machine, when you look at it in a lot of ways because they know the response, they're going to get beforehand, right? Like, they know that, you know, the left is gonna go crazy when they do some little when they go down to a protest, and they do something, and they they know the responses are going to get so and they're hoping in this, I say this all the time. They don't care about what the what the attention is negative, positive, they love all the attention. If they can get if Richard Spencer can get punched out on camera, that's still attention for the for the alt right. I know that sounds ridiculous, but it's but it's still

Stephen Bradford Long 47:09
it's still, to quote Oscar Wilde The only thing worse than being talked about as not being talked about, and that is the philosophy of the white supremacist. So yes, so is the solution then to not freak out is for the left to not freak out to is the solution for an AED. But how do we navigate that because this is a real problem. People are are genuinely like you just said genuinely getting killed. And, and but but these white supremacist groups are counting on the left to lose our mind are counting that they are counting on the left to have a very extreme response. So as the answer to not have an extreme response, like how do we navigate this?

Brad Galloway 47:57
I think we do need to respond, but we need to respond in the sense and a lot of yeah, they don't like this stuff they don't like so my thing because I work in the prevention space, primary, secondary, tertiary prevention space in this like trying to look at extremism and and look at right wing extremism, and how can we, yeah, we have like this space where we're helping people like leave the groups but like, we want to get in front of it, though. We want to be like, we don't want people joining. So how can we do that? How can we get in front of like all prevention? We can't, we can't find a way to fund that. We can't do that. Well, if we can't do that. Those are the conversations that need to be happening, though. Right? Like we're having this conversation. Well, how did you join? Well, how would you not have joined? Those are good conversations. What What would have made you say, You know what, this guy's bogus. Screw this guy. I'm gonna go join the local soccer club instead or

Stephen Bradford Long 48:49
whatever. Yeah. Or join the local d&d club, or whatever.

Brad Galloway 48:52
Yeah, whatever. pro social activities you can become involved in that aren't the white power skinhead scene. Right? Right, right. Like, what? What's the alert? The alert should not be there. There shouldn't be that that alert are there to join hate groups? Why hate groups? What does? What did they do? Like, we really need to think about our society in the sense of, oh, we have these freedom of speech laws or whatever it is, like, okay, but do but who's how are they being used as an advantage for these hate groups? Right? So when we think about the gun debate to the right loves that one, right, because it really just divides people and back to the the notion of division and fear. That's what extremism is. So if they can get, they'll divide, they'll seek to divide wherever they can. So we need to get in that space and go, Well, how do we prevent the division? So it's not even like talking about racism and all that stuff? How do we just not divide us ourselves up as Americans or Canadians or as Europeans or whatever? Why are we

Stephen Bradford Long 49:59
the universal human entity? In other words, how do we how do we emphasize universal humanity? I am a firm believer in what I what I think is the fact that the most successful human rights groups are the groups that emphasize our universal humanity. And that for whatever reason works, and emphasizing our ultimate sameness, even if we have differences, and we are at the most base fundamental level, gay people, black people, different nationalities, people who speak different languages, or have different religions, on the most fundamental level, we are all the same. And I think that the movements that are successful the like pro social and humanitarian movements that are successful are the movements that emphasize that and, you know, all of the all of what you're saying is really relevant. For me personally right now, because last week, someone with so I am a minister in the Satanic Temple. I don't know if you know that. I don't know if John told you that. Okay. So I'm a minister in the Satanic Temple. And the Satanic Temple is based on you know, fallen, tenets of, of compassion and reason and justice and, and science and so on. Last weekend, someone with a god t shirt came and set fire to our headquarters, and say, Salem, Massachusetts, and it did not insignificant damage to the front of the building and to the porch. Fortunately, help came just in time for it to not get into the temple headquarters and not destroy all of the art and so on. And that, you know, really sacred space for our religious community. But the founder of the temple co founder, Lucien Greaves asked, asked me on to have a conversation about it. And I came on to his podcast yesterday, two days ago, ready to basically, you know, this is this is a battle between good people and evil people was kind of my attitude. This is the battle between between theocrats and pluralists. This is a battle between, you know, Christian nationalists and, and those of us who are pro plurality and equality and, and Lucien did something that I thought was very wise, where he kind of put on the brakes. And he was like, well, in essence, he said, you don't actually know anything about this guy. And this is an opportunity for us all, to take a step back, and examine how we got here, and how this polarization happened in the first place. And so instead of doubling down on to these, these turf wars in this battle, and this us versus them, let's not have that be our primary focus, let's instead, you know, take this as an opportunity to, to reflect and to self reflect on how we can create a better society and how we got here, that that's the kind of the same thing that I'm hearing you say is, you know, let's focus on, let's, let's find ways to focus on our shared humanity. And that doesn't mean that these aren't very real and profound divisions. They are that and so this is not to de emphasize that at all. But yeah, so so everything you're saying is resonating quite a bit right now.

Brad Galloway 53:52
Yeah, I mean, and I think that, to be honest, that if we started there, say we had the gate and we all open the gate, and we go, yeah, okay, we're starting at this level of humanity, right? Rather than starting at, oh, you're different. Like, looking at everything that's, you know, like, and that's where I think of that moment where I'm sitting there in that pub, having that drink with that guy who, you know, introduced me to the movement. You know, if I had said, why, but why are you doing this? Why do you feel you know, and just ask them, Are you okay?

Stephen Bradford Long 54:29
Bro, are you okay? Yeah,

Brad Galloway 54:31
how are things? Like, that seems like a weird thing to offer your buddy that you hadn't seen in four years? You know what I mean? Like, right, right? Right. You run into a guy, you know, and you're like, guess what? Nazis. And like, that's a weird thing. Like, that's a strange that's a strange combo opener. Right? So like, instead of us and not judging him for what he's become involved in either though, just saying, Hey, man, you know, how's things going? Are you alright? Like, what's what's been happening right now And that's that's the thing like, some, somebody like that is in crisis, that when they're telling you that they're part of this hate group and they're part of this thing, you know? How did they get there? Right? Like that should be our thought our notion as human beings going, Hmm. Well, that's, you know, that's, that's tough what's what's the trouble like how did you get how, you know, your world, that kind of thing. And

Stephen Bradford Long 55:28
and that's a tall order though because I think the first response is going to be revulsion and disgust. Right. Like, like it hits our disgust response so deeply that that next question of, are you okay will probably for for a lot of us will just never come? Like the first response for a lot of us will either be intrigue or get the fuck away as fast as we can. Right?

Brad Galloway 55:53
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, it's, if we cared more about individuals, other people in the world, I think we might be better off. I mean, I hear all these all the time, people, you know, telling me that it's because I felt lost or lonely or isolated as a person. That's why I went to this because they they welcomed me with open arms into into these groups, right? Yeah. And that's it. That is it like they are there. They're like, Well, come on, let me show you the right side of every argument. Because it's so black and went like that, right? And that's, that's, instead of saying like, Oh, well, that's interesting. There should be another door that's open beside it saying, well, we'd like to call you back in all of these folks that are gone down these roads, right. And I know, there's movements out there who are like, you know, doing so much work on the ground on anti racism and anti fascism and all that stuff, which is amazing work as well. But it's like, sometimes we got to think, think big and go with these are human beings to the, you know, I saw those faces that they just arrested the other day in Idaho. And I'm like, Man, that's challenging. that's those are 31 people who have been sucked into these movements. And enter and we're planning to do something horrifying there.

Stephen Bradford Long 57:23
For people who live under a rock. Can you explain that situation that at that, because they they were a group of radicalized white supremacist or something going to a gay pride event? Right, right to present a cause violence? And there were 30 of them? It? Yes. So yeah, that's that's what happened there for people who haven't heard the news. Yeah.

Brad Galloway 57:44
And if you haven't heard that news, that's really too bad days. They need to up up their game on news out there.

Stephen Bradford Long 57:50
So pull your head out of your goddamn ass.

Brad Galloway 57:55
But yes, exactly. And but that's, I think you've brought up a really, really big point that we need to recognize is that these things are there, these hate these groups are there, and they are planning to do this stuff. So we need to be aware of that. But in my work, I don't I don't want Ryder trucks or whatever kind of truck it was U haul truck full of white supremacist going to going to do horrible things to members of the gay community in that area. I I don't I don't want to hear but I want to hear nothing about these types of groups, right. But that's the thing is that we're so divided right now that these groups are flourishing. This is a, unfortunately, a ground where they feel these groups are feeling like there is some acceptance in America right now that they can exist.

Stephen Bradford Long 58:46
They feel empowered. In other words, yeah,

Brad Galloway 58:49
we got to do a lot better to say, No, we're not. Society doesn't accept this. This is this is not just people with mental health issues. This is these are ideologically motivated extremists, that we really need to think about what we've done wrong to have those 31 people involved in that. What are what are we doing? We would say

Stephen Bradford Long 59:09
it's an indictment of our culture that these groups exist.

Brad Galloway 59:13
Yeah, what are we doing? Why are we running on? Often I feel like when I'm helping people who are leaving these groups, they say, I don't even believe in my own constitution anymore. I'm like, that's a big thing to say.

Stephen Bradford Long 59:30
What does that mean? Like they don't believe in the American Constitution, or they don't believe in their own own,

Brad Galloway 59:35
like their own personal but also, yeah, the American Constitution. They're like, because they were like radicalized, and they went into these groups, and they gave such a different version of Americanism, how they utilize the Constitution. Now, they're sitting there and they're like, I'm now beholden to nothing. I don't believe in anything, you know, and I'm glad that they've left the movements but I'm like, that's really a shame. We have people who are like stripped of their, of any

Stephen Bradford Long 1:00:03
of any anchor have any have any kind of ethical mooring? In other words, yeah. Do you have? Do you have time for some questions from my Discord server? i We are an hour in. But this is this has been a great conversation. Do you have some time for a few questions? Sure. Okay. Yeah, so a lot of people were really interested in this conversation. So here's an interesting question. What is the state of the country? I? So in the United States, you're in Canada, correct? Yep. So let's just change this question to in general, what is the state of, of white supremacy now versus when you were actively a white supremacist in the 90s.

Brad Galloway 1:00:52
So it has increasingly been getting worse in Canada in the US. And I would say a lot of that has to do with similar divides like are going on in the United States, like we have specific lines drawn between, you know, people who are seen as liberal people who are seen as conservative people who are, so it's like, you're, they're building up these silos. So in extremism This is that's the premium division thing. And the fear thing, oh, afraid of the other afraid of what could be afraid of this afraid of, and that's where we're kind of living in that in those notions, and particularly, something that's become a widespread issue is the sort of the anti government so our prime minister particularly has been the face of a lot of these extremist groups sort of like entry point, like anti Trudeau anti anti government, anti that so you get a wider range of people that are willing to get involved on the onset of like, okay, because people don't like the COVID-19, or people don't like how we responded to that. So you've got people in, in that sense, and then the extremist groups come in and go and what about this group would have been three percenters would have been the problem. What about this would have, then there's all these options that are kind of thrown out there. And so in that sense, researchers are saying that there's there has been an uptick of, of groups forming different types of movements crossed from anything from accelerationism to the alt right to anti government type of group militia type of groups. So yeah, it's it's the landscape is looking. Unfortunately, it's looking pretty grim right now in Canada, when it comes to I think the two provinces that had the most significant rises in hate crimes and incidents were Ontario and British Columbia, over the last while, and so we're looking at, yeah, there's some big things going on. Yeah.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:02:54
Does he still struggle occasionally with a knee jerk reaction thoughts that match his old ways of thinking, like in the heat of the moment? Does he have racist thoughts that he needs to stop and reconfigure?

Brad Galloway 1:03:06
Yeah, for sure, in the first number of years, as as I was getting further and further away from things. Now, management, in my mind can manage those things. As more of a like, I'm recognizing it, and I'm going okay, I'm accountable for that thought. I don't need to, you know, mindfulness. Yeah, it's just saying, Well, I was around it for 13 years. So of course, those thoughts are gonna come up, it would be a horrible life for me to say, oh, no, it never happens. You know, of course, it does sometimes. But you can manage those things. I at least I can manage those things in such a way that they don't, they don't come up like they they used to. And, you know, they mean something much different now than they meant when I was in the movement, right. So I love

Stephen Bradford Long 1:03:51
that because, you know, I think that emphasizes the fact that it's what we do that matters, not, not the thoughts. It's how we act on the thoughts that really matter. And so, you know, I was raised as kind of a super conservative fundamentalist Christian, I still have homophobic reactions. I am gay. Right? I am gay. And I will still have knee jerk homophobic reactions, especially towards other gay men sometimes. And, and it it arises. And I note that feeling, I know that I let it go, and I don't act on it, and it dissipates. And it's almost like, each time I do that, it gets fainter and fainter and it loses more and more power over me. So

Brad Galloway 1:04:43
yeah, it works like that. That's fine. I mean, it. I think the approach we take to it is what's most important, right? Like that's, you know, and that's in our work, too. When we're when I'm working with people, it's like I'm not there to brainwash them or turn everybody into a liberal or whatever. You want to say, like, that's the that's the way that right looks at the work that we do. They're like, Oh, we're turning everyone into a liberal, like, whatever CRT I'm like, No, we're helping people disengage from groups and get out of hate groups, and then work on their ideology across time. Right? It's different for everybody who goes through that process. And even like what you were just saying, like you identify as a certain group, but you're still like, oh, I have these thoughts. Yeah, but I know how to combat these thoughts, though. Yep. So. And I'm the same way to like, it's true

Stephen Bradford Long 1:05:33
of all of us. We all have those skeletons in our closets. Every single one of us we are human beings. We're not free. None of us are free from prejudice in some way, right?

Brad Galloway 1:05:44
No, I struggle with it often because I live in it in the Bible Belt of Canada. Okay, so I'm not a religious person. I have no

Stephen Bradford Long 1:05:51
Canada as a Bible Belt, Jesus Christ, I'm so sorry.

Brad Galloway 1:05:55
We, we do and it's a, it's an odd scenario to be living around. Not not just regular folks that just go to church on Sundays, like these are evangelicals mostly, and who are committed to wanting others to be part of whatever it is that they're and see, I was part of something. So I'm kind of like, I don't want to be part of anything. Like, I don't want to be part of a extreme anything, I want to be a nothing. Can I just be a nothing? That's what I want to be, you know? So. And I don't mean that, in a sense, I'm a person, but I'm like, just, you know, in the sense of religion, I'm kind of like, I can't devote time and energy to something that like that. I can't, because I know I'll go to the extreme measures. And

Stephen Bradford Long 1:06:42
it is general a very costly hobby. I will say that as someone who who is a minister, it takes up a lot of time.

Brad Galloway 1:06:50
I'm worried about that. That's a that's a object that I know with work, family, all these different things that are going on in my life. I just don't have that kind of, I don't think I could put what is needed into it. And that's just so I choose that is and often that comes off as Oh, you're not really so you hate? No, I don't hate for that. They can do whatever they need to do. That's not the point. I'm just talking about my personal thing.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:07:17
It's just not you. Yeah. But it also sounds like you have an awareness of your own proclivities towards extremism. And so it's almost like if you're going to do something, you have to do it in the most extreme fucking way imaginable. Right. And which, so you just know that right, right. Right. That makes complete sense. Here's, here's a really great question. A former White supremacist once said The impetus for him to change was the extension of undeserved care. We tend to demonize such people until the change of heart, but perhaps you could ask how a more difficult extension of compassion to the allegedly undeserving might make an impact?

Brad Galloway 1:08:02
Yeah, I think I've touched on that earlier. Absolutely. Perhaps a little here.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:08:07
I don't know if there's much more to say on that. I think that's just a really good framing of that A, the the way that was phrased, we tend to demonize such people until a change of heart. But perhaps, but a, a more difficult extension of compassion to the allegedly undeserving can make an impact. Yeah.

Brad Galloway 1:08:27
I love to set it better.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:08:28
I love that framing. That's good. One person asks, What does he think of Black Lives Matter?

Brad Galloway 1:08:37
Sure. What do I think about it? I think that yeah, I mean, it's, it's a, it's a movement that is, you know, just like a lot of the other civil rights movements that have been passed. There's folks that need to speak out. I'm here as an ally in the background. And I love what they're doing. They're often framed in my area of work, I often see really, really awful things when referring to that, that movement. And that's unfortunate, because I do know, people that are legitimately on the ground, doing work for the increasing rates for you know, bipoc people, and that is something that is amazing, and amazingly difficult and hard, and has been centuries old fight and struggle, and I know it will continue. But I think that, you know, there's Yeah, it's pretty close to home. I have some have some colleagues and friends who are who are doing this work and I'm, you know, I feel for them. So

Stephen Bradford Long 1:09:52
beautiful. Let's see, one person asks, Does he think there's anything that could have prevented his radicalization in the first place where that could have interrupted the process. I think we've kind of explore touched on that through this conversation. One thing that you brought up was just someone asking, are you okay? Like, what's going on? It's just someone extending that having extending that gesture being like, what's going on? Are you okay? Um, yeah. Sounds like one thing that that would have possibly disrupted that process. Is there anything else?

Brad Galloway 1:10:28
Sure. Better parenting? That's a weird one. But, you know, I know if my kid was suited up in white power gear or whatever, I'd have some more questions for them, then. I probably shouldn't wear that. Or whatever. Like, you know, and it's no fault of them there. There are folks who are like, you know, from a different generation that are like, didn't really know what to make of this whole like weird socio cultural skinhead. Dope. And

Stephen Bradford Long 1:11:01
now there's no excuse, though. Now there's,

Brad Galloway 1:11:03
there's no excuse. It's pretty damn public. The information and it's right out there. I mean, yeah, people should know what that what that is now. So. But yeah, I think so. Back to the question, though, so better and better parenting. So education, as well, for me could have prevented a little bit more of this myself being a little more, like I said earlier about when I met that guy, in the pub, if I had asked like, well, what more is this about? Like, what is this really about? What is this movement, really, but if I had some more instinctual questions about like, you know, what is this group really better? And I think if I had learned that it was just about violence, and like, beating up black people, and you know, hate music and all that stuff, I think I probably I might have been like, I don't know what this is maybe. Not for me. Right. But the way it was posed, I didn't ask questions. I just wanted to be part of something. So, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:12:02
you just use the term hate music was did music play a big role for you? Was there like a genre of musics geared towards white supremacist that helped in the radicalization process?

Brad Galloway 1:12:15
100% And it's like, it's still there today. I mean, it's I'm, I'm here now doing research on it. But it's, it's interesting. How it plays a role. And that's sort of the when you talk about the white boy power skinhead movement without the music, it's not, it's not really much, right, because there's the bands, there's the there's the way people dress, they will all wear the shirts with the band names on them. A lot of the groups were like associated with music as well. So that's, it's a moneymaker for the movement as well.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:12:47
What's the genre? Like? Is it punk? Is it metal? Like, is it what what kind of music is it?

Brad Galloway 1:12:53
It's unbelievably diverse in genres. There's country, there's hip hop, there's EDM, there's National Socialist black metal, there's black metal, there's, you know, folk kind of music, there's the everything under the sun, that they, because what they're trying to do is they're trying to create a place a space where people from all you know, musical interests will become involved in this stuff. I mean, it started out with way back in the early 1900s, of like, like, Kuhn songs and things like that, that went into country style music and then move through the sort of sociocultural ages into the into the 60s 70s 80s, where it became like punk metal, and then it sort of, you know, as, as society changed its interest in music, it's, it's sort of gone along with it. The strangest stuff I hear is like the white supremacist, like hip hop music, which is like, just doesn't Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:13:57
that's a contradiction in terms that

Brad Galloway 1:13:59
it doesn't really. But then again, neither just rock'n'roll because that's very grounded in it. You know, when you think about it, that does not come from white people.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:14:09
If you if you really, again, if you've really examined this whole thing, and if someone were to come along and say, Okay, actually look at this really examine this, the whole thing would just completely fall apart.

Brad Galloway 1:14:21
Yeah. Because it's none of it is like based in actual

Stephen Bradford Long 1:14:25
reality at all. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that makes complete sense. Let's see what else we have. Would punching you have caused you to change your mind? I would do you answer?

Brad Galloway 1:14:40
No, probably not. I mean, let's let's really think about this for a minute. What does violence solve? I don't know. Right? So at the end of the day, it's really just a societal thing. It's not even a hate movement versus not whatever. It's like What historically, what has violence done caused more violence? Basically, that would sweat it kind of does. But I think I think something else to note about that one is that I get it though. I get the luxury Nazi thing I understand people are mad at Nazis, and we should be,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:15:16
there's nothing more human than wanting to punch a Nazi like, Oh, my God, there's, there's nothing. I can't I can't empathize with anything more than wanting to punch a Nazi. But then there's also the question of, of, well, if we want to win if we want to win people to our side, and if we want to reduce harm, then with that in mind, what is the correct response?

Brad Galloway 1:15:42
Yeah, and don't think it's violence. I think it's something else. It's compassion. It's humanity. It's all that stuff, right? Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:15:50
absolutely. Let's see, let's see what else he he's, we've got here. Are you sometimes scared of relapsing back into your old ways?

Brad Galloway 1:16:01
Not anymore. No. But there was times for sure. There was times because it was easier. Like I said about the whole, like, in those movements, they just have black and white answers for everything. So it's easy. Oh, we lost our jobs. Because of the Jews. We lost because of the Jews. Everything's just you could blame it. Right? And that's, yeah, instead of thinking about it, you just blame it on someone else. It's never your fault, right?

Stephen Bradford Long 1:16:28
It's yeah, it's never your fault is always, you know, piling on resentment onto anyone but you. So a member of my Discord also asks this, if we have loved ones heading in the direction of white supremacy, or are already in that camp? Is there anything we can do or say to steer them away? Or guide them out?

Brad Galloway 1:16:55
Sure, the first thing I would say is, I would look up life after Hey, I know I'm shameless plug. But look up life after, hey, there are family services there that they have available for people who have loved ones who are involved. So there's like, like family groups, there's, you know, things like that. They can talk to former extremists. That's another thing I would do. Like they could look that up on Google, they could say like, stories of farmers, like they talk about often these farmers will talk about intervention points with family members, like ways to talk to them. Again, using that compassion piece, rather than, you know, you don't walk into a room and go, Hey, I stopped doing that. Like the whole, like, what's that? What's that old thing? They they throw people in prison to like, you know, shame them out of doing crime again, or whatever it is, right? Like, that'll work that'll, that's not going to work out. So it's more like sit down and actually empathize with them try to like, figure out why it is they're interested in this. Wow. So

Stephen Bradford Long 1:17:58
so so we're using the word compassion a lot. What does compassion mean, in this context? So so we use the word compassion a lot, but people probably have a lot of different ideas of what compassion looks like. Right? So in this context, what, what do you mean, when you say compassion?

Brad Galloway 1:18:17
Well, I said, I said this a bit earlier to about how like, hate is exhausting. These movements are exhausting, they take it out of the individual as much as they take, it takes stuff away from communities and society and all of that kind of thing. So it's like, those are some of the valuable questions I asked. It's like, what does? What is this doing for you? What is this? What is this hatred, and violence and fear and ideology? What are those things doing for you? Do you feel better now that you have all this hate with you? And most people would be like, Oh, fuck, no. Right? When you think about it like that, you're going, Well, why is it that I hate billions of people? What Why do you hate all non white? Like, how do you do that? Right? So asking those questions of compassion, or like saying, so when you went to the coffee shop the other day, and you were served by a non white person? How did you feel? Or did you even know? You probably didn't even know. Probably didn't care. Right? Right. And that's the thing is that, so you're not seeing all these things in the world that you think you're seeing in your mind? You're thinking, Oh, well, they took my job to do this. No, no, but that's not really happening. So bringing up those things and trying to find out where this you know, all of this stuff, has brought them as a person, why are you why do you why are you here? Why does this making you feel like you need to, you know, have these black and white answers for everything. And that's, I think that's rooted in compassion in the sense of, you know, we'll have has a person of another community like what have they done to you? Like what is you know, what have gay people done to you? Like, maybe Maybe it's something did happen. So maybe that's something that they need to talk about the trauma, right. Rather than blaming the whole wider gay community, let's talk about, was it the person or their identity that did it? Or was it them just as a human being that did something to you? Not Not, not their whole, like, social community that's behind. Like, often that happens, too. They're like, Oh, guys, like, Oh, I got, I got robbed by a black guy in the street. I'm like, Yeah, but he wasn't doing it as a racial crime. He was just trying to take your money. Right. Like, that's bad, in a sense, but it wasn't the black race. Totally. That did that to you. This was a criminal a person who did that. Yeah. So we need to get past the point of, of racializing. Everything, you know, and that's in the in these movements, they particularly do that, they'll say, Well, you know, it must have been because they were black and violent and blah, blah, blah, you know, they, and that's how they'll point it out to you. And that's like the point of radicalization when I talked to a lot of these guys, they're like, Yeah, I got bullied in school by by an Indian guy. And I'm like, What's the Indian guy part have to do

Stephen Bradford Long 1:21:05
with the bully? He was just yeah, he was just a guy. He was just a bully.

Brad Galloway 1:21:09
He was a crappy person. Generally speaking, he was bullying a magnitude of people across the board. He didn't care.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:21:15
So let's say so. So what do you personally do when you are maybe in conversation with someone and someone just says something really fucking racist? Like, what do you do? How do you react in that in the moment in that situation, because so many of us, you know, like, someone will be at work. And a colleague of theirs will just say something so racist, and very often you just don't know what to do you have no reaction because it comes out of the blue. Maybe, you know, you're in customer service, and someone says something really awful and racist. What do you do in that situation? Where maybe granted in your position is probably more deliberate? You're actually good? Oh, deliberately having conversate with conversations with racist, but what do you do when you find yourself in that situation? And someone just said something super gross?

Brad Galloway 1:22:11
Often, I'll ask them, Are you trying to like, are you trying to like, go me along here to see if I'm still racist? Or if I'm still in the movement? So that's the first question. Okay. Yeah. If somebody have dealing, and second, I'd be like, you, okay? Like, I'll ask him that, like, like, what do you you got to drop the end, but like, there's some guys do that they'll like, drop it, you know, to like, try to like, get under my skin or whatever it is, right? And I'm like, You really feel that boldly about your hatred for black people? Like, and usually it goes silent. Because they're thinking about it. They're like, well, maybe I think so. So you don't?

Stephen Bradford Long 1:22:54
So you answer it with a question you You are always like, because, you know, maybe someone's first response would be Whoa, that's not okay. What the fuck, which is the which is an appropriate response. That is 8%. That is a 100%. Zero point response. But you wrote that, but you go around that bit, and you're like, why? Wow, okay, what? What's going on? Are you okay? Do you really believe that?

Brad Galloway 1:23:24
Or do you file like racism? Like, that

Stephen Bradford Long 1:23:27
is sad as vile racism? Why do you believe that? Or do you really feel that way? Do you really, and get until you ask a question that gets them thinking?

Brad Galloway 1:23:36
Yeah, it's also ability and accountability. I'm trying to get them to be accountable. Are you really that person that racist first? Are you really that? Like, because you probably aren't, is and that's what I'll get to later with them. But I want to bring up these things first, sort of substance things out is

Stephen Bradford Long 1:23:56
fascinating. But I can also kind of sense that the other thing that that question does is it demonstrates to them oh, you can't be frightened away by this, like you, you aren't going to be pushed away by this. You. You are not faced. You're you are you call it out? You think it's disgusting. It is morally and ethically wrong in every way. And you're not going to be pushed away by it. I think that that's really powerful.

Brad Galloway 1:24:28
Yeah. And that's to have the conversation to have the dialogue. Like I mean, there's fantastic back to this out there. And one of them. He was going around and intervening with Klan members. He was the black guy.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:24:43
Oh, remind me Al Davis. Darrell Davis. Yeah, the the jazz musician, right. He right. Yeah, he's incredible. It's amazing

Brad Galloway 1:24:50
work. It's amazing work. But it's those questions though. Really? Like you? This is you you hate all these people. For real, like how, let's hear, talk about it. Because very hard for people to talk about that, like, Why do you hate all these people,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:25:09
it's almost like the whole thing is set up. Or it's almost like extreme hate beliefs are set up to not ever have to self reflect. It's almost like they are, they're deliberately designed to not ever have to actually self reflect and examine the belief itself. And so just asking the simple question, just totally bypass that.

Brad Galloway 1:25:35
Well, it's kind of like, I had I had one person say, Well, you know, COVID-19 is a Chinese thing. And I'm like, okay. Why? It's not it has nothing to do with any race. It's a virus.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:25:52
It doesn't, it doesn't care. It's not

Brad Galloway 1:25:54
a thing about any kind of racist. But racializing it and making it about race is an ideology. That's a political standpoint, it's a political statement. And that's what they're trying to do. I'm like, I'm not buying it. I'm not buying the deal. Like, I don't care. I know what it is. It's, it's science will tell us what it is they put it under a microscope, and they look at it. And they'll say, Well, it's this, this is the disease that it is. Okay, cool. But that's not a race of people. Like when, and that's equating something like that. It's just a simple, simplified version of Black and White thought again, and again, they do it with everything, right? And that's what and often I was in there with that person. I said, so let me guess. Jews run the international banks, blah, blah, blah, go down the list of the other conspiracies that are happening. And they're like, Yeah, I'm like, No, though, none of that. So let's now talk about it. Let's unpack all those things. And those are really sucky conversations for people who are get awkward around, like, you know, these types of things, but like, these conversations need to be had, because I found they really helped me. You know, I say, one of the Go read the 1001 questions about Judaism, you know, because a lot of these guys know zero things about Jews. Not one thing, but then when they go, they're like, oh, that it isn't that you know, that? You know, no matter what your thoughts on religion are, but like, go read about it. You can't just decide you don't like Muslim people? How? Based on what? So those are the those are the questions and those those people who are willing to engage in those conversations, we're closer to helping them heal away from hate. Right? Because they're they're, they're, we're in the conversation, that we're having a dialogue, we're having this conversation, which is way better than them out there going and doing all these horrible things that are professed by these movements. Right. One last

Stephen Bradford Long 1:27:49
question. Just curious on how he handles the pushback, if he's public about being a former White supremacist, do you ever yourself as a former White supremacist get the revulsion from, from people? And the pushback is Do you ever? Do you ever get treated like you have this you know, irreparable stain on you? Or? And how, how do you deal with that? Or how do you respond when you're in that situation?

Brad Galloway 1:28:21
Yeah, it happens 100%. And I get it.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:28:24
It's the most understandable and human thing in the world.

Brad Galloway 1:28:28
I like I get it. Like I get it. Yeah, you don't trust me, you hate me. Cool. But can we talk about like, what? What things? That's, that's what I would say? I would say, look, I totally get it. Like I you know, I was, these groups are not good. And I agree with you now. Whether and that's, that's okay. We can we can also not, you know, it doesn't have to be a thing. You know, where are we? I understand if they want to hate me and all that kind of thing. That's fine. Because the scripts are abhorrent. The, the ideologies are equally as abhorrent. As violence, they're, they're killing people, I get it. But I'm here to educate about what those groups are about. And I'm going to continue my work. But I understand that people hate it, as well, that formers are involved.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:29:23
So yeah, I think that's a I think that's a really thoughtful and mature way of going about it. You know, you you don't demonize anyone for having for just being like, I just can't go there. I just can't think about that because you know, maybe maybe it's too hurtful or maybe it's it hurts too much. So I just can't think about that. And that that seems really thoughtful and mature. Well, that that's all the questions that I that I have from discord right now. But this has been a really I think productive and helpful conversation. I hope my listeners have enjoyed this conversation for those in my audience who might to find out more about your work, where can they go online to find that?

Brad Galloway 1:30:12
Yeah, so the Life After Hate as a website life after hate.org You can go check it out over there. The exit USA program is specifically the program I work with there. You can also look up the center on hate bias and extremism which is located in the Ontario Tech University. So you can check out the research you can also check out our work there on our on our website. And also the organization's prevention of violence is evolved program, which is prevent violence.ca.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:30:42
Amazing, I will put all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining me. This has been fabulous. I really appreciate it.

Brad Galloway 1:30:51
Thanks. Thanks again for having me and good good discussion.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:30:54
Well, that is it for this show. The music is by eleventy seven the theme song is called Wild you can find it on Apple Music Spotify or wherever you listen to music. This show is written produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long it is a production of rock candy recordings, and it is supported by my patrons@patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long as always Hail Satan. And thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STNeedsMust

2022-10-11T08:06:10Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STNeedsMust
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, book, tst, writing, read, satanism, arkansas, lemon squares, religious, satanists, satanist, hail satan, drag queens, russian orthodox church, piece, called, baphomet, formatted, part, talk
SPEAKERS
Jack Matirko, Stephen Bradford Long

Stephen Bradford Long 00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast this is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com All right. Before we get started as always, I have to thank my patrons who are funding my debilitating content creation addiction. This show is a one man operation I do all of the recording all the editing all the booking, and as Jackman Turco here can attest to sometimes booking is a crazy process. Yeah. We went back and forth forever trying to get a time. But here we are. Alright, so for this week, I have to thank Elizabeth Washburn Nixie Lionheart, Diane Koch Neff and Patricia Moreno patrons who have signed up over the past month. And for anyone who signs up you get extra content every single week, including my house of heretics podcast with EX Salvation Army officer turned Christian heretic Timothy McPherson, and we talk about politics whatever's going on in the world that day theology, Christianity, Satanism, philosophy, all kinds of interesting things. And as a patron, you can listen in live and join in on the chat every Wednesday morning. So if that's interesting to you, and you would like to support my work, then please just $1 a month is all it takes to keep me off the streets sucking dicks to fund my content creation addiction. Alright, with all of that out of the way, Sal Jackman Turco how are you?

Jack Matirko 02:02
I'm doing surprisingly, okay. I think

Stephen Bradford Long 02:05
I'm so glad it's been too long is whenever whenever you show up on the show, I'm like, wow, it's been it's been way too long. I enjoy.

Jack Matirko 02:13
We have these big gaps between when we Yes, we do are on one of each other's media somehow. Exactly. Exactly. So

Stephen Bradford Long 02:20
but you you are on today, because you have a book. Yeah. Do you sent me a PDF? Yes, nee it is called needs must. He is showing it but this but because this is a podcast. None of you can see it. You can see it. How? However, yeah, you sent me a PDF of it like an hour ago. I look? Well, I looked at

Jack Matirko 02:44
the thing is you you've been around the whole thing long enough that you read most of the patios content while I was writing it,

Stephen Bradford Long 02:53
and absolutely no, and I'm super familiar with the work. I've been following your blog for years I was following. For infernal use only your blog was one of the first things that I discovered when I became a Satanist back in 2017, like it was when I was doing the Google's for Satanism trying to find information on Satanism. And in 2017 2018 year blog was one of the top resources I tried. Yeah, yeah, it was, it was a great blog. And now by the way, you are still writing at only sky.

Jack Matirko 03:28
Yeah, I'm over at only Sky dot media now, which is kind of how the book happened. Because when we made the move, you know, under the under the contract path, iOS had universal rights to just keep the content up, right. But then, after all the non religious channel, people left, they, they decided to take it down. And I spent enough time doing document production formatting that I can put it in a book. So that's what I did. Yeah, that's

Stephen Bradford Long 03:56
amazing. So I was glancing over the table of contents. And it's a really, really valuable resource what you've put together here because it's basically like a journal. Now you're not a you're not a journalist. Why would you be a columnist? It's like a columnist. It's is like a columnist history of tst. Over the past, I don't know how long five years

Jack Matirko 04:22
that covers 2017 to 2021.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:25
Yeah. 2017 to 2021. And, and it's articles, like current events, in Satanism with some philosophy. And I think it's a I think, you know, we need more people doing stuff like that kind of being archivers of our history. Because this, that stuff is important. And as our religion grows and hopefully moves into the future, you know, I think that your book might be a reference point for for a lot of them.

Jack Matirko 04:57
Yeah, that's kind of what I wanted to be like a time Incapsula this was the contemporaneous reporting while it was happening for this period,

Stephen Bradford Long 05:05
right, right. So I don't think that we we've talked about this yet. Or maybe we did. You've been on several times. And I, I, I just glanced actually, at the episode count. I am now at just over 200 episodes on sacred tension, I think, maybe, or maybe just under Yeah. So you are a handful of those 200 ish episodes. So we probably talked about this, but I don't remember what got you writing about Satanism? In the first place? What was the thing that inspired you to be like, okay, Satanism, of all the things in the world, I could write about knitting, I could write about goats. But is that?

Jack Matirko 05:51
Well, the, it's mostly just a timeline of associations and who I was connecting with, while pursuing my own activist agenda, right. Like, I was doing a podcast called left hemispheres, when the rick Scott rally thing happened. And we covered that on that show. And I was like, Oh, this is an interesting idea. And then

Stephen Bradford Long 06:14
for we're going to have to tell people what the rick Scott rally was. Oh,

Jack Matirko 06:18
we're gonna have to tell. That's right at the start of the document at the hail satan dark. Oh, yes, it is. Yeah. So everyone, just go watch hail satan. Yeah. And then you'll get it, and then you'll get it. So so that was the first time I heard about DSD. And then, as things kind of progressed, and they started doing the reproductive rights campaign, I thought that was a great idea. And that's when me and Andy were doing naked diner, which we managed to get Jackson and like, the weekend after we had Jack's on the show on the weekend, and then that next Monday was when the Phoenix invocation thing happened. Right, right. There's already like, okay, here are these two students shall say that say that well, ourselves to them and see what they're doing.

Stephen Bradford Long 07:01
You broke up momentarily. So So you had that was when the Phoenix thing happened?

Jack Matirko 07:08
Yeah. Okay. So right after we had taped with Jax to talk about the reproductive rights stuff, was when the Phoenix invocation thing happened, right with Steve and Michelle. So that is what snowballed me into getting in touch with them and getting more involved that way.

Stephen Bradford Long 07:26
Yeah. And Stu wrote the introduction to your Yeah, wonderful forward, very,

Jack Matirko 07:31
probably more glowing about me than I'm comfortable with. But well, he's very good forward from Stu. Stu is great. on that. Yeah. He's

Stephen Bradford Long 07:39
a great friend. And yeah, he's awesome. He everyone should go watch the show that you did with him on on. What's it come to see? Do you want to see th Yes, Devil's dispatch anyway, so yeah, so you just kind of as a content creator, as a blogger, you found yourself kind of continually engaging in Ts TS history is what is what I'm hearing you say where it's like, oh, this is interesting. And you just find yourself connecting with people and kind of engaging with the seminal moments in Ts TS history like the Arizona incident that sounds like it was a UFO abduction. The air is the the council what what did you just call it

Jack Matirko 08:27
the the Phoenix in location? Yes.

Stephen Bradford Long 08:30
The Phoenix. Yes. The invocation situation, all of which can. That's also in the TIA in the hail satan documentary. Yeah, yeah. So so a lot of these big moments are in the hail satan documentary, and you've just kind of found yourself reporting on them and being drawn into them. And, and a lot of these events are in your book.

Jack Matirko 08:56
Yeah. Well, I tried to I think, at the time mostly was the thing about the site that I was working on, it was it was nominally, you know, interfaith participatory dialogue kind of thing. And so I think it was important that somebody who was on there to be like, Well, okay, we're going to take this Satanism idea seriously, and, you know, make the best case that I can for where I what I think they're trying to say, and if they've got a good point or not, and I think they always have and I've always kind of, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 09:33
well, you did something really important at patios, where so patios is, I would say, the primary platform on the internet for quote unquote, religious dialogue will it's I guess it's an open debate as to how much religious dialogue actually happens at patios. But you were one of the I think you were the first satanist in that forum, to basically You're like, Yes, I am. I am a Satanist. And I deserve to be part of this conversation and part of the platform

Jack Matirko 10:06
if it wouldn't have happened without headquarters being a thing, either. Oh, so the Arizona chapter, we were there for Steve and Michelle to give talks and stuff, and we just all kind of like, well, let's all go take a vacation in Salem. And so we were all hanging out there. And I was talking to Lucien at some point. And he had mentioned SE and said that he kept mailing the editors trying to figure out how to get space there. And I had already known the editor of the nonreligious channel, because he had been on my show a few times. So I reached out to him and it was kind of a let me see what I can do situation. And then a couple months later, I Okay, we've got a blog, man, what are we gonna?

Stephen Bradford Long 10:47
Amazing? Yeah, and and for infernal use only it was kind of a collect, it was mostly you, but there would like elusion would occasionally

Jack Matirko 10:55
read some stuff. Daniel from Black Mass Appeal contributed a couple times.

Stephen Bradford Long 11:02
Yeah, it was a fantastic blog. And so now you've consolidated it. Like I guess the greatest hits of foreign Furnell. Use only?

Jack Matirko 11:13
Yeah, and I've just kind of roughly organized it by type of activity. Right. So so there's a chunk that's Arkansas, there's the chunk. That's reproductive rights and

Stephen Bradford Long 11:23
awesome. And, and yeah, and I saw that you did it by theme. Like, there is one one, like there was a section about autonomy, a section on freedom. Yeah, I'd

Jack Matirko 11:33
say I pulled one word from each of the tenants. And just like, okay, that this is what one does.

Stephen Bradford Long 11:41
So as you've been going through that consolidating process, as you went through that process of editing this book, and you were going through these old articles, very often, when I do that, I, I notice new things in my own work, and maybe new themes come to the surface, or did anything like that happen for you, as you were organizing this book, what came to the fore?

Jack Matirko 12:07
It wasn't so much that as I think it's, it's one thing in the moment when you're writing, you know, a couple articles a week, and it's very, okay, you're switching from one topic to the next, depending on what the news cycle is, versus having all the articles in one place. And going reading one after the other, in the end getting a full, like storylines scope of this years long block of time, I think adds, it makes me think about a different way. You know, so a story started to emerge. Well, I you're kind of following the story arc of each thing, because because if you're following the Arkansas case, that's one thing, if you're following reproductive rights stuff, that's another thing, but reading all of it at one time, as like, and kind of ignoring the other stuff until you get to that chapter is a very different way to it is, I think that there's, there's especially, you know, since we see things growing at a rapid pace, and more and more people getting involved who don't know any of the stuff from a few years ago, it's, there's a certain amount of hindsight is 2020. When you look at like, you know, a case that got lost or something, to say, Oh, well, that didn't work. That was a dumb idea or whatever. Right? But but to see what the the argument was contemporaneously at the time, like, what, what the legal arguments they were making, then at the time, it can

Stephen Bradford Long 13:35
help us why are they more gracious? can help us? You know, like, you were saying, there's so many people were very critical of, of, you know, tsps, quote, unquote, failures. Well, maybe looking at the arguments at the time, and what they were trying to do would help, you know, generate a bit more charity. Yeah. Is this so? I don't, I can't remember if we've talked about this in the past. Were you raised religious at all?

Jack Matirko 14:02
Um, yes and no, right. Like, my grandmother was really religious. And my mother, not so much and what? Really?

Stephen Bradford Long 14:12
What, in what tradition? Was your grandmother? Like, what? Sorry, I don't mean. I don't like dogs Catholic. Ooh, that is very traditional. I don't mean to like probe into your childhood.

Jack Matirko 14:25
But no, no, it's fine. I've written about it plenty, because

Stephen Bradford Long 14:29
well, so how does that intersect with with the writing that you've done kind of coming from this dual secular slash, religious background has? Has that informed your writing on Satanism? Has it influenced your writing on Satanism at all?

Jack Matirko 14:45
On Satanism? I'm not so sure I think in in the sense that, you know, I went to an Irish Catholic college and I really got into the philosophy classes and I thoroughly enjoyed, you know, when when we were in metaphysics, and we're reading Aquinas This and I'm like, Well, what about this one? I think I can poke a hole in this one. Like it's Aquinas and just like, I don't care, I think you can't poke holes in Aquinas. So that kind of, you know, just defiant ethos was, I think valuable thing for me to learn in those times that has come in handy. I guess one of

Stephen Bradford Long 15:20
the things that has struck me more and more the stereotype of Satanists, I think is that it is for disaffected Christians. And there is some truth to that, and that's fine. I am one of those disaffected Christians, but especially through ministry, as I've gotten to know more and more Satanists and and just kind of worked directly with more and more Satanists, and not just, you know, be in my little bubble. Here on a mountain in my cabin in Appalachia, there's real diversity in the backgrounds of various Satanists. And so I have colleagues who are Jewish and consider themselves to still be Jewish, and they are satanists. I know people from Quaker backgrounds. I know people who love their Christian background, people who hate it. People who come from Buddhist backgrounds, people, like it's just all over the map. And so did Were you ever devout as a, as a Catholic? Do like it? Was there ever a time when you really, I mean,

Jack Matirko 16:20
there was there was definitely a point where I genuinely believed it.

Stephen Bradford Long 16:24
So like, what age were you when when you were really a believer?

Jack Matirko 16:28
Younger than, let's say 12?

Stephen Bradford Long 16:32
Okay, so you were never so you never

Jack Matirko 16:34
range when exactly when exactly. It went from, you know, when exactly it went from Santa is not real to Gods? Not really. But it was somewhere, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 16:45
it was somewhere in there. Right. So so it sounds like you've always been a very skeptical person. And it sounds like your your history with Satanism is more rooted in skepticism than it is necessarily a response.

Jack Matirko 17:00
Well, I think I think I have a healthy distrust of organized religions, and you want to, you know, really go in and kick the tires before you sign up? I think Right, right. Right. So

Stephen Bradford Long 17:10
you so you developed a really, I mean, being Catholic will definitely instill a healthy, healthy distrust of religion. Yeah. So one of the questions that I always get, and we are totally kind of drifting away from the topic of your book, but I think this is all interesting, but you can always kind of guide it, we can we can drag it back to you. We can always drag it back to the book. Oh, god dammit. What was I about to say? Where was it? Oh, yeah. So one of the questions that I always get asked is, so you had such a terrible experience in Christianity? And you had, well, I don't even necessarily Well, no, this is what people tell me. And I did genuinely because I was raised Christian, but I don't, I don't, it was, it was both good and bad. You know, I had horrible experiences growing up gay in the church. And then I had wonderful, beautiful experiences, because it was affirming gay Christians, who saved my life, I wouldn't be here if it weren't for those affirming Christians, or for the straight Christians who were 100% accepting of me. And so and that wasn't that was part of their faith, you know, that wasn't in spite of their faith, their acceptance of homosexuality was deeply connected to what they believed about God, you know, the two were were not and so they it was it was of the same cloth for them of us of a piece, their faith and their affirmation of me as a gay child, and as a gay young person. So for me, it's way it's for me, it's super complicated. It was both a horrific harrowing experience, because I went through ex gay therapy, and I, you know, all of that stuff. But then it was also a wonderful, beautiful experience, because it was also Christians who saved me from that, and, and I think a lot of people, especially Christians will say, Oh, you know, you had such a horrific experience with Christianity, why did you choose to enter another religion? What possessed you to to enter another religion? So with you, you are very skeptical of organized religion? Right, what well zest you to enter another religion.

Jack Matirko 19:36
So I think the thing about the the atheist community such as it was in in 2010 2012 2014, when I was a part of that community was that it was very much stem oriented, science, you know, Education and Science, Technology, Engineering. Science, Technology, Engineering and Math. There you go. And and it always really bugged me that they could have just made it steam and had an A there for art and they completely left it out. And it was, it's always been a bias kind of on that part of of atheism, that it's it's a little artless and not that always bothered me.

Stephen Bradford Long 20:22
You know it, it's always bothered me too. And it was one of the big hindrances for me, I think in finally becoming an atheist. It took me years, and I think part of it was that hurdle for me.

Jack Matirko 20:33
Right. But I think I think that Satanism allows a framework to have that have that artfulness without having to delve into theism.

Stephen Bradford Long 20:41
That's great and all, but that also involves people and religious structures and institutions. Yeah. So how do you had so so how do you? And I say, okay, and I say, this is somebody who is part of that structure and who loves it, I just find it interesting how different people are can be so skeptical, rightly so, of organized religion then find themselves in an organized religion.

Jack Matirko 21:08
Well, you know, I'm kind of skeptical of corporate power is sure to but sometimes you need a job.

Stephen Bradford Long 21:16
Sure, yeah. That makes sense.

Jack Matirko 21:18
I mean, there's only so many ways to put an organization together that like is stable and sustainable, right. So if you need an organization to get stuff done, then you can only make them some other otherwise, it's not an organization, right? Otherwise, it's just, yeah, apps lunch of people doing random stuff, with no

Stephen Bradford Long 21:38
order. And that tends to be even worse. My cat is here to say, Hello, hold on just one second, he has an inner ear problem. So he's very wonky in and he kind of can't balance. So. Oh, is he gonna stay? So I always have to pick them up and put them in my lap. Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with you on that. I don't think it's a contradiction. People always people always talk. Well,

Jack Matirko 22:03
I think there's, I think there's a difference between, you know, healthy skepticism and just being, you know, contrarian for being contrarian sake.

Stephen Bradford Long 22:12
Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, structure is a necessary part of life and a necessary part of community. And I feel like TST has just kind of been dragged kicking and screaming into more and more structure. Where it's like, it started out kind of

Jack Matirko 22:30
Yeah, unfortunately, as things get bigger, restructure. Exactly.

Stephen Bradford Long 22:34
Exactly. And that does mean, you know, imperfect people trying to work together. And that often causes, you know, challenges but are there so let's take it back to the book. Are there any stories in the book that are your favorites that stand out to you as as key pieces of writing that you are particularly proud of, or stories that you're particularly proud of? Because when I go through my blog history, there are a few standouts for me, so what are the few?

Jack Matirko 23:09
I think the okay the the one where I really tore into Roberts, various 501 C threes and

Stephen Bradford Long 23:20
tell tell people tell people who Reapered is Jason raper, the

Jack Matirko 23:24
state senator from Arkansas. He's still running for governor this year. And he Fallout I don't I mean, let's,

Stephen Bradford Long 23:30
let's look, keep talking and I'll Google it.

Jack Matirko 23:32
But but but, you know, he had his his election campaign funding. He had his church, and there was a third thing, but you know, all these businesses went to the same address. And then he had the his, the fiber one that was it be American history and heritage foundation. That's the one. He didn't have any 990s available it for a brief window of time they lost their 501 C three status. And I think some of that had to do with pointing out that they hadn't filed some of their paperwork on time

Stephen Bradford Long 24:13
he is running for Arkansas lieutenant governor, lieutenant governor in 2022. Jason is proven and trusted is a proven and trusted public servant for Arkansas voters having already won four general elections, first elected to the army

Jack Matirko 24:30
in a district of like 60,000 people, first of all, right. Clear, huge number of people. First elected

Stephen Bradford Long 24:37
to Arkansas senate district 35 in 2010. Reapered has been popularly reelected on three occasions winning in 2012 2014 and 2018. He is chairman of the Senate state agencies committee, member of the tax revenue and Joint Budget Committees, past joint Chair of the legislative joint audit auditing committee, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, So yes, he is still running, but he's the

Jack Matirko 25:02
one who's responsible for the 10 commandments statue out there. And so that was just a piece of, you know, investigative dive into the finances of him and his organization piece. And what you found matters? Well, what? What became apparent was that, you know, at that time when I was doing the article, he hadn't seen that that organization hadn't submitted any of the paperwork that they were supposed to submit. And so I just did a whole thing about it. And then not too long later that you check the IRS website, and it's just like, they're suspended. It was like, Cool. I don't think I had anything to do with that. But cool, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 25:40
so So were they doing nefarious stuff in terms of like the division of church and state? Like, what were what I mean, it's

Jack Matirko 25:48
to say with that, it's impossible to say, right, but I mean, there was certainly stuff where, you know, the, was it Pure Flix wrote on a $25,000 check for the bathroom, or for the 10 commandments monument.

Stephen Bradford Long 26:03
And it'd be great if Pure Flix wrote a, a check for the Baphomet monument? That would be that would be awesome. You know, that would be if they really believe in religious liberty than they would do that.

Jack Matirko 26:14
Yeah, help us out. Help us out. So.

Stephen Bradford Long 26:18
Right, so so they were accepting donations from religious organizations to do this thing on state property.

Jack Matirko 26:27
Yeah. And how much of that like how much does that really mix? Right? Like, I mean, because he also runs a ministry, how much is he? Is he you know, soliciting those donations at Sunday on church? Who knows? You know, like, is, is that is he doing that as part of his job? Or kind of after off the clock in his office? Where does you know, where those lines meet? And what's okay and what's not, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 26:50
what, what's his ministry? What does his ministry do?

Jack Matirko 26:54
It's, it's Well, according according to the to the to the ministries, 990, they do missionary work in the Philippines, I think, okay.

Stephen Bradford Long 27:07
Is that it? Well, they do.

Jack Matirko 27:11
I presume he has a shirt, he definitely owns the property, he owns some big, some big, like a state house that okay, he's next to his house that he uses for four minute, gyms and praying and whatever.

Stephen Bradford Long 27:24
Etc, etc. Okay, yeah. So so there's a

Jack Matirko 27:27
whole bunch of you know, and you kind of just want to point out the hypocrisy of always saying all this, because, you know, godly, blah, blah, blah, but you know, he's making bank and that money is going somewhere. And if even if it's all staying in the businesses he's enjoying, you know, the benefits of having it sort of, and how, to what extent is that, you know, yeah, and to what extent is making his expression of faith a little less genuine, you know, of course, and

Stephen Bradford Long 27:53
how much of that is pouring back into his theocratic causes in government, as well, like, there is this very dubious marriage between state and church? In a lot of the state legislature, right. Yeah. And yeah, so So for people who don't know, this, you know, the senator Jason Rayford. He was the one behind the 10 commandments monument. And then what happened from there? What, what, how to TST respond what happened from there? Because like you said, we there are a lot of new people to TST who don't know, the history. Yeah, well,

Jack Matirko 28:36
I mean, that case is still ongoing. They're they're trying to get the Baphomet statue placed on Arkansas Capitol on

Stephen Bradford Long 28:43
in response to the

Jack Matirko 28:46
10 commandments, one being that which, which makes sense to me. I'm, I'm all for pluralism. I like the idea of there being like these interfaith statue gardens. I think that sounds fun. It sounds Let's go.

Stephen Bradford Long 28:59
Yeah, throw in a Shiva. Throw, throw in a whatever. What did the Mormons have? An angel, the angel who brought the tablet? angel Moroni, angel Moroni

Jack Matirko 29:11
Yeah. I don't know if they make statues I don't know enough about Mormon neither do I like iconography to know what they write just this trade of lemon squares because cuz Mormon wives will always bring you lemon squares and do they

Stephen Bradford Long 29:28
I haven't experienced this

Jack Matirko 29:31
as well. Lot of very big Mormon population here in Mesa. They bring you live in squares. Well, they're always baking cakes and cookies and whatever I would be lemon squares is like a it's like a it's like a standard. I don't know why.

Stephen Bradford Long 29:46
I wish Mormons would bring me lemon squares.

Jack Matirko 29:49
Well, maybe maybe you should answer the door when they might have some

Stephen Bradford Long 29:53
bite. No, I live way up in the holler and I don't think there any any Mormons here. There There are other kinds of religious fundamentalists here but not Mormon, sadly and they do not bring me lemon squares. They scare me. Yeah, so the 10 commandments case is still ongoing. Trying to remember did they remove the 10 commandments monument in response to PST? Was that in Arkansas? No in Arkansas?

Jack Matirko 30:23
So there was a 10 commandments monument in Oklahoma that got removed from a state capitol. That's the that was that was I think it was a combination thing like the ACLU had already filed the certain. I think the SD kind of jumped in on it is like a, what an amicus brief kind of situation. Maybe, Arkansas, it's still there. And, yeah, and the bathroom? It's not.

Stephen Bradford Long 30:49
And the Baphomet is not kind of it right now. Yeah, so you did this investigative piece into Ripert and his various companies and organizations? What are some other pieces that you're particularly proud of? Like, if you were to hand the book to a stranger and be like, okay, here, here are the stories from this book that you need to read? Which ones would they be? I guess

Jack Matirko 31:16
it would depend on who they were and what we were talking, you

Stephen Bradford Long 31:20
know, TST member knew? I think he didn't complete

Jack Matirko 31:24
it. Yeah, if it was okay, what what do you think, you know, all this stuff is about then it's then it's the I did one Baphomet is more American than the 10 commandments piece. Which was just me kind of rash reasoning through, you know, the artistic symbolism of it and being like, you know, I mean, this will put it next to the Statue of Liberty, see how that weighs out? I think. I think it makes a lot more sense. And so that piece, I think, really kind of drove on this idea of just like you can you can be, you know, a fully American citizen and be a Satanist, too, you know?

Stephen Bradford Long 32:02
Yeah. Would you say that? It's, it's part of your patriotism, that, that Satanism and your and patriotism go together? It informs my sense of citizenship, and put it that way. Yeah, that makes complete sense. It informs my sense of citizenship and civic duty. Yeah, that makes complete sense. So so we had the Jason rapper, the JSON array, pert schemes. He's here, rifling through his book right now. And then what

Jack Matirko 32:29
I don't know, I don't know if there's any one thing, one article from the Arizona lawsuit, the Arizona invocation lawsuit coverage, but I think that was that was the one that since it was here, like in my backyard with my friends that I worry are, you know, had the Yeah, I had the most insight and access to so I think it's probably the ones that I feel like I did the best like actual like reporting reporting in terms of, okay, I've looked at all the angles, and here it is, in a concise way.

Stephen Bradford Long 33:01
Awesome. Yeah. And that was when Michelle and Stu tried to give a an invocation in Scottsdale, and all fucking hell broke loose and their images or their scenes in the movie, Hail Satan, from that whole situation, and just the mayhem that exploded in response to it. Yeah. And that court case closed a while ago, right. Yeah,

Jack Matirko 33:29
that closed a while ago with basically a determination that the city didn't violate any religious rights through a bunch of technicalities and loopholes if you ask me, but it was also a case that, you know, in the decision, the judge was like, Well, we still affirmed DSTS, religious, you know, designation as a religion, you know, so that was important there. Was that a win, even though even when? Well, it was kind of a it was kind of a it was kind of a consolation prize, I think, as opposed to a win. Like, it wasn't, it wasn't a win, but it was also Yeah, we definitely affirm that, you know, you're you're, you're the right to seek redress as a religion kind of thing, which was important.

Stephen Bradford Long 34:17
And interesting. Yeah, it's so it's funny, because what I got into TST, four, or not four, but what first drew me to TST were these high profile court cases and the protests and stuff like that. So what got me what got TST on my radar was when my partner was sitting on the couch one evening, on his laptop, and then he was like, Oh, my God, Steven, you have to see this. And he shows me the screen and it has a video on YouTube of a BDSM baby protests. And I just got it. It made sense to me and that It was my first exposure to Satanism was the BDSM baby protest, I think that was in Boston. And that was one of Jack's Blackmores protests back when she was still with the temple. And I instantly got it. And it made sense to me and, and then I started doing, you know, some deeper digging and eventually joined tsp and so on and so forth. And the rest is history. And now here we are, but what initially got me into TST were these very high profile public events, like the court cases or like the BDSM baby protest. Now, that's totally flipped for me. Where, like, you know, today, I have spent the entire day kind of, in my office buried under work for ministry. My entire life, and I when I think about TST, now, the, those high profile events like we just had the bland the bland ensberg, the bladder, the bladder Seberg, cross thing, the bland I can't even say, I think it is blatant, the Bladensburg cross thing. It doesn't even show up on my radar. Because well,

Jack Matirko 36:12
no. Well, that would that would, that would be a a congregation level thing. So it's not something that unless it was your congregation, there's no reason for you to really concern yourself with that unless you're driving up for it or visiting. Because I mean, one thing that that I definitely missed during the pandemic, and part of the reason that like the satanic estate happened was just, we were all kind of used to bouncing around from place to place and hanging out with each other and helping each other with events, and then pandemic and nothing. And that all that felt really weird for a while until we all kind of figured out how to interact with each other without going to see each other.

Stephen Bradford Long 36:52
Yeah, tell people about the estate because the estate is a really low. Well, just to finish my thought before we get to that. So many of these high profile cases, they they aren't the lifeblood of tsp for me anymore. The lifeblood of tsp for me is now the community, just kind of those those day to day interactions, which I'm having every day, and there's an eye and it's really lovely to just kind of be so immersed in the community and the day to day and the quotidian and the religious life of it. But the stuff that these high profile cases are super important. And that's what the public sees. And you've been able to chronicle those really, really well. So anyway, that is the end of my thought. Tell some tell some people about tell tell people some about the estate because the estate has emerged as this really cool hub of community within the town.

Jack Matirko 37:48
Yeah. And it was I was I was doing ongoing, unnecessary pursuit with TSG. TV. And because of, you know, stuff that other people had going on, I was interviewing everybody and I had interviewed ADA King and a few other other people from her goddess project. And we had gotten to talking about how it sucks that we could because it didn't we met at La in. And so we, you know, kind of kept in touch. And we were like, it really sucks that none of us can get together and hang out and do projects together. And she's like, well, I got these tech friends who are working on this thing. And so we started playing around with it, and just like we could use this and so so from there, you know, we told some other people and they came in and help and and so we built this this thing where now TSD has online maths on Tuesdays and Yep. Special Events and, and it's just neat and fun. And everybody likes it. And that's the best. Did you just call it maths?

Stephen Bradford Long 38:46
I guess. Is that services? Is that because you're a former Catholic? No, I'm kidding. Yes. No, yeah. So we have the the religious services every Tuesday night, and they are amazing. And then all kinds of these. And then events for the various holidays.

Jack Matirko 39:04
And it's it's a it's it's it's a wonderful thing, and it's I don't even really pay attention other than that to log in and watch anymore. It's cool how, as it became a bigger and bigger thing. Other people stepped in and said, Oh, hey, I can do that. And they took it over. And then now it's just this self sustaining. cool little thing.

Stephen Bradford Long 39:24
Yeah, it's a very cool ecosystem. But you enter it, they have different buildings, and you enter the building. And it's like this really cool screen with like, yeah,

Jack Matirko 39:38
it depends on your mind. It always reminds me of the map in Zelda, like whenever, yes, up to the map. Exactly. That's what it reminds me of, but it's great because you'd like okay, I'm gonna go over here. They're gonna go over here and there's stuff going on, at all the really fun little interface. Yeah. And I think that that makes it cool and special.

Stephen Bradford Long 39:57
Absolutely. It's an example of people in innovating during the pandemic to maintain community and kind of maintain this religious life. Do you have any future writing projects on the horizon? You I know you're writing for only sky? And what do you have going on there? So where can people find you on only sky? And do you have any like future projects?

Jack Matirko 40:20
Well, I'll be writing an only sky just look for Project Matejko. I don't know how the how they filed it the URL, but I think if you just click the author's tab, it comes down. It'll it'll show up under my name.

Stephen Bradford Long 40:31
So people can just search for your name Jackman Turco and only sky.

Jack Matirko 40:34
I have been thinking about, I haven't done any ongoing unnecessary suits in a while. I think I'd like to get back to that. Before I do any, like sit down writing writing. I just feel like I have some some interview itch. And I'm sure you understand this. I exerted hiatus. And yeah. So I'd like to do some more that I did a couple that are up on YouTube, under Jack Pacheco that are kind of a new format for Omp that I would very much like to take it into. I kind of used them as promotional for the only guy launch because we needed to get the name out there. But I would like to do like another full season for DSTV. If I can I think that'd be worthwhile.

Stephen Bradford Long 41:19
Absolutely. Yeah, that would be great. Yeah, I'm looking through your I'm looking through your catalogue.

Jack Matirko 41:27
The YouTube stuff?

Stephen Bradford Long 41:28
Not on YouTube. I'm most I'm still on the only sky website. Oh, yeah. You've heard a lot on here. You do a lot of writing your

Jack Matirko 41:38
I've been? It's, it's been I've actually I've actually taken a break. The last month or two I was working on the book. But I did get to just because I am a third generation Ukrainian. I have that history. When war broke out. It was just like, Okay, I have a lot to say about this. Oh, yeah, man.

Stephen Bradford Long 41:58
That, let's let's talk about that. Yeah. And

Jack Matirko 42:01
I and I was already since I was already doing Satanism. Before that, since I'm already used to thinking of things in terms of, you know, like how religions interact, instead of how governments interact, was something that jumped out at me was the the tensions between the Greek Orthodox Church in Ukraine and the Russian Orthodox Church in Moscow, and how how those power structures were interacting with each other to make this situation worse, especially since, you know, Putin has kind of all been nationalized to the Russian Orthodox Church. Right. So I thought it was super valuable to explore things from that angle.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:41
And what did you find? Well,

Jack Matirko 42:43
there there's, I mean, those power structures definitely exist. And there is it is using the Russian Orthodox Church as a kind of seed vehicle to spread Russian propaganda into other places like that. He they just opened it XR Cape in South Africa, it was a what is it? It's an XOR gate, which is think of it think of like, you know, like a satellite office, a diocese kind of like a diocese? Yeah. Okay. Okay, cool in South Africa, and that's new, and it's just kind of like, well, what are your What are you moving into there? Russia, you know, right. So

Stephen Bradford Long 43:20
they're, they're using their like, religious arm as like propaganda and other

Jack Matirko 43:26
and I guarantee you they like Russian Orthodox churches in Donbass? Sure, of course, they were using that as propaganda view, why wouldn't it?

Stephen Bradford Long 43:36
Yeah, to basically cause like, state unrest or, or, you know, stuff like,

Jack Matirko 43:43
whatever Russian identity movement was taking place out there that they use to foment separatism, right.

Stephen Bradford Long 43:50
And how did the Greek Orthodox Church?

Jack Matirko 43:54
Well, there's just a part of this is just really involved into how the Orthodox churches are structured, which is a bit of a learning curve, because it's not to everybody here is Catholic, and I think Roman Catholic church, but the Orthodox churches are a whole different animal. And there's like 12 different heads. So so the Greek Orthodox Church is actually under the Constantinople patriarchy in Turkey, and Russia has its own patriarchy and patriarchy. It's basically like they've each got their own Pope sort of Pope's there are any books, yes.

Stephen Bradford Long 44:28
But without, you know, speaking ex cathedra and without infallibility,

Jack Matirko 44:33
right. They wouldn't say they would get mad about any Pope though, because it's not really they think that they view the pope as an equal and the Pope's like, well, I'm the first

Stephen Bradford Long 44:43
and this goes, this, this gets into the 1000 year history of

Jack Matirko 44:51
there's a huge thing about Catholicism, that and the Orthodox. You can look it up and it's a lot.

Stephen Bradford Long 44:58
Yeah, go read it. Go read the Wikipedia A page. I haven't seen much coverage of the role of the Orthodox Church in the conflict in Ukraine. So I think there's there's

Jack Matirko 45:09
some and then there's the role of the various Orthodox churches and their associated mafia, as you basically have to go to the Italian press to hear anything about that. Mafia. Tell me more, Sam. Ah, yes. Tell me more. I mean, you know, like the Russian, of course, the Russian mob, like, yes, the Italian Mob is in with the Roman Catholic Church, and the Russian mob is in with the Russian Orthodox Church. And, of course,

Stephen Bradford Long 45:34
so basically, what I'm hearing you say, is that when Satanists have their own mob, we will have made it as, as one of the world religions.

Jack Matirko 45:44
We don't need a mob, we have the entertainment industry.

Stephen Bradford Long 45:47
That's true. Very true. We have Sabrina stealing our Baphomet statue. Cool. So everyone should go read your coverage of the war in Ukraine. It's really interesting. I did read some of your pieces. And it was super fascinating. You're also just a very good writer. I don't know if enough people tell you that. But you are an excellent writer. And I'm really glad that our community has excellent writers like you. So we do have a lot of good writers, we really, really do. And you are one of them. So where can people buy your book? What's it called? And where can they get it?

Jack Matirko 46:28
My book is needs must Life and Times and satanic American 2017 to 2021. You can get it on Amazon. It's on. It's available in hardcover and Kindle.

Stephen Bradford Long 46:39
Yeah, amazing. I will be getting it on Kindle. No, actually, I have a book I have it, you send it to me. So I'll be reading that instead.

Jack Matirko 46:47
You can read the OG I'm just gonna send you one of the hardcovers. I got a box of them showing up tomorrow. Oh, no.

Stephen Bradford Long 46:53
Oh, well, thank you so much. I appreciate that. I will, it will go on.

Jack Matirko 46:56
And I think part of it is just me being a ridiculous, like document production nerd. And it's exceedingly proud of the fact that there's no widows and orphans on any of the pages. And there's no one. Okay, so in publishing, in publishing, if you're reading a book, and the first line of the paragraph is the last line on the page, and then the rest of the paragraph continues over here. That's called a widow. And then if it's the other way, where the last line of the paragraph starts at the top of next phase, that's called an orphan. And it's bad because it just breaks your concentration, right? It's after skip in the middle of that thought. So I made sure, because I did the formatic. Myself, there's none of those. Well, that's

Stephen Bradford Long 47:41
good to know. I appreciate that. I know attention

Jack Matirko 47:45
to detail that I say you really enjoy.

Stephen Bradford Long 47:47
You aren't following in the grand satanic tradition started by Anton LaVey of terribly formatted books. You're trying to break that tradition. And I'm terribly formatted book a terribly formatted like you read the Satanic Bible.

Jack Matirko 48:01
It's not like it's not like the, the chapters are exhaustively well organized, or loosely well organized, or it's going

Stephen Bradford Long 48:09
to be sections, but it's going to be better formatted than the Satanic Bible where there are literal, just pages that are blank, like a gazillion pages that are blank. And then the last part of the book, he he, you know, patted it by adding, you know, inochi. And just like just like a few lines per page, there's none of that

Jack Matirko 48:32
there are there are a couple of the as often happens with publishing just a couple of blank pages at the back that you can use for notes if you want, which I'm always a fan of in a book.

Stephen Bradford Long 48:41
Absolutely. That's fine. But that's I like his dozens, the dozens of empty pages, just a couple of pages in

Jack Matirko 48:49
the back. So you're not writing in the margins, you can just make little annotations in the back for yourself, I think, well, always. That's always a good thing for a book to have.

Stephen Bradford Long 48:57
Thank Satan. We have a well formatted book by a Satanist. Well done. All right, everyone go read needs must by Jacques Matejko. You can find it on Amazon or if you throw bricks through his window at 3am. Maybe you can convince him to send you a copy. Do you have any final thoughts?

Jack Matirko 49:18
Can I just end on a weird joke? I can just end on a word I was thinking about. I was thinking about how, you know in politics, we need to compromise and the right wants to harden public schools by having more people with guns there. And the left wants drag queens to read good stories. So why don't we just have the drag queens at the school and we armed them? And that fixes or both and then they can read the stories and that should fix everyone's problems, shouldn't it?

Stephen Bradford Long 49:45
All right, well, that is it for this show. The music? No, that's a brilliant idea. Armed drag queens I think is a fantastic idea. AK 40 sevens is the answer. Yeah. We should run you should run on that platform. Drag Queens with AK 47. Yeah, that'll go over well in Mesa, Arizona. It'll go over very well. All right. Well, that is it for this show. The music is by eleventy seven the thing. The theme song is called Wild. You can find it on Apple Music Spotify or wherever you listen to music. Go give my friend Matt Langston of eleventy seven some streams, it will definitely help him as well. The show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long it is supported by my patrons@patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long and it is a production of rock candy recordings. As always Hail Satan and thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-ST Ministers of Satan8vilo

2022-10-11T08:06:10Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

ST_Ministers_of_Satan8vilo
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
ordination, people, ministers, satanic temple, ordained, satanic, ordained minister, question, community, ritual, tst, coursework, weddings, lessons, satanist, marriage, religious traditions, program, perform, require
SPEAKERS
Greg Stevens, Stephen Bradford Long

00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast. I am Avery Smith, and I'm here to invite you to bless it are the binary breakers and multifaith podcast of transgender stories. Whatever your own relationship to gender and spirituality may be, you will find yourself enriched or the stories shared by my guests who so far have ranged in religion from Christian and pagan to Jewish, Sikh, atheist and beyond, and have hailed from the US, Chile, Poland, Australia and more tune in wherever you get your podcasts or read along with episode transcripts by visiting blessitt Are the binary breakers.com See you there.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:18
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com In this episode, I speak with Pena Mouw, Director of ministry for the Satanic Temple. We talk about the temples, new ordination program, and all the ins and outs and we take questions from the satanic community about that process. But before we get to the conversation, I have to thank my patrons. As always, my patrons are my personal Lord and Savior's. And I truly could not do this without them for this episode, I have to thank will and Steven, thank you so much. I truly could not do this without you, and you are ensuring the long life of my work. If you're interested in joining their number, please go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long. You can also follow the link in the show notes. As always, please subscribe wherever you're listening to this. And if you're listening on Apple podcasts, please take a moment to leave a five star review. You can always find me at Steven Bradford long.com. And you can email me via the contact page. I love hearing back from my audience. All right. Well, with all of that finally out of the way I am delighted to bring you my conversation with Penemue. Penemue, welcome back to the show.

Greg Stevens 02:55
Thank you very much for having me on.

Stephen Bradford Long 02:57
So I think you are now the most interviewed guest on sacred tension. You're you've become a regular you're like up there with Joseph Laycock and Lucien Greaves as the most regular guest on sacred tension.

Greg Stevens 03:12
Well, I am honored and I enjoy being here. So I appreciate it.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:16
So there's a lot of excitement in the Satanic Temple community, which of course, is our religious community about the upcoming ordination program, which you are the director of, you're the director of ministry for the Satanic Temple. And so I just wanted to do this episode is kind of an update on that process. Where are you and where is the ordination process in terms of coming out to the Satanic Temple going public? Also, I should preface this whole conversation by saying that I am not an impartial interviewer. Here I am part of the ordination Council, which is kind of helping to get this program off the ground. So I work with you quite a bit on on ordination stuff. So just so the audience knows that I am not impartial here.

Greg Stevens 04:13
Absolutely. And yeah, this thing has been a it's been a long time coming in. It's been something that people have been hearing about and that I've been working on for more than a year. And of course, it was an idea that you know, was people were were talking about even prior to when I got started. So where we are now is we are in the final stages of finishing up the coursework part. So you know, the program has 10 lessons which have the form of video presentations, sometimes some reading material, and it goes through different topics on history of Satanism philosophy of Satanism philosophy of TST some specific sort of topics like the Satanic Panic, and we have developed assessments, they're going to be little quizzes, there's going to be a final exam. And then after the coursework, the coursework part is the bulk of the program. But then in order to become ordained, you know, there are these other steps. And so we've also been putting together some of the, you know, final steps that are going to be needed to actually become ordained. And all of this information is on satanic ministry.com. So all of the, you know, if anyone is interested in hearing more about what the actual requirements are, and some of those details, it's all public now at satanic ministry.com. And so yeah, wherever it's a point where within the next, within the next I would say, a week or two, we're going to be doing a gradual rollout for testing, you know, there's going to be initially a small set of people, people who were in leadership, people who are like, you know, the people who actually presented the lessons are going to get a first crack right at testing the thing out, and then it's going to be expanded after that, and then eventually to Chapter heads, but we're just about to start this initial testing, which I'm really excited about, and get people started on it. Because then the next stage, for me and for our team, once the once the main course is set up and and functioning and running, is going to be to continue to put effort in developing further, what are the resources that we are providing to ministers, once they're ordained, and that's going to be, you know, we're collecting, we're already in the process of collecting some resources, like we're gonna have a ritual archive with a bunch of essays about thinking about satanic ritual and a bunch of ritual scripts from different sources, as well as information to help ministers who wants to perform weddings, for example, you know, a lot of people haven't done that before, especially if they're being ordained for the first time. So a nice handy little script and I step by step guides that people can follow, if they you know, if a friend of theirs asks them to perform their wedding as a satanic minister, and all that sort of stuff is going to be the next step as well. But I am very excited about the fact that we are on the cusp of being about to begin the slow, you know, initial testing rollout of the program itself

Stephen Bradford Long 07:30
perfect. So I got a lot of questions from listeners and members of the satanic community who are interested in the details of this program. So let's just go ahead and move on to questions. And hopefully through the process of answering and discussing these questions, we can get more into like the meat of the what and the why of this program is so I sent you the form of all the questions. Is there one particular question that you'd be interested in tackling first?

Greg Stevens 07:57
I mean, we can we can go through that. Suppose you just from top to bottom discretion, all right, you are like if there's one of your favorites, and I'm open to

Stephen Bradford Long 08:06
that. So so one of my favorites actually is more of a philosophical question. And this comes from a minister actually a Christian minister on my Discord server, who asks ordination implies a hierarchy. Is this an issue for tst? So this is actually a question that has come up a lot for me, not necessarily for people within tea. Well, maybe for some people within TST, but especially for people on the outside of TST, where they seem to think that the Satanic Temple having ministers is somehow like fun, just somehow fundamentally clashes with what it means to be a Satanist. And I think part of that is what Joseph Laycock calls ignorant familiarity. You know, this idea that people who aren't very acquainted with Satanism have think they know everything there is to know about Satanism. But I think that it's an interesting question. So what's your answer to that?

Greg Stevens 09:00
No, it is interesting. And I can, I can even be a little sympathetic, you know, and understand the people who might, you know, have a concern about that, because when we look out in the world, at the way, you know, clergy ministry and ordination are, you know, the way those things manifest in different religious traditions, there are religions where it is that right there are religions where that's how they approach it and if you are deemed, then it means you have power over the people or whatever and there are different levels or different whatever. So I, you know, I can understand I can understand how that question would come up. But with the way this question is phrased, it says it states ordination implies hierarchy. And that's the premise that I would absolutely sort of push back on because, like, originally, it first of all, even outside of Satanism, in other religious traditions, it doesn't always, you know, you can think of clergy like you know, a very higher Arkel, I guess what comes to mind, for me is like the stereotypical sort of Catholic picture of, you know, all the ranks of various power levels in clergy. But there are other religious traditions where, you know, ministers are just people, and they might be, you know, they might be a sinner, and two, they might not even be, you know, in a particular place, you know, in charge of a particular parish or whatever they might just be people who go and care for people in the community. Although ministers, the idea of a minister can mean many different things. One of the common themes across most, if not all religious traditions that have ordination and ministry, is that they, you know, care for the religious community in one way or another. And so the vision of you know, what ordination can mean, for a in a satanic context is something that I actually have an entire hour long lesson that I present in the coursework. So keep an eye out for that. But, but it's it is fundamentally different from having a structural relationship, like in the standard corporate org charts sense, right? It's not, it's simply isn't that kind of thing. Now, the other funny thing about this question is we do have like CSD already has, their chapter has, and there are these other sorts of different positions that, you know, there's already some organizational hierarchy, and a lot of chapters have their own internal councils that are in charge of certain things. And so to a certain extent, organizations that want to, you know, get stuff done, often have structure to them. And CSC does have some of that, if that's what if that's what's being implied by the word hierarchy here, ordination isn't part of that, per se, I think it's important that we are intending to acquire over time, we are intending to require people who are in leadership to become ordained. But not everyone who's ordained, you know, is in leadership, it doesn't go in that direction. And so simply, the fact of being ordained is separate. It's completely independent of whether or not a person has a leadership role. From a, like I said, an org chart kind of perspective.

Stephen Bradford Long 12:23
So what I'm hearing you say is that being ordained does not grant you automatic organizational leadership within the temple? That's correct. Yeah, great. But everyone in organizational leadership will be required to be ordained. And that's really kind of the way it is, you know, that that, like rhymes with my experience and other religious traditions. And as you were talking, I was just thinking, you know, regarding the concerns surrounding satanic ministers, I am very pro minister, Pro, the concept of Pastor Pro, the concept of Minister because I feel like, while it is often a setup for lots of abuse, and that has to do with certain religious structures that enable that abuse, when it works, I think it's incredibly important and societally valuable, and, and because a pastor, a minister is someone whose duty is to care for the community, to be there, when someone needs help to talk someone down from a ledge in a purely non therapeutic non counseling setting, to, to be a good friend, to be a wise friend to the community. And I just don't think that as we've gone through the secularization of our culture, that there's a, that there was a good secular analog for or a good secular version of that. I don't know how well, the concept of pastor has translated into a secular setting. And so or into a non theistic setting, and so I see TST filling in its own small way, that kind of societal need of offering pastors in a setting where because of the the positive growth of secularization, we don't necessarily have that. I just wonder what your thoughts are on that. No, I

Greg Stevens 14:19
agree with that. And I think that I think that even just thinking within our own community in the Satanic Temple, the idea of leaders being ordained, and getting some exposure to you know, this kind of Rose way of thinking about being a leader in a community, not in the, you know, sense of being organizational power and telling people what to do, but in the sense of being an inspiration being a sort of caregiver for the community. Like that's something that I think is has been missing as US sort of overall thing in our community. Of course, there are people who do it, of course, but as something that we as a community strive for, it's been missing. And I think that it is very much in line with other sort of changes that we're working towards, in, you know, focusing the idea of congregations, chapters, being thought of as congregations and making a shift towards saying, you know, these are really about nurturing communities. So all of this is part of what I see as the mindset that goes along with the concept of, you know, introducing the idea of ministers being a part of how our communities

Stephen Bradford Long 15:44
operate. Perfect. So I have one question specifically about leaders being ordained, being expected to be ordained, required to be ordained one person on Discord asks, I've heard that new chapter heads will be required to be ordained, Won't this create a barrier for entry for new chapters and slow growth? For tst? What's your response to that? Yes. Yes, that's a good thing.

Greg Stevens 16:12
I mean, so So Right. That's the, I think the, I think the, you know, when I look back on the last six years, six or seven years, and the all the things that we've tried in this organization, and having gone through, you know, phases where we really were, let's, you know, lower the barrier to entry, we want everybody to, you know, be have an opportunity, and we don't want to be gatekeepers. And we went through that at, you know, at different phases in our development very early on with the first sort of emergence of chapters. And then we sort of went through that, again, at different periods, it has created problems, that just because we ended up getting people who are not necessarily connected to the, you know, the values and the mission of the Satanic Temple ending up in leadership, when you lower the barrier to entry too much, right. And that has created all kinds of other issues as well. And I think that, I think that, you know, not every single member is going to be required to be ordained, of course, and so we're not really interested in, you know, gate gatekeeping, like, who gets to call themselves a Satanist or whatever, right? That's not, that's not what we're talking about here. It really is just a matter of trying to think carefully about what qualities and what basis of you know, what foundation of knowledge and mindset we are looking for in the people who are going to be leaders, and in charge of, you know, really nurturing our communities. And so if you know, this is a kind of barrier to entry, then I think the deaths not necessarily bad, however, I will, there's another way I want to answer this to, like, gosh, we are taking part of the reason that we're rolling this out as a testing period, initially, is that we really are, I really am, I will speak for myself very interested in making sure that it is, you know, for, if we're going to be having this barrier to entry, it's going to be because we want people to have a shared understanding of Satanism, a shared understanding of TST, it doesn't mean we want everyone to have exactly the same values, or exactly the same goals. Not everybody has to agree on all these, you know, some set of issues. It's more about making sure that people have an understanding of the roots and the history, what the philosophical origins of why the Satanic Temple as an organization, approaches things the way that it does. And if you have your own personal philosophical disagreements with parts of that, then that's fine. You know, if there are many different ways to agree with the seven tenants as I think, you know, a lot any anyone in the Satanic Temple, you know, knows this is one of the favorite topics, right of discussion among members, there are many different ways to follow the seven tenets and with ordination. You know, it's I want to make sure that if people are if people are feeling like you know, there's a there's a there's a filter, they're keeping them out. It's not because of you know, it's not because they happen to have some particular interpretation of seven tennis to disagrees with someone else. It's not because the coursework itself is creating a barrier. It's not because of, you know, their specific accessibility needs or anything like that. Like we want to make this as open and accessible as an opportunity to, to learn and then at For that, when we worked really hard to have that be the way we're conducting the program, the only real barrier to entry is, do you want to learn it or not? Right? And that's what I would like to have be the goal.

Stephen Bradford Long 20:12
Yeah, that makes complete sense. So to recap, you, you won't be denied entry into ordination, on the basis that you interpret the seven tenets to support, you know, anarchism versus liberalism, you will be denied entry on the basis of you not actually being a Satanist, or something like that.

Greg Stevens 20:36
Exactly like, like, in fact, there's just a part in one of the lessons where it actually comes up several times, you know, just mentioning, the, there are certain things where, you know, we might describe some aspect of the philosophy of, of, you know, the, the is driving some of the political actions of the Satanic Temple, but taking care to say, you know, if there are details of you know, where this philosophy came from, do you disagree with? That's, you know, that's fine. You know, there's the or

Stephen Bradford Long 21:09
less agree with Lucians Twitterfeed. Yes, in other words,

Greg Stevens 21:16
and so, in fact, I think there's a place in, in, in the first lesson, if I remember correctly, where I mentioned that even saying, even even when Lucien has said things, like, you know, we in the Satanic Temple are inspired by, you know, enlightenment era, revolutionary philosophy. And, you know, if you, if you even if you take that as a given, once you dig into what, you know what that means, like, that doesn't imply even any specific political, those people were all over the place, like they had all different all kinds of different philosophical stances interests of politics.

Stephen Bradford Long 21:52
Martha was an enlightenment thinker. Yes.

Greg Stevens 21:55
And so, there's so like, a Yeah, like, that's that? Yeah, I guess, again, you know, when it comes to when it comes to barriers to entry, or, or kicking people out, like you, you're going to have to be a Satanist, you're going to have to be able to say that you agree with the seven tenets, however you interpret them, you know, you if you're, you know, you're not going to be able to be ordained by the Satanic Temple, if you are a theistic Satanist. And so there are some basic things like that. But beyond that, you know, this isn't. This isn't meant to be something that all of a sudden adds, you know, constraints on, on the bliss of people within the Satanic Temple. We are, we are overflowing with different perspectives on the Satanic Temple, and I love it. And this program is of no way meant to change that.

Stephen Bradford Long 22:51
Yeah. So there's a point here that I want to highlight, which is that there's a lot of ideological diversity within the temple. And we expect that to also be the case within our clergy. And that's good. Because, you know, my personal bias is that that kind of diversity brings a and kind of the the kindly friction that takes place within that diversity creates a level of vitality, that's really extraordinary. And so we want to maintain that we don't want to get rid of that that's a healthy thing. People having, you know, long conversations till 3am, sometimes arguments about, you know, the interpretation of tenet five, that's a good thing. That's what makes the that's one of the many things that makes the temple exciting. And so that will still be there is what I'm hearing you say?

Greg Stevens 23:50
Absolutely. I absolutely agree with all of that.

Stephen Bradford Long 23:53
Great. So another question that I got was, has more to do with the role of the minister once they are ordained ash on Twitter asks, What does a minister's job look like within the Satanic Temple? As well as what scenarios are you anticipating to meet in deal with as a minister? Wow,

Greg Stevens 24:14
I mean, that's a big question. It is, it's a big, huge lesson. 10 So if you go to satanic ministry.com, you can find a place where you can see the sort of outline of the curriculum. And in my lessons that I present are lessons one and 10 sort of the intro and the conclusion as it were, and in lesson 10, like that, that lesson is about what does it mean to be a satanic minister? What does it mean to be Minister specifically within the Satanic Temple? And the fact that it will mean different things to different people and that's okay, so like, you know, what does it look like ministers within the Satanic Temple will be off To rise to perform religious rituals. And so that is going to be one part of it. This is also one of the reasons or it's a contributing factor to why we would like all of our leadership to be ordained, because, you know, we want to make sure that all of our leadership, when they want to organize a, you know, a congregation wide ritual event, we are as a group going to put on in, you know, in a black mass or, or an baptism for the whole group or whatever it is being able to be authorized to do rituals as part of what being an ordained minister is going to be. And so we want to make sure that, you know, all of our leaders have the background, to be able to know exactly, you know, what that means, and what and to have some guidance on that. So part of it is, rituals. Another part of it is a you alluded to this, Steven, the caring for the community, right, one of the roles, the ministers are often called on in, across across different religious traditions is to care for well, in the way that it is described in other illustrations, often to care for the spiritual health of the community. And like, you know, as a Satanist, I'm like, let's try to see them come up with another word for that, maybe, although, I mean, that's, you know, depending on how you interpret the word spiritual, but, you know, whatever word is used that idea, right, that idea of being able to foster, you know, positivity, and sort of Empower, and nurture, you know, our, our satanic communities that we care about so much. And so that is, I guess, rituals, and that those are two big parts of it. But like I said, there's going to be a whole lesson on this. So check it out. But, but I guess like it for a quick answer, that is the way I would have to I would have to answer it perfect.

Stephen Bradford Long 27:10
Yeah. We're trying really, really hard in this interview to not give spoilers.

Greg Stevens 27:17
Well, it is that so. But it's also just another thing that I figured might as well say is it's not I mean, yes, boiler is a little bit, but I feel like because it is complex. Yeah, I spent, I spend an entire hour as well. So one subsection of the hour long lesson, there's 120 minutes section, where I really go into this in detail. And I spend a lot of time listening through different types of things that ministers are often called upon to do in our broader culture, and how that might manifest in our satanic community. But for like, but multiple times in there, I say, hey, this might not be an aspect of what you are interested in duties, Mr. And that's okay. Right. And so there's a lot of time spent on that. And so I am a little bit like, I don't want to go down the path of trying to give the quick summary, because I'm a little worried that like, the quick summary, could give a mistaken impression of like, what either is going to be required, or what isn't, you know, so that's part of the reason that I'm hedging a little bit, is because it is a legit complicated question. And I don't want anyone listening to this, to come away with a mistaken impression by getting, you know, just enough information to be more confused, I guess.

Stephen Bradford Long 28:39
Moral of the story. If you're really curious about this, you should take the ordination program. Okay. Here's, here's another question. How much oversight does the ministry intend to have over ministers by ministry? I assume they mean, the Satanic Temple.

Greg Stevens 28:56
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I'm oversight. The main place where I see there being oversight, per se, is when it comes to because there is going to be, there is going to be a process of any time that an ordained minister wants to perform a ritual, you know, it's something that isn't like you sitting alone at your altar and doing it right. Something that's, you know, more public than that. But anytime an ordained minister is going to perform a religious ritual, you know, as an ordained minister of GST, you're gonna have to register your intent to perform the ritual by going on to the the satanic Ministry website, and filling out a ritual notification form. I call it a ritual notification form rather than a like proposal or request or whatever. Because I really expect most of these are going to be you know, nothing. Most of these are going to be very, very basic. And so, you know, if it's, if it's relatively small, if it's only you know, members only if it doesn't have any sort of bloodletting or crazy or whatever stuff, then I'm just lazy, I don't want to have to reply to all those. So it's a notification form, if you don't hear back from someone, but in the next you know, three days, then just assume it's approved. But it is an opportunity for, you know, if there is something that's going to be a larger event, if you get something that might freak some sort of risk, or it is something that might get media attention, it is an opportunity to, you know, engage in a conversation and get some, you know, and get some, I guess, oversight, but more just, you know, an opportunity to open up that conversation. And, and sort of, you know, work together to make sure that, you know, everything has been sort of appropriately thought of, you know, get the right insurance or whatever it is,

Stephen Bradford Long 30:43
you're going to be doing that, you know, suspension fisting bloodletting orgy, you need to make sure the insurance is lined up, you need

Greg Stevens 30:52
to make sure that the venue allows it, you need to make sure that you have consent forms from everybody, like, you know, there are things and so it's, and then also, another purpose of that ritual notification form is, if it is a ritual, rather than one of our internal rituals, if it is something like a wedding, like they're actually legal requirements for, you know, record keeping in that case. So we're, you're going to have to fill out a specific information. And that way, if there's some sort of legal request down the road, or some kind of challenge in court, you know, we can produce a list of every wedding that you or any of our ministers have ever performed. And that's, you know, that's for legal purposes. And in the end, you know, it's like this, this, that kind of oversight is going to be it's there for, you know, like I said, I intended to be not, you know, burdensome, especially for some of the simple things, some of the rituals that aren't, you know, don't have a lot of exposure or risks, you should still fill it out for if for no other reason that it's really nice to be able to have some record, no matter how little information is there of how often rituals are, are being done, you know, even if they are small rituals, that kind of thing, can even that kind of record keeping, can even sometimes, you know, could potentially make a difference to be able to speak to it in the media or in court, we're always being questioned about whether we're real religion or not being able to say, Yeah, you know, we have ritual practice and in our community, these are the number of times that the, you know, in the year that our members engage in religious ritual. So it's partially oversight and partially just record keeping. But that ritual notification form is the main thing that comes to mind when I think of the word oversight. So I don't know, I hope I'm not. I don't know if there are other aspects that the person who asked this might have intended. But that's the main one that comes to mind.

Stephen Bradford Long 32:54
Another aspect of oversight could be disqualified, what what disqualifies you from being a minister? So say, someone goes through the basic process goes through the course has the background check has a letter of recommendation from em, or a chapter head from executive ministry, or the chapter had all these details, by the way, dear listeners are on the website, I highly recommend everyone go to satanic ministry.com. All of the details of the basic process of getting ordained are there. So let's say someone completes that process. What, once they are ordained, could get them disqualified from being ordained,

Greg Stevens 33:38
breaking the code of conduct, if we find out the you are harassing people, or threatening people or doing stuff like that, when you register as a candidate to become ordained, there are certain things that you in the act of registering, you have to agree, by registering, you agree that blah, blah, blah, and that includes things like, you're a Satanist, you're a member of the Satanic Temple, you agree with the seven tenants, you know, and if it turns out that one or more of those is not true, and we only find out afterwards, your ordination could be revoked performing a ritual that, you know, is where you didn't submit the form. And this is one of those things. It's like, in most cases, it's you know, first of all, if it's a small thing, as a practical matter, would we even find out, but if we do find out, especially if it ends up like it ends up in the news, and it's something that, you know, is demonstrably contrary to what a Satanic Temple Minister should be doing in a ritual or whatever, you know, yeah, you could have your ordination, suspended or revoked for any reasons like that. When we talk about oversight in my mind that is, after the fact stuff, right. That's not something that we're we're not going to be asking people to get permission for every little thing. In some cases we couldn't. But if it turns out that, you know, we find out that there's the you've, you know, done a material breach of the Code of Conduct, then it is possible the ordination could be suspended, or even revoked.

Stephen Bradford Long 35:16
Yeah. So as with all things, tst, you have a lot of leeway to be yourself. But there are there, there are some hard boundaries, all of which are listed on the website.

Greg Stevens 35:28
And actually, I want to make sure another thing is clear, because I just realized this could give the wrong impression I were we the ordination Council, we are not the ones who decide if there has been a material that is important. So I do want to I do want to make clear like, this isn't like some like, we just simply look at something and decide, oh, that seems bad, let's revoke. That's not That's not, that's not either. Surco serene Council, for anyone who's not familiar, is our functioning, essentially, HR department, steering Council is responsible for researching and evaluating complaints that are brought forward about breaches of code of conduct. And so it would be through them, like, our group is not responsible for adjudicating that. But if certain counsel comes to the conclusion that a minister has materially breached the code of conduct, then that could have consequences even separately in the organization, but because they're an ordained minister, and you know, once once as the director of the ministry, you know, I'm notified of that, then it becomes an additional decision, you know, independent of any other consequences that might exist, you know, in their local congregation or anything else, it might also result in consequences for their status as an ordained minister.

Stephen Bradford Long 36:51
Perfect. So here's a big question. And, again, this might be too broad to be helpful. But Z asks, I'd like to know what the vision is long term. What does the TSP community look like 20 years from now? And what's the role of ministers in getting there? So let's try to narrow this question. Some not what is the long term goal or vision for tsp as a whole, but But what are the hopes or long term plans for the ordination program in particular,

Greg Stevens 37:28
so I mean, that's better, that's better. The long term vision for the for to TST community as a whole is that we have a thriving community that that is rooted in satanic principles. Yes, that's, that's like the only you know that, because it's so broad. But for for the ordination programs, so 20 years, I don't know. But I can definitely tell you what I have imagined, of, you know, once we get it rolled down, once we get because we have the initial testing period, then we're going to be getting, you know, all of the chapter heads, you know, through the program, getting feedback from them, so that they can help us improve the program, then there's going to be the next wave of opening up to, you know, official members of chapter is having an opportunity. And there may be future weaves, after that were opens up to the more the broad public during that time, and after that time, I also would like to continue to develop the resources that are available to our ordained ministers. Because, you know, in addition to the core curriculum, that's part of, you know, getting ordained for the first time on an annual basis, ministers will have to renew their ordination, in order to remain active. And it won't require a whole like 10 lesson course each time, but it will require taking a single lesson each year that is going to be they're going to be able to select a an elective from sort of a menu electives are going to focus on sort of more in depth stuff on particular topics that they might be interested in. And that's going to be an ongoing sort of continued education, you know, sort of philosophy and then above and beyond continuing to create a rich, and, you know, broad menu of these elective courses, you know, other materials, if we take seriously the idea that our ordained ministers are going to be, you know, nurturing our communities, and going to be, you know, leaders in the sense of, of, you know, helping to foster our values of Satanists within our community, meaning, empathy and compassion and justice. Then I want to build up a set of resources for helping our ministers and training ministers with stuff like that, too. So we want to provide resources for You know, giving them education, how to listen and, you know, manage when people do come to you to talk about, you know, things that they're going through, you know, active listening, you know, resources to sort of ministers will know how to direct people who might benefit from outside resources, knowing how to direct them, giving, you know, little training, little mini training classes that are ministers can take in anything from recognizing and understanding what sexual harassment is in their communities, so that they can, as leaders can, you know, set the stage so that doesn't happen in their events, understanding how to communicate in a way, that is, you know, aware of things like, you know, what microaggressions are aware of how to how to engage with people, and use appropriate pronouns. And like, I would love to create a whole set of resources that our ministers will have available to them, so they can really, you know, explore and have resources available to, you know, through self guided interest, like nurture their own ability to be compassionate religious leaders within our community. And believe, leaders, again, in the sense of not like the org chart sense, but as people who are nurturing, caring for the, you know, religious, social and emotional health of our community, people who are inspiring and providing comfort, that kind of leader, I want to, I want to build out all of those resources. And I want to build out the, the collection of the ritual archive, a collection of, you know, the scripts for different rituals, essays about, you know, how to think about the creation of satanic rituals by you know, different people who have a lot of experience in that area resources to help people with just the basics of not just, you know, weddings, which is something a lot people understand, but understanding, understanding, grieving, and being, you know, something that people can turn to for funeral ceremonies. And there is a whole wealth of skills and things that our, you know, religious leaders in our ministers can benefit from. And so that's kind of what I think past you know, the initial get the coursework completed, get a debugged, get it, you know, the people get everything sort of started, the next phase, in my mind is absolutely strengthening and deepening what we create the empowers our ministers to just really shine and go to the next level of being able to care for our community.

Stephen Bradford Long 43:00
Perfect. And big picture, I am super excited about the ordination program, because I feel like unleashing this cohort of satanic ministers into our community and into the world can can really deepen and strengthen and vitalize the satanic community in really, really powerful ways. And so my hope is that this this will kind of be an upgrade, it will, it will be like eating a mushroom for this in the Mario since not, not in the psychedelic, maybe in the psychedelic since one never knows. But you know, it'll, it'll be eating the mushroom for the Satanic Temple, and, and will provide a lot more on the ground capacity for building a satanic culture and community. And I think that's just incredibly exciting. And that we're kind of in the early stages of this and that we as a community, and the people who are taking who will take this course who will become ordained. We are taking part in the creation of that, and that is extraordinarily exciting to me. That's what I love so much about being part of a new religious movement. It's like, we all get to shape the religion that we're in, we all get to shape the religion that we want to see in the world. And so to me, it's just amazingly exciting that we're doing this.

Greg Stevens 44:35
So just to clarify, you will not be required to eat mushrooms as part of the ordination program.

Stephen Bradford Long 44:41
However, if you want to incorporate that into your own satanic practice, knock yourself out. Absolutely. Okay. Moving on. Let's see here. But up that's the please hold music up it up. But here's it here's a really interesting question pertaining specific physically to the marriage rituals. I know that legally we'd only be able to marry two people. But I'm curious religiously. Could we officiate polygamous weddings? What about satanic pet weddings? can those be polygamous as well? Okay, answer maybe the first part of that question polygamous weddings?

Greg Stevens 45:19
I'll answer both parts. Okay. I think the answer to both parts is the same at this point, which is unfortunate, because I think that, you know, we the, the fact that marriages are legally restricted to only two people, I think there's that that's still a vestige of, of a particular type of thinking that, you know, is inherited from certain religious traditions, or recent interpretations of certain religious traditions. And so I think it's a shame. But that being said, what I would be I guess, and I haven't, I haven't researched this specific issue. But I would, what comes to mind, when I hear that question is that I would want to be careful about my about the use of language in this in this case, if since the word marriage has certain sorts of legal things, I would wonder if there would be any, you know, potentially negative implications or consequences of using the terms so freely, that we were officially calling something, a wedding or a marriage, when it was, you know, plainly, outside of what is considered a legal marriage. And that's me being in notes like, we could, but I would just I would want to tread a little bit carefully. And I would want to spend some more time thinking about it, because we are in a, we are in a position as the Satanic Temple of, you know, being under a lot of scrutiny. And being under you know, the potential for criticism, all related to you know, are they serious, serious religion? Are they, you know, are they for real, and I would hate for there to be a, I would hate for our lawyer to be standing up in court one day, and having to defend a marriage that was performed by one of our ministers, and have the other attorney, pull out some certificate of marriage between, you know, for people and their pet dog, and say, These people don't take mirrors seriously, look at this, right. So that's what comes to mind, I would have to think through some more, but the only, the only reason I would be hesitant, is not because I personally think that there's anything wrong with all kinds of constellations of, you know, relation of committed relationship, but just like literally because of the word marriage, and the way that we are, you know, and we have to be mindful of, you know, our position sort of within the greater culture. So that that would be the only reason that I would be like, you know, let's have the polygamous pet commitment ceremonies. Or, you know, something like that, perhaps

Stephen Bradford Long 48:26
do the seven tenets. And TST as a whole support the concept of Beast reality.

Greg Stevens 48:32
Why are you asking me that question?

Stephen Bradford Long 48:35
The answer is no. For anyone who's wondering, just because I have just seeing the sound clips on YouTube right now, for that this is just us. This is just me covering my ass. Oh, right. Okay. That's what that answer is. The answer is no. beasty reality is not marrying your dog.

Greg Stevens 48:58
I'm actually going to I'm going to I'm going to make a more broad study.

Stephen Bradford Long 49:00
Yes, please.

Greg Stevens 49:01
The the ethically in you relationship requires affirmative consent of all parties. Yes. If there is any person, including that, you know, puppers and kitty cats those people if there's a person who can easily give quick and not give clear affirmative consent, then you can't like do that with them like yeah, that's good. Good. Feels so weird, like, explained it. So it's funny because after you explained it, I could like see how you know me having a offhand comment about like the commitment ceremonies between yes, that their minds would go to that and that makes me sad, but I understand.

Stephen Bradford Long 49:49
Pena Moo I live in terror of Twitter. I live in perpetual terror of the right wing Q anon goons on Twitter and so on. Right. So if dear listeners, if you clip anything about that, just be sure to include that previous clip as well, just so it's all in context. That's my humble request. Okay. Let's see here. I should title this as a satanic Minister, can you marry your dog? I think that would be a very eye catching title for this episode. What do you think?

Greg Stevens 50:20
I think that I love that. I love that that specific phrasing contains a particular semantic ambiguity. Can you marry your dog to another dog? Sure. Do you mean you bury the dog like this? Is?

Stephen Bradford Long 50:40
There? Yes, there? There are a lot of ways that question can go. Let's see.

Greg Stevens 50:45
I mean, I don't even know that now that now. Now that we're not you forced me to fucking take this seriously.

Stephen Bradford Long 50:52
I'm like, That's the remedy you always take what do you call out to my podcast? Can is it

Greg Stevens 50:57
actually proper, philosophically proper to have a commitment ceremony between two pets? If they because they don't speak the same languages you cannot clearly and definitively express consent to the fact that they want to be in a marriage like that out. Now that we're going down this rabbit hole? Uh huh. Like I would actually it's because it sounds so cute. I didn't even occur to me first, like, oh, marriages between pets. That's so cute. But now that I'm thinking about it, like, if we're going to if we're going to take the idea seriously, and have it be something other than just a goofy joke, then which presumably if you're asking whether a minister can do it, and it's not a goofy joke, because if you only want it to be goofy joke, doesn't have to be a minister that does it. Right. But if you if you mean it more than a goofy jokes, and I am concerned that these pets don't understand what the human concept of marriage is, and therefore cannot consent and even if they could, I'm not sure how we would be able to know for sure, given the language barrier that they do. So I'm like, I don't know you should be marrying your pet now. Now. That's another thing to be clipped out like a cute pet stuff or whatever. But like, I don't know if we're gonna if we're gonna be doing this thought experiment. I'm just saying you got to think about how consent plays out in the pet world.

Stephen Bradford Long 52:26
If if Pena MOU was against cute pet stuff, I would have assassinated him long ago, this, this friendship would have ended years ago, it wouldn't have even started. Okay. Well, that's all very interesting. And actually, I can't remember if this actually happened, or if this was a Parks and Rec episode, but there was like, two gay penguins getting married. In a zoo. I I think that the Parks and Rec episode might have actually been loosely based on an actual, like, mock a gay wedding. That is you had for two gay penguins. And it was very, very cute. Anyway, that's neither here nor there.

Greg Stevens 53:08
I remember the gay penguins. I don't remember if there was a mock ceremony for them. I just remember that when they first you know, when the when it first sort of came to light I remember the news stories about the penguins that seems to be you know, in a committed in a committed, you know, monogamous situation. And then there was a thing where they like because they're gay. They like I think at one point they like stole someone else's eggs just sit on it. And like that raises all sorts of ethical questions. But

Stephen Bradford Long 53:37
gay behavior, don't don't,

Greg Stevens 53:39
don't don't, don't steal, steal the egg. But like, that's kind of as far as I like paid attention to it. There may in fact, I wouldn't be shocked at all, if there had been some sort of cutesy ceremony involved in that.

Stephen Bradford Long 53:52
So you do not foresee any satanic officially sanctioned satanic gay penguin weddings in the future?

Greg Stevens 54:02
No, we would I think I think we would have to develop the technology to be able to communicate to the penguins what the human concept of a wedding is, and to receive their affirmative consent before we could do that officially. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 54:16
perfect. The thumbprint thing on my iPhone isn't working and it's driving me nuts and really slowing down operations here. Okay, someone on Discord asked. I'd love to know about the process that he ie pin A mu and others went through to identify the values, ethics, ideals, knowledge, skills, etc, that a person needs to be officially a minister. This is not altruism. I'm being I'm doing this work to for my own religious tradition to some degree and feeling largely adrift. Okay, that's interesting. Let me see if I can contextualize this a bit. I think there's a broader question here of how, how does how does the ordination program fit within a larger constellation of values and traditions that we're drawing from, is I think what I'm hearing in this question. Does that make sense?

Greg Stevens 55:09
It does, I'm thinking about the question. And I'm like, if so, in the latter part of 2019, I started really doing a bunch of research about what being redeemed means, what it takes for ordination to be legally recognized, trying to understand what it means in different religious contexts. I explored there are many religions, that or more specific churches that do actually make available online, their ordination standards, in some cases, it's just kind of a very quick one page webpage that like sort of summarizes the big picture. In other cases, they have like a whole booklet, you know, whole, a whole PDF, like, these are the exact procedures and requirements. But over the course of exploring those and researching that end event, I came to realize that although there is, you know, there are some things in common, it is very seems very freeform, you know, it can be anything from some religions, that require like a one year internship under an already ordained person and putting this many hours of service work in, and then, you know, a series of in person interviews and all of this stuff. And then there are some where it is, you know, very, very much not that, of course, I mean, there's like Universal Life Church where you just click a button, but I'm excluding that for the purposes of this conversation, but even like, within the ones that are more, you know, they're interested in nurturing a clergy, there are still, you know, some where it's like, well, you need to have a recommendation from the head of a, you know, a congregation or, you know, the community that you have been a part of, for more than three years, or whatever. And you have to, like, do this, this and this, sometimes there's a test, sometimes there isn't. It was so much variety that I began to sort of, you know, just for my own self and trying to figure out how to craft something right, I began to sort of despair, like, I was like, How can I know what is actually part of what's needed? So then I turn to look for on the sort of government side after already having explored a wide range of religious side, femicide there, it's even worse. Because what they don't tell you. What they don't tell you is that government doesn't actually get its fingers into that. Like, I was able to get myself so frustrated and feeling adrift, was that the word that the person use, feeling adrift? Absolutely. Because I would go to all of these different, you know, individual state, state government websites, you know, what are the requirements for someone to be able to legally solemnize a marriage? You know, it can usually be ordained minister of, you know, any religious tradition? And I'm like, oh, okay, surely, surely, somewhere in this government documents, they will go on to describe what it takes for this to be true. But know, all that you need is a letter, a certificate, an ID, a letter from a church saying, Yes, this person has gone through our process of becoming ordained, and has has been granted by us all of the rights associated with that within our church. So from the government's point of view, is as long as there is a church that is a legally rent recognized church entity that is willing to write the letter and make give you the certificate, and that says, This person has gone through our process, whatever that is, and has all of the authority to, you know, perform, has all the rights and, and permissions associated with that role, or whatever the phrasing is. And that's, that's all they care about. So So then, like, I really it was, in some ways, it was kind of freeing. I did do some additional research on the legal side of it, because there are, I wouldn't, you know, again, I referred to this already. Being the Satanic Temple, we are under a lot of scrutiny. We're under a lot of potential criticism, right for an accusation of like, Are they real religion, etc, etc. So there are certain things that I did put into our program, specifically to guard against the kinds of accusations that we might expect. So for example, there are states that have nullified, Universal Life Church of Oregon or, you know, marriages that were solemnized by university lecturers, Minister, because the Universal Life Church is one of those places where you just fill in your email and click a button and you're ordained the in that legal case, the, you know, nullified, that the argument of the of the judge in that case was that there was in or the legal theory, right, insufficient connection between the ordaining body and the ordained. And so, and you know, and so research on things like that part of the reason that we require renewal every year, is to guard against the possible accusation that if someone was ordained 20 years ago, and are still doing stuff, that there's insufficient connection, so that's actually there for that reason. We, you know, again, for four reasons similar to that, you know, we you have to provide, what information are we required to provide your birthday? And you know, your address just internally, we're not going to put it anywhere, but like, have it on file so that if a court order says we wouldn't, we want to make sure that you, the Satanic Temple, know who your ministers are? had that little bit of extra information supports that in court? So these are there were a lot of little things that I did do trying to look at the legal cases, basically looking at the question of what are cases where the actions or the validity of ordained ministers have been challenged, and sort of bacon things to guard against those.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:02:00
And And just to clarify, so there will be a database of ministers, but that will be strictly confidential, none of that information will be released, it is purely for legal reasons.

Greg Stevens 1:02:13
It's for legal reasons, it will be confidential, it will not even that because that information isn't actually needed to be, you know, online as part of the database of like the satanic ministry.com. website, it's not going to even be housed in like in that same in the same database that that that website is so

Stephen Bradford Long 1:02:33
so create one website.

Greg Stevens 1:02:35
Right, exactly, it won't be there. Well, we are figuring out, we are figuring out a system so that people can do some basic verification of whether or not someone who is claiming to be an active ordained minister, whether that is an actual claim, everybody wants to ordain, everyone's going to have a unique Minister ID number that's going to be printed on their ID card, it's going to be under certificate, and it's going to be something that is the F and that it's going to be there partially because if a minister is going to register to perform a at a county clerk's office, because they want to perform a wedding and one of the places that requires ministers to register, that county clerk depending on how ornery they are, may feel they need the ability to verify. So there's a little phone number, this little way to check and you know, we have to be willing to say, oh, yeah, this, this ID number is an act of you know, if they say the ID number, and the last name, we can say, Yep, those match and that's active. Now, we've been trying to think of ways to implement something that maybe look operable, even like online, but we want to be very careful. It could be something simple, like a place on the website where someone can key in, you know, the minister ID number and the first three letters of the last name and say, either match or no match like either yes, this is an active ordained minister No, as a very simple check. So if someone is, is claiming, you know, to be an ordained minister, there's a simple way to get at least a first pass validation. But this is all so that's an idea that we have, the reason I bring it up is because we do recognize there's a need for some ability to verify things, but none of the verification methods are in any way going to require the personal information, including full real name is stored in a database that is accessible through the website or that is, you know, something that people would be able to get into.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:40
Yeah, definitely. Because, I mean, being a Satanist is very stigmatized and a lot of areas and so protecting their identity is super important. So yeah, take we take that seriously.

Greg Stevens 1:04:53
Absolutely. Now, I will say it this just seems do get into an interesting realm here. For people who want to legally perform wedding ceremonies, in some states, not in all states, in some states, they, when they require a minister beforehand, to go in to the county clerk, show their legal ID, their certificate of ordination, the letter from the church saying, Yes, this is a ordain person, and fill out a form and register. And there are some states that publish that list. And so like, and we're gonna put all this in documentation as well, like, you know, for our ministers, so they're aware of this, if you do not want your real name published as ministers, then, like, you know, there's nothing that we as TST can do, because that's a law in that state. It's not all states, I think it's a minority of states that have that kind of arrangement. But like, check to make sure that, you know, if you don't want that to happen, check to make sure that, you know, when you're when your friend asks you to solve them needs their their marriage, the it's not going to be in a place that will require that right. So this isn't something that is going to be like this, you know, people who are ordained by the Satanic Temple, are in no way, going to automatically have their real name, you know, accessible to the public or on any kind of list or anything like that. But if they want to additionally, like perform weddings in certain specific states, then it's possible that those states have transparency laws. And so that's something that it would be up to the Minister to sort of, you know, check that and then be voluntary, like they can always just choose not to perform weddings in that state.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:06:46
Perfect. All right. One final question. Someone on Discord asks if people can pay to study the materials of the program without actually going, will there be? Let me see if I can rephrase this? Will there be an option for people to pay to study the materials of the program without actually going through with the ordination process? For example, if they're ineligible for some reasons, such as I don't know, age,

Greg Stevens 1:07:17
right, that took a weird left turn at the end.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:07:20
Okay, so for, for example, like someone under 18.

Greg Stevens 1:07:24
Oh, interesting. Yeah. Okay. So, at first, I was like, what, are they too old to take the course? And okay. That's so this is a good question. So, because people who would be ineligible might include people who are under 18 People who are interested in the coursework, but they're actually not members of this extra? Do we want to allow that? That's an interesting question. We can

Stephen Bradford Long 1:07:55
talk later.

Greg Stevens 1:07:56
Yeah, like? So the answer to this question is like, this is something that's been evolving, because at first, you know, it was just like, Oh, we're just gonna offer ordination, you either get ordained to the whole thing, or you don't do it at all. And that was kind of the initial concept. There was so much interest right in and there were so many people, and I didn't like I expected there be interest, but I didn't expect you to be so many people who literally reached reached out and said that there were, we're willing to pay money. It's not that we're trying to get something for free. It's just that, you know, we we can't actually do this full thing. But we still want take the course. So that in addition to the fact that there are going to be because we're rolling out first only in the US, but we have a lot of international members, and international, you know, leaders as well. So our the thinking of this has evolved over time. This is where this is where we are right now,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:08:50
as of March 9. Yeah, exactly. Like like this shit changes real fast sometimes. So by the time this comes out, hopefully there won't be new developments. But just so everyone knows, we are recording this on March 9, and I will be releasing this as soon as I possibly can. So hopefully this will be relevant when it still comes out.

Greg Stevens 1:09:10
And I'm sure I don't I actually don't expect that many changes, you know, moving forward, there were a lot of changes moving up because it was a matter of service trying to think through what to make available, what to offer, is it the same price, is that cheaper? You know, it seems like it should be a little cheaper because we don't need the background check people who aren't going to be ordained and the background check as part of the costs. So, after thinking through all those details, this is where we are right now, when it opens up so that you are able to register as a candidate, you will have two registration options, you will be able to register as a ordination candidate or as a non ordination seeking student serve similar to the idea like in universities the non degree seeking right to take a course taking courses as an undergrad, Sikhism similar idea. So, the full ordination program is $149, the non ordination seeking will be $99. And the difference is both, you're going to get access to going through the coursework, after the coursework is done. If you're on the non ordination seeking track, then that's the end of it for you. If you're if you're seeking ordination, then you have the next steps of things like the background checks, the letter of approval, these are things that, again, are described, if you're not familiar, you're just described on the standard ministry.com website. So you so the people on both sides will be able to proceed through all the coursework up to the final exam. If you're on the non ordination course, like, I don't know, we haven't designed to yet but maybe some sort of, you could email us some cute digital, like certificate of completion of the coursework or whatever. But it wouldn't be an ordination certificate, it would just be like you complete it, you graduated from this course. And then the other detail of this that I think is important is, if you are, if the only requirements that you don't fulfill is that you are in a, you're outside the US, and you fully intend to become ordained. Once it rolls out to other countries, then you will have an opportunity when we reach out to other countries to pay the difference only and go through, you know the rest of the steps. And it'll be we won't have to retake the coursework. It'll be we're trying to simplify the process for people if literally, the only reason they're not in No, they're not getting redeemed now is because of their because they're outside the US now, whether, again, this is sort of something, is there gonna be some time limit, like if you go through the noncoding trek now and in 10 years, decide you want to be ordained, is that going to be allowed? Or is there a time limit, honestly, like, that sort of stuff is still sort of being decided on. But in principle, I want to encourage once we roll it out, once it becomes available to you, if you absolutely intend to become ordained, but you live in France, or Canada or Australia, and so we're not quite there yet. You can register as a non ordination seeking candidate, pay the $99. And then when we get to your country, only pay the difference, only do whatever the additional steps are not the coursework, and you will then be ordained after that.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:12:41
You mentioned the fees, just for the sake of full transparency. Where are those fees going? What what are they covering? And and where, like, what what's the purpose for for the fees for the ordination program?

Greg Stevens 1:12:55
Well, I mean, the entire program cost money to start up and has ongoing costs. Yes. Um, so like, there's an online online learning platform, we, you know, we wanted to, we wanted to really do it right, and use a, you know, the platforms that we're using for the assessment, you know, quizzes and tests, and the actual, you know, online course, we wanted to use one that, you know, automatically includes with it, all of the taken care of, and having, you know, being able to deal with all of the accessible, various accessibility needs, various security needs, you know, there are a lot of things that we didn't need to reinvent from scratch, because online coursework is a thing, right. But you have to pay, like, you know, to use Windows systems that is very thorough, and, you know, handles all of these different sorts of accessibility security things like so with costs, you know, a constant accustomed to start off, it costs something on an annual basis, this same thing with the distribution, you know, of having the assessments to quizzes and tests, and other things as well. So there are a lot of costs associated with it. Initially, when we start rolling out, plus all the people that are testing in the first wave, or it's going to be free. All of the people who are currently in leadership, they're going to be required to take it to stay in leadership, we're making it free for them, because everything will be fair, it just wouldn't be ethical to say that you're already in this leadership position. And now you have to pay money to stay in it. That's weird. So it's going to be free for them. So we're actually putting off because we want to do brief be principles and we want to be, you know, good stewards of the community. We're putting off our actual generation of any revenue for a pretty long time and while we're accruing all these costs, so when you ask, where's the money going to go? My first answer is we're going to try to break even eventually, eventually, hopefully, we will achieve that. And once we do, I would love have to use any money, you know, beyond the break even point to go into really, you know, as I said before the earlier question about like, what's your vision for the, you know, the program in five years or 10 years and I talked about enriching the tools and resources we have available to our ministers, I would love to be able to reinvest in, you know, really improving what's available to our ordained ministers, and giving more perks not just in terms of doing research on, you know, let me know, there's there are certain sorts of certification programs that in addition to just being ordained, ministers would have to do if they want to do Hospice Visits. Sometimes those costs money, I would love for this program to actually generate enough revenue after breaking even to be able to cover that for our ministers who want to do it. Like these are things that I absolutely fantasize about being able to do, once we get to that point, it's going to be a while, because, you know, I know that I don't want to sound dismissive of this, I do know that for a lot of individuals, you know, $149 is not trivial. And I completely understand that. But I also want to emphasize that like, you know, nobody's getting rich off of this either aren't because there are a lot of expenses involved. And there's a lot of stuff, you know, that is the we already have been building in the background for ordained ministers. And that is where I would like to focus all of our attention is adding even more so that in the future,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:16:36
yeah, no one's going to be running away to Palm Springs with with the money in other words, like this. So all of the fees, they really do go either to just covering the basic cost of maintenance for this program, or they and once that's covered, once, once it breaks, even then it will really go to enriching, that's the wrong word. It will go to it will go to building the ordination. Even more so.

Greg Stevens 1:17:10
And honestly, like, if we get if we get so much interest in this, that there is, you know, I would love I mean, jeez, we have people have put so much time it takes the the people who have created these initial 10 lessons in the core curriculum, put their hearts and souls even though I don't believe in souls, not sure I believe in hearts, not just kidding. But they've put everything into they've put everything into creating these, they put a lot of time into researching it and filming it. And we're going to be asking for people who are interested in different topics to create the elective lessons that I mentioned earlier, I would love for this program to get, you know, stable enough that we could we could do something, as a way of showing our appreciation and respect for the time is something financial, that we have right now. Right now, it's all volunteers. I would love for it to be more than that. But again, you know, this is the sort of thing that like, when you ask, what's the money you get? When we have money? This is what I would like to do with it. You know? Definitely. And, yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot of possibility out there.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:18:30
I was talking to one of the one of the creators of one of the lessons and they said that doing the lesson, make creating that lesson was the hardest and most taxing intellectually taxing thing they had done since completing their master's program.

Greg Stevens 1:18:49
Yeah, people, people, I working with people too. With that, because, you know, we started off with an overall, like, the topics of each of the lessons came from the CNN. And then, you know, I was listening to flesh out, you know, a little bit of like, you know, making sure that we had a common understanding of what more specific things should be covered. But then after that, it was all in the hands of the people who presented lessons. And that was on purpose because, one, we chose people to present the lessons based on people who we knew had the background and experience and knowledge to present that lesson. It was partially expertise, but also because it was it was important, I thought, you know, I definitely think it's important that the people who are presenting lesson feel connected to something they're passionate about and that they feel, you know, really invested in because that comes across, you know, when they present the lessons, so it was very much in their hands to have like, Hey, this is the overall topic. These are some bullet points of things to cover, but each of them A presenter has created the lessons themselves. So I, you know, I appreciate so much that you know what you just said from there one person I'm sure is a sentiment that is echoed by most, if not all, of the people who did the lessons like they put everything into these things. And I appreciate that so much.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:20:18
Absolutely. Is there anything else that we need to cover? I think I think we're close to wrapping up.

Greg Stevens 1:20:23
This has been fantastic. Thank you so much for having me on. This has been I feel like these have been great questions. So I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to these things.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:20:33
Absolutely. And if there are any questions that weren't answered here, do go check out the satanic or do go check out satanic ministry.com. If you have questions, it will probably be there. And in the coming weeks. If you have any other questions, you can reach out through the website. Yeah, you can reach out through the website.

Greg Stevens 1:20:54
And I also people can reach out to me on Twitter. I'm at Greg Stevens on Twitter, and I only i don't i It might take me a little while I'm not constantly on Twitter. And it's possible that I might miss it. But I you know, that's the only social media platform that I check regularly anymore. So people can feel free to engage me on Twitter with questions about ministry as well if they would like

Stephen Bradford Long 1:21:19
perfect. All right, well, that is it for this show. The music is by the jelly rocks and eleventy seven you can find them on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to music. As always, the show is made possible by my amazing patrons, my own personal lords and saviors who ensure that I can bring you interesting content every single week until I die. And if you want to join their number, please go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long for $1 $3 $5 a month you get extra content every single week conversations with my Christian pastor friend Timothy, ranging from from politics to religious stuff to Satanism to whatever's in the news that particular day or week. The show is written produced and edited by me and Dante salmoni and this is a production of raw candy recordings as always Hail Satan and thanks for listening don't think. Read the script

1:23:34
Right

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STLucienGreavesRighttoOffend

2022-10-11T08:06:10Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STLucienGreavesRighttoOffend
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, free speech, blasphemy, salman rushdie, offense, feel, tst, offended, hear, alex jones, satan, offensive, satanic, ben shapiro, idea, disgust, criticism, norms, questions, thought
SPEAKERS
Doug Misicko, Stephen Bradford Long, Lucien Greaves

Stephen Bradford Long 00:13
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long. And once again, I am here with the one and only Lucien Greaves, co founder and spokesperson of the Satanic Temple. Hi, how are you?

Doug Misicko 00:32
Very good. Thank you.

Stephen Bradford Long 00:33
We're doing this intro all over again, because I hit record. And then about seven minutes in, I noticed that it wasn't recording your audio. So we had to like, I had to like, figure out what the fuck was going on and restart. So hi, hello again. So the audience will miss that whole section where we talked about Kashia at the beginning, and you're apparently friends with her. And there's like an unreleased Kashia Lucian interview that hasn't come out. And everyone should go on Twitter and petition her to release that, that that forgotten Lucien Greaves interview. And then the idea was aired that maybe Kashia and satanic planet could do like some some crossover song, and you offered no comment on that. And that was the moment when I realized that I hadn't hit record. We're not going to rehash all that territory. We'll just leave people in suspense.

Doug Misicko 01:34
Yeah, well, maybe she should just interview me again. Because the original interview she did with me was, I don't know, past past February or something like that. It could be outdated by now.

Stephen Bradford Long 01:45
Who knows? All right. So yeah, well, tell tell your good friend Kashia that your friend Steven loves her new show conjuring Kashia

Doug Misicko 01:58
I'm not going to do that.

Stephen Bradford Long 02:01
Good. You shouldn't you really shouldn't. All right. Well, so you had a thing. You had a movie thing? Up in Salem. Since last we talked. It was like in between shows that we did. So how did that go? What did you do? What was the thing?

Doug Misicko 02:16
Well, that it, you know, apparently went really well. I wasn't really an audience member. I was I was the talent, you know, with cash. I know, a lot of people wanted to come weren't able to make it. Unfortunately, it really turned out to be bad timing for a lot of people. But we didn't know that when we started planning this, I had started, you know, live streaming movie nights, pretty much at the beginning of the pandemic as a way to have some kind of social interaction with people. And in the sidebar of chat, where the film is streaming, and tst. TV, we, we just make fun of these horrible movies that play, you know, I specialize in finding obscure low budget terrible, but entertaining films, entertaining, at least watch in that kind of setting. And so we've been doing that for, you know, going on three years now. And it was always an idea that we would do an in person movie night, when conditions allowed for it. You know, earlier on during the pandemic, of course, nothing was going on if this kind of nature and venues or anything like that. But, you know, even given all this time, and the restrictions lifted on masks and things like that, we were kind of in a COVID surge anyways, at the point where we did this in person Movie Night, and that wasn't lost on people. And some people didn't want to come for that reason. And other people, of course, because travel expenses were about four times their their norm. A lot of people stayed home too. But it was still a good crowd. And, you know, most importantly, in my mind, satanic planet, played, my band played its first show, which was a surprise show for the in person movie night during intermission we took to the stage and in there we went first show ever. It's amazing. I didn't realize that was your first show. Not only was it the first show, it felt like it was the first time we had actually kind of performed together in any coherent way because we had very little time we that we had given ourselves to do rehearsals, and the rehearsals were all a disaster before the actual live show.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:41
How so how were they disasters?

Doug Misicko 04:43
Well, it was mostly technical problems. You know, I was encountering problems of feedback with this effects processor. I was using problems of compression to the point where, you know, I was is getting very unpredictable results from the microphone being like, I could shout into it, and you'd hear nothing, and then all of a sudden, it would come in way too hot. And then we were in a real tight kind of restrictive rehearsal setting. And when we started playing with the drummers and everything, I couldn't hear a fucking thing. And then I, there was a kind of panic about, well, you know, what, if I can't hear my cues, doing this live, you know, like, the idea that I'm not actually going to be able to hear where the track is that while I'm supposed to be on time with my vocals and everything else. So, you know, ended up buying in ear monitor, you know, your bud piece to, yep, to hear what's going on better, and, you know, some other equipment and but then we got into the venue, and they had a great sound system. And some of that seems superfluous, because we could actually hear ourselves and, you know, and we, we delivered, I think, in a way that indicated that we were far more prepared than we actually were, and I'm happy with that outcome. That's always a good feeling. Yeah, cuz it seemed really idiotic of me at the time. Just before we were doing this, I thought, Well, shit. And I also put myself in a position where we're live streaming this, you know, we haven't had a successful run yet. And this is our first performance. Oh, my God, live stream it so that everybody can have this for for eternity, if, if it goes terribly wrong?

Stephen Bradford Long 06:36
Uh huh. Well, I'm glad it didn't go terribly wrong. Something that not many people know about me is that I went to school for classical music. I was a classical vocalist. And so there were seasons when I was performing every single week, and the anxiety of just thinking about any kind of situation where anything can go wrong on stage still, like over a decade later just terrifies me. The, the, the anxiety is so overwhelming. So yeah, that's, that's impressive that you got through that? Well, I

Doug Misicko 07:13
got I have to say, I still think it's, it's less impressive than doing the ad hoc speaking engagements with q&a and stuff like that. I think I still think that's a bit more rough. You know, I have an exact script for satanic planet. Right now I have a very well defined series of, of actions I go through and, you know, the vocals are all written for that. And that's what I do. There's no q&a afterwards. There's no reason for anybody to be so upset that they come and stab me up on the stage show, boy.

Stephen Bradford Long 07:50
Okay, so actually. So, before we get to that, I just realized that I forgot to thank my patrons, I won't go into my regular spiel. Because we're already into the show. I did the regular spiel about patrons about Patreon in the last cut that didn't get recorded, but Arthur Robert, Rory chatting cat thank you so much, and other people who might want to become patrons, you can do that@patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long there's also a link in the show notes. All right. Um, yeah, so you brought up the topic of stabbing on a stage as is so often the case when we do a show so much happens. There is so there is so much in the news to talk about. And in this situation, the renowned author Salman Rushdie, Salman Rushdie, I don't really know how to say his last name Salman Rushdie, the author of The Satanic Verses was stabbed on stage because his book The Satanic Verses is considered offensive to a lot of religious people.

Doug Misicko 08:57
Right and a fatwa was issued 33 years ago now on

Stephen Bradford Long 09:01
these in the fatwa is, is as old as me. I was one year old when that when that thing happened, and now 30 years later, he is or 33 years later, he was

Doug Misicko 09:18
10 times on stage in upstate New York. But it does look like he'll recover. In the New York Times published an article just just yesterday or today. In the title of it was something, something to the effect of that the Rushdi stabbing has revived free speech debates, and I've seen a lot of op eds, you know, from defenders of free speech talking about why it's important and hopefully people can see that now with this incident and things like that. But honestly, I don't think that This stabbing has provoked any debate. No, I

Stephen Bradford Long 10:02
don't. I don't think it has i Well, and the reason I don't think it has is because this has been 30 years in the making. Well, it's just fallen on deaf

Lucien Greaves 10:12
ears in a world now where, you know, previously it was 1989 when the fatwa was issued against Salman Rushdie. And at the time, Jimmy Carter wrote an op ed in New York Times saying that, you know, he thought the book was very offensive. And he took that, that position where, you know, essentially, we shouldn't be applauding this kind of offensive speech, and we shouldn't promote it, we shouldn't amplify it. But the First Amendment stands, and it's important and all that, which I feel is kind of nonsensical, but cowardly. Yeah, it's cowardly. But it's not as offensively cowardly, I don't think is the people who won't stand by the First Amendment, even in the circumstances, and instead, just insist that, you know, we must do away with the concept of free speech entirely. Yeah. And, you know, for the New York Times to say, this has revived the debate on free speech. I think, you know, all we're really seeing right now is the defenders of free speech, feeling emboldened to come out and say that they defend free speech and artistic liberty and all of that. But I'm really not seeing the articles from the anti free speech sides giving the however, and I think that that's because we live in an environment now where people take this ala carte attitude towards their issues. And if one scenario is troublesome, they'll simply ignore it for something that's more conducive to their argument. So, you know, they'll ignore Salman Rushdie. And then, you know, in the same very end the very same day, they're likely to draw a tenuous relationships between certain media and certain events, suggesting that we need to do away with free speech. I mean, the calling for somebody's death, you know, harassing people, libel, defamation, those kinds of things. They're already illegal. Yeah, right. But what we have now is a real push to to E legalize offensive speech. And we've gotten this from the beginning of the the inception of the Satanic Temple. I've seen messages all the time from people saying, if it weren't for our fourth tenant, they could stand by us. And our fourth tenant, of course, upholds the freedom to offend. Yes. And some people just don't understand why we even have that in, you know, I wonder if these people have any understanding, you know, even 10, gently of who we are, you know, to wonder why we could stand up for the freedom to offend, you know, in this current culture, of, you know, of perceived violations against minority communities based upon other people's offensive behavior. I don't understand how people fail to see that we are a marginalized, religious minority community. And we do deal with death threats all the time, we do fully understand the dangers of free speech. But we also understand that people see what we do as offense. And you know, it there's a real cognitive dissonance amongst that crowd who could embrace what we do, but also fail to recognize how what we do is dependent upon free speech to simply say, well, your speech isn't offensive, because you're not doing this or whatever, is to ignore the fact that they've set standards and by which they're not the ones to decide what's offensive, the offended do. And so when Catholics take the liberty of claiming that what we do is so offensive to them that it's tantamount to hate speech. And us doing any activity publicly is similar to allowing, you know, a kk k rally or whatever else, which also shouldn't be illegal is is entirely misconstrued. It's, the arguments are so are so incoherent sometimes that I wish that there was a revived debate about free speech going on that people were talking about the limits and what they actually want, when they call for further restrictions. And maybe it could lead to some discussion over how that could backfire on us, you know, if we start calling for Are you no prohibition against offensive speech that isolates any particular minority? Where does that end? And who exactly are the minorities even in the Rushdie case? It's not clear. Right, Rushdie was born into an Indian Kashmiri Muslim family. So are we really to say that he has no place being critical of Islam, you know, anybody who's grown up in an environment where they have a belief system imposed upon them, can't then be expected to shut up about whatever, whatever criticisms they have in to have that kind of that kind of perspective in which you think they should, I think, takes a really kind of patronizing position towards other cultures, societies, ethnicities, races and everything else. Because, you know, we don't afford that same kind of latitude towards our religious majorities here. People don't do that. If people don't feel that way about offending Catholics here, and people are really going to cry in defense of theocratic Iran, when they call for a fatwa against Salman Rushdie, I guess it's just that provincial notion that everything's the same everywhere in the world as it is in the United States. And that, you know, the Muslim populations are a minority anywhere they go and feel a unique sting of American readers reading something they feel is defamatory against them. And if in 20 years from now, the United States is very much in the midst of its own theocracy, which, you know, is not out of the question. I imagine how patronizing it would be to hear people overseas from other cultures, denigrating heretics like us, and saying we absolutely have no right to pick on it. This, this rich culture of Christianity that we clearly don't understand, right? Even though we've grown up in this environment, we've been, we've, we've felt the, the oppressive sting of their attempts to legislate our lives. And then we're going to deal with people telling us that we're, we're too we're too insensitive and our criticisms against that. That's, that's what I see when I see this kind of thing. Yeah, and I don't humane

Stephen Bradford Long 17:47
it's it's paternalistic, inhumane, a combination of like anti human coddling to say, oh, you know, Salman Rushdie, he has no right to to, you know, hurt the feelings of a religious community in this way. And, you know, today i i was watching kind of some vintage Footage from 30 years ago, when the fatwa was first announced against Salman Rushdie and the the fear are in the streets of Muslim majority countries, the rage, the righteous rage, and the disgust and the anger and the hurt. And it really, when you see something like that it really drives home the reality that offense is not a barometer for truth. Offense on its own means nothing offense on its own, is any emotion and that's it. We don't have to elevate it to any sort of truth, the truth might be elsewhere. And in fact, I think most of the time the truth is elsewhere and is not necessarily somehow embedded in the offense that we all feel, you know, the in this human reaction, but it's such a deceptive emotion because it feels so righteous offense feels so righteous and has such a sense of moral clarity to it, but that's an illusion. And you can watch these riots of Muslims in the streets burning effigies of Salman Rushdie and realize that the moral compass is just broken their moral compass, their their offense meter was just broken. It was it was misfiring in that occasion. And if we elevate offense to the love to the status of truth, or morality, then we're just in big fucking trouble because offense is just an emotion sometimes there's truth beneath it, but very often Often there isn't. Right,

Lucien Greaves 20:02
right. And I feel like, you know, the the mainstream attitude was towards Muslims was, you know that you have every right to be offended. And you know, but however, and you know, I'm not even sure about that, do you really have a right to be offended when you indoctrinate children into a into a particular belief system and then demand that they have no criticism of it for the rest of their lives? Right, you know? Or how did how does anybody know what Rushdie's experiences you know, I know people who still identify as Christian, and I don't hold it against them. It doesn't work for me, I can never see this mythology as an embodiment of my ideals. But people who hold very similar values to me can't see it any other way. They have a liberal interpretation of Christianity. They have a different background, they have a different upbringing, these things mean different things to them. Right? Yep. And to Rushdi Islam means something that it doesn't mean to a lot of the Muslims I met growing up in Michigan, who were all very moderate Muslims, and certainly not, you know, wants to endorse the fatwa or anything like that, right. And I have sympathy for them, too. But I feel like if I were to have a dialogue about this, I would just tell them like, those very things, you're like, you don't know this guy's background, you don't know what he's dealt with. And, yes, this is so ubiquitous. And, and important, honestly, like a religion reaches that point, it becomes important, whether it's all an illusion, or are based upon, you know, misguided mythology or not, you know, you know, the Pope is a powerful person, just because people imagine that he is, you know, and then then you have the power of numbers behind you, and that kind of thing. You have to be able to offer criticism, you have to be able to dissect these things and scrutinize them, ask questions and in nobody should be able to stop you from that. And there's, you know, an untold value in that, that I think, you know, I can't do justice to win in florid prose, but it is essential to any free and democratic society. And we should be very careful. We put any prohibitions, you know, beyond those that we have, on offensive speech taking offense is not a legitimate criticism, it never has been merely taking offense. That is, yeah, like, you can think about things that, you know, are of significant consequence, like putting, putting fatwas out, you know, death threats upon people and things like that, you know, we can be offended by those things, but they're not illegal just because they're offensive. And we don't leave it to somebody else to just tell us they're offended and say that something should not stand because of it. That's not, it's not a legitimate reason to ban anything. It never has been, it never will be. And I feel like, instead of seeing a renewed debate about free speech, we're seeing intellectual cowardice from the anti free speech crowd that has never bothered to answer the difficult questions. And I know this personally, because I've written essays about free speech, where I pose these questions where I ask, like, in a case of a guy like Salman Rushdie is, are we to consider him, you know, assimilated into the broader non-believing population? That's non Islamic. When he when he becomes an apostate of Islam, or as an apostate of Islam? Is he a minority within a minority, deserving of even greater protections? You know, those are the kinds of questions I would expect from this kind of debate if a debate were being had. But as I said, I don't see that debate happening. I see people just treating this idea as something to score points with on social media, you know, and they take, they take a very extreme stance, and they ignore whatever scenarios they don't like. And I feel like this Salman Rushdie case is exactly that. I'm not seeing a whole lot of people saying this time around. I'm not seeing a whole lot of people saying like, well, however, he should have known better or whatever. I feel like now people are accustomed to just waiting till the new cycle goes and waiting for an argument that's more conducive or set of circumstances more conducive to their their position, so they don't have to You don't have to take a principled stand, that applies generally, they just like to pick and choose.

Stephen Bradford Long 25:05
Right, you know, the ACLU, which used to be the bastion of free. So they've said nothing, they had nothing. And that to me, I think just that, to me is symptomatic of the response to this whole thing. I mean, like you said, the pro free speech, people are, you know, emboldened jumping all over jumping all over it, you know, people like us are jumping all over it and making it a topic of conversation. But, but I think a lot of a lot of other people in the, you know, quote, unquote, discourse are just, it's just crickets. And it's the same with the ACLU, which used to be, you know, the greatest bastion of free speech in the United States, or one of at least, and they've, they I, in my opinion, they've completely lost their way in recent years as as defenders of free speech, and they have been dead silence, at least as of this recording. They have been dead, silent. And

Lucien Greaves 26:06
yeah, and it's been, it's been almost a week. Now, it has

Stephen Bradford Long 26:10
been almost a week. So I doubt they will say anything, but how do I want to say this, okay, so I know Catholics, for whom satanic imagery, say, the black mass, for example, and the black mass is an inversion and blasphemy of the Catholic mass. And that that is specifically what makes it a black mass is that it is a an inversion of the primary features of the Catholic mass, there are Catholics for whom the very existence of a black mass happening is just a form of psychic psychological torture. To them. It is a it is a sort of heartbreak and torture and offense that to my eyes seems unbearable. And I remember having a conversation not with a Catholic, but with a Christian friend of mine, who was generally very supportive and very, you know, very, very progressive, and were great friends. But I read some sections of a black mass to him and he just burst into tears. He just started sobbing because the there was such a powerful visceral response, and they owe where do I want to go with this that sense of heartbreak at a symbol being used in the quote unquote, wrong way, that sense of heartbreak and confronting that heartbreak and confronting that offense and that anguish, it that's kind of necessary to living in a democracy in a pluralistic democracy. And so, you know, another example, I just recently read Naked Lunch by William S. Burroughs. And I mean, just total levels of depravity, just like unbelievable levels of depravity, and it came out in the 60s. And I'm like, I cannot even imagine how America in the 60s responded to this book. And William S. Burroughs was a was a champion of free speech. And the reason is, because that that feeling of gross ness and offense, a pluralistic society demands that we maybe not 100% defeated people may never completely overcome that disgust response, but at least that it be contained enough so that we can have a cooperative body politic, right. And when I look at the response to Salman Rushdie, in parts of the Islamic world caveat, not the entire Islamic world, but you know, and definitely in certain parts of it in certain theocratic corners. That's a that is a level of disgust that does not allow for any sort of pluralistic existence whatsoever.

Lucien Greaves 29:07
Well, yeah, I mean, going back, though, to the idea of the black mass, and this bringing somebody into tears, I think there's, it's a, it's a very unsophisticated view a lot of people have when it comes to blasphemy, which I would hope anybody who has any affinity for Satanism would realize that the blasphemous is important to us internally, you know, personally, and not just something we engage with because we're hoping it'll piss somebody off in our immediate proximity at the moment. We're doing it like to us, you know, blasphemy itself has the transcendent value that other people get from the mainstream religious team. teachings themselves, perhaps our ability to remove ourselves from it, to take the things that we've been indoctrinated with, and embrace their opposite even, even when we've been told that those things will put us into a pit of eternal torment, or that, you know, these are thoughts that must not be thought, you know, there's a very liberating feeling that comes from being able to embrace blasphemy. And a lot of us, you know, came to Satanism in that way where we might have been unbelievers, but you still have that visceral response to something that's been so imprinted upon you. Yeah, that is the blasphemy that relevance. And in that way, blasphemy is very important. And even though we have our own affirmative values, and we're totally willing to accept it, when those values are in line with somebody, or some group or church that identifies themselves as Christian, or whatever, you know, we don't simply change our point of view to be the opposite of what somebody else says. You know, you can call off and define anything by its opposites. You know, and for a lot of Satanists, we feel that a lot of our values are diametrically opposite of those that were traditionally imposed by the Christian religion. And that's a legitimate viewpoints, that's a viewpoint that isn't one meant merely to provoke and offend. You know, it's, it's it, it can be a viewpoint held by responsible adult thinking people, and it can be a very legitimate religious viewpoint as well. So to treat blasphemy in this way, as though it's always just an effort to offend the true believers and adherence of a religious practice is beyond insulting to the reality on the ground, in, you know, not to beat a dead horse. But going back to that idea of being raised in an environment and having these things imposed upon you your entire life. And then having somebody have the audacity to say that you simply don't have the understanding necessary to put these criticisms upon upon this group, because apparently, you have to agree with them enough to be one of them, to identify as one of them to have any criticism at all. Right, so that possible, so that could possibly work out. So no, there really is no excuse for the idea of standing by anti blasphemy laws. And I honestly feel that with the lack of respect, for free speech on both sides of the political spectrum, you have the right trying to ban books and burn books, again, yep, well, while simultaneously upholding themselves as the defenders of free speech when they find themselves banned from social media platforms, or whatever else. But on the opposite side of that, you find people who are dumb enough to take those right wing fanatics at their word, that they are defenders of free speech, and figuring there for free speech must be entirely abandoned. And I think that this leads inexorably eventually towards anti blasphemy laws in the United States. If the Republicans sweep their way back into power, fully realizing that they can get away with anything they want, in the wake of Trump, and desperate as ever, to appeal to an ever more militantly fundamentalist evangelical base.

Stephen Bradford Long 34:04
Right? Yeah, no one no one should buy into the Republican talking points about free speech. They talk about free speech the same way they talk about religious liberty. That was the same way they talk about religious freedom, which is basically absolute freedom for me. No freedom for those who I think are immoral, degenerate. Wrong symbol, what have you, right?

Doug Misicko 34:33
Oh, the same way they talk about the Constitution. Yeah, no idea what it says or what it stands for? Is this whatever they feel is sounds right at the moment. Well, I

Stephen Bradford Long 34:42
think this is a really important point, though, because I think one of the reasons why so many people on the left have soured towards the concept of free speech is because they've bought the far rights bullshit. They've bought the concept, that free speech is a right wing value. And maybe the reason why they've bought that lie is because their first encounter with free speech was maybe 4chan or some horrific anti semitic troll on Twitter and so on and so forth. But and I get being disgusted by all that I get being disgusted by people who say that they are acting in the name of free speech but but that Disgust is about as rational as you know, saying, oh, Religious freedom is also a right wing talking point, therefore, there's no merit in the concept of freedom of religion, right? Like it's the same logic. And so like, no one should by the right wing lie, that that they are the Bastion that they are the torchbearer of free speech because they aren't. Oh, look,

Lucien Greaves 35:53
look at that little cunt. Charlie Kirk, right? He has been floating Trump ever since Trump was first elected. He started he's this he's this little dickhead who's has it has who looks like he has hydrocephalus. He

Stephen Bradford Long 36:11
was he was the one by the way, who there's a viral footage of him from several years ago of like being in a diaper cosplaying and a diaper pretending to be a triggered snowflake on a college campus and in a diaper. And

Doug Misicko 36:26
yeah, all right. He's the defender of free speech, who also felt that the government should have intervened from satan Khan taking place. Oh, that's right. I mean, talk about prohibitions against free speech. These are not defenders of free speech by any stretch of the imagination. Yeah, but that's no excuse for, you know, any of us to match their tactics by being just as hypocritical and disingenuous, ignoring the case of Salman Rushdie in favor of claiming, well, you know, if right part weren't allowed to publish, then, you know, we speculate that, you know, so many, so many marginalized people wouldn't have been killed by police this year, whatever else, you know, whatever kind of tangential relationship they can, they can determine from anything, you know, with or without any evidence at all, or, you know, or evidence based upon lived experience, which is a, you know, which is sometimes valid as, as a means of actually listening to the populations you're talking about. But it's often abused to say, well, we just have to take everything, you know, the person we prefer to listen to says at face value without listening to anybody else. Yeah, yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 37:43
exactly. I want to I want to go back to that topic that you were just going on with about blasphemy. So as I was listening to your talk, where you were discussing how blasphemy the black mass in particular, it for us, it isn't about React or, you know, offending or attacking another faith, it is rather about taking our own trauma, our own experiences with our theocratic upbringings, and kind of through the alchemy of ritual, turning it into something transcendent. And that reminds me of something that an acquaintance named Pope Wonka said this was a while ago, this was a long time ago, but he was he was talking about the concept of high blasphemy, or maybe another way to put it is transcendent blasphemy versus reactionary blasphemy. And they both might have their place. I mean, and we can't create a world where either of them are illegal, and we can't create a world where I where either of them are forbidden, right?

Lucien Greaves 38:59
Right. And we don't want to create an environment where we have somebody at the door checking and saying, Well, which one are you? Yeah, exactly. And we end those what one one comes from the other. I feel like, I feel like at the beginning, you're likely to want to offend, you know, you feel perhaps that you were harmed, and you want to say fuck you, you know. Yep. But for some people, it's just not that and I think people evolve also, or they realize this has personal value to me, but I really have no interest in raising the ire of somebody else. However, I'm going to be true to myself, and I'm going to do what I want to do, and nobody should be restrained from doing that. And there's an important message in that, you know, there's, there's an important message for people who maybe haven't thought that deeply about these issues might have similar exposure to similar things. But you know, it's always nice to know. So always nice there. It's always going to be the apostates and blasphemers around, you know, do we want to pretend They're not there. Do we want to ignore them? Do we want to? Do we do we want to silence them just to make sure that nobody's offended?

Stephen Bradford Long 40:08
Yeah, yeah. So so I could hear someone listening to this and try to parse out what you're saying here. And they might respond with something like, okay, so what about someone like Alex Jones, where his speech has caused legitimate damage? And can any sane person really say that he should be able to say what he said, and I bring this up? Because his trial is going on in it's a complete fucking circus? And maybe we can talk about that, too. But I know, I know how I would respond to that. But how would you? How would you respond to that? Like, because it's easy for a lot of people to, to look at the term free speech, and then look at someone like Alex Jones and the untold amounts of damage that he has caused, and our culture and just be like, No, I, the concept of free speech is fundamentally flawed. And Alex Jones is the proof of why how would you respond to that?

Lucien Greaves 41:08
Well, one thing I would first say is that Alex Jones is being held accountable.

Stephen Bradford Long 41:13
And exactly what he did was illegal.

Lucien Greaves 41:15
Right. Right. And, you know, that he is being charged with defamation and other such things, and it doesn't look like it's going well, for him, but just the same, you know, you want him to have good representation in the courts, because you don't want Yep, fixation with the specific case of Alex Jones, to, you know, diminish our free speech environment, you know, in ways that become prohibitive against, you know, speaking truth to power. So, you know, there again, you know, as much as I hate Alex Jones, I want to see him get his day in court. And I also feel that for his irresponsible, is he clearly it's an irresponsible idiot, like him, you know, you can hope only comes around, you know, once every couple generations or whatever, but unfortunately, it looks like we've got a daily show of them.

Stephen Bradford Long 42:20
Yep. Right. To pandemic.

Lucien Greaves 42:23
Yeah, there's an epidemic of Alex Jones is, yep. But, but really, you know, there's, there's a lot that goes into Alex Jones, seeming credible to people that go well beyond Alex Jones, personally, as a character. And I think censoring him, doesn't do a whole lot to mitigate that. And in fact, could even make somebody like him a bit more powerful. There's a, in the conspiracy crowds, you know, censoring somebody doesn't tend to discredit them by any stretch of the imagination, it, it tends to lend more credibility, rather than anything else. And it's like, if you have to chase them around through different platforms or whatever, you're going to find an audience that's willing to do that and becoming more militant as things go on. You know, I feel like after a while, idiots like Alex Jones, tend to bury themselves. And, you know, I know there's a lot of people who like to say that

Doug Misicko 43:33
D platforming destroyed Milo Yiannopoulos. But that's revisionist history, not not in the least. The protests against Milo Yiannopoulos made him a household name. That's right. He really he really flourished after, I think it was, was at Berkeley, where they,

Stephen Bradford Long 43:54
it was the Barclays riots. Yeah, it was it, it got very dangerous very quickly. Well, and you know, there was this,

Lucien Greaves 44:02
even heard of him really, until then. And then then he was Benny was a household name. But, you know, he's the one who talked himself into oblivion, because he started justifying pedophilia, or whatever. And that's when he really collapsed. It had nothing to do with, you know, the protests against him, which only served to make him more popular. And that's the thing with a guy like Alex Jones, these ideas don't go away these ideas, they need to be confronted, and we definitely are in the throes of a real epidemic, when it comes to misinformation, fake news and things like that. And, you know, we have to find ways to mitigate the propagation of such on the internet, while still respecting the value of free speech, the principle thing like things like that, you know, you know, we really have to have that respect. You know what

Stephen Bradford Long 44:58
this is making me think of actually LEED is how so I don't know if you know this, but I used to be a big time conspiracy theorist. And so this was in my early 20s. So over over a year ago, or over a year ago, Jesus over over a decade ago, and you know, a lot of it was really wrapped up, I think in my PTSD from recently surviving a shooting at the time. And so I was hyper vigilant, and I fell down the YouTube algorithm hole and, and it was just a time of my life where conspiracy theories were very sticky for me, and and just kind of irresistible for me. And thinking back to then, when I was like, you know, when I was going down the Infowars, Alex Jones rabbit hole, and I was convinced Oh, and I was also a believer in in 2012, the whole 2012 conspiracy theory. And so back in 2010, and 2011, it was it was like impossible for me to invest in my future in any meaningful way. Because I was right, right, I was convinced that I that we were all going to die, right?

Lucien Greaves 46:13
Just Just hold there. Now imagine yourself wrapped up in that subculture online and stuff like that. And suddenly hearing that from from on high, some judges determine that you are not allowed. Yeah, exactly. Material anymore. Does anybody think for a moment that your reaction would be to say, well?

Stephen Bradford Long 46:38
Yeah, exactly wrong about everything. Yeah, it's a failure of empathy to realize the the depths of how much how deeply I believed it. And, and just thinking back to that time of my life, how would I respond if some judge said, Okay, now, you know, Alex Jones can't can't say these things anymore. I would take that as proof, I would take validation. And you know, what actually got me out of it was reading the rise and fall of the Third Reich by William sharar. Because suddenly, I was reading real history. And it slowly dawned on me that there wasn't a secret cabal running the entire world, it dawned on me that there wasn't a a group of all powerful shadow government, you know, Shadow, you know, that the Illuminati wasn't controlling all of us that it was complex human affairs, kind of muddling itself out. And so it was reading real history that got me out of that death spiral that made me realize, Oh, I've been living a delusion that I'm getting really good therapy to for trauma. For for my PTSD, right?

Lucien Greaves 47:57
It's hardly a novel observation to say that conspiracy theories have taken the place of religion in a lot of people's minds. It's a way of finding some universal coherence. There's a narrative thread through everything, there's somebody in control, whether it's completely evil or not. And even if it's completely evil, then you have a centralized evil, that should only you defeat, all the ills in the world are fixed. In some ways. Conspiracy theories are very optimistic. But look what happens when you try also to censor religious movements, which is essentially how Christianity took off. You know, we still have these lingering tales of martyrdom, is veneration of, of Christians fed to the lions in ancient Rome? Yep. You know, nothing really made that a long term, sustainable religion, then its marginalization and the attempts to censor it from I mean, the idea that you can, you know, just prohibit these ideas from being spread, and thereby dismantle them entirely, is, I think, been proven wrong again and again, and has done no small amount of damage.

Stephen Bradford Long 49:25
Yeah, absolutely. So if censorship doesn't work, then then what are the strategies? So so how do you counter the bad ideas? So let's take the most toxic deranged conspiracy theories what what are the strategies then that we do try to inject some rationality and reality into this dynamic because you know, If censorship is off the table, then what do we do?

Doug Misicko 50:04
Right. And in I think, at this point, we have to look at what's unique about now. You know, it's like we've been dealing with conspiracy theories, from the very beginning. You know, whenever media was propagated, you know, there's always been fake news, there's always been dumb ideas. There's always been radicalized movements and stuff like that, what's unique about now, that makes this a situation in which, you know, people are again talking about prohibiting free speech after we had a period of entrenchment where, you know, people took, as, you know, a, and understood platitude that free speech was a fundamental value in democracy and in everything else, and I feel like, well, the idea of the marketplace of ideas where good ideas can counter bad ideas. And in eventually, the truth will win out has been compromised, by the way the big tech companies run their algorithms online, people have the impression that they're in an open marketplace of ideas online. But really, they're in their insulated bubbles, where they're being served a day luge of news and opinions, that are thoughts to match those that they already hold, because those are more conducive to their interaction, or, you know, just they're going to be showing the opinions that they're more most likely to interact with, even if they outrage them, or, or whatever. But they're also just seeing seeing a very limited sliver of what's available and what opinions are. So everybody is under the impression that their viewpoints are the norm, because that's what they're often seeing. And people are really spiraling into extremist directions as, as they only see one side of the story, they continually see it, they often see the same fake stories again and again. And those fake stories seem to lend credibility to them. Yeah, but I, I do think that, in order for us to mitigate the damage of the current corruption of the information environment, we need to kill the surveillance capitalism model of social media, and big tech internet companies, which is to say that this idea that they have some kind of free rein to collect whatever data they can on us indefinitely, determine our proclivities, our positions, what we'll respond to, and hold on to those, you know, metrics for the rest of time, or for the rest of your life or whatever. I think that needs to be utterly destroyed. And I don't think we're anywhere close to even having that dialogue right now. But I do think it's vital to humanity at this point that we consider dismantling this system.

Stephen Bradford Long 53:14
You know, a big piece of the puzzle fell into place for me when I talked to Jonathan Roush, about his book, The Constitution of knowledge several weeks ago. And the argument that Jonathan Roush makes is that free speech is really only functional if we have the institutions that are able to maintain it well, right. And so take for example, Twitter, Twitter is not a platform that adheres to what Jonathan Roush calls the constitution of knowledge, which is a set of time tested proven norms and wisdom about how discourse works well, and when those rules or when those norms become violent. And when those institutions start to deteriorate or you know, just just become you know, mutated horrific amalgams like surveillance, capitalism, capitalism and Facebook and Twitter. It's almost like, you know, people being it's almost like driving without traffic lights or something, it breaks down, it falls apart. And so a big piece that's fallen into place for me, is that free speech, free speech, if it is true, if it is authentic, if it is real, it also has to exist within a framework in which it is possible, right? And the institutions have to uphold those norms. Those and you know, he saw It's things like in the academic world peer review, no one has the final word. No one, you know, journalists can't lie, they they can't make stuff up. And this all sounds really intuitive to us now, but it really wasn't. Right. It took years it took decades, it took centuries for journalists to figure out that they shouldn't make shit up. Right. And, and so those those norms are important. And that's what makes free speech flourish. But what Twitter does and Facebook does is it erodes those norms. And I also sometimes wonder if that's why people are so are, are turning their back on the concept of free speech, because it's like the fish doesn't know they're wet. Maybe free speech doesn't seem to be, quote, unquote, working right now, not because the concept of free speech is wrong. But because the water we're living in the water we're swimming in is, is surveillance capitalism, which does not allow for the free exchange of ideas, and the marketplace of ideas to do its work.

Doug Misicko 56:05
Yeah, no, I think it's, it's a, in some respects, a reiteration of what I was saying about the information environment that people are in online, and the degree to which they don't realize that what they're seeing has been manufactured for them to match their interests. And, you know, despite what Google says about trying to mitigate the proliferation of misinformation, I'm infuriated sometimes by what I see in my recommends through YouTube.

Stephen Bradford Long 56:37
No, yeah, same. YouTube apparently thinks that I'm that I really need to watch Ben Shapiro.

Lucien Greaves 56:44
YouTube thinks everybody needs to see Ben Shapiro. Yeah, that's true. So John, my partner's absolutely no reason I should have ever recommended a video from that fuckface I've never watched anything that would suggest that I would have any interest in anything that shithead says, yeah. And yet, you know, you know, I hear people speculate all the time. Well, you know, Facebook has a right wing bias and these other sites or whatever, and I feel like, you know, it's probably, I don't know, it probably just turned out that way from the algorithm or whatever. YouTube's the one where I feel like, Alright, does YouTube really have this right wing bias? Why the fuck is it recommending? So I,

Stephen Bradford Long 57:27
I really wonder that too, because I'm pretty far left. Like, whenever I take the political test thing online, I always come out as like, super ultra progressive, whatever tribe that is where that where it's only like, 11% of the American population, or whatever it is, like, that's always the tribe that I come out as. And despite that, it always thinks that I want to watch Ben Shapiro and even John to date, my partner, John is maybe the most non political, non politically active. No, that's not true that that isn't accurate, but his interests aren't as political as mine, let's say. And he was just like, why the fuck is YouTube recommending Ben Shapiro to me, what is it about? And no, so I seriously do think that that YouTube might have a right wing bias. For whatever reason, I don't know why. Yeah.

Doug Misicko 58:22
No, I see it too. Like I said, like I'm I'm always looking up, you know, outdated materials on YouTube and in low budget movies that are, you know, so abandon that somebody was able to upload them to YouTube or whatever, but but nothing. Nothing would indicate that I would give a shit about Ben Shapiro. It really does seem to be Ben Shapiro, like YouTube must have some kind of vested interest in Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson. That motherfucker.

Stephen Bradford Long 58:54
Yep. Jordan Peterson to. So speaking of free speech, and so I did take some questions from my audience on on my Discord server. By the way, I do not mention my Discord server enough because it is a super cool group of people. So everyone, go to the go to the show notes. And there's a link for discord in the show notes. Go Go check it out. It's a great group of people. Speaking of free speech, dissent offense. One question did come up that I want to ask you about because I feel like it ties in with the conversation that we've had, quote, What does he think about the role of dissent within TST specifically as a subset of its role within the religion? So let's be more specific, let's say someone has listened this far to the podcast. They're a member of tsp and they've really fucking disagreed with you on some things. What would be your response to that?

Doug Misicko 59:46
Well, I mean, we're always open to the dialogue. We have our town halls, we try to keep open communication, you know, but if it comes down to my I disagree with the fourth tenant Like, why don't you just go somewhere else? You know, it's one of our fundamental tenants, you know, if we're, when we're working out the details beyond that, you know, there's always disagreement, and there's always a back and forth. But I feel like free speech is one of those things like we've held on to from the very beginning, and been very clear about as an organization. And to be honest, I haven't heard a coherent argument against it, that leads to a principled stand that could be broadly applied in wouldn't devastate the Satanic Temple itself. If it were instigated, as I said, you know, we have these, you know, Christian groups all the time saying that what we do is hate speech and everything else. And we're hyper vigilant against the prospect of anti blasphemy laws and everything else, you know, so I feel like the people who say, Well, you just have to reconsider the one of your own fundamental tenets, I think, well, maybe maybe you should reconsider having any part of us because that's, that's a lot to ask, you know. But, you know, that said, again, you know, when it's not an issue of trying to change the very tenants upon which this organization is based, and instead, discussing tactics of how we best arrive at the goals, we all share that we want to get to, you know, we always want to leave that discussion wide open.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:01:39
There are people in TST, who really dislike, for example, the way I articulate my own Satanism, and I've heard from them, and I think that's fantastic, because Satanism is inherently individualistic, but like you said, when when it goes to the very heart, of what the organization is, to the tenets, what that kind of reminds me of is when people start to be really uncomfortable with the Satan part. Right, right, right. You know, I've watched this pattern happen over and over again, where someone will enthusiastically join TST to get, you know, some vague notion of religious exemption for, you know, their, you know, some progressive cause that they have, which is a good cause of BIA, bodily autonomy or LGBT rights or what have you, right. And so they, they come to TST. And, but, but they really take the poison pill approach, the idea that Satan is just a poison pill to give the theocrats, a taste of their own medicine or something like that. But then over time, they start to become really uncomfortable with the satanic aspect. And I start to hear things like, well, you know, if only we could maybe, you know, this isn't really about Satan, so maybe we could change that part. And I'm like, No, we're Satanists. To change the satanic part of it would be would mean, we aren't Satanists anymore. No, fuck, you were Satanist. And it's the same with the tenets. So it's like there there are certain levels of discourse that or disagreement that can happen we can disagree about our interpretations of the tenets but or we can disagree about tactics and we can disagree about the sim you know, what the symbol of Satan means in our own lived Satan isms. But when it gets to the heart of what the organization is built on, which is the tenets and Satan is like no that then just go somewhere else.

Doug Misicko 1:03:44
There are some non negotiables here Yeah. And

Stephen Bradford Long 1:03:48
I think that's what frustrates me is when dissent is what what's what's what's put forward as dissent is really just will just change your entire fucking organization or just change your entire religion like Why Why does it have to be about Satan it this isn't really about Satan just, you know, just just be a humanist or whatever. It's, that's what frustrates me. But when dissent comes

Lucien Greaves 1:04:16
out, of course, they could just go and be humanists themselves. Well, you know,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:20
there's, there's nothing wrong with that. Go Go be a humanist or Unitarian Universalist or whatever.

Lucien Greaves 1:04:27
Why Satan, it's like, well, you don't have to do this. No,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:32
absolutely. Yeah. Well, I trying to think if there's anything else on my mind, but I think I think we covered it all. We covered your movie night and satanic planet performance. We talked about Salman Rushdie, I think I think that was all that I had. Is there anything else that you wanted to discuss? No, I

Doug Misicko 1:04:52
think we did it. I think it's a success.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:54
I think it is a success. And dear listeners, I always welcome for feedback and I love hearing back from all of you because this is a conversation and this podcast is just one side of that conversation. So please leave a comment on my website Steven Bradford long.com You can email me using the contact form on my website or you can join in the join in on the conversation on Discord. I would love that too. Well, that is it for this show. The music is by eleventy seven you can find it on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to music This show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long and it is made possible by my patrons@patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long as always Hail Satan. And thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STLaCarmina

2022-10-11T08:06:09Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STLaCarmina
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
satanism, people, satanists, satanic, book, baphomet, religion, satanic temple, satan, satanist, symbols, japan, identify, knights templar, absolutely, world, subculture, tst, buddhism, find
SPEAKERS
La Carmina, Stephen Bradford Long

Stephen Bradford Long 00:13
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long. And as always, I have to thank my patrons. My patrons are my personal lords and saviors, and I truly could not do this show without them. I love doing this podcast, I love bringing these conversations to you for free every single week, I believe that we need free and accessible, interesting conversations on challenging topics. That's what the world needs right now. But in order to do that, I need your help. This is also a full time job. I do all of the editing, all of the booking, all of the writing, and all of the recording, all of that adds up. And in order to make it sustainable, I really need your help. So you can go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long there's also a link in the show notes, all content, all extra content that you get access to on my Patreon gets unlocked at just $1. You know, I want you to still be able to, you know enjoy your life and support me simultaneously so everything gets unlocked at $1 and you get access to my patrons only podcast house of heretics in which Timothy McPherson former Salvation Army officer turned Christian heretic and myself, Minister of Satan in the Satanic Temple talk about religion and philosophy and meditation and news and current events from our slightly differing sometimes discordant perspectives, and it's always a good time. Also, patrons get to join in live on the show in the chat every Wednesday mornings. So if that's interesting to you, please do become a patron and it really helps. All right, for this week, I have to thank Arthur Robert Rory, Chad and cat. Thank you so much. I also don't talk about my Discord server enough on the show, I really need to start shouting out to them at the beginning of each episode, I have this fantastic community on Discord. There are all kinds of interesting people there. And there is a link in the show notes. There's conversation going on every single day. Also. Finally, if you are not subscribed to my weekly newsletter, and blog, go ahead and do that it's super easy. Just enter your email address on my website, Steven Bradford long.com. And you will get regular content every single week I write about everything from Satanism, to faith, to skepticism to philosophy. This week, I wrote a 2000 word article on my choices to not be a father to be child free. So I write about all kinds of interesting stuff. So if you enjoy the podcast, you will most certainly enjoy my newsletter as well. All right. With all of that finally out of the way, I am delighted to welcome La Carmina to the show. How are you?

La Carmina 03:15
I'm doing great ready to head to Japan very soon. So.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:20
Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah. So you're amazing. And I'm so glad that you're taking the time to talk to me, I so appreciate it. Tell us some about who you are and what you do.

La Carmina 03:30
Sure. So I'll tell you some bits and pieces that I don't usually talk about just because of your personal interests and the theme of the podcast. So I'm Canadian. I grew up in Vancouver, and I went to Columbia University in New York for school. And there are some people may not know, but I majored in political theory. And I also have a lot of interest in Asian spirituality and religion. So I took courses on Hinduism, Buddhism, and my thesis was, in fact, about nonviolent movements in India, with Gandhi and in Tibet with the Dalai Lama. So I always had that interest. And that led me to law school at Yale, something that again, people may not know. So I've kind of had all these influences gather together, but at the same time, I identified with alternative subcultures, especially golf. Ever since I was a teen. I was always kind of the misfit, you know, outsider kid into these cultures. So after law school, it just wasn't me to go into a traditional firm environment. I wanted to do something more creative, that still meshed with my interests. And that led me to spend a great deal of time in Japan, and started I started blogging in 2007, which was very early in the days of blogging. So that was really to my advantage because I was one of the OGS and it led to a lot of opportunities being a first and one of the first people on the scene. I mostly wrote about Japanese culture and fashion this way. Actually Gothic, Harajuku and then Satanism because there's a very vibrant Japanese satanic scene. And that just all took off my blog led to what I do today, which is writing books, writing articles for different publications. I did some travel TV shows, and I'm quite involved with other aspects, you know, with Satanism with this book coming out the little book of Satanism.

Stephen Bradford Long 05:22
Wow, that's a lot. You, you, you do a lot. You just mentioned that there is a thriving satanic scene in Japan. Tell me some about that. That sounds fascinating.

La Carmina 05:34
Yeah, it is amazing. They are so welcoming over there. So I spent time investigating and participating in the satanic subculture in Japan, particularly Tokyo and Osaka, around the mid to late 2000s. And it's just incredible you in Osaka, there's a satanic shop territory that, unfortunately is now closed as the owner passed. But if you go in there, you'll just see these incredible relics, Baphomet statues and all these rarities books, antiques, and he does these parties turkeys on he does this incredible party that involves satanic imagery and all these ritualistic elements. His cousin has a satanic Gothic and fetish bar in Kobe as well. And she'll do rituals that are tied in with chivari, the Japanese art of rope tying so it's really visual. And it's earnest. There's a lot of differences, though, from the Western satanic scene just in terms of influences. I mean, that's a whole topic. But it's just really interesting to see how Satanism is expressed by people all around the world since I think Western Satanism tends to take up the conversation.

Stephen Bradford Long 06:46
Definitely. And no, I'm always so fascinated to hear about different manifestations of Satanism that aren't necessarily Western. So every so often something fascinating like that will come across my radar. And I'm just so intrigued by it, what led to your own interest in Satanism. So, of course, you have a new book coming out this October. By the way, we should probably go ahead and say that it is called The Little Book of Satanism. I was reading it today it is fabulous. But before we get to that, what is your own path to Satan? What drew you into Satanism?

La Carmina 07:22
Sure. So as I mentioned, I always was identifying as Gothic. Even as a teenager, I would go to goth clubs. As I got older, I love to participate in the fashion. And the Gothic scene in Japan is also a whole other world. People go all out in the way that they do their makeup and the way they style themselves. It's so creative and expressive and Ernests. So that was in a way a portal to Satanism. When I was living in New York and going to clubs, sometimes you'll meet people who identify as Satanists, generally they would be the church of Satan lavande Satanists back in the day. And then when set when I was in Japan, meeting all these people who participated in the Japanese satanic subculture, that's when I really became interested in whether these values Why is Satan important to them as a metaphor? In Japan, it really is important because in the society that's quite conformist and collectivist identifying as a rebel, the outsider that stands up against arbitrary authority really resonates with the satanists in Japan. And that ties in Yeah, with the Satanic Temple as it came. It's like we started my friends and I started seeing news articles about them around 2013 2014. And the more we saw their evolution, the more we were also intrigued. So I got to get to know the Satanic Temple and I now do a show on TST TV with my co host, Dr. John Scotland, who also spent a decade in Japan and investigates the satanic scene for his for his PhD and for his research,

Stephen Bradford Long 08:53
you keep using one specific word that I want to pause on and that word is earnest, that the the expression of Goth in Japan is very earnest and that the Satanism that you came across in Japan is very earnest why that word? Why is that so important to you? Well, I

La Carmina 09:11
think because sometimes people miss characterize goth or satanic affiliation in Japan, especially as simply some form of cosplay, as if it's just window dressing. It's all visual, and there's nothing beneath it. And I think sometimes, because it seems to me having participated in both Western and Japanese subcultures, people in the West are often quite fixated on labels on a certain identity and kind of, ironically within an alternative subculture conforming to that, but it's a lot more free flowing in Japan. Sometimes people Yeah, they don't necessarily identify with even one religion or any religion that all a lot of people for instance, have. Shinto and Buddhism be part of their cultural background, even though they may not identify as religious or as part of either religion, but it may maybe part of their cultural practices just to go to a temple, or to, you know, get new year's blessings. So I just use that word because I think sometimes people write off a lot of what they see as Gothic expression thinking, Oh, they're not real goth. They're not into the music or whatever it is that they tried to gatekeeper. Or at least from what I see among a lot of people in the West when it comes to goth subculture or Satanism. And so I just wanted to emphasize that, you know, even if I just think people in Japan, they really are sincere in their religious identification as Satanists.

Stephen Bradford Long 10:37
You Yeah. You know, I was just talking to a guy named Levi Walbert several weeks ago on the show, and he is a Buddhist, actually from a from a Japanese tradition of Buddhism. He's a, he's an ordained minister, in some Buddhist tradition, I would get it very wrong if I tried to say which one it was, so I won't. But he did a study of Satanism from the perspective of a Buddhist and he wrote his his like doctoral thesis, or master's thesis, or whatever it was on the philosophy and theology of Satanism, specifically, the Satanic Temple. And one of the things that was most interesting about it is how he pointed out specific things within Satanism that might, on their surface, just look kind of banal and primarily aesthetic, and just for the sake of shock, or camp or what have you, but that they're actually vehicles of earnest religious transcendence. So like, the, like, the dark imagery like that, that isn't just that isn't just about aesthetics, although the aesthetics are fucking amazing. And, you know, we love it for a reason. But it isn't, it isn't just that it is also, you know, it holds really deep meaning for us. And it is a form of religious transcendence. It's a way for us to connect with these values that we hold as Satanists. And that's one of the thing that I so appreciated about that conversation is how he was able to kind of point out these specific things and Satanism that most I think most people on the outside would look at and be like, Oh, they're just being edgy, or oh, they're just being ironic, or what have you. And no, in fact, they're actually very sincere, it they're very sincere expressions of deeply held convictions and attitudes. And that's what I'm hearing you say, as well, that that a lot of stuff that from the outside might look arbitrary. People might describe it as cringe or, or reactionary, or what have you. It is actually really rich with meaning for us.

La Carmina 12:48
Yeah, I think you nailed it, I'd be fascinated to read that and learn more about his work. Because I also write a lot about Buddhism, I do see a lot of flow in between Satanism and Buddhist values, especially if you're talking about what people call secular Buddhism.

Stephen Bradford Long 13:06
So you have this fantastic book. It's called The Little Book of Satanism. And it is indeed very little, it's like the the perfect introduction to Satanism. Like someone, someone could read it in the afternoon. And when your publicist reached out to me and was like, hey, you know, we're luck, Carmina is publishing this book. And you know, it'll be for a popular audience. And I was just like, over the fucking moon. Because Satanism absolutely needs something like this, something accessible, something simple that isn't, you know, that is a bit updated from the Satanic Bible, and will lay out the history and philosophy and so on. So it's fantastic. What was your goal in writing this book? Like, what did you want to accomplish?

La Carmina 13:51
Yeah, so I think you've really hit the nail on the head and terms of, it's a little book, and that was part of the greatest challenge to keep it to about, I think it was 20,000 words, which is difficult when there's so much to distill. There's so much more that could be said about every single topic in there. But as you mentioned, it isn't a book for Satanists. It's really a for the general audience, as if they were interested in learning more about Taoism or Jainism. I think I hope the book helps people have a better sense of the development of the history and culture of Satanism and dispel misunderstandings that are ongoing with the Satanic Panic. There's so much judgment and fear mongering and conspiracy theories still about Satanists? And I think one of the best ways to combat that is through information through helping people understand where Satanism really does come from, and hopefully, hopefully, if they take an open mind and give it a read, they can get a better understanding of the roots of values that Satanists tend to share. And maybe come to a The change their minds and instead of having a negative knee jerk reaction to the word Satanist, maybe it helps them to take a different perspective.

Stephen Bradford Long 15:08
Yeah, what are the specific misconceptions that you find yourself pushing against? Hmm.

La Carmina 15:15
Well, that is addressed a bit in the foreword, which is by wishing, greets.

Stephen Bradford Long 15:21
That's the one part that I didn't read, by the way. I've just, I just had Lucien on last week. And so I'm like, Oh, Jesus Christ, this fucking guy again. Which is great. He's, he's wonderful. I love Lucian. And he's a brilliant writer to like more people need to read his stuff. He's, he's just such a fantastic writer.

La Carmina 15:41
Yeah, I'm really happy with how the foreword came out. And I think it really encapsulated it well, because in popular media, you get a lot of portrayals of Satanists as these evil devil worshipers that are Hexing, the public, and that's not really the main issue, and that he addresses that in this forward, I don't think the average person thinks that Satanists are literally lurking in the shadows ready to poison you in your children and sacrifice babies or whatever all those stereotypes are. And I'm sure there's some people out there that really do believe that. But perhaps the more pervasive problem, it's when you just pick up these cues, this negative bias towards Satanists, or even just not taking them seriously as a people a part of a religion. And you see these biases come out with, for instance, in the satanic temples actions when they tried to do the indemnification, right. And before a council meeting, any religion should be allowed to do so. But they're always denied. So little things like that little denials of little signs that just they're not taken seriously, as religion, I think it's far more pervasive. And once we go through the history, which I cover in the book, you really see where it comes from, such as the link between Satanists and Freemasons, like this is big Freemason conspiracy. And one part of my book talks about how that really originated with the taxall hoax back in France centuries ago. hoax that went out of hand, I guess, you know about?

Stephen Bradford Long 17:09
Absolutely. Yeah. And so, you know, and I'm curious if you get this misconception all the time, too. I very rarely, like you said, there are very few people I think, who really believe like the crazy 80s and 90s, Satanic Panic stuff of you know, there's this enormous Cabal, I mean, those unfortunately, that has not died. Q anon is the modern manifestation of the Satanic Panic. But I think, in my personal interactions, the misconception that I pushed up against all the time is you're not a real religion, or you're, or you're a troll, or you're doing this ironically, in some way. And then when I tried to push back and say, Well, no, you know, this is this is a very authentic religious experience for me, you know, I've written about my conversion to Satanism, from Christianity. There's, I'm, I'm very serious about it. There's nothing ironic about it. And then they always get like this, you know, if they're the like, online atheist type, they always get this knowing look in their eyes. And they're like, Yeah, but that's what you're supposed to say. Because it's a troll. Just like you. But do you ever get that to like this? This is not sincere. This is this is just a troll. This is a poison pill. Oh, I

La Carmina 18:29
think everyone in satanic circles gets that. And you also get that from other people that are saying this, but they identify as card carrying members of maybe the Church of Satan, and then they are not as Satanists. We are. You see a lot of stuff on Twitter. Yep. But I would say, you know, I should also reiterate that this book, I'm, it's not a personal journey. It's not a personal book, it's, I kind of think it is more effective by taking a nonfiction historical, cultural, almost a detached approach. I'm not encouraging or pushing satanic values at all in the book. It's as if I'm covering any religion out there. I'm just trying to fairly present here. This is where it came from. These are symbols and practices that Satan has tend to, like how they tend to express their religious identification and find meaning as a Satanist. Keeping it again, more general, I said in the introduction, I'm not trying to define a one to Satanism. I acknowledge there are a minority of theistic Satanists. Some people they identify with the Church of Satan. There's a whole section about Anton LaVey and his importance modern Satanism, there's a section about the Satanic Temple. And of course, there are people that don't identify with either their individual they have their maybe their independent groups or they're just individually practicing Satanists. So this is kind of acknowledging all of the above and, again, not even pressing or advocating for anyone to be a Satanist or even agree with Satanism, it's more, hey, let's take a look at where it comes from. And you can come to your own conclusions. And I think that is better rather than someone just going by what they see in the media or just not thinking too critically about it. Because I sometimes think we just get these influences from growing up from pop culture, from TV from what people say about other people. And that soaks in whether we acknowledge it or not.

Stephen Bradford Long 20:25
Yeah, so it's, it's almost like you're just examining, you know, taking a neutral posture and just examining like, well, by and large, this is what Satanism has been through the years through the centuries. And you know, here it is, in 20,000 words and take it or leave it. And I think that's a really, really important approach. So you mentioned the taxall hoax. So just to give people an idea of the some of the fascinating historical moments that you cover, in the book, tell people what happened during the taxall hoax because so many people don't know that this insane thing happened,

La Carmina 21:06
right? So around the 1890s, there was a man who took on the name of Leo Teksu, if we want to be French about it, and he had a beef against the Catholic Church. And it's kind of funny, in a way he was being a troll. He wanted to troll the Catholic Church. So he started publishing books as a cat Fisher with today, under a different name, different faiths, different identity. And the books that he published the push the idea of pellet ism, a secretive satanic cabal operating within Freemasonry.

Stephen Bradford Long 21:38
Say the name of the group again...

La Carmina 21:41
Sure, Palladism or Palladis.

Stephen Bradford Long 21:44
Palladism, or palladis. Yes, got it.

La Carmina 21:46
Yeah. And already, the Catholics were, well, they, they had aside towards any other denomination, or any other religion, but particularly the Freemasons, because of their kind of, you know, bizarre seeming practices and rituals and their lodges and whatnot. So it was easy enough to drum up some fears among the general public, particularly Catholics that Oh, no, there's this world, a political conspiracy of Satanists plotting to do horrible things within Freemasonry. And so he published different books that spread this idea from different perspectives, creating all this cast of characters really just like the cat Fisher in modern day, and it succeeded. People bought his books, they really ate up his ideas. He had a big poster that had a Baphomet on it, so that again, kind of linked to anti Freemasonry to Baphomet to Satanism. And then, this went on for about 10 years, until one day, he just couldn't hold the threads together. He had a big presentation where he announced, guess what, everyone, I've been pulling your leg the whole time, the whole thing was a hoax. And he got chased off the stage, but he succeeded in making the Catholic Church look a bit ridiculous and making some money out of it. So that's the story.

Stephen Bradford Long 23:04
And it's, it's insane how far it went, and the number of incredibly powerful people who bought it. Like it is absolutely nuts. And, you know, I think that it it exemplifies this really challenging part of Satanism. So I think Satanism is what would be called an invented religion, which is where it's like, okay, we know we're making this up. And yet, that doesn't make it any less earnest for us. And I think a lot of people who are maybe coming from more of a religious perspective, really struggle with that. And one of the challenging things I think about Satanism is how it has these really influential moments like the taxall hoax where it was basically an enormous hoax that ended up having huge cultural influence, and and really shaped the discourse around Satanism and we are now modern Satanist, you know, kind of inheriting the legacy of the taxall hoax and also talk about the knot. I was going to say, the Shriners and I'm like, No way. That's the wrong one. The Shriners or the are the modern day ones with the silly hats. The the ones who who allegedly worshipped Baphomet Oh, the Knights Templar the Knights Templar. Right. So yeah, the Knights Templar are also a fascinating piece of satanic history. Tell our audience about that. What what went on there?

La Carmina 24:31
Yeah, sure, I think throw the to one part of my book is historical Satanism, and it goes through what I call the devils foot print from medieval times, like the Knights Templar incident that I'll talk about, through the witch hunts, to, you know, the height of exorcisms and to incidents like the affair of the poisons and the tactile hooks. And I think in writing this for myself, I really got to see how that's the same story over and over with tactile hooks. Great. These misunderstandings get The pan and create this negative, these negative stories, these narratives about Satanists, but you see that also with the witch hunts towards women that were outsiders. And you see that with the Satanic Panic towards these metalhead types that were deemed devil worshipers and even some of them were jailed. And for without any recourse,

Stephen Bradford Long 25:21
I think that that's worth pausing on, because there is so so you mentioned several key historical moments. One was the Satanic Panic of the 80s and 90s. There was the taxall hoax there was the affair of the poisons, which maybe we can get to later. And then there is the the Goddamnit i can't i cannot retain their name. The the ones who worshipped who allegedly worshipped Baphomet Knights Templar. So the scholar of Satanism, Ruben van lac, in his book, children of Lucifer talks about the process of identification, attribution versus identification. So it's almost like an all of these cases that you just described, they are situations where, where Satanism is assigned, where the identity of being a devil or a Satan is assigned to some outsider. So yeah, through kind of satanic pre history, Satanism is a weapon. And it is assigned to outsiders as a way of controlling them, killing them, denigrating them, etc. And this was done towards Jews. This was done towards, you know, various religious seconds.

La Carmina 26:40
Yeah, women. Exactly. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 26:44
yeah, all of the above. And then this really bizarre thing happens and kind of the 19th and 20th centuries, where that starts to shift to identification, where there's this this transfer, from attribution to identification, where people start to take on the label of satanist as a form of empowerment. And so when people ask, Well, where did Satanism come from? I say, well, it was invented by the Catholic Church. It was like, technically, and Joseph Laycock, who's a religious scholar, and he wrote the book Speak of the devil, which is about tst. He, he said, at one point, he was like, Yeah, you know, I'm a Catholic. It's like checking in on my kids. You know, working with TST it's like checking in on how my kids are doing. But yeah, there's this there's this, there's this process of going from a from attribution to identification from the term being an insult a weapon to people being like, okay, these are actually this name actually represents affirmative values that I support. Therefore, I am now a Satanist.

La Carmina 27:58
Yeah, and I know a lot of the scholarly books like the one you mentioned, children of Lucifer, which I cite, it's a fantastic book. Yeah. But they're not easily accessible. And they're very thick and dense. And there's a lot in there. So I'm hoping that my book still accurately but more succinctly and in a more conversational manner, is able to convey exactly the ideas that you presented. And I think people can see that going through the history, it goes through the romantic Satanists ready to suddenly treating Satan is this metaphor of the hero, the antihero, and it talks about satanic precursors. Crowley has a great quote about how the devil is the god of any one that one personally dislikes, which kind of sums it all up.

Stephen Bradford Long 28:43
Yeah, that's amazing. And All right, so we were going to talk about the Knights Templar Oh, before we do that, I just want to say, I totally agree with you. That's one of the things that I was thinking, actually, as I was reading your book, like, oh, this thank God hippin thank Satan. This is so much more accessible than, you know, the gargantuan tomes about Satanism, like children of Lucifer, which are great books, but it literally took me like three months to get through that fucking book. So yeah, you accomplished that by making it very, very accessible. So the symbol of the Baphomet, allegedly, and so people will know the symbol of the Baphomet. It is the goat head or the sabbatic goat with one hand pointing up one hand pointing down, angel wings, et cetera, et cetera, right, that allegedly is traced all the way back to the Knights Templar. talk some about that? Part of satanic prehistory.

La Carmina 29:42
Yeah, absolutely. So that happened during the Middle Ages during the times of the Crusades. It's just so fascinating to see how it all links together because Baphomet is so present and important in modern Satanism, but really, it led it has its roots to the Crusades, the Knights Templar Were a special order that were set to defend the holy lands from the Muslims. And they were became very powerful and rich and successful in doing that. But then as time passed, the Crusades started to dwindle, and the Muslims were gaining ground and the Christians were falling back. But at the same time the Knights Templar regained they still were very powerful. So money talks, right money and power talks. And that's why the French King Philip the fair of all names, thought, Okay, it's time to crack down I want to take the Knights Templars lend their money and get my get power back into my hands. That's why they they went out against the Knights Templar and accused them of all these horrific crimes like sodomy, and cavorting with Lucifer in the shape of a black cat, and

Stephen Bradford Long 30:54
all things, all things that I am guilty of, I have lots of gay sex. I definitely cavort with Satan and I have a black cat. So I am guilty on every single cat.

La Carmina 31:09
Yeah, so maybe true. In your case, man. There's no corroborating evidence whatsoever of these practices. It was just to subdue a group. It was political, right? It's to put down that suddenly, they they don't like the thing. Like Crowley said, the devil is the god of anyone, one personally dislikes. And that's a really powerful way to say these people need to be put to death. They were brought to trial. False trials, of course. And within that there's testimony of the Knights Templar, worshipping an icon name, mathematics, something like that. I think it was a mystery. Well, they said Baphomet, but it was a mispronunciation perhaps, of Muhammad, which is French for Mohammed. So again, of course, the whole anti Satan, this idea, you know, deeming anyone, and then other group to be of the devil's party, Muslims would be included in that. And so for the Knights Templar to be involved in worshipping some sort of Muslim Idoma, who met Mohammed Baphomet, a two or three headed goat head figure, and that became associated with the terrible satanic crimes. But then, as you mentioned, people kind of took back that symbology today, Satanists today have Baphomet as a symbol of the Union of opposites, something to strive for, right?

Stephen Bradford Long 32:30
Yeah, absolutely. And there's also a similar thread in the affair of the poisons, and we won't we don't have to rehash like all of these very complex historical moments. But briefly, the affair of the poisons was just this horrific affair where I forget what it was in the 1700s.

La Carmina 32:49
I think, yeah, between 1677 So 17th century we we 14 got

Stephen Bradford Long 32:55
it got it. Basically, it was my understanding is that it's when the Catholic Church and then the kind of church slash state union between between, you know, the king and the Catholic Church, or what have you started to really crack down on the occult underground in Paris, and it was just kind of a network of of midwives and potions, sellers and whatnot folk magic, right? And they horrifically tortured a lot of these people and under conditions of just unimaginable torture, they extracted confessions of the black mass, which was this inverted, blasphemous, you know, inverted, blasphemous version of the Catholic mass. And, you know, it's just a horrific story. And so why then, is it important to Satanists to practice the black mass? Well, the reason is because the black mass is literally a legacy of theocratic torture and abuse. It is a remnant it is an artifact, it was invented by the theocrats and, you know, who knows, maybe there was some measure of satanic underground activity. We don't know we will never know. But I think it's more likely that the Catholic Church forced to these confessions and created this fantasy. And so the black mass is literally this symbol of horrific theocratic oppression and embracing the black mass can become like this cathartic statement of independence and remembrance of all of those who have been tortured and abused by theocratic power. And there's there's the similar theme with the Knights Templar where they were tortured and you know, the confessions of the Baphomet were extracted, you know of worshipping the three headed Baphomet and so a lot of these core symbols and rituals within Satanism Sorry, I'm I'm going on and on and on. This is all stuff. This is all stuff that I'm that I absolutely love. But a lot of these core symbols are actually artifacts of torture from the Catholic world. And by reclaiming those things, it's almost like that, in and of itself is an act of defiance. And, and self actualization.

La Carmina 35:27
Yeah. And you know, you've mentioned the affair of the poisons, which I cover, if you look at it from one perspective, you mentioned this underworld of sort of love potions, sellers, people who were kind of soothsayers in the occult underworld, they tend to be women, and they were midwives and people giving abortions, which were illegal and now are illegal still. But back then, you know, these women did them secretly. And also, some of these people were LGBTQ. So that's why they were kind of relegated to this world where they could be themselves and find that some sort of, you know, women were made pregnant against their will, they would come to them to get help. And so it's interesting, again, these threads throughout history, it's people on the margins that are most likely accused of being Satanists and put through all this torture, because they don't jive with the, with what authority wants great with theocratic values, and so they're put to death because of it. And we're still fighting that today.

Stephen Bradford Long 36:26
Yeah. And I mean, all of this just goes back to like this. This isn't mere edge Lord stuff. So you know, I love my edge lords. They're, they're fantastic. You know, I'm not, I'm not deriving the edge Lords at all. But it isn't merely that there is, there is real depth and historical meaning in here and in a lot of these symbols. And, you know, my hope is that when people read your book, they will be able to at least see the historical underpinnings for why we do what we do. Talk to them about your own satanic practice. You might I don't, I might have not gotten this far enough. In the book, you you. You might not cover this. But would you be comfortable just talking about what does your own personal Satanism look like?

La Carmina 37:15
Yes. So I don't cover any of this in the book, because I keep it objective, I keep it impersonal. And I don't really speak too much about it usually to mean it's funny, because I grew up in a different context. I, my parents are from Hong Kong, and so they are staunch atheists. So I grew up with a very staunch atheist background, quite different from a lot of people that are drawn to Satanism that come from often quite conservative, strict Christian backgrounds. So yeah, I grew up in an environment where religion is not like it was ridiculed, but no one really saw the point.

Stephen Bradford Long 37:49
So let's, let's pause on that. So why? I mean, I have my own reasons for why but why are you drawn to a religion? Because I, you know, so often I come across and, you know, various atheists like the atheists that you just described, where it's like, you know, they're, maybe they aren't necessarily against religion, they just don't see the point. Like, it's almost like walking backwards, like, Okay, well, why would you want to go backwards into religious sectarianism or whatever? So So what draws you to religion? Why does religion have meaning for you?

La Carmina 38:25
Yeah. And that's really tied into even my university days, taking classes in a lot of the more East Asian spirituality, I think, because a lot of the New Atheists talk about this too. Even if you're an atheist, you can still seek ways of to live a better life, to consider questions of what is well being, what's the best way to exist in this world, how you want to be a part of the world. And sometimes these questions are more spiritual ones, if you want to define them in that way. And so a lot of people, they might turn to mindfulness or meditation, things that are connected to Buddhism, but without any element of supernatural or belief systems, they don't even have to identify as Buddhist to find value, and to actually find in their daily lives as I do a lot of benefit in learning about these techniques and learning about the Buddhist worldview and meditation. And so same goes with Satanism. I think I'm kind of, I follow the Japanese, or more Asian version of things where it's a lot more free flowing. I don't identify. I don't attach myself to particular labels. But I'm very interested. And I think there's a lot to be found in terms of personal meaning, community, ways of thinking about the world in Satanism, as there is in Buddhism and some other religions. I love

Stephen Bradford Long 39:51
that Yeah. And you know, that that kind of free flowing approach, it's so refreshing and honestly you know, in my journeys in Satanism and in the Satanic Temple in particular, I just keep coming across people who, for lack of a better term have dual religious identities, you know, and so I've I've come across people who are Quakers and consider themselves still very Quaker Quaker is is an important part of their religious life. And they're also fully dedicated Satanists, and that for them is not a conflict for them. I have a lot of friends who are Jewish, and who are who still observe all the festivals, they go to synagogue, they do all of the things. And they are very dedicated Satanists. And so just, I think that Satanism actually kind of lends itself to kind of a syncretistic approach to religion, you know, it's like, you can have so many dual identities, multiple identities, you can flow between them, you know, and I think that's so refreshing.

La Carmina 40:54
Yeah, I think especially with Satanism, and the emphasis and rebellion, questioning, and an individualistic practice. So there's a lot of room for your own take on things if you know what I mean. And yet syncretism really lends itself well. You see that with, with Buddhism with Satanism, and like you, I know a lot of people that really are identified with all sorts of religions and practices without holding on too tightly. That's quite a nice Buddhist way to approach it. Right? don't grasp too tightly to any labels to anything at all.

Stephen Bradford Long 41:26
Absolutely. You know, one of the things that I love is getting popularized is though, is talking about my Satanism or or personal Satanism is, it's like, I can't, I can't say what Satanism is, I can only say what my Satanism is, I have my own Satan, I have my, I have my own vision of who Satan is, and what that symbol means. For me, there's obviously going to be a lot of overlap with other Satanists and TST you know, we all have this shared guiding values of the satanic tenets. But at the end of the day, we're we're all operating off of this individual vision of who Satan is for each one of us and then we build that and then we have a you know, different metaphysics for each one of us. And so, you know, my my friend, Panama, he's really big. He's really big into transhumanism, you know, and so for him Satanism is ver Transhumanism is a very profound expression of his Satanism, right? And for others is going to be veganism. For others, it's going to be mindfulness meditation, you know, and, and I, what I find so refreshing, honestly, about that is that that's true of all religions. Every every religion, every practitioner of every religion is ultimately following some individual, personally curated version of of who they think that God is of who they think Jesus is, right? You know, at the end of the day, everyone is doing that. We are just honest about it. Right.

La Carmina 42:58
And we don't impose it on others.

Stephen Bradford Long 43:00
Exactly. We don't. We don't have to live with that cognitive dissonance of habit of trying to like, like, force other people into our vision of what Satanists or or you know, what have you.

La Carmina 43:14
Yeah, of course oneself to be living. Oh, I'm not living a sin free enough life.

Stephen Bradford Long 43:18
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So at the beginning of the show, you mentioned some similarities that you see between Buddhism and Satanism. I find that topic fascinating. And I know that you don't cover this in your book, or maybe maybe you do later. But what are some of those similarities but that you see between Satanism and Buddhism? Hmm.

La Carmina 43:37
Well, first, I should say, I'm speaking more about what they call secular Buddhism. So if Yeah, without any spiritual, any supernatural or requirements of beliefs and any things that you can't, that can't be confirmed through science? So a lot of the noble truths, they're just truth about the world, right? That it's suffering and ways to their ways to not suffer so much in daily life, especially just by not clinging and accepting, you know, equanimity in the moment. So I just love the approach that you don't have to be beholden to what's imposed on you. You can reframe the world and you're the narrative, you don't have to live the story that people tell you, you have to live. And I see that similarity with Satanism, perhaps even more so because there's still this edge, Lord, as you put it, connotation there, it's still a big deal to identify as a Satanist, you get a lot of negative feedback and, you know, even downsides. I heard recently of some employers being upset at someone identifying as a Satanists. So it really takes a lot to stand up against that and say, I'm not going to accept what's imposed upon me. I'm going to think critically, I'm going to make decisions based on a compassion. That's a big thing in both Buddhism and, and in at least a second. isn't about the Satanic Temple.

Stephen Bradford Long 45:01
There's definitely a lot of similarity between the seven tenets and the Four Noble Truths. Like I see a lot of the the seven tenets of the Satanic Temple and the Four Noble Truths. And they they both kind of draw one towards accepting reality as it is, in a way, you know, for example, the fifth tenet is you no one should oh, god dammit, this is me failing satanic confirmation class. It was. So I was in a conversation with a Christian seminarian A while ago, and he was like, So what are the tenants? And I tried to tell him and I could not remember. And he was like, yeah, man, you're failing St. St. Satanic confirmation class right now. You know, belief should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world, one should never distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs. You know, there's something, I think that there is something very similar to mindfulness about that, you know, a lot of adhering to that tenant requires being comfortable with a lot of mystery, a lot of disconfirming evidence, a lot of stuff that we'd probably not like to be true, you know, life at at the atomic level is just not very gratifying. And at the cosmic level, it's absolutely huge and terrifying and overwhelming. And it takes a certain measure of mindfulness to just accept that and yes,

La Carmina 46:33
critical thinking, Yes. As objectivity. Yeah, putting aside emotional bias, and it's hard, like you said, and it's not fun, it's a lot more fun to play into this fantasy or this label that you feel oh, you know, this is me out in the world, or this is how it should be. And everything should conform to that, when that's not the case.

Stephen Bradford Long 46:52
Absolutely. So another thread that you that you hit on in the book is feminism, and the role that that Satan plays in women's empowerment. And that also includes, you know, of course, trans women. And so all women, but let's talk specifically about feminism, and maybe the role of Lilith. So do you find personal empowerment in the image of Satan in the symbol of Satan, as a woman? And what is that, like?

La Carmina 47:23
I think, because my background is so atheists and because I didn't grow up in a very religious environment. I'm from Vancouver, Canada. So being outside of the US, you get, you don't have as much theocracy in government, and just in your day to day life. So when I talk to my friends who grew up in a very strict Christian background, they seem to have a lot more resonance, with symbols like Satan, and Lilith, or even the inverted cross, just because that was the narrative imposed on them from such a young age. And these symbols were told to have spiritual I mean, essential meeting, right, the most important meaning that one could have. And that's not something I grew up with. So I would say that while I find these symbols, and figures, inspirational and powerful, I don't think I resonate with them as much as someone who grew up, you know, believing in the literal God and, and whatnot, and then later questioning that, and then perhaps finding a different relationship to the idea of the devil, because of that rejection.

Stephen Bradford Long 48:31
Yeah, no, that makes complete sense. And, you know, it's so interesting how I encounter a lot of Satanists, or the satanic adjacent, you know, people who might not necessarily identify themselves as Satanists, but you know, are in one room over, like, in the hallway, in the hallway outside of Satanism, or what, or what have you, you know, allies of, of Satanism or satanic adjacent, and a lot of people are, do not come from a religious background and talk about and when you when I talk to them about this, they don't relate to symbols, like, for example, the inverted cross, because to them, there is no, there is no personal significance in inverting it. There is no personal significance in inverting that religious symbol because that religious symbol was never used to abuse them. And so they're drawn to other parts of Satanism, maybe like Lucifer, the Morningstar, who is a symbol of, you know, beauty and enlightened. And so maybe they're drawn more to that or they are drawn more towards kind of affirmative values that are not necessarily in there can be affirmative values that are in opposition to religion, of course, absolutely. But I think a lot of them are drawn to affirmative values that aren't necessarily in opposition to religion at all. They they draw their wrong to religion to Satanism as basically like its own thing and didn't enter it from, you know, the the door of Christianity or Judaism or what have you. And I find I find that so interesting. Yeah, I

La Carmina 50:15
was, I thought you just made me remember that. I once watched the hail satan documentary about the Satanic Temple with some high school friends that do not identify as goth. They're really not very alternative subculture people by any definition. And they thought that the documentary was fantastic. They really liked the satanic temples works, the tenants, but I remember they said to me, well, in the scenes where you see a congregation, everyone kind of has gos pierced his body modifications are really looks alternative maybe whereas pentagrams and they said, Well, I really like what they're doing. But I just don't feel that's me and I don't feel I would really belong in that. But for me, I've been wearing Gothic fashion. I've been involved in Gothic clubs music subculture for so long. So in that sense, the aesthetics they do appeal to me they very much feel like you can I mean, I always post pictures of my outfits on Instagram and on my locker Mina blog, and I've long been dressing up in very dark ways incorporating satanic symbols. So in that sense, it has personal meaning to me and resonance in a way that perhaps a more adjacent person outside the room might not.

Stephen Bradford Long 51:24
Yeah, also you your Instagram, you look just absolutely fucking amazing. Like your makeup is incredible. The clothing is amazing. And I really need to like ask you off off air like I need you to to consult for like makeup and fashion. You should start like an academy. It could be like LA Carmina is Academy for drab satanic gays. Because I'm a very drag. I'm a very dour satanic gay I cannot dress myself I look like a homeless person. And so but ya know, you're the artistry that you display with clothing and with makeup is just absolutely fucking amazing.

La Carmina 52:06
Yeah, that's something that I've always loved. I feel like the more you talk about your roots, I think it's something that's always been there. So even I loved Halloween as a kid. I loved being able to wear these flamboyant outfits and do crazy face paint and makeup. And that just continued in through as I was growing up, right? I was more comfortable with alternative brightly colored hairstyles and makeup and outfits that might turn a head, but that's just who I am.

Stephen Bradford Long 52:33
Yeah, I love that. And I am what what I like to call a Normie satanist I go stealth. You know, no one would look at me and be like, Oh, he's a Satanist. And then you get to know me. And it's like, oh, yeah, no, he's, he's a covert Satanist. He's a he's a minister of Satan in the Satanic Temple. But you look at him, and he's just wearing like, a cat t shirt and jeans. And honestly, you know, I think that that's one of the things that I love about TST is it can draw people, all different types of people with all different sorts of aesthetics. Because it's a religion, religions will draw many different types of people. And that's great. And so there will be people. You know, a while ago, I interviewed James Paine Minister James Payne, who's the head of the uniformed coalition in TST, which is the campaign for the military police officers and nurses, and he is a complete Normie. He, you would never look at, or listen to him talk and be like, Yup, there's the Satanist. And then I love that, you know, right next to James Paine could be, you know, some, you know, super goth, badass dominatrix. And I just think that's a beautiful thing.

La Carmina 53:48
It is. And, you know, I think often people who are more active on social media, post photos and whatnot, they, the focus tends to be on them. But I always like to remind everyone that social media is not real life turning that talking about narratives, and what's real, right. I think sometimes the same people, the same supporters and detractors show up again and again, especially on Twitter. Yeah. But in fact, there are 1000s upon 1000s of people out there that support who had their own Satanism, or in this case, support the Satanic Temple that you've never heard of. I mean, people don't know any of the satanists that I know in Japan, right, just because of the language barrier. And because they're in a different country, and they've never met them. But they're, they're doing their thing. And yeah, I think, for me, having gone to law school, there's a lot of people that were interested in the Satanic Temple because of their legal campaigns. And they came to it because of that.

Stephen Bradford Long 54:39
Absolutely. Yeah. It's super interesting. Well, we're at the hour, but is there anything else that you wanted to mention anything else that you wanted us to talk about before we wrap up?

La Carmina 54:51
I think we covered so much. I'm just excited to continue to do more in the world of Satanism. There's a book coming out, I do the show on TSD A TV called satanic show until we invite guests notable guests to show their morbid and bizarre possessions that are related to the devil. So that's been a lot of fun. For me, I'm always writing Yeah, I'm always writing about Satanism and sharing as much as I can, especially from around the world. And I will be doing that when I'm in Japan. Very soon. I'll be reporting about all the hellish going on in the lab. Yeah, in Japan.

Stephen Bradford Long 55:27
That sounds amazing. And for people who want to find that, do you have like a website that where they can access all of this amazing information?

La Carmina 55:36
Yes. So people can Google lock Pertamina, and you'll find everything. But I've been running my site since 2007. It's like carmena.com. There's a treasure trove of posts from Gosh, you should see the fashion my friends and I wore in Japan back in 2007 2008. It's like a time capsule. It's really fun, because I will.

Stephen Bradford Long 55:56
After this, I will go and look that up. I'll go deep into your archives. Yeah, so

La Carmina 56:04
trouble point and shoot cameras, but you capture things that you don't know become important. Later. I was just talking about my friends and the things we did and parties we went to and we didn't know we were capturing the evolutions of Japanese Satanism in figures that are now gone.

Stephen Bradford Long 56:18
Yeah, that that's so fascinating. Yeah. So everyone can go find that at law Carmina and when does your book drop?

La Carmina 56:23
The Little Book of Satanism comes out October 25. So right before Halloween, but people can preorder it now. It's in paperback and digital. And you can find info on my site lock carmina.com or just google the little book of Satanism.

Stephen Bradford Long 56:37
Beautiful. Yeah. And everyone really should go buy it and buy multiple copies so you can give it to your friends. Like if anyone asks, no longer do you have to rely on URLs? No longer do you have to rely on random blog posts to you know, send your friends when they ask you questions about Satanism. Now you can just hand them the little book of Satanism. All right. Well, you're you're always welcome back. This has been a fantastic conversation. I'd love to do this again. Matthew, thank

La Carmina 57:07
you so much.

Stephen Bradford Long 57:08
Absolutely. All right. Well, that is it for this show. The theme song is called Wild by eleventy seven you can find it on iTunes Spotify. No, iTunes doesn't exist anymore. You can find it on Apple Music Spotify, or wherever you listen to music This show is written produced and edited by me and it is supported by my patrons@patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long as always Hail Satan. And thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STKeithFrankishFINAL

2022-10-11T08:06:09Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STKeithFrankishFINAL
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
consciousness, world, brain, people, processes, satanism, reactions, extra, sense, outsider, complex, view, satanists, feel, state, disgust, experience, reacting, podcast, happening
SPEAKERS
Stephen Bradford Long, Keith Frankish

00:00
You're listening to a rock candy podcast. I am Avery Smith. And I'm here to invite you to bless it are the binary breakers and multifaith podcast of transgender stories. Whatever your own relationship to gender and spirituality may be, you will find yourself enriched or the stories shared by my guests who so far have ranged in religion from Christian and pagan to Jewish, Sikh, atheist and beyond, and have hailed from the US, Chile, Poland, Australia and more tune in wherever you get your podcasts or read along with episode transcripts by visiting blessing are the binary breakers.com See you there?

Stephen Bradford Long 01:03
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com All right. Well, as always, before we get started, I have to thank my patrons. My patrons are my personal lords and saviors and they are keeping me from selling my own Adrenochrome on the streets to fund my crippling content creation addiction. So for this week, I have to think app of top app. Goodness, this name apoptotic apoptotic. I think it's apoptotic. Wednesday, Rach que Nevermore Scott Varney de naam, and ven winter, thank you so much. I truly could not do this show. Without You. You are sustaining this show, making sure that I can bring it for free to the public every single week. And anyone listening to this if you enjoy my work, if you look forward to listening to the show every single week, then please consider becoming a patron for just $1 you get extra content every single week, including my house of heretics podcast with the former Salvation Army officer turned Christian heretic Timothy McPherson, we talk about religion, meditation, politics, media, whatever is in the news that day. And it also helps fund very practical things like when my van breaks down. Your support ensures that I have ongoing transportation and you cover medical bills for my six cats, and so on and so forth. So every little bit helps, and I truly appreciate it. But there are other ways to support the show. One of the best ways is to just leave five stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. And if you do leave a short review. I will read it on the show as thanks. All right. Well, with all of that out of the way. I'm delighted to welcome Keith Frankish to the show, Keith, how are you?

Keith Frankish 03:19
Hello, I'm I'm fine. I'm good. Thank you for inviting me onto your podcast. Well, thank

Stephen Bradford Long 03:23
you so much for taking the time to talk to me. We are in two very different time zones. You're in Greece. I am on the East Coast, so I'm up earlier than usual. I am normally never alive at this time but but I'm alive for you for this conversation. So you are you are Philip Gough's co host and you come highly recommended by Philip Goff and I adore Philip Goff I think He's great. He's been on the show twice. And Philip Goff is a proponent of Pan psychism. And which is the idea that consciousness is everywhere to use his phrasing consciousness is everywhere. And then he described you as believing that consciousness is nowhere. So before we get into it, tell us some about who you are and what you do.

Keith Frankish 04:18
Well, thank you, Steven. Yes, I I feel similarly about about Philippi. We're great friends, even though I've used a rather different Yes, well, I'm a I'm a philosopher. I have affiliations with several universities, and my main one is an honorary readership with the University of Sheffield in the UK. But as you said, I live in in Greece. And I do some teaching for the University of Crete ham. I spend most of my time though, writing both academic work and more popular philosophy and promoting the view that you mentioned there the view that I that I called it's come to be called illusionism with It is often described or you'll find that interviews with me, I tend to appear under the title consciousness is an illusion or something like that. It's not exactly what I want to say. I want to say that there's a certain conception of consciousness that a lot of people have, which I think is quite wrong. And I think consciousness in that sense, doesn't exist. Okay. I think the philosopher's concept of consciousness, if you make is, is the concept of something illusory, something that doesn't exist. And what interests me is why people think it does exist when there was such good reasons for thinking that it doesn't. But I don't want to say that when we talk in an everyday sense of having conscious of having experiences of seeing and hearing, tasting and feeling pain, and so on, in an everyday sense that I don't see those things. I don't say that we don't feel pain that we don't see things that we don't, I'm not, obviously, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that our conception of what's happening. When you feel pain, when you see things, when you hear things, our conception of that the philosophical conception of that is, is very misguided. So one way of expressing that is to say that consciousness is an illusion, but it has to be qualified in the way that I've just done. But I do think that that kind of consciousness that Fitbit believes in the kind that he thinks is, is everywhere, that he thinks that electrons have this kind of consciousness, I think that kind of consciousness is illusory consciousness that could be possessed by an electron, that's illusory. So I want to get that in at the start. Because people often suggest, well, I can convince you that consciousness isn't illusory, by by giving you a punch on the nose, I'm curious that they choose that example. They, if they could, if they think that would work, and that a punch on the nose would work, then, then I guess, doing something nice for me would also work giving me something very nice to taste would give me some chocolates or something would would work as well. Of course, that wouldn't work. Because I don't deny that there is this state that we call pain that we sadly enter all too often, and that it's very real, and that some very unpleasant state, and we know when we're in it, and we don't like it. And we it's, it's, we don't want people to cause it to us. And if where if we're moral people, we don't want it to be caused to anyone else. I agree with all that, of course, the question is, what is that state? And are we conceiving of it in the right way, in particular, philosophers? conceiving of it in the right way, when they think that there's a really, really, really deep problem about the nature of consciousness.

Stephen Bradford Long 07:48
So you, it's, it sounds like you're working towards rejecting the entire framing of, say, the hard problem of consciousness that there is even a hard problem. And I understand the hard problem to mean, you know, how is it and correct me if I'm wrong here, let's see if I can articulate this. The hard problem is, how does inanimate material following the laws of physics give, quote, unquote, give rise to or generate or what have you? There's a femoral phenomenological experience of consciousness. Is that right?

Keith Frankish 08:29
Yes, that's, that's pretty much it. It's cause it's not. It's not necessarily inanimate I mean, we accept that inanimate matter can be organized in ways that become animate that become living. And nowadays, it's quite common. I suppose it's fairly orthodox to suppose that nothing, there's no no great puzzle about how you can create living things out of inanimate matter, nature, did it natural selection did it, you just need to organize inanimate matter in the right way, a very, very, very complex way.

Stephen Bradford Long 09:04
So so that is animate.

Keith Frankish 09:07
So that doesn't involve acquiring some magical new property of becoming some sort of vital essence or vital spirit as people used to believe. It just involves being organized in such a way that it performs some very, very complex processes, that it maintains its its own, it aims homeo homeostasis it regularly. Well, first of all, it needs to you need to organize in some way that it has a sort of backcountry between it and the rest of the world. And with inside that boundary, it maintains certain parameters. Right? It's self sustained, it takes in nutrition. It acts in a way to protect itself and preserve itself. It's able to reproduce, being alive as a matter of having a system that performs certain functions, maintains itself regulates its own condition, and reproduces itself like it's not meant to be a precise definition, but that's the kind of thing and modern biology is explaining how these processes, how inanimate matter can do those things, how it can be organized in a way to do those things. And I take it that, you know, this is the relatively uncontroversial. I suppose there are some people perhaps who think that life requires some extra spark. I think it's it's, it's fairly uncontroversial. Certainly among scientists and philosophers, I think that life is just a very complex organization of the same materials, that everything else is made up. It's not like, you have these old movies, where you have Frankenstein, Otto, and where there is something else that's required. Frank, Frank, takes the various parts of the human bodies, connects them up in the right way. So that it's all the organs and everything like that, but it's still missing the vital spark. And so he has to get the lightning to animate it, there's some extra thing that needs to be to be infused into this inanimate. body in order to make it live. Like the modern view isn't, you just need to get it all working properly, you just need to get the blood pumping. And now, that's very much an analogy for how I think about consciousness. Everyone accepts that, to be conscious, you need to have a brain work, and doing the stuff that brains do. Immense, getting mentally complex stuff, everyone accepts that pretty much I think everyone accepts that you need a brain to be conscious if things happen to your brain can lose consciousness, damage, disease, and so we know that all too well. But a lot of people think there's something more to consciousness than that. It's not just a matter of having the brain doing its mentally complex things, those 86 billion interconnected neurons doing what they do. And it's, there's something extra to it, there's a sort of extra spark, that you could imagine the brain doing all it's all it's performing all its functions, but still not being conscious. And so that's where the hard problem comes in. The hard problem is how to explain this extra step, this extra step from the brain doing all the stuff it does to consciousness itself. And it's like, supposing that there's an extra step between the body doing all its performing all its functions, and being alive. And I deny that I say that we simply don't, we certainly don't understand everything your brain is doing by any means. And it be a long, long time before we do. And, and there's no reason, no good reason to think that there's anything more to it than that. And it's a kind of illusion to think that there's something more to it than that, just as it's an illusion to think that there's something more to life than one's bodily organs, doing all the things they do. So in that sense, I deny that there's a hard problem, a problem over and above explaining everything, that they not just the brain itself, but the embodied brain, possibly being conscious about not just matter of having a brain but having that brain hooked up to the rest of your body and plugged into the wider world in the right kind of way. But there's no special there's no sort of hidden extra, that needs to be explained. So there isn't really a heart problem. What there is, though, is there's a sort of, there's what I've called the illusion problem. There's why the question of why we think there's a hard problem, white seems to us that there's something extra? That's the really interesting question, I think.

Stephen Bradford Long 13:16
And so the question here is not whether or not we have experiences and thoughts and emotions like those, we all know that we have this experience of being us. And that includes pain and happiness and pleasure, and, and so on and so forth. So you aren't denying the experience of those things. But rather, what you are contesting is whether those experiences exist above and beyond the physical processes.

Keith Frankish 13:49
That's, that's, that's, that's pretty, pretty accurate. Yes. Okay. Yes. The danger in bringing in words like experience is that for many people, those words automatically bring in this problematic conception that I want to reject. Right, they think about experience as something that is known in a very special way that is completely private. And that is not explained in terms of not explicable in terms of processes in the brain. So they would that very word experience, they bring in a lot of things I want to reject. What I don't think it is these states that we call experiences, paint, evenings, seeing things and hearing things and tastings. Those states are real, and they are whatever they are. Right, I'm talking about. The question is how we think of those states how we conceptualize them.

Stephen Bradford Long 14:39
So it's almost like the, the feeling that we have that through history has given us notions like the soul, the idea, these these feeling that there's this deep sense that we have that that we have a conscious self or a soul that is above and beyond our physical processes and then this feeling through history has given us you know, concepts like the soul and and Mind Body dualism and so on and so forth. And now today it, it gives us we still have that feeling we still have this sense that our consciousness is almost a mystical thing, a mystical property that is above and beyond or detached from physical processes in the brain.

Keith Frankish 15:26
That's, that's, that's, that's, that's pretty good. Yes, I think what's happened is, yes, for a lot of of many centuries, certainly, in the Western tradition, people thought that the mind consciousness, this was a separate thing, a non physical thing that was somehow associated with the physical body or soul. And that could survive the death of the physical body. Now, in the 20th century, that view became harder and harder to maintain in the face of growing understanding of the intimate connections between what happens in the brain, and what happens in the mind, we know, all too well. But damage to the brain affects the mind. Some conditions, sadly, people can lose much of their personality, and memory, their abilities while still alive. So the mind can go before there, if the brain ceases to function properly. So it became increasingly implausible to hold that the mind was something separate from the brain. But still, people couldn't give up this idea that it's not just the brain, because there seems to be this private inner world that seems quite separate from the rest of the of the public world, the world out there. But I sort of exist here, behind my eyes. In this private world, where, or everything is, it's almost, to use a metaphor that Daniel Dennett uses, it's almost like a private theater where, where the world is displayed for me privately in here, and this is the world of my experience. This is a world where I can dream and hallucinate, maybe, and have my own private world of experience. And it's still it seemed to people but okay, science is telling us that isn't really a separate world, separate, there isn't really some two things here, my body, my brain and my soul. But still, it seemed it couldn't just be the brain, the brain must be somehow producing some extreme extra properties extra, an extra aspect, an extra dimension, that wasn't fully accounted for in terms of what the brain was doing. In terms of the processes the brain was, was execute executing. So what So this is a form of what's called property dualism, rather than substance, it will, rather than saying that there's there are two separate things here, we say that there's one thing the brain but it's kind of doing two things. One hand, it's doing all performing all the functions that the other scientists investigate and that are not deeply complex, but not spatially mysterious. And then somehow, it's also producing this, this sense, is private in a world, but it's still the brain that's producing it, it's not the lot to things. And still, when the brain ceases to function, this private world will be switched off. But it's so it worked. People gave up substance dualism, but they couldn't really give up all of the dualism, they couldn't just say, it's just the brain performing the functions that are performed, there's still something extra being produced there. And so now they talk about the brain producing consciousness giving rise to consciousness, somehow consciousness emerging from the brain. So we still have this dualistic talk, even though we're not supposing that there's a soul. So as I see this, this is, this is a hangover from that more robust dualist tradition. People haven't fully accepted the implications of giving up belief in the soul.

Stephen Bradford Long 19:02
So let me see if I can articulate this. So instead of what was the term you just used, something dualism to describe the brain to deal with is a property of substance dualism versus substance dualism, okay? So property dualism, being the idea that there is the the functions of the brain, and all of those electrons are, you know, connecting and singing to each other and keeping your heart beating and, you know, working memory and all of that stuff, but then all of that calm Plek city is quote, unquote, giving rise to this E mer. to this to this ghost to this hologram that kind of floats above the thing. I'm almost.

Keith Frankish 19:51
It's like a hologram. It's like, this is the problem, how to think about this relation now. This can't give up the idea that there is this private world. But now they don't want to say it belongs to a separate thing, the soul that just is somehow associated with the body. It's still somehow holograms a nice idea. It's a sort of projection. Yeah, yeah, the brain somehow. Or another view, which is closer to the one to Philips view, is that this is this other aspect is somehow the, the intrinsic nature of the brain. So the idea is the brain is doing all these things, performing all these functions that have all these effects on our heart rhythm, and maintaining are all kinds of regulatory functions and functions and controlling behavior. But it also has an inner aspect to it, there's what it's like for the brain itself, intrinsically. So it's, so one way you can think of it as something like a projection. The other is you can think of it as the internal inner nature of all of that. And of course, once you think of it in that way, then it becomes open to say, to go down the pan psychist route to say maybe everything has this inner nature to it, right, maybe even an electron scientists, physicists can tell us what an electron does, how it interacts with other particles. But what about what it really like to be an electron, what's the electron itself like in itself. And so the idea this is one way to fit this extra aspect of ourselves into the world is to suppose that everything in the world has an inner aspect like this. However, the inner aspect is what we call consciousness, the electrons inner aspect is, is another kind of consciousness, a much simpler one. But they're all accepting this intuition that there is something more there that there is a soul very, very complex processes. Yeah, something that needs to be fitted into the rest of the world.

Stephen Bradford Long 21:57
And what you're arguing is that that is not the case that there that there is nothing added there isn't the hologram and there isn't that base reality in the brain of consciousness? It's neither Yes. Instead, you're saying there is just the brain. And and these emergent, what we experience as emergent properties, or what we experience as conscious i Okay, so the word experience, you objected to the word experience a moment ago, the you cautioned against it? Okay, so how, you know, having pain, having thoughts, having feelings, all of that stuff is simply the it is the brain? Is that what you would say? It is just there is no added level? So, I guess the question becomes, why do we have this additional experience?

Keith Frankish 22:57
Exactly? Why, why does it seem so why does this picture seems so compelling to us this picture of the private in a world? Why? If I'm, if I'm right, why does it seem that I'm wrong? Because if you see it, why exactly? Why is it so tempting to think in this dualistic terms? Good. And so there are two parts to what I, what I try to do. One is to make the negative case against that dualistic view, because I think there are all sorts of problems with it. And one problem with it is finding anything for consciousness to do. Because if it's like some sort of projection, or it's like the interior aspect of all this, what difference is it making? Okay, if all our behavior is explicable in terms of what the brain does, what's this extra element doing? It's like saying that, you know, again, there's a vital force in living things. What does that do? What does that explain we can explain the everything that living things do, we can explain reproduction and digestion and all the characteristics of, of respiration and all the characteristics of living things? In terms of biological poses? We don't need this vital spirit to do anything. Why do we need a sort of a vital consciousness? And why do we need a consciousness spirit to do anything? So part of my, what I do is make the negative case against that view, which I think explains the main case against it, I think, is that it explains nothing. Except all it does is justify these intuitions we have. The other part is then to say, well, so why do we have these intuitions? Why does it seem so compelling to think that there is a an intangible private world in here that is radically separate from the rest of the world that you you may know a lot about me, you may study me, you may study my brain. If you're a neuroscientist, you might not everything that's happening my brain you might study my behavior you might study psychology might study my psychological states, but still the 40s You'd never actually penetrate into this private and world of mine, this private world of experience or know what is like for me to experience the world because that is kind of different realm different world, only I can see your hologram as it were, all you can see are the things that are producing the hologram. Now, so I need to explain why that picture seems so compelling. And that is the constructive side of the project. And in it just in a few words, the idea is that I, what's happening when we have experience, and when we have conscious experiences, it's first of all, that we have sensory systems that are sensitive to the world, sensitive to various features of the world. And these sensory systems produce all kinds of reactions in us from very basic physiological reactions, changes in hormone levels, through all kinds of psychological reactions, they trigger memories, associations, emotions, beliefs, beliefs, desires, all sorts of they have all kinds of psychological effects on us. And they have behavioral effects as well, of course, if you, if you're, if you're in pain, you you cry out, and so on. So they have a whole range of effects from the very basic hormonal ones right through to the overt effects on behavior. And the idea is that we also as well as well that we have systems that monitor our own reactions, monitor how and model how we are reacting to the world. And so if I say, if I'm injured, my pain receptors, stimulated, signals travel to my brain, all kinds of reactions occur. Again, from stress hormones, I have a strong desire for whatever's happened to stop, I maybe I feel anger, fear, whatever memories and things. I believe that I'm in distress I'm having anxiety may be caused all sorts of things. And I also have systems that registered that I'm very used to how not just, I don't just react to but I also have systems that register how I'm reacting to the world. Okay, and that enables me to report on how I'm reacting to the world. So I can tell you, that this has happened to me. And I'm aware that it's having some effects on me a whole range of effects, which I in the case of pain I don't like. And so I can say to you, look, I'm in that state, again, where you know, when something damages you and all this stuff happens to you. And you have all these raft of effects, but I can't really describe them in detail. Because I don't have that kind of information. This modelling, this self monitoring is a very coarse grain type, it doesn't present me with all the details of what's happening. It just says, you're in that state, again, that state where something's Bad's happened to you, and you reacting in these, all these range of ways, with this general overall shape. So I can say to you look, I'm in that state, again, that happens when they get injured, and it's, I don't like it. And it's, it's doing stuff to me, I can't really describe it. But I don't like it, I want it to stop. It's a little distressed, I am not happy, and so on. And we've coined a word for that pain, right. And what happens then, though, is we say our pain, right. And that's a word for our way of characterizing the complex state that we enter when we are when our bodies are disturbed or damaged. And what it's actually referring to what we're using it to track other complex, physiological, psychological, behavioral reactions, that bodily damage causes in us. But because we don't, we're not aware of all the detail of this, we're just aware that there's this overall global pattern of reactions in me, which we've coined the word pain to describe. We tend to think that we're talking about something singular and unified, and it's with a distinct identity all of its own, that is more than just the reactions. It's the pain. And now we say, now we start to get into a problem, we've sort of turned this term for describing a complex of reactions into a thing in itself, that somehow needs explaining over and above the

Stephen Bradford Long 29:21
over and above, right, okay, so, in just listening to you talk, I think as I explore what it's like to be me, nowhere in sight is my brain. If I just go off of my experience, on its face, right, there's an AI and that in the same way you so if I'm just sitting here contemplating what it is like to be me, I have no sense of my spleen. I have no sense of my kidney. I have no sense of my intestines, right? And all of these parts of me are are incredibly alien to me. And same with the brain. There's there is no sense of neurons, there is no sense of of, I would have no idea that I had a brain that this consciousness is or this this whatever it is this experience. Is, is. Right. And and there's that experiential break in our realities that severing in our realities, would you do you think that that is what also causes this this intuition that we have a consciousness above and beyond physical processes because when just the sheer fact of the matter is that when we think about what it means to be us when we think about what it means to be human, nowhere on display is the brain.

Keith Frankish 30:58
Absolutely. Okay. I absolutely agree. And I think that is a major part of the explanation for the intuition of, of dualism. And there's a, there's a very natural explanation for that. And I suggest that we have self monitoring self modeling systems, I guess, I'm tempted to think that we have these, because we're social creatures. We don't just react to things, we don't just see things, hear things feel things. We also share information about the things we're seeing and hearing and feeling. And we share information about how they affect us. Because they that's, that doesn't taste nice, don't, don't do that, or that will hurt. Or that's nice, try that we can share information. And this, this is a hugely important aspect of human life, we don't have to wait and try things to find out what they're like we can tell each other in advance, we can take precautions, we can seek out things that other people have told us a nice, we can avoid things other people have told us a nasty, this is this hugely important aspect of human life. And so I think evolution has equipped us with systems talking this loose way about systems with systems, monitoring how things affect us. We don't just undergo reactions to the world, we also monitor our own reactions, so that we can report them to other people. But we don't need to know all the details of of how things we don't need to know that it's causing activity that this the damage to my stubbing my toe, for instance is causing activity in such in such a brain region. We don't need to know that when I see something beautiful that it's there's activity in certain regions of my visual cortex. We don't need to know all these grisly neuroscientific details, we just need to know what it what it how it affects us. Is it nice? Is it nasty? Does it is it like something else that we experienced? Does it? Is it something you want to recommend something you want to tell people to avoid? How does it relate in very abstract terms to other kinds of experiences, and to set into other behaviors? Okay, so we just have this abstract notion of pain is just this bad thing, this horrible thing, this awful thing. Now, what we're actually tracking, there is a hugely complex, reactive state that is that exists because of what the brain is doing. We don't need to know all those details. We just need to know it's that state that you want to avoid, right? That one now. And it's precisely because we have such so little information about the nature of the state, that we tend to think that the state isn't isn't a brain state isn't a reactive state isn't even physical at all. All we know is it's that thing that we don't like. So it's the nature has given us a very simplified conception of our own inner life, inner here, being in quite a literal sense of what's happening inside us of our own physiological, psychological, behavioral state. It's allowed us to attract that but it's given us such a simplified schematic sense of it, that we tend to think that it isn't even a physiological state or psychological state or at all. It's something extra, right? So it's the limitations of our own self conception that lead us to thinking but as an extra world,

Stephen Bradford Long 34:48
right. And you know, you keep referring to the boundary between there the inner life, this this feeling that you have a A sense of self that is behind your eyes, usually behind your face. And accompanying that is all your inner thoughts and emotions. But then we have this feeling of the outer world, we have the tactile sensation on our skin, we have the visual field, we have sound, etc. And so I'm a meditator, I meditate with Sam Harris. And one of the things that is really interesting, while practicing some forms of meditation is how that barrier breaks down. And you can actually like, if you pay close enough attention, you can actually experience the boundary between your inner that that realizing that the inner world of thoughts and feelings and emotions and then the the quote, unquote, outer world of stimuli, visual stimuli, tactile sensation, auditory experience, olfactory experience, that that boundary is actually false, that is an illusion, and that all of these things are actually taking place in in this same undefined sphere is and it's, I'm using all metaphorical language here, because it's hard to capture. But there is the realization, you know, if you in meditation, paying close enough attention to that experience of inner and outer. If we do that, then we realize that there is no inner and outer there is just there, there is just this undefined state. Does that makes sense? Am I Am I

Keith Frankish 36:49
Yes. I wish I knew more about meditation to be able to engage with that in a really sophisticated way. But let me let me just say this, I, I do want to talk about an inner world. But spatially inner world is the world of what's happening inside our bodies. Right? Right. Right. And this is Inner Inner.

Stephen Bradford Long 37:11
So you lean in. So you mean it in a literal sense, not in a not in an experiential sense, we,

Keith Frankish 37:19
our brains, our sensory systems are tracking features of the world around us around us and features of ourselves.

Stephen Bradford Long 37:25
So you're defined, right? So you mean it in a in a very literal way. Whereas what I was just describing is experiential,

Keith Frankish 37:32
that, that tracking the world around us and the world inside us literally inside, right? processes of interoception, which tracking states of our bodies, processes of introspection, I think we're tracking states of our brains. Okay. So we are our brains, we aren't our brains, we are our own bodies, we are the brains embodied in, in our bodies, and in our environment. But let's, let's say our brains, our brains are tracking the world out there. And they're tracking the world in here. But the, the, the part of the world out there that is inside my, my skin if you like, okay, and that creates the sense of there being a dualism, because we're tracking out of stuff and innocent. But actually, it's all part. In the end, it's all part of the same reality. tracking what's happening in me isn't tracking something that is distinct ontologically metaphysically distinct for what's out there. It's just a complex part of what's out there that is sort of located here. And it's tracking itself. Yes. Okay. So there really isn't a sharp boundary between the inner and the outer. There's just a complex world, part of which is tracking both the world around it and itself. But there's no sharp ontological separation between the inner and the outer. It's, it's all it's all one. So in that sense, that's that that agrees with what you're saying about the dissolution of this boundary. And I think what we have, as we talked about, we who's we, in all of this, because we're talking about brains with different bodies. But I'm also talking about what we think what we've who's we here? Well, essentially, I think we is where the public relations department of all of this, I am kind of snoring I tell you, I can tap all kinds of information about what's happening around me and what's happening inside me. And I can put this into a communicable form. I can say, I'm seeing this. I'm seeing something over there. And then I can tell you how I'm feeling about what I'm seeing out there the other day, it's frightening me or it is pleasant. It's tempting me or tasting this and it's it's really nice and it takes a look and talk about how the what I'm tasting I can say this, this this can say this tastes of coffee. And I can say whether I like the taste that coffee taste and so I can talk about this interplay between the properties of the thing that and the prop and the reactions it's creating in me, and it was like going with it. So, we, we are the, I think we're the storyteller who coming up with all these statements about how things, how things are affecting me, what I'm detecting up there, and how it's affecting me. And I am just the sort of the locus of all these all these interactions with the world. Okay. And so I put it in terms of, I am experiencing this, I am reacting in this way. And so it's, it's, it arises from the communicative function of all of this. Okay? You could just, you could say, I am just the, the, the, the, the, the, the organism, the person, the Animate body. And so that's one sense, but we also use it to express the character of the interaction that this body is having with the world. Right. And this seems to be something more internal. Because after all, the reaction is something that I can I can directly report to you. I can say the coffee tastes bad. Okay. Well, that's directly reporting on an interaction, which, as you say, I don't, I don't need to know that it's grounded in in sensory systems in migraine, I don't need to know what exactly it is the time detecting a coffee. It's just an interaction between the reporter hear me and the coffee. I say, I don't like it. That again, that I isn't, isn't it's a way of expressing the interaction, rather than a label for something inside, right, that is experiencing and the interaction if you like, and

Stephen Bradford Long 41:48
at no point in that process, does this mystical additional property appear? So it's almost like you don't need your comms razor? You there's no no necessary. No, no additional unnecessary entities. Absolute in that process. Yeah. Okay. So that makes that makes complete sense. And the thought is

Keith Frankish 42:09
that if you spelled out in enough detail, I mean, I've just been just I've been talking about self monitoring systems and interactions. And I've been just, and communication I've been talking extremely schematic, sketchy ways. Not surprisingly, I'm talking about a system that is 86 billion neurons that we only have that the, the the crudest understanding of at the moment, but the thought is if we could tell that story in enough detail about the nature of the interaction of what's going off, and how the nature of its own self awareness and its own self monitoring, and how that results in beliefs, and intuitions and things that we want to share with each other, if we could tell that story enough, Anita was see that there was just the idea that there needed to be something else, as well as all of that will just drop out just as once we see, we understand the process the biological processes. In a living organism, right down to the cellular level, the sub cellular level, the way that the cells are specialized and organized into organs and their organs connected up when we talk tell all of that story in enough detail about the developmental side within the kinetic side of it. amazingly complex. No, but once you've told her that story, if we could, it's no need for any extra vital spirit, extra essence of life beyond all of that, in a way, the the the, the notion of a vital spirit is just a sort of shorthand for our ignorance. Yeah, it's a god. Yeah. And yes, yes. That's how I think the philosopher's concept of consciousness is just a label for our ignorance of the complexity that's really going on that. Now you might say, Well, okay, well, that's okay. We're ignorant. Yeah, we have a label for it. Yes, that's okay. As long as you recognize that, that's what it is, where it becomes dangerous and lead you down a dead end is when you start to think that it isn't just a label for our lack of knowledge of something, it's actually a label for our positive knowledge of something mysterious, right, which then needs to be accommodated within our view of reality. And you start wondering how the brain produces isn't whether electrons have it and how it can be sure other people have eaten new fish have it or not, and you think of it as an inner light that is mysterious and private, and, and you start doing a lot of philosophy, written ways or frankly, wasting a lot of time. theorize about something that is merely a lack of knowledge.

Stephen Bradford Long 44:44
Right. Right. So Philip Goff talks about especially at the end of his book, he talks about how he believes that pan psychism and and for the uninitiated listening pan psychism again, is the believe that consciousness is a fundamental feature of reality. And he says that, that pan psychism might help people cultivate a greater sense of being at home in the universe, and that maybe we would treat nature better, maybe, you know, he says, Well, if the rainforest is teeming with consciousness, I think was the phrase he used, then maybe we would treat it differently, and maybe we would not be in the environmental catastrophe that we're in now. And so he really believes that, or suggests that there might be some real life tangible consequences and positive consequences and how we treat other people and how we treat the planet, and how we feel we might fit in how might illusionism affect how we interact with others? So if if it how might this tangibly impact how we treat other human beings and ourselves?

Keith Frankish 46:06
Yes, that's a great question. Well, I think I think it has positive effects, probably under understood, and it's properly understood, I shouldn't say I think, I don't think we should judge views. Simply on that on there, I don't think we should judge views by their ethical consequences, because it could be that the truth is

Stephen Bradford Long 46:28
horrible. It's horrible, me that the truth is terrifying.

Keith Frankish 46:33
It would be nicer to believe in life after death, right? Like to believe in that. But I kind of been deceiving myself if I did. So I don't think we should just, we should say, if a view is unpleasant, we should, we should reject it just for that, though, we should be much more cautious about it. Because if a view is going to have dangerous consequences, then we should be much more careful about asserting it, which will make sure we're really really confident of its truth before we we we go about promoting it. But I think in the case of illusionism I think I see the implications is really benign, and actually not so different from one's Phillips, you look at it like this, if you think of consciousness as this radically private in a world that is not this somehow separate from in some way separate from from from the public world. So only I really I can I can experience my conscience I know it's like, but no one else can no one can see the hologram. But me now this puts a barrier between us. After all, consciousness is supposed to be the most important thing, the nature of our consciousness is supposed to be the most important thing, what it's like for me, what it's like for you what it's like for other creatures. This is supposed to be the most important thing, the most morally significant feature of our existence is what it's like for us, I guess, one of them a very important one anyway. Now, if we suppose that that's radically private, and then accessible, then we can never really know the most important is this very important ethical fact about it about other creatures, we can never even be sure that they have this in our life. We've asked our fish conscious. And what they were asking there, I think often is, is there this private inner world inside officials, behind officials eyes where the eyes look rather dead and cold? Does it have this private in a world? Behind them? Are the other lights on inside? And the thing is, there's nothing we can do? To? To answer that question, we can map it to brain processes, we can compare that ask whether it has similar sorts of brain, how similar its brains are to ours. And we could we can maybe hypothesize that certain features in our brains are important for consciousness and ask whether the fish have those processes, but we can never be sure precisely because there's a hard problem in relating brain processes to this private world of consciousness, we can never bridge that gap. So you can never be sure that any other creature has this. And so it radically privatizers consciousness privatizers this locus of ethical significance. And it means we can never really know what it's like to be a fish, what it's like to be a bat or even really what it's like to be another person. Now I reject that view. I don't think there is anything radically part of it in that way, I think what they're, what is what we have organisms reacting to the world in massively complex ways, ways that it's very difficult for us to, to, to map and to describe that which are not in principle, hidden from us if we've studied the fish carefully enough studied in it in exhaustive detail, what effects different stimuli have on it not just on it, how it moves and behaves, but on what happens inside it on its feet. theology on its psychology, on its reactions at the finest grained level, then we wouldn't know what impact. We wouldn't know whether it's in pain, we wouldn't know what it's like to be the fish, because talking about pain is just a very sketchy way of talking about the impact that things make on it, but make on an organism. So what this does is it removes the barriers between us. And it didn't, instead of saying, Oh, I can't know what that what that person feels like, it's missing me what's going on it? No reason you don't know, you? Can't? You don't know. It's because you haven't studied carefully enough. And I think we can, I think we can see the truth of this. I think if you think about a relationship you have with someone very close to you, and how if you've lived with someone for a long time, observe them. Not just as a scientist, but just as someone who shares the same space with them, you begin to understand how, what the world is like for them? How things affect them, how they react, not just on a sort of overt level, what makes them angry, what makes them so you understand? How things affect them, psychologically, you understand? What's happening inside them as it were, you understand what memory is that's that that's conjuring up what associations What fears, what doubts and so on, you begin, you know, that certain stimuli will create this pattern of effect, and you begin to know what it's like to be them. And illusionism offers the hope of knowing each other and knowing the, the rest of the of the animal world. So I think it's, it's an encouragement to pay more attention to each other and to the rest of the animal world. Because if

Stephen Bradford Long 51:46
there is this fundamentally mysterious kind of ghost in the machine, yeah, well, then that is ultimately alienating, but painful, because then that means that we can never access the ghost in the other machines, the ghosts in the other machines and know that that that makes sense. And, you know, when I was reading also, I think, sorry, no, no, go on, go on go on.

Keith Frankish 52:17
The other side is that it also tends to inflate our own sense of own importance, because we're not just complex bits of the living world, like trees and things that we don't think of as being conscious, have waterfalls and trees and the environment, generally, we have this special spark in silence. Right? That makes you know, that the lights are on inside. And that makes us more important. And now that we certainly are more, we certainly react in a much more complex way to the world. But it doesn't we're not metaphor, I don't think we're metaphysically sort of different from waterfalls and trees and, and other things that we don't think of as having this in our life. Okay. And so I, I see this view as routing as both encouraging empathy. And, to some extent, deflating egoism. Yeah. And encouraging a view of us as being just very complex bits of the world.

Stephen Bradford Long 53:08
Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that I found myself thinking while reading the into Phillips book, and I like his book, and I encourage everyone to read it, it's a fantastic book. But this sense of alienation from the universe, because we have this conscious self and the rest of the universe does not feel conscious, it does not it the rest of the universe feels dead in comparison to our consciousness, and therefore there is this innate sense of homelessness, and alienation. And I'm like, Well, isn't this all just a matter of framing? Isn't this sense of alienation? Just a matter of framing because the universe we can't we came from the universe we are the universe we are i It's like Douglas Adams saying, we are like the, the puddle that the I forget the exact metaphor, you know, we are perfectly fitted to the universe in the same way the puddle is perfectly fitted. Well, the reason is because the universe is what gives us our shape, our form, our our chemistry, all of that we are the universe, we are of the universe, and we are the universe. And so isn't this sense of alienation, just a matter of framing? And so if we see ourselves as as these fundamentally spiritual beings in the universe is fundamentally material and dead Well, then, yeah, we'll probably feel some alienation or we could frame it in the opposite direction, we could frame it as we are. We, the universe is our home we we evolved in this universe through natural through natural selection, and, and so on and so forth. And so isn't this feeling of alienation just a matter of framing? And that's that was the thought that I found myself having while reading the A passage.

Keith Frankish 55:00
That's that's that's prospective. It's very congenial to me. And I think to the, to the way that I've been that I look at this, another thing that this does is in, in removing the mysterious extra I think it focuses our attention back on the wondrous, what do I want to say? In suppose that there's something non physical, in addition to all the wondrous physical complexity it, it tends to diminish our sense of the wonder of that physical complexity. It's like, well, cause the brain is doing marvelous things are wonderful, and so on. But that's not really the story. The story is this extra thing that comes in and somehow the brain produces. And that's where the wonder and the mystery of alien, I started wondering, the mystery lies in what the brain has been shaped to do by hundreds of 1000s of years, hundreds of millions, I don't want to say billions of years of natural selection, yes. Which has shaped it to do wondrous things. What's wondrous about the brain is not that it produces some special sauce that some extra it's that it does wondrous things. And that's one it's a and similarly with midlife life is one reason by supposing that there's a hard problem here is, is locating all the wonder in the wrong place. It's it, there's this common the example of Mary, the scientist who's studied vision, but has never experienced so I can, I can wait marry black and white, maybe she's studied color vision and shaped the neuroscience of color vision, but she's never actually experienced color herself. She's she's lived in a black and white environment. But she knows everything about the neuroscience of vision. Now, the idea is that she's cut off from the essence of vision, because she's never actually experienced it. Well, I think, in a way no, she's she is if you take seriously ideas, she really understands how vision works, color vision worked, she she's she's she understands the miss the wonder of it better than anyone. Sure she has not been out in the world and learn to communicate about it in the way but the rest of us have to learn to apply these concepts to our own. But she knows the wonder of television better than anyone. We it's, it's a searching for words, sake. But it's it's one of the frustrations, I guess I feel with with a lot of, I suppose religious discourse is that it kind of locates the source of value and meaning in the wrong place. It puts it in some extra Monday, out of this world out of ourselves that we bring the value we bring the wonder, yes. And we also bring the we bring that, you know, having them we also bring the hell as well. We don't need to externalize it, it's in US and in our interactions. And that's where we need to work on it instead of you know, putting it in some in some in some external realm.

Stephen Bradford Long 58:04
As my friend Shiva honey says, You are the magic. Yes, it's yes, you are, you are the magic. And yeah, for listeners of my show will know who, who and what I'm talking about. So in the last, Sorry, go on.

Keith Frankish 58:20
That's right. This is one thing that I should say that there's some I don't want to get persuade anyone, but I'm often labeled A physicalist. I would accept that label. But it's often seen as, as a pejorative label as if, physically some people want to take all the meaning and wonder out of the world and just reduce everything to mechanisms. And say that nobody really feels anything and thinking really means anything. And it's all just a dead mechanical work. I don't disagree with that perspective, more, I think, just I think some physicalists do materialist Do do do tend to project that picture that image a little bit and and that don't they bother me? Because I think that so much wonder, and magic real magic. Yeah, not made up magic, you know, that we've invented because we don't really know the explanation. There's real magic happening. We don't and when we can understand it. If we study hard enough, the consciousness is real. All right. And it's and it's wonderful and magical. But it's not something that's set apart in a distinct in a distinct we started. We don't it's not another kind of thing. It's just a very complex, kind of, we need to look at the complexity is where the magic is,

Stephen Bradford Long 59:44
you know, I've been reading some Steven Pinker lately and he talks about you know, how language works in the brain and all of this stuff and just just reading his analyses of language and and how language works in the human brain and just being an absolute all of that process. It is, it is the closest thing to real magic that I've ever experienced, is come real contact with the real world and these real processes, it is the closest thing to real magic. And is

Keith Frankish 1:00:26
on the surface, absolutely alone is scratching the surface. Imagine what it's going to be like, when, a couple of 100 years when we have a much deeper understanding of these things.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:00:35
Absolutely. Before we wrap up, do you have any questions for me?

Keith Frankish 1:00:39
Well, I don't I confess I haven't been following your podcast so much. So I don't know the things you talk about. You did mention that you describe yourself as a Satanist. That's right. And at first I was a little What's that mean? And then I had a look at the the website of the of the Satanic Temple, Satanic Temple. And I looked and I thought, well, this seems very congenial. Actually seem, it seemed. So it's it seemed like a I guess a lot of it seemed like a form of humanism, but with perhaps with a sort of more punky edge, or Yeah. Rebellious edge to it. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:01:28
absolutely.

Keith Frankish 1:01:29
So I just wondered, I can. And so I just wondered why, it seems it's it's a sort of somewhat aggressive description of what seems really actually very compassionate and humane worldviews. I just wondered why you why you? Is it just do? Is it just a reaction against oppression and authority? And the idea? It's a bit like Milton's Satan, who was rebelling against the dictatorship of God? Is that the idea that it's an expression of, of resistance to authority?

Stephen Bradford Long 1:02:07
Yeah, well, and the key phrase is undue authority. So not all authority is bad, right? Not all, not all authority is abusive. So it has no problem with authority necessarily, or my Satanism doesn't necessarily have a problem with authority. It's undue authority. And so it and you know, I think a lot of it also has to do with you so so people very often have a negative reaction to the name Satan. And as you just said, it feels very aggressive. And it feels, I don't feel that. And so I sometimes wonder if like, so I see the imagery of Satanism, I see the imagery of the Baphomet, which is our our statue that we put that the Satanic Temple puts on government property as a counterpoint to the 10 commandments to express genuine pluralism and I just see, I just see it as beautiful, I see it as lovely. And, and I don't have that same reaction. And so I wonder, there are times when I really wonder if like, my disgust response is just not like, non existent. And so but I hear that that reaction, and that disgust from a lot of people. For me, it's really rooted in my experience of being queer, and my experience of being an outsider and church. And so there's this deep association with the outsider. And I think part of the reason why it is fundamentally uncomfortable is because the outsider is almost always uncomfortable. Yes, you know, and so, the same feeling that we have towards the name Satan is very often is, you know, through history, the same feeling that people have had towards minorities. And so it's actually kind of a very tangible connection with the implications of being an outsider. And, and part of the point for me is, oh, that feeling of disgust is actually very misleading. That's part of it. The you know, the moving from disgust to humanity as a necessary process and the initial the initial disgust or or shock that we might feel at the outsider, and Satan is the ultimate outsider. That's the same shock and disgust that we feel towards all outsiders. And the key one for me personally, one of the points of Satanism is to realize, oh, that emotion is unreliable. And so Satanism is a meta commentary on that whole process that, that Satan is is a you know, in our Satan, you know, the Satan of the Satanic Temple is first of all a metaphorical figure we don't literally believe in him but which is very important that people grasp. But but the dis, the shock or the disgust or the kind of wincing away, that's how we have responded to the outsiders throughout history. And, and so Satanism I feel like it can't be cozy while also advocating for the outsider, because the very act of advocating for the outsider is deeply uncomfortable.

Keith Frankish 1:05:43
I do like that you articulated that very, very eloquent way. And I do I mean, after all, religion, formal religion has been used to define nationalities and ethnicities. And so it directs us to the way of defining them and does and it's it's been motivated, motivated, conflict and war and exclusion. And the authorities that have controlled it, as you say, manipulated people's feelings of disgust and so through exactly through the imagery and propaganda, to represent the the other, the people who are outside the, the ethnic boundary, but as as as as disgusting. So that makes a lot of sense to me. So I like that.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:06:33
And, you know, the church invented Satanism, the the church, the Catholic Church, and I was talking with Joseph Laycock, who is a religious scholar, and he, he wrote the book on the Satanic Temple called Speak of the devil. And so I was having him on the show, and he was and he's Catholic. And he's, but he's very supportive of the temple. And he studies us as a new religious movement. And it was like, so do you. So you're Catholic, like, how do you deal with this? And he was like, Well, you know, the Catholic Church invented Satanism. In the Middle Ages, you know, the Catholic Church invented the concept of Satanism. So it's almost like I'm checking in on my kids making sure my kids are doing well. But he's right, that the, the church created the concept of Satanism as a weapon against mostly Jewish people. Yes. And against Christian heretics, they worshipped Satan, they, and they did unspeakably awful things to the Eucharist, and so on. And so there's this long process of, of attribution, slowly turning into identification. And that has been my personal process. So I'm gay. And I went through exorcisms in the church and I was told continually that I, that there was something fundamentally demonic about me. And, and so it and so the sense of being an outsider is very deeply connected to who I am as a person. And so it and what I have come to find is that now there is actually quite, there's quite a bit to embrace there, there's actually quite a bit of empowerment in, in standing in solidarity with the outsider, and kind of

Keith Frankish 1:08:28
which, of course, was what the founder of Christianity did. Exactly. So maybe he was maybe the he would have identified more with with your,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:08:40
I like to think that he would, absolutely was

Keith Frankish 1:08:43
certainly they will. He was it was accused of hanging around with low life types and not following the dietary laws and generally, being a disreputable salt who didn't, didn't conform. So yeah, and of course, the other name for Satan of course is Lucifer which means the light

Stephen Bradford Long 1:09:05
the light bringer which is Yeah, and so I personally connect that to, to the end to enlightenment values to science to inquiry to asking questions to questioning everything to genuine skepticism. And so I I tie that in to the scientific method to and so on and so forth.

Keith Frankish 1:09:31
So if the orthodox view of consciousness is the is the one that's rooted somehow in dualism, can we then suggest that the Satanist altered the delusion ism is the satanists position on consciousness?

Stephen Bradford Long 1:09:46
So fortunately, so. So, you know, in a, in a kind of basic sense, all satanist means is someone who revered the symbol of Satan. So that's a very, very broad definition So I know Satanists who are theistic there say the majority of Satanists will be non theistic, but I know many Satanists who take the view that you take, and so I've had conversations with, they, my friend, penname, who says that Satanism is a carnal religion, and he doesn't mean that in terms of kinky sex, but he, he means that in terms of it is a religion of the body, it is a it is a, it is a religion of the body, and and, first and foremost, being concerned with matters of the physical and the body and seeing all things taking place on this plane of existence, on the material plane, and so there and then consciousness, what we experience as consciousness would also be carnal in that way.

Keith Frankish 1:10:50
So that's, that's, that's, that's where it all matters. That's, yeah, it's, it's, it's not in some I some strange metaphysical realm that consciousness consciousness is here and our interaction with the world and things impinging on US and US reacting to them, this, it's I like to use a metaphor, some, like a bell that we're like bells on the world as striking as and we're making these reverberating with them. And that's where the action is in this interview, in this interaction between us and the rest of the world.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:11:26
And that's where our ethical concerns are too. And so I believe I personally like to think of so a longtime symbol of Satanism, you'll see on my neck, I have the pentagram here. And so the pentagram, the, the traditional pentagram, the fifth point is pointed up, yeah, you can just barely see it on there, there's near the five points of the pentagram, but traditionally, that that point is pointing up, and I take that to mean that our concern that the concern is spiritual, it is up it is, it is up to the metaphysical it is towards the ethereal and the metaphysical, but Satanists invert that. And to me, that that represents the concern with the material and that our ethical concerns, first and foremost are grounded in the material. And and in material conditions and, and the, with how we treat our neighbor here and now in in the material. And it it is about the material here and now and not about the hereafter.

Keith Frankish 1:12:36
Absolutely. You've been very eloquent. And that's, I guess my, my sort of background was kind of watching Hammer Horror movies in the in the night. Yes. I adore Hammer Horror. But I like this. It's, it's, it makes a lot of sense. What I mean, as you say, there are strong traditions with certain within Christianity, speaking up for the of the outsider and identifying with the outsider. And it's so ironic that the institution of religion has has, has created its own class of outsiders that it can't empathize with precisely because it's defined them as without, without outside itself

Stephen Bradford Long 1:13:23
outside grace. Yeah, exactly. So exactly. Well, I don't want to take up any more of your time, but this has. This has been great. And I've really enjoyed it for people to who want to discover more of your work. Where can they do that? Do you have a website online that they can go to?

Keith Frankish 1:13:43
Yes, there's a lot of stuff on my website. It's just my name. Keith Frankish ke i th fra en Kish all one word.com. Perfect. I'm also on Twitter. I'm quite active on Twitter so you can find me there and very talk about philosophy and also about a little bit of silliness as well.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:14:05
Beautiful. All right, well, it has been great and I've thoroughly enjoyed this.

Keith Frankish 1:14:10
We do. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. I've really enjoyed it. Well, that is

Stephen Bradford Long 1:14:13
it for this show. The theme song is wild by eleventy seven you can find it on Apple Music or Spotify or wherever you listen to music. This show is written produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long, it is supported by my patrons and it is a production of rock candy recordings as always Hail Satan, and thanks for listening

1:14:34
You

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STKasarda

2022-10-11T08:06:09Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STKasarda
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
data, people, vpn, corporations, app, talking, called, friends, privacy, long, person, encryption, conversation, aggregating, state, facebook, passphrase, tools, world, post
SPEAKERS
Karl Kasarda, Stephen Bradford Long

Stephen Bradford Long 00:13
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long, and we are here on the rock candy Podcast Network. For more shows like this one, go to rock candy recordings.com All right. Well, as always, I have to thank my patrons. My patrons are my personal lords and saviors, and they make this debilitating content creation addiction possible, keeps me from selling my internal organs on the street to keep this habit going. Also, I have to say, times are rough out there financially right now. And I need you to take care of yourself. First and foremost, all content on my Patreon is accessible for $1 a month. If you are able to hand out $1 a month to your favorite podcaster. Please do so it does help this show keep going. This is a job I do all of the editing, all of the producing all of the booking, all of the interviewing your financial support really does make it possible. But it is also hard out there. So first and foremost, take care of yourself. And there are other ways to support this show. Leave five stars on Apple podcasts or on Spotify. That really helps that tells our digital overlords that this show is worth sharing with others. So for this week, I have to thank Michael semi L, Nick's Ward and f v. Thank you so much. And for those of you who want to join their number, go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long. For $1 $3 $5 a month you get extra content every single week, including my house of heretics podcast with the former Salvation Army officer Timothy McPherson turned Christian heretic, and we talk about religion, theology, meditation, politics, whatever is in the news that day. All right, well, speaking of our digital overlords, I am Welcome. I am happy to welcome Karl Kasarda to the show, Carl, how are you?

Karl Kasarda 02:31
I'm doing pretty well. Thank you for having me on here. It's a it's really great to be on your show. I've been a listener for a long time and appreciate your work and have been involved in those topics of digital overlords and are hopefully security as well for a long time, not just not just personally but also as a actual my career at one point as well as my personal work now. So kind of crosses all all those boundaries.

Stephen Bradford Long 02:56
Amazing. Yeah, so we run it a lot of, you know, we've run in similar spaces. You are a longtime member, and of TST, the Satanic Temple. You're one of the ministers in the Satanic Temple. You also have a YouTube channel called in range TV, you're a gun guy. Yeah. I'm not a gun guy. And I've actually, you know, for a long time, I've wanted to have you on to talk about guns to like, educate me on guns and, and whatnot. But we I just haven't gotten to it. But now here we are talking about digital security. But so tell us some about who you are and what you do. Yeah, sure.

Karl Kasarda 03:35
Appreciate that. So like, yeah, you know, the gun guy terms is an interesting one, because that immediately brings up these images of, well, those guys, right, and those people, and there's a, there's a broad spectrum, people that are interested in that topic, that aren't necessarily that that image that we always see of that, right, obviously, in regards to myself that you know, right wing, Christian, male, dangerous human being. So that's not me. And there's a lot of people like us that are not that. And so when it comes to my personal work, which was in range, as you mentioned, I like to think of it as a channel that has firearms as its axis, but talks about lots of topics around it as well. So like, it's kind of the nexus of not just firearms as an interest, but mutual aid, personal defense, firearms, and its influence over history, culture, conflict. So like there's that but there's episodes on there about the Underground Railroad or read summer of 1919 are things where firearms and civil rights collide, sometimes in good ways. And many times in very bad ways. But it's as with any technology, it's a reasonably it cuts in every direction. So that's kind of what in range is about. It's kind of like all over the place in that regard.

Stephen Bradford Long 04:40
That's fascinating. Yeah. And I would love to have you on again, to talk more about that. We're going to talk about something far more stressful, at least it is for me, which is digital security. So Shelley's Blythe and I did a series of conversations in in response to Row being overt turned. And during that kind of two part conversation we had, she really recommended you to come on to talk about how people can stay safe online, how how can people protect themselves, a lot of people I think, are feeling incredibly vulnerable. And a lot of minorities, a lot of trans people, a lot of women, a lot of people with uteruses, a lot of sexual minorities and religious minorities. So I think that it's incredibly helpful to just know how to maintain kind of a daily routine level of safety, that can just raise people's level of sense of security, so that they feel less vulnerable. And that can raise kind of a general global sense of wellbeing for them, even if they never find themselves in a situation where it's actually needed. It's still a good idea to know how to feel safe. So talk to them about your your experience in digital security. And then let's go from there. Let's talk about how, what are basic things right now that people can do to feel more secure in the world?

Karl Kasarda 06:22
That is this? It's a very difficult broad question, because in many ways, when it comes, the horse has been let out of the corral a long time ago. And so it's very hard to bring things back in, but have been let out. And in some instances, not possible. So if you want just a brief bit of history, I was like, given the hacker space DEF CON, landed up in a career of Information Security, Architecture, encryption, all sorts of stuff, maybe deeper than we want to talk about now. But that's kind of the background of how I got into that sort of thing. And then as well as with my video content creation project become well, you become a public figure, as you've experienced with probably your work too, and that people know your name and recognize you. And those can be very positive parasocial relationships, they can be neutral or strangely negative, as well as depending on the topics you're dealing with, you are putting yourself out there as a potential target. But you know, what, like just being content creators, as you are described, doesn't necessarily make us different in that regard. Most of the people are probably all people that are members of our religious movement, or other religious movements are targets by the nature of just having a belief system that's different than others. And in this increasingly dangerous world, we're living, especially here in the United States. But worldwide, it's not just here, right? We're seeing kind of a rise of more authoritarian type people who are willing to say pretty scary stuff about anyone else that doesn't fit their idea of what's a positive identity. Maybe that was long winded. But one of the first things that of course, we saw people doing within TST, were taking Satan names or using some sort of an alias. The challenge with using an alias and I hope, you know, guide this conversation, the challenge with using using an alias is that if at any time you ever crossed the streams, meaning for example, post a picture with your face on it with your alias, or like your alias account, and then ever post a picture of yourself with your real name anywhere. The the level of facial recognition that is no broad spectrum across social media is so broad that the chances of you now connecting those two together is so great that you might as well have not bothered with your alias in the first place. If you have a dedicated person pursuing you. Now, it's all about the risk, right? Is it the individual, bad actor down the street that happens to be the guy with the Trump flag? Or is it something greater, like at the government level or nation state? These are the spectrum goes across the board. So I don't know if I'm going down the path you're wanting to. But like, let me start with the simplest this

Stephen Bradford Long 08:41
is this is perfect. This is this is great, because I mean, that is the range of threat that people feel. I mean, there there are individual members of minority religions. And it isn't just Satanists. I mean, it's it's witches. It's fuck like people from Eastern religions, sometimes in various rural places, there is this feeling of being very vulnerable, not just from maybe your next door neighbor, but also from maybe state powers, for example, in light of the overturning of Roe v. Wade, and these absolutely horrific medieval laws in places like Alabama and Mississippi, right. So, yeah, that that range that you're talking about is absolutely appropriate. So basic things for people to feel some measure of security to have some measure of security in that situation.

Karl Kasarda 09:37
Well, the simplest thing you can start to do, and I think we've all been like, it's interesting. There's a phrase that actually Steven Johnson lab I worked with, and maybe some of you heard of him, the artist guy. He did a musical album that was called the prisons of this prisons of the disinformation age and there's a particular line in one of those songs that says when the tool becomes the trap, and boy that hits home And because so many of these tools we work with now that are incredibly useful to us, in many ways can become a trap. And so what you need to think about and we're gonna start from the very basic level here is, what am I putting into the World Data Wise that I don't have control over? So you mentioned Roe versus Wade, a really good segue, that's a real good lead into just one simple thing that probably a number of people have heard about. But maybe I can bring some data to the table about why it's so dangerous ministration tracking apps that are on your phone, you are more than often not that data is not staying on your personal device, the phone in your pocket, or on your computer, it is probably some cloud based app that stores that information under the auspices of a corporation on something like Amazon s3, or Google Storage or something like that. So the problem we run into here, when we see this sort of legal issue we're now obviously going to run into is that you have no understanding of in our controls of your, your intellectual, not just your intellectual property, but your your privacy in regards to how that corporation will maintain that data should they ever receive from a nation or state actor a request for the information on their servers. So let's say, and this is why this is so this is where we'll get into the better hygiene of this terms of data hygiene. In Texas, they're doing this regarding reproductive rights, the idea, I mean, we'll just go with this straightforward. Like if you were to have to require, let's say, an abortion service outside of the state of Texas, they are rattling the saber, legally speaking that if you were to come back to Texas, that they're going to try and prosecute you for a crime that exists that happened outside of their state, right perimeter. California is doing the same thing now about guns, they actually took the Texas law and made it identical saying that if you do something that would have been illegal with a firearm as in purchase, or acquire or something like that, outside of the state of California, they're going to try to do the same thing. I'm not trying to converge the two, it's just interesting to see how rights whatever you want to think of that are attacked in different ways from different states, regardless of what that is. And I'm not making them on equal level. I'm not saying that this is more important, obviously, reproductive rights and bodily autonomy, transcend California's law about going to buy something in Arizona, I'm just saying it's interesting to see these politicians use similar tactics. So I hope that no one misunderstands that I'm making these equal footing

Stephen Bradford Long 12:17
Yeah, that you aren't making a false equivalence, you're just pointing I'm not.

Karl Kasarda 12:22
Right, I'm just saying it's interesting, the tactics are the same. But here's the thing. So let's say you're using a menstruation tracking app. And that app shows that there's a break in the normal cycle. And then you go to another state to get a service performed and come back. And then the app that you continue to use, again shows a return to a normal cycle, in a place like Texas, or who knows where else in this world, there's a pretty good chance that if they were to come if they really wanted to take where they say they want to, that they would go to your provider of your application, probably send them a a data request, which there's a very good chance that almost any of these corporations will surrender to such a request under the fear of prosecution at a nation state level, and then surrender this data to them, and would use that data potentially against you in a criminal case, to prove their case that you did something out of state that was illegal in your state. And so what this is, is you're leaking data, metadata that's outside of your control. Not only on that, but that's a very good app example. And that sort of stuff can be weaponized against you when you want to talk about at a state level, or even nation state level. And that's only one example thereof. And so what that does is it starts to teach us in this one example, that if you want to use things that are going to have information in them, that you may fear could be used against you whether or not there's legitimacy in that just that you think that there's a chance that they could weaponize it. The only way you can use such a thing safely is where you retain control and possession of the data and no one else does. And the answers to that are physical control. For example, the data only stays on the device that you have constant ownership and control over or the better answer or maybe both together is physical control and or encryption control. That means that the persons or people that store your data, have no access to your data, because you've encrypted it before they got it. Does that make sense?

Stephen Bradford Long 14:16
Yes, that makes complete sense. So best ways to stay safe a make sure that you have physical control over over the device. So like a device that doesn't connect to any network is what I'm hearing you say? Well, I'm not saying or even like, or even just in a notebook, a thing that won't connect to, you know, my, my notebook is not going to connect to the internet and upload all that data is is that what you're saying?

Karl Kasarda 14:44
That's true. So here's the thing. There's lots of places we can go with this. But so, so many of these apps that we found to be incredibly convenient, especially things that are free and I put that in air quotes, like Facebook is theoretically free, but we've all heard the phrase Facebook isn't free. You're the product right? Right. So if if something is provided to you as a free service, especially maybe one of these tracking apps, there's nothing free about that there's something they're getting out of you that makes it viable for them to provide you that service. It might be that they're advertising in the app, it might be that they're selling your data, or using your data in aggregate data analysis, to produce some sort of income for the corporation, very few corporations are going to provide you an app like that out of altruism. So when you're providing them that data, you don't know what they're doing with it. And I will tell you that when you look at, for example, Terms of Service, which are these legalese 75 pages of documents that you're supposed to read before you accept an approval to use an app, they don't even if that app, even if they say they're doing nothing of the sort, do not trust any of these corporations, because the law of physics of aggregate data is that it will always be abused.

Stephen Bradford Long 15:53
Yeah, it's like app, absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's like the bigger the bigger the power, the more likely it is to be abused. Um,

Karl Kasarda 16:03
let me answer your question there. So I'm not necessarily saying that you shouldn't have something that has internet connectivity or network connectivity. But when you use that's a good lesson there. Is this free? And if it is free, why is it free? And what does that mean to me and the security of my data. And even if I'm paying for an app doesn't mean that a corporation won't find itself in a situation where it will probably not decide in your favor, I can tell you from a company I worked at when I was doing information security architecture, there was more than it was a company that did medical health care insurance. And one of the calls I was on and this is not an exaggeration. There was a one of the corporates brought up the exact statement of what's more expensive, actually protecting this data, or just dealing with the lawsuits when they come in. Oh, my God, this is how these things work. Yeah. Horrifying, right? So imagine that you're using one of these tracking apps and the nation state decides, or Texas decides, yeah, we're going after these people. And there's a huge repository of data in there. How much do you trust the corporate person somewhere in that organization, to not break in their favor versus yours?

Stephen Bradford Long 17:15
Right. So you're basically entrusting your life to self interested corporations, you're basically trusting your data and your legal status as a citizen to gigantic self interested corporations that do not have your best interest in heart? And they will they have no need to defend your interests? If it if it will suit their purposes? In other words,

Karl Kasarda 17:45
yeah, I would say that there. I mean, some of these corporations are absolutely immoral. We know that, right? I said, the vast majority are amoral, they don't really care, as long as there's money at the end of the game, and they're not going to get in trouble doing it. So if there's money in protecting your data, well, that's what they'd be doing. But chances are the money is going to be and just giving it up, because it's much safer route to go. Is it possible

Stephen Bradford Long 18:05
also, that over time, people have just been leaking data that now might be legal, but might in the future be illegal? And and so, you know, like, like conversations on Facebook chat, or, you know, what have you, you know, stuff like those apps, like those minstrel apps, where, at the time, it's it's perfectly quotidian, and safe and normal, but there can be a turn down the road politically, where suddenly you have this gigantic digital trail of being a criminal. Is that, like, how far reaching is that in other, I guess, is what I'm trying to ask.

Karl Kasarda 18:52
I fear, I don't want to make this sound like a like, I understand our conversation here. And maybe we'll get more into it at the end about things people can do to help protect themselves, which I think was the question you asked him, I didn't mean to go down the track. But the reality is, is that and I have a pretty grim view on this, to be completely honest with you. We have so long allowed this to happen without even really necessarily realizing what was going on, that it's almost impossible to completely backtrack to the damage we've done to ourselves, not just as individuals, but as a societal whole in terms of our privacy and online security. So what you're asking there is can they will they or have they or will they at some point in the future? retroactively apply things that maybe happened in 2013 to criminalize you in 2023? I would say we are there are instances in which there's already indications of that happening. And I would say that I we are probably very close to that being a stark reality. So and that's the problem where that's what I said earlier where the tool becomes a trap. Initially, this was all fun and games using this thing and hey, look, this is my meal I'm doing here's where I'm hanging out or, or whatever. You posted. I'm sure there are people in the audience that not myself, but maybe it's posted about while those psychedelic mushrooms are great last Wednesday. Seriously, right? Because right, right, right. Because amongst your friends and all the people that you're with that that's not considered a thing. Federally, that's a crime. Will that be used against you someday? Potentially? Yes. And so your first step in terms of proactive caution, is don't do that stuff anymore. I'm not talking about the mushrooms even I'm talking about stop publishing the private parts of your life to the internet at all. Whether it's Instagram, or Facebook or Twitter, have a conversation? Sure. Be there and have friends. Maybe because remember, guilt by association is an interesting thing to get into too. But do not be posting anything that you wouldn't necessarily talk to mom about at the local coffee shop amongst listening ears to the internet.

Stephen Bradford Long 20:55
Yeah, absolutely. So while we're talking kind of big picture, and theoretical, you know, what is the what have we lost in terms of our privacy? And why is that a big deal? Because I think there are a lot of people out there for whom the exchange of data for products has just felt like a net positive. Right? I think there are a lot of people for whom it's just the new world we live in, and it's fine. Well, so what in your view, big picture? What has been lost? What? Because listening to your talk, it really sounds like, in your view, there is something essentially human that is being that is under assault, what, what is that? What is at risk? What is being taken from us? And why does it matter? Yeah, that's

Karl Kasarda 21:55
a great question. So like, you're right. So like, there's, there's a benefit sometimes to some of these targeted advertisements and algorithms that help us it's this is, this is the strange thing about things in this world that are greatly destructive, but sometimes bring positive things somehow along, like wandering one example, in the real world is gentrification, you know, maybe it's maybe it's nice that when I go outside my front door, that the chance of me being shanked is lesser, and I, but at the same time, I can also get a pizza delivered. But I've also probably seen a situation in which now the neighborhood I live in is no longer economically feasible to people who could have lived there or afford to even have a home, or like the destruction of our cultural identity in certain neighborhoods. So like, there's that double edged sword again, and when it comes to this digital environment, it's a similar thing. Sure, targeted advertisements, and being made aware of things that you're interested in is a nice positive reality. But I do feel and I think to the core of your question is that there's something basically fundamentally human, about being able to and humanly required to be able to have a safe space, that's yours, that doesn't feel like someone's watching everything you do. That kind of privacy about whether our lives in general, or these parts of our lives, were things that were just the expected norm. Not that long ago, we're talking a few decades before then we were only a couple of decades into this level of data collection. And we don't really understand the psychological damage that it's causing to our health and happiness. I think we're starting to understand the psychological psychological damage of some of the data flood of social media that we get we I mean, we have the phrase Doom scrolling, right. But the fact that you can't just be you, without necessarily observing I, or the idea that our social constructs are so much online versus offline, and therefore not not playing on the online Island, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram means that you've been isolated or feel isolated, when you decide, I no longer want to give these corporations my data. So in terms of, we've lost an element of inter human personal reaction in the real space. And I know that sounds kind of blurry. But I think there's truth to this from a technical perspective, and replaced it with an online space, which in some ways, has been very positive for like, for example, TSD, we get to have friends and across the world that we wouldn't have had otherwise. But in the process of doing that, we are surrendering unless we're very careful. And it's very difficult to be careful without surrendering our privacy in the process. And I think that's a huge, large loss for humanity as being

Stephen Bradford Long 24:30
you know, yeah, I completely agree with all of that. And, you know, I try not to sound too much like a boomer when I talk about this shit, a Doomer. A do Miranda, Boomer, I'm very much both a Doomer and a boomer when it comes to this stuff, and I think that the the cultural and psychological and developmental Havoc caused by these big digital systems are still very new. And we don't know yet what the toll will be. We don't know yet what the rap sheet is going to be. And I want to point everyone to an article that Jonathan Hite wrote, who's one of my intellectual heroes, he wrote an article in The Atlantic called why the past 10 years have been uniquely stupid or something like that. And, and I will link it in the show notes. And, you know, I don't agree with everything that he that he states, but basically what what he talks about, as he, he demonstrates the direct line between these big digital systems and the collapse of mental health and social well being. And he Jort He's a social psychologist, and he draws this direct line, I think pretty persuasively from things like the rise of Instagram, to suicide among teen girls, and, and, you know, epidemic levels of, of mental illness among teenagers, and that kind of stuff, and then just kind of global lack of well being, collectively. And he traces it really closely to that, and in a very persuasive way. Yeah, so I agree with everything that you just said, and, you know, listening to you talk it, it makes me think about how when I am in desperate need of something, it isn't my friends online who come to my aid, it's my kind of Normie Christian friend down the street. It's those real relationships, it's, it's those in person, meat, space, grass, touching relationships, where, when something goes really wrong in my life, those are the people who are by my side. And when we upload all of our relationships, to a digital space that is mediated by creepy, third person, corporations that do not have our interests in mind. That is a profound form of alienation. And the number of people I talked to who told me that they just don't have in person friends. And I'm I, some of my best friends are online. You know, some of my dearest closest friends are over the internet. And I have never met them in person. So I'm not dissing online friendships, right, but But it's also important to have those in person relationships that aren't mediated by big third party creepy industries.

Karl Kasarda 27:48
No, totally. And so like, I'm not trying to say that we shouldn't have an online community and friends, that's a very valuable thing. And we've absolutely, yeah, and that can be a lovely, wonderful, rewarding thing. I do think you need the other. You cannot exclude the other as a result of that, though. That's, I think, what I think we're on the same page in that regard, definitely. Because there's, there's, there's a humanity there. And so like when we want to talk about having a truly private conversation, it doesn't have to be private, because it's illicit, but doesn't have to be private, because it's about something that we're worried about even the nation state knowing about our Facebook knowing about per se, sometimes things should just be private, because it's a private conversation between you and some of the person you're close to that just is between you two, and doing that on an online network, quite honestly, there's just no getting around this. Unless you're using an encrypted tool like signal or others which we can get to, you are giving that data and information to Facebook, and that includes like Facebook Messenger, let's say you're talking to your partner, and you're having a conversation about just your your relationship, but or even a loving one or intimacy, you are giving that information on Facebook, you just are. And they're going to use that and build off of it. And they do that in aggregate. So having this is we're getting back to that place where you can be in a place where you're just you without something watching, the best place you can do that is somewhere where there's not a camera, or a cell phone sitting in a room that you enjoy with someone that you care about talking. That's privacy right there. And that's about the last place you can find it anymore.

Stephen Bradford Long 29:18
Yeah. Even writing in a hand or just writing in a hand written journal, like analog journal, to burn it after you're done. Yeah, exactly. So let's get into those. Those practical things that people can do. So let's just start broad and simple. If there were one thing and people did nothing else, if there was one thing that people could do to feel more secure online to be safer online, what would that one thing do like one thing that people could do? Today that thing that they could do tonight when they get home from work, what would that thing be?

Karl Kasarda 30:04
There are I'm going to you ask for one, but I'm going to give you two because I have to perfect. The first thing you do is is look at an investigate using a proper password manager for all of your online account security. Okay, this is I know that that doesn't feel like privacy. But it matters. Because right now, I can't tell you how many people I know that even in there, that should be technically savvy are still using three passwords for like 70 things on the internet. This is intrinsically dangerous, very dangerous. And what you want to do is have a situation in which if someone were to threaten you in every possible way to divulge your password to your personal information, if you don't know it, you can't give it. And the way to do that is with a password manager that has proper encryption tools around it. There's a number of them out there, I happen to like LastPass, there's another one called one pass, you could do it. If you want to store your data locally only on your machine, there's a thing called key pass or things like that. But what it is, is there's a single passphrase that should be very strong. But once you use that single press passphrase to open up your password manager, every password for everything you log into, after that should be created by and maintained by that encrypted repository. And you don't even know the password. You don't even know the password yourself. You literally cut and paste it or use an app to log into things. And if someone demanded your password for Facebook, for example, you can't provide it you're like, I don't know, I don't even know what it is. That is not privacy, per se. But that is a huge jump in security to make sure that someone isn't getting into your data. That isn't you,

Stephen Bradford Long 31:38
right. So also what do you mean when you say encryption, so a lot of people are going to be listening to this and be like, I don't know what the fuck he means when he says encryption. What is encryption? Okay, so, so like, what does LastPass do? So alright,

Karl Kasarda 31:51
so encryption, and there's bad encryption and good encryption, but to be to go as technically not too technical as I can get proper encryption is one in which you store what are called keys. So encryption is an algorithm that takes a bunch of data that is clear text, meaning something that you could read just by your normal eye, passes it through an algorithm using either a key or a passphrase, which is what's called a seed, which then generates then converts that clear text in aggregation will endow it with your passphrase are key in the algorithm to what's called ciphertext. So imagine, clear like a paragraph, you know. Hello, my name is Jason. And then you run it through encryption, and it becomes like a string of indecipherable text, right? That is encryption, and that indecipherable text. If you personally only know the passphrase, or only you own the key, it doesn't matter where that indecipherable text goes, no one can read what's in it, you've containerized your private data in a way that even if that data was stored on the public wall of the local bathroom, it doesn't matter. No one knows what's in it.

Stephen Bradford Long 33:00
And it actually really unbreakable Is it is it truly? Is that true security.

Karl Kasarda 33:07
There's no such thing as unbreakable encryption. What it is, is encryption is strong enough that even the best computer in the world trying to brute force, it can't get into it in the duration of time that the data matters. So let me explain. That's called bid strings. And this gets super technical, right, but the bid strength and the quality of your key or passphrase, for example, you would not want to encrypt your data with the passphrase dog. That's about it, that's a brute force attack would get to dog real fast. And I can explain brute force if you want to get there. But you will, you want to use a really good password or key for your encrypted data. But if you're using a proper algorithm and things like LastPass actually do, they use really strong encryption that is designed in a way that they don't have the keys to the data, your passphrase is the key. And only your app with the proper passphrase can unlock the data, they can't LastPass looks at a block of information, they cannot see what's in it. Now if someone were to take that data, and then try to brute force into it. If they brute force, meaning, what they do is run essentially a hard piece of software that just keeps trying to get into it. There's either a vulnerability in the strength of the encryption, or your passphrase is too weak. That's the way they would get in but if you have a good key or a good passphrase, and a good algorithm, which LastPass on others use in the amount of time it's going to take to get into the data, you won't care anymore, because you probably won't be around by the time the computers are good enough to break it.

Stephen Bradford Long 34:33
Got it. So when you say in terms of it's a matter of duration, you don't mean in terms of hours like they're sitting the hacker is sitting there gradually figuring it out. And you mean you mean in terms of years?

Karl Kasarda 34:47
Yes, I

Stephen Bradford Long 34:48
do. Got it. Okay.

Karl Kasarda 34:50
So unless you do something really silly, like use dog as a password, which might actually you know, someone could breach that quite quickly, because there's something gets really complex but it's called a rainbow attack. Essentially, when you attack a password with every known word in the known dictionary of every language, computers can do that very fast. So this is why you see requirements were passed, like passwords to be random. And to use characters that are not normal text, like use three numbers and you know, an extended out, like use an exclamation point or an app symbol. The reason you're doing those, you're adding what's called entropy and strength, your password, which means that it's much harder to brute force it, because a standard dictionary attack won't do

Stephen Bradford Long 35:29
it. Hmm. Yeah, that's really interesting. Not trying to get too complex. None of that makes sense. No, that's, yeah, no, that makes complete sense. So what

Karl Kasarda 35:37
I mean by that, so if you have a proper password, and you get when someone gets a hold of your data, and they try to brute force into it, it might take 20 years to get into that. And that's with dedicated big resources. So we'll 20 years from now. So the encryption we use now, like decades from now is going to be easily crackable. Probably. But again, I don't care anymore. Right. So that's, yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 35:59
right. Right. Right, that that makes complete sense. And, okay, so that's number one. Yes, that was

Karl Kasarda 36:05
the other part of your question, which was about. The first part was we were going with that the second part was what's the next thing a person can do in regards to privacy? First of all, the first easy win we already mentioned earlier, don't upload every element of your life all the time, quite honestly, as much as it's fun and compelling. To put up stuff about everything you're doing with every day, my recommendation is don't as well as another good thing to do is don't do don't upload things full of faces of people you know, or don't know, or tag people in photos unless they're willing to be tagged, those kinds of associations are built. And those are associations that will be used against your privacy, so just don't, but another thing, another

Stephen Bradford Long 36:43
thing, let's let's pause on that actually, be because I so when you tag someone, you're you're basically merging your data with that person's and suddenly there are there's all kinds of new information that can arise from that. Am I right about that?

Karl Kasarda 37:00
Absolutely. You're essentially combining social networks of one person and the other together immediately in one trainee. Drink? Stroke.

Stephen Bradford Long 37:09
Right? Yeah. So so this is really also a matter of consent and autonomy. Like don't tag someone if they don't want to be fucking tagged. ask their permission first. Because it it really is like a matter of bodily autonomy, almost, you know that that good third tenet stuff, you know, expanding that to, to, you know, personal autonomy, informationally as well?

Karl Kasarda 37:35
Absolutely. So let me explain that goes two ways, right. So posting a picture, let's say a poster picture of you and a bunch of friends hanging out last night having coffee. And you post that without necessarily knowing that three of those friends would want their photo op. Even if you don't tag them, there's two different things going on one, if they have any sort of social media presence ever, the reality is on the back end, the facial recognition stuff happens automatically. And you've now given Facebook connections between you and everyone in that photo in one snap of the finger. The other thing is, if you tag them, you haven't Facebook can already do it, because they're going to use facial recognition to do that. But if you tag them, you've made it possible now for other people who might be the neighbor down the street, looking at your profile. Now knowing who you're associated with, with just a tag. So there's two different levels to this, the facial recognition happens automatically, but that's on the back end, that won't help the weirdo down the street, do what he's going to do, or they're going to do. But if you tag that person, now the person down the street that seeing that photo can now know that you're associated with whoever it was you tagged. And that kind of stuff is a leak that happens a lot. And that's a sample that's an example of where pseudonyms or aliases break down real fast, because it only takes one photo, or one tag to associate your real identity and your pseudonym in one photo, and then it's broken forever.

Stephen Bradford Long 38:56
Right? Right, right, right. Okay, so, so far, we have two things, which is use a password manager, and don't overshare on the internet. And that includes not tagging others. So what's what's the next thing that people can do?

Karl Kasarda 39:13
Yep. The other thing I'd like to throw out there, and this one's always contentious amongst super technical people, but I really recommend this particular tool. It's gaining popularity. Now. There's others but the really one I still recommend is called signal. Signal is an app you can install on an iPhone on Android on Windows operating system on Linux, on Mac OS. And what it is is a properly designed end to end encrypted texting replacement tool. So instead of chatting with your friends on Facebook Messenger, and giving Facebook all the data that's in those conversations, all of it, it or using iMessage and giving all of the information in your messages to Apple or using something like or pick another one and giving it to Corporation X, Y or Z signal being encrypted end to end means that the data is encrypted on your device. It's encrypted in transit and decrypted on the device you're sending it to, meaning that no one in the middle no third party, regardless of its AT and T, Verizon, Cox Cable, or whoever can see what you're talking about to your friends or party or friends, by just simply using signal as a messenger replacement tool.

Stephen Bradford Long 40:22
I'm downloading it right now as we speak.

Karl Kasarda 40:26
Another thing you can do with signal is that if you're having particularly spicy conversations with someone, you can have a conversation to have a time to expire on everything you're talking about. And this is one of the most valuable parts. Let's say there's something you're talking about that you are a little worried about someday, like maybe Maybe it's about your menstruation cycle is just an example we used earlier, you don't want that data to stay in your chat forever. So what you can do with signal is say set my conversations to expire in a week. And all of your information and all your chats will just self delete properly out of that chat conversation. And let's say for some reason, the state of Texas gets a hold of your phone and somehow forces you to unlock and it goes into your signal chat. Well, that conversation from 1.5 weeks ago, isn't there anymore for them to even look at. Great,

Stephen Bradford Long 41:17
amazing. That's data hygiene. Okay, so using a platform like signal I just downloaded it. And then what about while you're talking, you're bringing up chat platforms? What's your take on kind of workspace or gaming chat platforms like discord or slack? I assume that those are also intensely insecure. And people just live on on there, like I live on there. What? What's your take on on apps like that,

Karl Kasarda 41:54
they're all Well, each each app has to be discussed directly in and of itself. Discord is very insecure as a platform, it has a lot of problems from authentications perspective, from the ability to impersonate other users on the platform while you're there. In fact, I don't know if you've ever seen this in discord, you can simply go into the the editor mode, and you can actually change text on your screen and take screenshots to make it look like someone said something they didn't. Oh, yeah, yep, I'm sure you've seen it. It's happened to me, it happened others Discord is very dangerous in that regard. Slack tends to be a little better. Okay. But either one of those platforms are things that I think are worth considering from the perspective of, I would not discuss anything in discord or slack, that I wouldn't be concerned about talking about, again, in a coffee shop with someone sitting next by next door listening to it, okay. So like, if you're going to have a conversation that you think is of concern, you probably wouldn't sit at a coffee shop. But let's just I'm just gonna throw this example out there with a cop one table over talking about it with them to listen to divert the saying that that's an authority in the government, right? So if you're going to if that's if you're like, Gee, I wouldn't do that at the coffee shop with that person sitting next to me. You shouldn't do it in Slack or discord either. But that goes for everything on the internet, unless you really know what you're doing with proper encryption signal helps. But that's you can do better even than that.

Stephen Bradford Long 43:21
Awesome. So we have signal don't overshare and use a password manager. What about what about a VPN? So our VPN safe I got a bit spooked over VPN is because the big one ExpressVPN was like, apparently run by, by, you know, like sketchy criminals or something.

Karl Kasarda 43:45
Yeah, so here's the thing that's interesting about VPN is when you channel your data through a third party, you're tunneling it through a third party. So that means that if you don't trust that the company that's providing you the service for that third party data transit, meaning you are anytime you're sending data that you don't personally encrypt, and someone else decrypts on the other side, it means that someone in the middle can read it. Okay. So when you're on a VPN provider, unless you believe that VPN provider to be safe, you have to accept the fact that the VPN provider might be looking at the data in transit. So the other thing I like to think about when it comes to VPN providers, is a sports data storage in general, especially in the risks that we're seeing in the continental US is that it's not not a bad idea, to look at entities that are actually outside of the US. Okay, the reason for that, and this gets a little bit nation stating is that the reality is, is that if the US wanted to get into your data, if your data your provider was say owned in if your VPN provider was in, say, Switzerland, they now have an international issue to deal with In terms of getting into that information, but if they go to a VPN provider that's in, say, oh, Cisco a Texas, since there's such an easy target, that's run in Texas, there's a good chance they'll either be like, Oh, sure, we're totally complicit, here's everything, or they'll just fold under any legal threat. But so when it comes to VPNs, if you're gonna use a VPN service, and if people don't know what those are, we can explain why they exist. I tend to recommend proton VPN, and it's run in Switzerland. And that means your data, data logs are not in the US,

Stephen Bradford Long 45:31
you're going to have to trust someone at some point with your connections and the information that goes across them. I guess it's a question of, of who you are willing, what degree of trust you're willing to give to someone because it's going to be given, you're going to have to trust someone for good or for ill.

Karl Kasarda 45:52
Here's where VPNs are interesting. So VPNs are interesting in terms of masking your source, network identity. So what I mean by that is, so when you connect to a VPN, you're tunneling your traffic from, let's say, you're sitting in, in Utah, and you connect to the VPN service and you tunnel your traffic through Switzerland, to go to a website, the website that you're going to is going to look going to seem as though you're coming out of Switzerland, from a geographic location and identity. However, a VPN does not protect you against your personal privacy about what you're tunneling there with. So let's say you connect to Facebook, through a VPN from Switzerland. But you're logged into Facebook, it doesn't matter to Facebook, that you're coming out of Switzerland, that doesn't protect your privacy to what you're providing them Data Wise, all you're doing is masking your network location.

Stephen Bradford Long 46:46
Right. So it isn't in any way, like a complete cure all. You know, a lot of people talk about VPNs is like this. Well, this means that you can get away with anything online. No, no, not at all. It's a very limited kind of security.

Karl Kasarda 47:05
I like to think of VPNs of being a little more so unless you're getting real deep into this because you can and we can talk about that if you want. But VPNs provide provide the ability to do some cool stuff like get past Netflix, geographic filters, if you want to see a show that's no longer put in the US. Right? That's, that's just a fun, cool thing. Sure. But VPN providing privacy in regards to what we're talking about. doesn't do much. The the privacy is breached on the platform, not necessarily the network path. Hmm. So right, so the network path is interesting. Like if you're if you're involved in some deep stuff, and you want to mask your network location, VPN is done properly can be valuable. But for the kind of privacy worried about, like posting a picture on Facebook, that includes five other people's faces on it, a VPN doesn't do anything for you, or for that matter. If you're using your normal laptop, and connecting the VPN to Amazon or Google, there's cookies, there's authentication tokens, there's all this stuff going on in your web browser, for example, that does not get dealt with by VPN. So that entity and those entities you're connecting to, regardless of going through a VPN still know who you are.

Stephen Bradford Long 48:17
Yeah, it's so interesting. It's so fascinating. And the way I like to think about all of this is, think about your time online, as basically like the time you spend driving, you have to, you know, make sure that your car has oil and gas, you have to take it in periodically, you're going to have to spend some time and maybe even some money to make sure you're safe online. It's just part of like basic upkeep. And for I think for too long, we've seen the internet as kind of this free for all space that doesn't require any responsibility from us in turn, right? It's like this, this playground, where responsibility on our part is just non existent. And that's just not true. It's it's much more like owning and maintaining a car. And so you have like responsibility to yourself and others to stay safe. And to make sure that like you, your car isn't falling apart on the highway, like your tires aren't getting shredded, because you haven't changed them or whatever. So I think that that's a really good way to think about this. If you're on the internet, you're going to have to do basic maintenance to make sure that you are keeping yourself and others safe.

Karl Kasarda 49:41
Yeah, no, totally. And it's like the challenge of these conversations because they can go on for so long is that it's all about the level of risk you're willing to accept or the level of threat you think exists. Right. So we spoke earlier about the level of threat about the weird neighbor down the streets that hate Satanists. And then we talked about the level of threat of let's say a corporation, divulging your administration data. And then we talked about the level of threat of the large oligarchy of corporate entities like Facebook, Apple and Google aggregating data in a way that makes an image or understanding of who you are. Regardless, regardless of using an alias, those are all different threats. And then what you have to do is more and more difficult regarding how much you want to minimize each and every one of those individual threats. So as we said earlier, the weird neighbor down the street, probably will never figure out your Satanism unless you do something like post facial pictures on both your profiles, and then tag something or get tagged once. That's where that stuff gets leaked. But if you're worried about So, for example, the next step of the corporation having your information, two answers to that are don't give it to them, or make sure that it's encrypted in a way that if they have it, they can't use it. And if you're talking about, like being configured concerned, at the corporate slash nation state level, then you got to do a lot. So for example, let's say you never make a mistake between your signum and your real username on Facebook. But let's say you use that quick login feature where you pull down the menu and say, Okay, right now, I'm Jeff. But when I pull down the thing, I'm you know, basil, Bob, they know you're the same person Facebook does, right? So that's like, so you have to do something different to that point, if you want to mask your combined identity to the social network you're associated with. But of course, each and every one of these comes with a higher and higher level of difficulty.

Stephen Bradford Long 51:35
It just occurred to me another thing to ask you about. So there are websites like white pages, where people can literally like Google someone's name and their private information come up? How do you How is there a way to for for your information to not end up on pages like white pages?

Karl Kasarda 51:59
Not really, that that is a that is one of the the horses that got out of the crowd a long time ago. And that level of data aggregation is due to the irresponsibility of us as individuals, but more due to the irresponsibility of corporations and our own governments. Let me give you an example of that many state governments or even federal level of governments, stored all sorts of private information about things that they needed to, for example, background checks to do certain kinds of jobs or something. And instead of maintaining the data themselves, they ended up selling that data or storing that data on a third party. And part of the agreement. And this is true, was that it allowed them to have access to the data for marketing information, for example.

Stephen Bradford Long 52:43
Oh, God, so So DMV, so in other words, like voter registration, or DMV, or what have you made a deal with corporations to store the data. And part of that deal is that those corporations could use it for their own ends?

Karl Kasarda 52:59
They haven't all done that. But that is definitely something that has happened and will continue to happen. Yes.

Stephen Bradford Long 53:03
Okay. Jesus Christ.

Karl Kasarda 53:06
One of the weird thing about one of the ways to have less of that data out there is to never publish things with things. So for example, if you ever put up a website with your real name, and your phone number, that's there forever, you're never getting rid of it. But like, other silly stuff, that's the truth. And I'm, I'm a victim of this, like so many of us are, if you ever buy a home, if you have the ability to buy a home in this economy, but let's say you do, that stuff gets registered in public records. And that stuff lands up in all sorts of data aggregators. And that's where frequently you see that sort of stuff showing up when you do a search for a real name. And then suddenly getting address, phone number, all that stuff, all these records are all aggregated. And like I said earlier, the law of data aggregation and law of data physics is that the more data aggregated, the more it'll get breached. It's just how it works. So for example, if you if I were to ever buy a property again, ever someday in my life, I wouldn't buy it under my real name, I buy it under a trust, right. But that's now you got to really pregame to not make a mistake that will burn you later. So some of those sites, you can go and requisition or request that they remove the data. Historically, most of them don't really care. And getting that stuff gone is damn near impossible.

Stephen Bradford Long 54:20
Wow. Yeah. So basically, it all goes back to don't share on the internet. And then there's some and then like you said, there's some stuff where it's like, the horse is already out of the barn. You can't you can't put it back in and yeah, cool. That's so let me say, yeah, yeah.

Karl Kasarda 54:41
Not great, is it? It's, so I grew up, like, I grew up pre Internet, and I was in the Hackerspace. And I had this great like, I had this huge, naive, like, optimism about where this was all going. I'm like, Oh my gosh, we're gonna have proper encryption. We're gonna have the ability to mock to democratize conversations of communications against across across the world, and with encryption, we're going to prove we're gonna blind nation states and corporations. Well, yeah, technically that was possible. The reality is, the convenience of websites that were designed by a guy who wanted to get laid in college became the norm. And we essentially all of us, myself included, fell victim to giving these less than optimal things, tons of information. And that's no longer recoverable, all we can do now is give them less moving forward. Now, the positive note, if there is a positive one, and I Gosh, hopefully we'll get there someday, is that a lot of the stuff that's leaking about us as our as us as individuals, whether it's our relationships, our your gender identity, or sexual preferences, our religious identity, pick one or or multiple, maybe we'll get to the place someday, where the Internet has breached privacy so badly, that everyone will just accept people for being people. Wow, we've got a long way to go.

Stephen Bradford Long 56:02
It reminds me of Robert A Heinlein novel The Puppet Masters where it's about like these aliens that these goofy aliens that that are on people's backs, and they are brain parasites. And in order to tell who has one of the brain parasites, the government decrees that every person must go around naked, and then society just gets used to, you know, like, everyone everywhere being naked all the time. So it's almost like that future.

Karl Kasarda 56:38
Maybe Maybe, I mean, we're not going to get there anytime soon. But if we did that might be maybe this really uncomfortable time, in terms of what we're experiencing is an evolutionary path towards privacy became becoming less relevant, because it doesn't matter anymore. But we're so far away from that reality isn't going to happen anytime soon. Another thing I'm going to throw out there, and I know this sounds kind of conspiratorial, but it's, it's real. If you really want privacy. Remember, I mentioned sitting in a room with a friend and just having a conversation without cameras. It also means not your cell phone. These things are depending on what you want. Here's a great example, I'm kind of jumping around. You can use Facebook is such a good target. You can use Facebook with the web browser on your cell phone and never install the app. Right? When you install the app, that app does a lot of stuff. Right? If it had access to data on your phone that the web browser would not have necessarily had. And so there's people that are wondering how much the cell phones listen, and how much they use it for targeted marketing and such. And there seems to be some creepy data seeming to indicate there's some reality to that. But like, I don't know if you've ever noticed this, if you have the Facebook app on your phone, and you add someone's phone number that you've met, just because you met them into your normal phone context, you suddenly go into Facebook, and it goes, here's a friend recommendation and it gives you like their entire profile. Yeah, that's because it's digging into your phone's data. So here's another good thing that anyone can do this privacy conscious, don't use the apps if you can use the browser instead.

Stephen Bradford Long 58:09
Yeah, that's good to know. I mean, I don't use the apps because I'm a fucking Boomer. And so I just do everything in browser, on my phone. So

Karl Kasarda 58:19
much safer thing to do, the browser tends to have more security measures and what's called sandboxing from the rest of your phone's dataset. So, but like so like, you install the app, and they want you to install the app, because it makes it they'll intentionally make it even worse and have a worst experience to use the browser, the app will probably be cleaner, smoother and work better. But the reason they do that is because they're trying to get you to use it because they want to harvest data off your phone. And harvesting data off your phone could be GPS coordinates, call records, not so the call itself a call records, maybe some auditory stuff being caught in the background, other apps, you're using that stuff. That's what these companies are all about aggregating that data. That's how they make their money. So not installing the app will help. And if you really want to really private conversation, Chuck the phone and somewhere else.

Stephen Bradford Long 59:08
One thing that I that we might want to touch on real fast, you keep using the word aggregating. I'm not sure a lot of people understand the significance of that word, the way in which a mass amount of data, massive amounts of data, untold amounts of data at population levels, how that gives corporations insights into society and into you as an individual. This isn't just about them, you know, knowing where you went to, you know, them knowing where you went to breakfast this morning, you know that this isn't about that it. It's about being able to store and analyze oceans of data in a way Now that they are so that they are able to make predictions about you so, and societally, so it's almost like they, they have a voodoo doll of you. And they know what that voodoo doll is going to do every piece of data because of how that data interacts with all the with the rest of the data, and I'm not, I'm not a data person, I'm this. This is my very unsophisticated math, Britain, non math brain talking about this. So correct me if I'm wrong about anything, but the term aggregating the what that means is like, data on a mass scale, that is so huge that it allows an extraordinary level of analysis where you're they basically have a model of you, these corporations have a have a model of of you and what you're able to do, what you're going to do what you like what you don't like, right, am I right about that, under percent,

Karl Kasarda 1:00:57
that level of accuracy that they're starting to achieve with that level of data aggregation has made it possible in certain instances where they've experimented with shipping products to people before they ordered it? And having a pretty low return rate. Wow. So So So I mean, we all like to think of ourselves as individuals. And of course we are, but in many ways, we're not we all follow patterns like so if you were to aggregate data. So here's an example. You bought a book off Amazon, about bought an Aleister Crowley book on Amazon, and then you watched you rented Hail Satan question mark from another place, and you drove to the local golf bar, and your phone's GPS coordinates show where you're at. And then you tagged a few friends on your Facebook while you were there. They probably now know that you are if not Satanists, you're Satan adjacent and they know some of your friends and they know your local circle. That's one example of data aggregation from multiple different sources that will give an image of who you are as a person.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:01:55
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I think a lot of this isn't very intuitive for people. But data really, is that powerful when it's big enough, and when there are analytical tools powerful enough to to kind of siphon through it. It sounds

Karl Kasarda 1:02:19
so creepy, but we really do. And like we all we've always heard the phrase, what like 1984 and all that, like, you know, we live in a surveillance state. Yep. I would say we do live in a surveillance state. But when I say the word state, I don't mean state as in like a government entity. We live in a surveillance state as a state of being. Yes, it's currently it's all of that together. And most of its corporate. Yeah, most of its surveillance capitalism

Stephen Bradford Long 1:02:42
it surveyed it is it isn't a surveillance state in terms of government, it says it's surveillance capitalism.

Karl Kasarda 1:02:48
Correct. And so we totally, that's how I agree. And so these companies are making their money, they'll call it they'll call it targeted marketing, but that targeted marketing is a product of surveillance. Right? Right. Right. And that exists in every way. And so and these devices that we now are very much dependent upon in our pocket that gives us to work and communication and all these apps are a are a surveillance tool. And you know, it'd be hard to not exist in this world anymore without one. But you know, what you're giving up when you put that in your pocket and walk down the street it is giving it is beaconing. A lot of stuff. I know that sounds so I'm not trying to sound super dark.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:03:30
But no, no, it's true. It's true. And it's important that people you know that we all confront this reality, because it's the reality we're living in.

Karl Kasarda 1:03:39
It is and it's like, so this is where the hacker mindset came from. Some of this sounds like we'll just become become a person that just just avoids technology, I'm not going to have these things, I'm not going to do it. First of all, that won't necessarily fix the problem. Because the people around you are leaking data about YouTube. They just are. The cameras on the street are doing facial recognition. When a cop car drives down the street, the majority of them now, if not all of them, do OCR optical character recognition of every license plate they drive by, and then uploads that data to their computer, their laptop sitting next to them. So they know right, when they drive by you, if there's something they should be pulling you over for maybe they just because they don't like the way you look. But like, that's all happening real time on this computer next to them, including maybe your name and other information, like just by driving down the street. So yeah, that's real. And so in a world where that's the case. We're not We're not turning this back. So the better answer from from my opinion from a hacker perspective, like in that world, is, if you don't own the technology, it will own you. So the best thing we can do is become proficient at owning the technology we use to use it to the best of our ability to our benefit, and to the least of their benefit.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:04:54
Hmm, is part of that just kind of developing good Would hygiene on a on like, a societal level like, well, if everyone used password, you know, password apps and if everyone used apps like signal is part of the issue, then just creating a culture of being aware of security?

Karl Kasarda 1:05:22
I think so. And the more of us that do this and the more of us like so. Like, for example, if just think about this, there's, again, social media, but Facebook is such a great example. If everyone tomorrow stopped it post it stopped posting personal information to Facebook, what would they do? Right? What could they market anymore? Right there donde there? So if we think about it from that perspective, the the more and more of us, that stopped providing them this free information, the more and more we're harming their ability to use it against us. Right, right. Right.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:05:53
Okay, so, so define personal information. So let's say for example, so last night, I posted a you know, I couldn't sleep I was up way too late. I was like, tossing and turning in bed at 4am. So, you know, like you do you get up you you get up and watch YouTube for a while, which makes it even worse. And so I posted to Twitter, some music, I was like, can't sleep, here's some music. And it was some, you know, Italian composer. With that, does that qualify to what do what counts as personal information? Because it seems like everything is personal. And from it. So like videos. So like if I share, so if I share like a picture of my new favorite Magic, the Gathering commander deck that I just got or whatever. That's that's still giving influence. So So to what degree art should we share or not share? What counts is personal? What's that line? Or is there even a clear line?

Karl Kasarda 1:06:51
I think it's up to the individual. But it's a very, I would think like, for example, we talked about this earlier, would you care about talking about that publicly in a coffee shop, but people hearing you, you probably wouldn't mind if someone next to you at a table heard about your new Magic the Gathering deck, right? Or that you happen to like this composer or this musical artists? Right, right. And you might even get them lean over and they're like, Hey, have you seen this person? That's like, that's Targeted Advertisement, then from the table next door. But it's again, it's like, it doesn't matter, because it's not something that matters.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:07:18
Whereas I wouldn't want to, you know, be at the coffee shop, next to a table full of Granny's and talking about how I was in a sex link being fisted or something.

Karl Kasarda 1:07:28
Right? That would probably be a more sensitive conversation that might have a reaction, right? Yes. Right. Exactly. I agree. That's, that's, it's up to the up to the individual it has to be regarding what they consider they're concerned about. But that's a great example. And that probably wouldn't be something you'd want them to hear next at the table. And

Stephen Bradford Long 1:07:45
so like, yeah, so sensitive stuff, like maybe kink play, or,

Karl Kasarda 1:07:50
or or sensitive stuff could be your religious identity, or it could be just your mental health state that day, perhaps like could be. I'm not saying you guys like it's subjective, right? But, but but just gotta remember that everything you put on any of these tools is public. Yep, it's just it is no different than if you leaned over and said, set it to the table next to you at the coffee shop. And I think we don't think of it that way. Because we think, Oh, I've got these 75 friends on my profile. And I have my thing set to friends only, which Oh, boy, that's another one. How many people just post everything and just have it set the public, you can just Google search. But like, that's another thing. If if you are going to use the social media, try to lock it down to your friend group. But you have 75 friends and we think, Well, I'm posting this only to my friends you are, but you're also posting it to all of the corporate backends that are listening to everything you just posted. So it is all of your friends. Plus the social media oligarchy. Don't forget that they're watching all of

Stephen Bradford Long 1:08:52
ya. Plus the spooky and visible manipulator behind the scenes.

Karl Kasarda 1:08:56
Exactly. The giant ear in the sky that never stops listening.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:09:00
Yeah, yeah. For people who want to know more about this, by the way, that particular aspect on social media. I really recommend Jaron Lanier is book 1010 arguments for deleting your social media accounts right now. And he does make 10 Very, very good arguments, but he he gets into all of these different levels of you know, like the the cultural alienation social alienation, the lack of autonomy just all of it he he hits on and he's you know, a legendary figure in in technology and data and whatnot. So so

Karl Kasarda 1:09:37
for me when I hear that I hear I get the point and I totally get the logic. But I also to me when I hear that like completely deleting yourself off of the network feels a little bit like Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber thing right out in the woods.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:09:50
Like that comparison. Yeah,

Karl Kasarda 1:09:52
because if you want to leave society, you go become that guy, right? That's not healthy either. So I think we have to find the middle ground where use these tools to your benefit. And everything and every instance in which you post something, think to yourself, is this benefiting me? Or them. And if it's benefiting you, then you have to make a, you know, risk benefit analysis, if it's worth your while, if that's what you need to do right now. And you realize that what you're giving them, then that's what you need to do right now. But using these tools, realizing that these tools are beneficial, but at the same time hostile is in my opinion better because I'd rather own the text and walk away from it. Because I don't want to live in a shed like to get Ted Kaczynski That sounds terrible.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:10:33
Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, this is, this is the challenge that I have struggled with, for as long as I've been a content creator, where and I'm sure you get this to where I feel like social media is such a double edged sword when it when it comes to content creation. It's like you're one of your greatest tools and your greatest assets. And I have been ruthlessly pilloried i It's been a source of just such anguish, simultaneously. And it's like a trying to find that balance of how much to share how much not to share how much to care about what people say about me online, how much not to care, like, it's, it's such a clusterfuck it, I think we're all like having to figure that out. But I agree with you that the key is to use the tools and to not let them use you. But that I don't know, that feels like wrestling a dragon or something.

Karl Kasarda 1:11:32
It probably is. But I don't think any alternative goes to a worse place. Like if we just surrender them, like walk away. First of all, we'd have to get everybody to do it. That's part of the problem. This is a this is an internet. I mean, this is a human problem now, right? It's not a US problem. It's like, it's like, workers rights isn't just an issue in a mine in Utah, the minute we do something there, it's also an issue for a miner in China. These people are being oppressed, regardless of what it's an intern, it's a human problem. And these, these tools are a human problem. So we're not at a point where there's enough of a tipping mass to just walk away and have the majority do that. So at the moment, walking away really is just becoming this is just isolation is dangerous in its own right. Yes,

Stephen Bradford Long 1:12:19
it's becoming the deranged militia men. Out in branch. Yeah.

Karl Kasarda 1:12:25
Why not use these things to your advantage? Right, like, so this is a personal fun thing for me. Like, I'll never watch YouTube without proper ad blockers because I don't want to make them $1. So is that a cool tool with good data on it that sometimes I want to consume? Yes. Do I want to make that corporate oligarchy? $1? While I do it, no, I do not. So I make it. So my personal rule is I won't watch this platform, unless I'm making sure I'm not making them any money. So that's using the tool, when not giving them a benefit from it.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:12:52
Awesome. Yeah, I really liked that approach, a kind of a middle ground. And it sounds like a lot of it just has to do with creating a culture of digital hygiene, because this isn't going to go away. And the more we are all able to practice, kind of those good safety hygiene habits like brushing your teeth every day. Basic stuff like that, then then it will make everything better.

Karl Kasarda 1:13:18
So the loopback I think the basic summary habit is use a password manager to protect your information and login so that you don't get hacked. Use a text messaging alternative that's properly encrypted, I recommend signal, that's where you should create your friend groups and have the conversation that you would want to have that you would have at your personal home. And then don't post anything to the corporate oligarchy that you wouldn't scream rather loudly at the local coffee shop, doing all of them, I don't violate anyone else's privacy by posting facial pictures or tagging them without their permission. If you do, even those four steps alone, could go a long way to making this better.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:13:55
Amazing. And, you know, I also want to end on this note, which is, I'm not having this conversation, to, to give a sense of doom. Or to say, you know, we're all we're all fucked and everything is going to be like a Mad Max hellscape or anything like that. No, no, no, no, no. Instead, this, you know, I think that the likelihood of how do I want to say this, it's a matter of preparing for the worst and remaining safe and and gaining a sense of autonomy and security, and protecting yourself in the meantime, while the world feels really out of control. That's why I'm having this conversation not to beam out the message that everything is hopeless. I don't believe that at all. We still have a lot to fight for, and we still have so much to to, you know, look forward to in this country, right and in the world. Instead, it is to just Be honest about the challenges that we're facing currently. And to not be naive about them and to develop, you know, just good habits and good habits and resiliency in the face of them. That's why I'm having this conversation right now.

Karl Kasarda 1:15:15
I love that. And I think the other thing we should remember is that we're having this conversation right now, because we met through the internet and through other circles that are created partially, or mostly because these tools enabled it right. And so all of our friends, circles and worlds are so much combined. In that regard, we used to hear people talk about the internet in real life, well, those are no longer differentiating, they are one in the same the internet is omnipresent, as is the real space, it's all one in the same. And so we just need to think about it that way and not think that they are differentiated, and leverage these tools to our benefit, and less to the benefit of the corporates. And in that regard. They do bring a lot of amazing magical things, and the ability to make friends across the world and communicate across the world and provide mutual aid in ways that we never could before we just have to use them. Right?

Stephen Bradford Long 1:16:00
Absolutely. Do you have any final thoughts? Before we wrap up?

Karl Kasarda 1:16:08
No, not really. I just don't want anyone to come away from this, like you said about feeling like Doom or that there's no escape. Anything it's like, it's like when they say that whole thing about you know, if you're a smoker and stop smoking today, the health benefits start three hours later, exactly. Some of these things right now, you can never undo the past. Just that's what it is. But we can anything you can do. Now, any one of those steps to move forward today means you're going to have a better, healthier data hygiene tomorrow. So if you start today, you're making an improvement. And all of us that do that will make this a better world in the long run. So this isn't Doom, it's like well, okay, we now expect and understand the reality we're facing. What can we do better tomorrow? And that's always all we can do.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:16:50
Beautiful. And for people who want to find some of your content, where can they do that?

Karl Kasarda 1:16:55
Well, if they want to watch my personal work you can find me at in range.tv It's just a website, but it'll bring you to all of my decentralized distribution points. If you're interested in like I said, firearms or civil rights or the convergence thereof. Um, that's a unique channel in my work personally in that regard. Or you can always get a hold of me at TST as well if you remember their

Stephen Bradford Long 1:17:16
beautiful. Well, this has been a great conversation. Thank you so much for your time.

Karl Kasarda 1:17:21
Thank you for having me. It's been really fascinating conversation. I hope people appreciate it.

Stephen Bradford Long 1:17:25
Yeah, I'm sure they will. And you're welcome back anytime. This has been great. I'll be awesome. Thanks. Well, that is it for this show. The music is by eleventy seven. The theme song is called Wild you can find it on Apple Music Spotify, or wherever you listen to music This show is written, produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long. It is a production of rock candy recordings and it is supported by my patrons, as always Hail Satan. And thanks for listening

Podcasts/Sacred Tension-STHowNotToBeAfraid

2022-10-11T08:06:09Z

Maintenance script: Transcription of Sacred Tension podcast audio.

STHowNotToBeAfraid
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, story, life, jordan peterson, called, community, world, cbt, men, listening, plate, person, friend, culture, piece, means, storytellers, ceiling, conversation, jiminy cricket
SPEAKERS
Gareth Higgins, Stephen Bradford Long

Stephen Bradford Long 00:13
This is sacred tension, the podcast about the discipline of asking questions. My name is Steven Bradford long. And as always, I have to thank my patrons. They are my personal lords and saviors and I could not do the show without them. So for this week, I have to thank Sean Lena and Andrew, thank you so much. So for anyone who wants to join their number, go to patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long for $1 A month $5 A month you get extra content every single week, including the house of heretics podcast where my friend Timothy former Salvation Army officer turned Christian heretic and I talk about religion, Satanism, philosophy, news, all the or whatever else. We you know, whatever else strikes our fancy and it is a live show patrons are invited to join us every Wednesday morning. It is a lot of fun. So if that is interesting to you, then please become a patron and it ensures the long life of the show and my writing. There are other ways to support the show. However, one of the best ways is to just leave five stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts that tells our digital overlords that the show is worth sharing with others and also please subscribe to my newsletter. If you enjoy sacred tension then you will certainly enjoy my blog and newsletter. Just go to Steven Bradford long.com There's a link in the show notes. Enter your email and you will get me in your inbox. It'll be like a you know horror slasher movie where I just keep reappearing in your life. Whether you want me or not. All right. With all of that out of the way, I am delighted to welcome my old friend Gareth Higgins to the show. How are you? not that old? Not that Oh, well. We've known each other since like 2014 Oh, I get it. I get the joke now. Okay.

Gareth Higgins 02:07
Older is the old oldest. No, I shouldn't old is not a pejorative Absolutely. People who fall into themselves sinking themselves and become wise sages with age. So

Stephen Bradford Long 02:18
yes. And you're definitely yeah, when you have one of those. You're not old either.

Gareth Higgins 02:23
You're 20 these days. That's like that's like an Elon,

Stephen Bradford Long 02:26
that is an eon ago. That's almost a decade ago. We've almost known each other for a decade. By the way. You have been described to me as a hot ginger teddy bear by someone Mercy who will who will not be named the you

Gareth Higgins 02:41
know, here's the thing. I welcome. I welcome all affirmation wherever it comes from. I think I think the beard color that I sport, I think would be the verb is actually Auburn rather than ginger. But cultural differences lead to people ascribing different different names. Uh huh. So I'll take the I'll take the ginger.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:08
Very good. Excellent. All right. So tell us some about who you are and what you do.

Gareth Higgins 03:11
I'm a hot Irish, ginger or Auburn, teddy bear.

Stephen Bradford Long 03:18
Which is all true. Yes.

Gareth Higgins 03:20
i Well, thanks for having me on. Again, I've been on with with you once before,

Stephen Bradford Long 03:26
you are one of our Yeley first guests.

Gareth Higgins 03:28
Yeah, I really value what you do on this show, I value your writing, I was reading my friend, it's hard to believe I was reading archive posts on your blog just a couple of weeks ago. You have a really, really wonderful post about how to have a healthy relationship with social media, and then another piece of Satanism and, and not being an ironic, Satanist. And I think your writing is wonderful. And really, thank you. Appreciate what you're doing and what you're trying to do. So I'm from Ireland. I live in North Carolina, much of the time I have been the beneficiary, the recipient of many mentors who have shared their wisdom and their lives with me and encouraged me and affirmed me and I guess, the way people often lead a response to tell us about yourself or who you are, what do we talk about our work? I don't really like to do that. Because I feel like it's all sort of mixed in together, Mike. My passions are about storytelling, and how to tell a story about who we are as humans, this moment in history, what we're here for on how to be and there's nothing original here. It's just listening to wiser people and then finding a maybe a different way to talk about it. And so the stories that I enjoy the most are the ones that come through cinema. which I've been obsessed with since I was a child. Because my parents introduced me to great movies when I was younger. And I'm involved in community work in the form of retreat gatherings where we bring small groups of people together to reflect on our own stories and how we can be of better service in the world and also discern our own needs. There's, there's, I think there's a problem that faces a lot of us in our culture, which is, you either become an individualistic individual who lives in competition with everybody else for the rest of your life. And because of a fear of scarcity, or an actual lived experience of scarcity, there's not much time or space leftover to imagine what you could do in service for others. Or you, you serve the world into your own martyrdom. So you just give and give and give and give and give. But you never discern your own needs or ask for help. I'm definitely not that kind of person. I'm, I'm asking for help all the time. I'm fortunate in that people taught me to ask for help. So we do these retreats, and we do small festivals. And I'm involved in what you might call transformative men's work, which is trying to help men and people who identify as male, to find the deeper levels of our own maturity, our own ancient wisdom and to heal from some of the wounds that particularly affect men in our culture that gets summarized and oversimplified as toxic masculinity involved in some work that tries to help transform that in me, and in other people, too. And I love having conversations. I love writing, I love walking by the water. And probably the thing that I love the most and love the most about my life is friendship, and being in encounters with people, even if I'm only friends with them for five minutes. Someone at the checkout someone I only meet once, that's how I met you at a checkout. And you were so welcoming, or people that I've been with and are and have been with me for decades and more friendship and encounter with other human beings is just the best thing. It's the best thing.

Stephen Bradford Long 07:12
I love that. I love that self introduction as a description of who you are and what you do. And so you brought up men, we might need to do another show about that. Because I'm trying to find people who that is not the topic of today's show, maybe we'll get into it. But I'm, I'm really interested in the state of men as a man, but also, as someone who works with a lot of men who interacts with a lot of men and trying to find people to discuss the challenges that men are experiencing without descending into weird, gross Red Pill stuff, right? And so we might, we might need to do a follow up conversation. Because the number of men who I meet who tell me that they just don't have friends, where that is just a fact of their life is staggering to me. So, you know, at work, I will train a lot of guys, and we'll start talking and one of the things that usually comes out during those conversations is oh, I don't have any friends. You know, I play video games. I I don't have any meaningful connection whatsoever with other people except maybe my girlfriend. So yeah, there's there's something wrong. There's there's something going very wrong with men.

Gareth Higgins 08:36
Yeah, yeah. And I know that, you know, if, of course, I'd be glad to come back and have another conversation about this. And there's other people who talk about it much better than I can. Let me just say two very brief things, if I'm if I may want. One is that it's it's pretty clear. It seems pretty clear that the friendless SNESs of men of many men, is one of the reasons why some communities are having a lot of success and attracting men that then end up not necessarily having the best impact on the world. Oh, yeah. No, that Absolutely. Because if a if a community will gather around you and meet your needs for connection, then it's almost secondary. What that community

Stephen Bradford Long 09:26
stands for are simple creatures. We need to be read. Yeah. And

Gareth Higgins 09:30
if nobody else is reaching out to you, that's so so that's that's one piece. The other piece is that it's connected to that is if the bar for entry to a common good oriented community or a more a community that respects the dignity and interdependence of all of all living beings, something like you and that's a very highfalutin phrase, but if the bar for entry is ideological purity, or you need to know that you think all the right things before you're allowed into the community. That's a problem too. And I think some of us who come from the more, we can use the word progressive world, and that's not a perfect term, one of the things we really need to examine at the moment is, are we making it too difficult for people to join our communities, because they haven't fully grasped some of the ideological shifts, or even some of the terminology or thinking the quote unquote, right thing to be allowed in. Before you get cancelled, there are a lot of people out there who want to do good and want to care for people and their people have compassion and respect. But they haven't been exposed to some of the ideas that some of our generation sort of takes for granted. So that's, that's one piece is if we got to make the bar for entry simpler. And then the other piece is, in working with men, particularly, if you're trying to do transformative work with men. And you don't have a connection with wise elders, and you don't have a connection with, let's just call it a higher power, that to use the language of recovery, whatever that means to a source of power beyond yourself. And if the outcome does not lead to those men, treating people of all genders better than it's seriously deficient at best. Yeah, absolutely. And there is transformative work out there that does help men treat everybody better, including themselves.

Stephen Bradford Long 11:33
God, I would love to talk more about that. And you're hitting on on all of my wheel houses in those two points that you just made. But so so let's move on to your book, though, you, you wrote, I read some of it over the past couple of days, I have never read your writing. We've spoken a lot. But I don't think I've ever read your writing. And you're just such a gorgeous writer, you your prose is really beautiful. You have a new book called How not to be afraid. And let's start with Northern Ireland, growing up in Northern Ireland, and how that shaped the message that you're trying to convey in this book.

Gareth Higgins 12:14
Yeah, well, you know, right now I'm looking out the window at the exact view, well, not the exact way I'm looking at this, I'm looking in the same direction that the view from my childhood home had and a bit closer. Don't I'm further down the hill from the house I grew up in, but currently in an apartment that's very close to where I grew up, and I'm looking out over Belfast lock, which is where it's famous for being where the Titanic left, on our way to Southampton, before she was officially launched. And so one thing to say is like, I can't imagine my life without being so close to water, and coastal water in particular. And so, you know, it would be easy, in some, some respects, obvious to me to talk about Northern Ireland, and the political conflict and the political peacebuilding process here as being the most important aspect of my childhood and my formation, and it may well be, but it's also very important that I grew up on the coast, because growing up on the coast, and growing up on an island, I think has at least two impacts or had on me, one was, the Coast meant it was easy to imagine a vision of something bigger, what's out there, what's what's over the other side. And being on an island meant, it was easy to feel like you could be effective in your activism, because you're dealing with a very small place. That may sound paradoxical given that we were living through a civil conflict that took the lives of so many people physically injured, so many more people and seemed like, you know, it was it was this, this, this cut right through the center of our society, and everybody experienced the suffering. But from before I was even born, I was born 1975, before I was even born, there were people involved in peace and reconciliation work here, in this place, this place that is legally called Northern Ireland. But the people who live here and who care about this place, disagree about what it should be called. Some people call it the north of Ireland, I call it Northern Ireland with a small n, I spell it with a small n as a way of saying, we need to come up with language that can either try to meet everybody's needs or not pick one side or the other. I want to be on the side of the Reconciler. I want to be on the side of the healer is on the side of the nonviolent and there are people on whose shoulders my generation stands who, when the violence was at its height, were risking their lives, to speak with the people who were supporting the use of violence and also seeking to make a more just society. So that the reasons some people felt they had for using violence would be be addressed. And then nobody would feel like they had any reasons to use violence. So I'm definitely shaped by growing up in a society to have this awfulness happen in it. And, and very painful things happen to my family and to people close to me. And the ceasefires that paved the way for the official peace process took place when I was 19 years old. So my entire childhood, there was active civil conflict, living here and being born into it, it was sorted. At one level, it was normal unless it actually directly affected a loved one. And like I say, it did directly affect my family. And some people I care about suffered. It sanitizes it to say bereavement, family members of people that I know, well were killed, they were murdered. And and some of those peoples are people who to put them on a pedestal would actually be to disrespect them, because they don't want to be more than human. They don't want to be known for what they suffered. But I have this deep respect for people who did experience such a terror, because many of them stayed here and got involved in trying to make this place better, even in the face of such terrible loss. So I'd say growing up in a place that was small enough that you could see change happening, and you could participate in it growing up by water. And I think there is a kind of like a poetic thing about water, maybe even a spiritual thing. But being near water, I still feel even when I'm in Asheville, I like to go and be by lakes. They're not the same as being on the coast. But I like being by lakes and rivers. And I think humans generally probably just like to be by water, and then to be around this terrible thing, this big dramatic thing. And then to see it change, to see it change, and to be invited in a very small way to be. Alongside that change. As a lot of people, my generation were to be involved in peacebuilding is, I mean, I could say it's a gift, I could say it's a burden, I could say it's a mixed blessing, I could just say it is what it is, it is what it is. And your story is just as interesting. That's maybe the last thing is that it can be too easy for people from where I'm from, to pump up our own stories, or to see our own stories as being more valid than other people. And that's something I'm really keen to work with. Particularly lately, I've been thinking a lot about how do you tell stories in a compelling way, that that can speak deeply to people, but doesn't make you the subject of the story or the center of the story that actually helps people see themselves as being just anything magical that they feel about the story is already inside them. And they are just as valuable as anything valuable in the story.

Stephen Bradford Long 17:54
So it sounds like part of your work is helping peep and this includes men, this includes all people that you work with is helping them tell a story about their own lives, maybe that can instill hope for them and can instill kind of a greater sense of, of, or well being or healing. How do you tell us? How do you tell a story of your life and of the world in such a way that it creates for lack of a better term progress? Am I right about that? Is that the vibe that I'm getting?

Gareth Higgins 18:32
Yeah, I mean, it's bigger than you said, for lack of a better word, progress. There's a bigger word, I don't quite know what it is. It might be life might be like, maybe it's life. Maybe it's maybe it's love. But I think you know what it seems to be there's building blocks here. One is, human beings are storytellers. We create meaning through the stories we tell and our experience of reality always has, even if it's just as a thin film of interpretation. Our experience is always mediated through a story we're telling about it. Like, what does it mean that this thing is happening to me? So reality is never just reality? It's it's the way we experience it is the story we tell? Yes. I think those two statements are pretty clearly objectively true statements. Human beings are storytellers. And our experience of reality is the story we tell about it. Not Not it's not. It's not objectively the reality itself. I think the third thing is most of us don't know this. The fourth thing is most of us are living unconsciously stories that other people told us.

Stephen Bradford Long 19:39
Yeah, they're zombie stories. They're just they're just walking. They aren't there. They're there. If they're unconscious, they're they're just shambling along they're unconscious there zombie stories.

Gareth Higgins 19:49
Yeah. Unless you wake up from it. I'm not I don't want to condescend to people because this was this is I think this is just our culture. All of us are born into stories that other people tell that if you have really conscious storytellers in your life, family members, teachers, whatever it may be somebody told you that, or maybe something arose inside you, which, you know, might be a spiritual thing might be you were in the right place at the right time, then maybe you woke up out of this earlier, but most of us don't wake up. Most of us don't.

Stephen Bradford Long 20:23
And that's just human nature that that isn't Yeah, that I don't even know if that's specific to our culture. That's just the way human beings are. That's our default. Right?

Gareth Higgins 20:32
I think it's our default. I do think it's our default in this culture. I don't know enough about other cultures to speak to that. And I don't know. Therefore, I don't know if it's human nature, human culture. I do feel like it's pretty observable. Most people in our shared culture, which is cultural, it used to be called the West, right? Most people seem to be unconscious of the story they're telling or the fact that they are a storyteller, and that it takes some kind of intervention or initiatory process to wake us up out of this. There are some lovely examples in in fictional storyteller, one of one of my favorite is, in Field of Dreams. There's a moment where Kevin Costner, his brother in law play by Timothy Busfield, who's a banker, who cannot see the ghostly baseball players who have come to practice. And Kevin Costner and Amy Madigan's farm, he just can't see them. They're standing there, the audience can see them, everybody else can see them, but he can't. And then a crisis happens that he causes where he he initiates a series of events that nearly leads to the death of his of his niece. And then she gets fixed and everything's fine. And that kind of shock trauma crisis after he is sure that the girls okay. He's in this kind of this, the reverberation of the shock is happening. And he's looking around. And he says, When did all these ballplayers get here? Right? Yeah. And I think that's a beautiful picture of intervention initiation, that something needs to happen to us. And it doesn't have to be a tragic shock. But it often is, it often is a death or the end of a relationship or a sense of failure in something that creates the space in which we can reimagine the story and maybe see things that were not there before. Now, I'm not an expert on this. I didn't realize that the reason Jiminy Cricket is called Jiminy Cricket, is that he's a cricket until last night, so don't be don't be thinking that I'm an expert. I often don't I was watching the new Pinocchio was like, Oh, he's a cricket column Jiminy Cricket. I've never understood that

Stephen Bradford Long 22:48
you're not claiming to be a Jordan Peterson who had come up with weird in depth narrative archetypes of for crickets and in Gemini and Belize of the

Gareth Higgins 23:03
Jiminy Cricket does represent something archetypal. Of course, of course, there's sonification of conscience, but

Stephen Bradford Long 23:08
basically you're you're you're you're going you're you're like the jinn the gay, ginger, Irish teddy bear, Jordan Peterson, who is who isn't also a weird creep. Oh, God

Gareth Higgins 23:24
bless, everybody. And let's, let's let's leave Jordan Peterson out a bit.

Stephen Bradford Long 23:31
I can't I can't I can't leave Jordan Peterson out of anything, because I'm so you're certainly fascinated with them. It's a morbid fascination. I cannot look away.

Gareth Higgins 23:40
Because I'll say this, it No, go ahead. Well, no, just just

Stephen Bradford Long 23:44
because he represents I mean, speaking of stories, speaking, speaking of stories, he is telling a story that is capturing people's imagination in what would previously be called the West, especially among men. And I am fascinated by what that story is, and why him why Jordan Peterson and there's there's a as is so often the case with with kind of far right conservative thinkers. So I read a lot of books by conservatives and I listened to a lot of podcasts. And as always, there's always an element there, where I'm like, there's real value there. But I wish someone else had written this. Right. And so I wish, I wish someone else had written 1212 rules for life. There's something valuable there. But it's almost like a shadow of what it could could have been. Well,

Gareth Higgins 24:42
and all I would say to in response to that is, I wish I could be in conversation with him. Me too. Like I wish I could be in conversation with anybody who I think is making an honest attempt to mean to me I think he's making an honest attempt from within his world to The same meaningful things. And sometimes

Stephen Bradford Long 25:02
he does. Yeah, exactly. Sometimes growing up very profound. Yeah.

Gareth Higgins 25:06
So growing up in this part of the world, it's it's quite easy for me to resonate with what you just said about I wish someone else had written it because sometimes people who, whose politics were implacably opposed to mine on who might even want to implement decisions that would hurt me. They also said things that were true. And they may have been the only people who were saying those things. And that's one of the things I mean, about we got to make the bar lower entry to the community of the common good.

Stephen Bradford Long 25:35
So so we were you were talking about that, just before we started recording? Could you could you kind of explain what you mean by that, we need to lower the bar of entry.

Gareth Higgins 25:45
So if if we tell people you can't join our movement, because you haven't read the right, academic treat is on this particular issue? Or you have you are you don't know the quote unquote, right terminology. Or you're, you're you're you're brave enough to say out loud, I haven't figured out what I think about these questions yet. Yeah, I'd like to learn more. If we, if we tell people that, then we're going to be at the very least ineffective movements, we're going to shrink the number of people who can who can be involved. We, I think we have to be there have to be certain kinds of common values or virtues, to me Do no harm would be that that's, that's maybe the only one actually that we need to all agree upon. Do no harm. Now, of course, people will then define what harm means. And I'm, I'm only in a position to define it for myself, and I want to listen to you and I want to listen to other people and ensure that the table is, is is. I was gonna say broad enough. But I don't know that I want a broad table, the table is inclusive enough and consciously engaged with people who represent those whose voices have not been heard at the center. Of course, having said that, it tends not to be the people representing historically marginalized groups who are the most ideologically purist. Yeah, I think it tends to be. My sense is that it's kind of white middle class cisgender. People like me, who I suspect are trying sincerely, to do something good, but it's motivated by guilt. And, and it's motivated by fear to some degree compassions in there as well. Really, what I'm saying is, we need to be less perfectionist. And we need to be less perfectionist in the way we talk and listen with each other. And to go back to Jordan Peterson, if he were here, I'd want to engage him in conversation, I'd want to say, hey, tell me more about this. I'd want to say to him, you know, when people call you a far right conservative, what's your response? Because I know that he does not hold all the political positions that and traditional far right conservatives would hold. I also somebody says at least 20 years ago, that's, that's far more important to me than what I think about Jordan Peterson, or any one individual thinker or a teacher. And that is don't ever say that you know what somebody's motivation is unless they've told you what their motivation is, and even then, be skeptical, because they might not have told you the truth. Or they might, they might have told you the best they can. And they're not even fully aware of it. And this was in the context of me. I was writing a piece at the time, I was a sociology grad student writing about people who believe that the Pope is the Antichrist. And I, the there was a professor who challenged me because I was using this phrase frequently in the piece, saying that people who have this belief, use this belief to reinforce their politics. That was the phrase I said, they use this religious belief to reinforce their political prejudice. And the professor said to me, how do you know that they use it? And I and I stumbled? And he said, did any of them tell you that they use it? And I said, No, none of them told me that they use it. He said, is it not possible that they actually just believe it? That they're not using it? It happened? It coincides Yes. And they the two beliefs, the political belief, and religiously feed off each other. But there's nobody Machiavellian sitting in an underground chamber with a blueprint rubbing their hands together and saying, I'm going to take my religious belief, which I don't really believe, and I'm going to use it to bolster my religious bigotry, which I think will achieve things for me in the long run. He said the simpler and the more accurate interpretation is these folks just genuinely believe that. Now then you get into why do they believe that? And why have they not been exposed to other ideas and what happens when you do expose people to other ideas and how quickly those beliefs erode and get replaced with something else. I want communities to agree to do no harm to each other and to the members of the communities and to have some broad agreement about what doing no harm with me and I want to not in impute motive to people, without them telling me what their motive is. And even when they tell me what their motive is, I want to be skeptical. Or at least curious about

Stephen Bradford Long 30:08
that. And I also want to, you know, just clarify to everyone listening, even if sometimes I'm critical of Jordan Peterson, I also know a lot of people whose lives have been by my eyes changed for the better by, by him. And if you are one of those people, I'm not going to, I don't want to take that away from you, you know, I celebrate the fact that he that that, you know, if you had an addiction, or if you were in a dark place in life, and he was one of the people who got you out of that, that's great. And I'm happy for you. And I'm glad that he was, I'm glad that he was there in your life at the right time to help you do that. So in, you know, he's a complex figure, and people are complex, and that I feel like that's one of the other implicit messages that you're getting at is, are we telling a story in which people can be complicated? In which someone, you know, are we telling a story in which someone can be can can have complex motives that maybe we don't know, someone can, can someone can be someone can can be motivated, or someone can be doing the best they they know how to do with what they have been given? And still do a certain amount of harm, despite the Sure.

Gareth Higgins 31:27
Like me, like me,

Stephen Bradford Long 31:28
exactly. Well, well, also, like, I don't know, I think sometimes people sometimes I think people sometimes have a hard time understanding. And by people, I mean, some people online, you know, so a few people on Twitter, a small handful of them, I think, sometimes have a hard time understanding why I have so much time for people who just have, I think terrible beliefs, who have terrible beliefs about trans people about gay people, about me, as a gay person, about people of different faiths. And I actually have a lot of time for for those people. And I have a lot of time for them, because I was once one of them. And the reason why I'm no longer one of them, is because people had time for me, they would hear me out, they would, they would talk to me. And their barrier for entry, or their their bar for entry was really low. It was low enough for someone like me, who had pretty toxic beliefs, to enter their space and communicate. And not everyone should do that. Depending, you know, if you're, if you're trans, maybe don't talk to transphobes, that's great, protect yourself, I also can't deny the fact that I am who I am. And I am, where I am now. Because other people were generous, and compassionate, and kind and saw my humanity and chose to help me work through my stories. And that's why I am where I am.

Gareth Higgins 33:13
The it's funny, I don't want to lose the thought of this. I would love to see Jordan Peterson be in dialogue. And I mean, genuine dialogue, curiosity, asking questions and listening with Adrian Marie Brown, who, if if you know people, some people listening will know who Adrian Marie Brown is, and someone who represents a world of difference. But compassion, passion, courage, humor, and curiosity. And that's the piece curiosity. I think you're absolutely right. Like, there's no part of what's happened in the last 20 years with social media and an online connection is that we're starting because we have the capacity to be in conversation with anyone. There's sort of this assumption that we should be or that the default is we should be and that you're bad if you don't, and then how do you decide like, before, before email came along? I couldn't talk to people all the time. Yeah. And people didn't have my phone number

Stephen Bradford Long 34:16
you couldn't break in as a physics, right?

Gareth Higgins 34:18
Yeah, yeah. So no, like, if it's dangerous, don't, you know, make your own decisions about what you are called to what you're called to step into. Seek allies who will speak instead of you in places that might be risky, even, you know, whether it's risk to your emotional health or certain physical risk, most of the time, it's not. Okay. Most of the time. It's about discomfort and peace building here in Northern Ireland. Most of the peace building that has been done has been between people who were politically different, but they didn't pose each other a threat. There were people and it was the smallest number of people who went consciously to talk with people who might be posing a physical threat, it's always gonna be the smallest number that do that. It only needs to be the smallest number of people that do that. Because the people that pose the direct physical threat are also the smallest number of people in those political movements. Yeah. So. And yes, there is a noble and effective history in nonviolent movements, where people did form human chains to prevent someone getting down the street, who who did someone harm, or, you know, lived, lived, the Underground Railroad, or, of course, all adds up. But it's always the smaller number of people that are involved in that work. That does not mean that the rest of us lack courage or aren't our don't care, it just, it just means you discern what you're called to do. One of my favorite people here, in this place in the north of Ireland, someone I only met on a handful of occasions. I wish I had known him more. Father, Jerry Reynolds, a Redemptorist, Catholic priest, with a beautiful, soft, gentle voice that I like to say, he could talk to you about the about the chemical reactions that go on in the mixing of cement, and it would still, it would still heal your inner child, just listen to him talk to you about that. Right, right. And he was deeply involved in peacebuilding. And because peace is a nice gentle word, it sometimes masks the hardest parts of it, you know, it meant danger at the brutality. Yeah. And yeah, and I think and it meant exhaustion. And it just meant a lot of time being given to this. And Father, Jerry died a few years ago, we live to be a brave old age. And I was talking with someone who knew him very, very well. The other week, a guy called Edie from New Jersey, who lives here in Belfast, and is and is involved in carrying on peace work. A lot of people from the US have come to live in Ireland and have been, have made beautiful contributions here. And was saying to me that father, Jerry spoke about himself as having an L plate on his chest. Now an L plate is what in the UK, a learning driver puts in the back window. On the front window of the car, when they're learning to drive. L stands for learner. And it shows the other drivers on the road that this is someone who doesn't know how to drive yet. We're all learning. We're all there. We're all learners. And this man mean, Father, Jerry was awarded one of the most prestigious piece awards on the planet. And he still said, I have an L plate, I have an L plate on my chest. And that's, that's what I want. That's what I want. That's actually to me, that could be a foundational story along with do no harm. Recognize we all have an L plate in something than to extend the metaphor. After you get your driving test here in the the part of Ireland that is legally called the United Kingdom, the L plate comes down, but you don't put up an E plate for expert, you put up an R plate for I think it stands for restricted. And that means for the first year, after you've got your driving test, there are limits to where you can drive and how fast you can drive. So you have like a year on probation. It's, as it were, you know, you're easing in. So we all have an L plate for something, we all have an our plate for something. And then each of us has one or two things. That's the thing. We know the thing we know, unusually, it's something that came through hard experience. And if we truly know it, it'll just be what people pick up on by being around us. But we'll also share it with humility. You know, we'll also say, Well, if you ever want to talk about that, I'd be glad to chat with you about those things. We don't need to put out a press release every time we've discovered something. I mean, sometimes we need to intervene and stop someone putting their hand in a fire. If they don't know the fire is going to burn them. But for the most part knowledge and and the telling of stories can be transmitted slowly over time. And the story that we have, that our culture is burdened with at the moment, is a fearful one. It's one that says we're in the midst of apocalypse. And we define apocalypse is catastrophe. But as you well know from your deep study of, of ancient Greek Apocalypse does not actually mean catastrophe. It means Revelation. Yeah, it means unveiling and so it isn't apocalyptic moment. I think it's a moment where more is being unveiled about who humans are and what were for. But I don't think we're living in a moment of catastrophe. You know, everyone could be having any anyone listening to this show might actually be having a catastrophic moment in your life right now. If, and if we were with you, we would seek to care for you and protect you and bind your wounds and be with you through that pain. But what our world our culture is going through at the moment is revelatory of who we really are. And what the possibilities are. There's a lot of mass, there's a lot of pain, there's a lot of shadow, there's a lot of rage. And there's a lot of connection. And there's a lot of fertility, and there's a lot of growth, and there is a lot of love. And there is a lot of healthy grief work going on. And there are a lot of people of privilege waking up to not only our responsibility to serve the common good, but that our lives will be better, the more we can become less selfish. That actually, the path of becoming less selfish is joyful for the person who's doing it again, I only I barely have an L plate and becoming less selfish. I'm not even sure I've been given the L plate yet I, I would like to learn to be less selfish. I do know from being around people who are like that, and from tasting a little bit of what that's like, there's more joy. On the other side of transcending individualism, there is more joy, on the other side of giving up, needing to possess everything for yourself,

Stephen Bradford Long 41:17
you know, this is all reminding me of something that you said to me years ago, that has like, stuck with me ever since. And I've thought about a lot. And it had to do with privilege. And this was just something that you said in passing at the store. You know, we we have like a bunch of little conversations at the store over the years that like add up to big conversations. And I forget the context of this conversation, but we were talking about the concept of privilege, and how hard it is for some people to to grasp. And some people really struggle with the word privilege and what that means, especially if say, they come from a lower class background. And there's a lot of anger around that phrase, because of connotations that they that that that it can be imbued with for some people, right? And you said, Well, it's really simple. Everyone has an area where they have power, and everyone has an area in their life where they have some weakness. And when you identify those things, now, you know how you are meant to serve others. And it is that simple. I don't know if that's exactly the wording you use. But that was the basic idea. And that, and I thought that that was just such a helpful way of articulating this emotionally fraught topic of privilege. And it's it's such a helpful way of of cutting through all of that anxiety and all of that angst, and and getting to the heart of what I think privilege is the word the concept privileges, is trying to get out. Does that make sense? Am I is that? Is that making sense?

Gareth Higgins 43:24
Yeah, I mean, so my friend David Lamott, musician, he's a great guy. Yeah, he's Yeah, bring, bring what you have and ask for what you need. Exactly. Like, that's the way he puts it. And there's no one who doesn't have something and there's no one who doesn't lack something. And clearly, there are some people who have a lot more power Absolutely, than others. And, and it even comes down to the mean, some of us are challenged in the area of power over our own our own bodies, power over our own thoughts. And then there's people who have the power to launch missiles, and on who sometimes do it. And so privilege has kind of become a buzzword, and maybe a bit of jargon. That may not be helpful. I'd rather talk in terms of power and resources.

Stephen Bradford Long 44:17
Yeah, no, I I agree with that. I think what I'm hearing and all of this, it really sounds like the poetic incarnation of CBT cognitive behavioral therapy and but but much less you know, there's there's kind of a sterility and, and coldness to CBT, which actually, you know, for the best therapists I've ever had have been CBT therapists who were very, like, cut and dry, they would talk to me for five minutes or 10 minutes and they would be like, Okay, here's this cognitive distortion. You're going to work on this for next week. Here's how you're going to work on it by so you see you next week, that it was just like, very cool. Old, very to the point very much like, you know, a a gym coach being like, you're going to do this thing for the next week, we'll see you next time, bye. But that was the best, it was the best therapy that I ever got. And what it revealed to me was just how much my thoughts were shaping. Were my perception of RIA, there is no, there is no difference between our thoughts and our perception of reality, they're one in the same thing. And helping me become aware of in terms of CBT, my cognitive distortions, the the things that I believe that are that are distortions of what's true, or are perhaps telling me a story that isn't helpful to me. And what you're describing is a much more kind of spiritual kind of CBT, for lack of a better term. Does that make sense? That'd be kind of a poetic CBT.

Gareth Higgins 46:07
Sure. And it's not about to me it's not about reframing a story in a direction. That's just better. Because it feels better. I think it's better because it's true. It's true. I do think that there's, there's like, there's wisdom, and the truth shall set you free. Now, we'll never know what the full truth is, but we can get closer to it. And that's why we need our plates. Right? To be curious, is this really true? Has this really happened is where am I in relation to the story, maybe the best part of it, I'll give you an example. I had an experience a few years ago, where I was going to have a drink with a friend. And they got to the pub before me. And they texted me to say that someone else was in the pub, who they thought I might feel awkward being around someone I'd known a long time ago. And just someone you know, the way sometimes you bump into people that you went to high school with, it's like, Oh, I really don't want to see them right now. Hopefully, we've all had experiences where you bump into them, and you realize they were thinking the same thing. And then you have a really nice conversation.

Stephen Bradford Long 47:04
I, by the way, that is that is my life as a grocery store manager in this small town where I grew up. Yeah, literally come in, right. Yes, people come in. Really bad grinder. hookup just walks in. That really, or you know that that friend from high school who said terrible things to you, or vice versa, walks in, and suddenly you have to somehow deal with that.

Gareth Higgins 47:29
And sometimes they apologize. Yes. And sometimes they say they say it's really nice to see you and they connect with you. And you're like, wow, I didn't connect with this person 30 years ago, but we have a nice connection. Now. And so my friend texted me to say so and so is there. And I immediately felt like the walls were closing it. I just felt triggered. I guess I'm this person hadn't really done anything. They've just not been particularly warm to me. And I and I just was feeling vulnerable. So the story I could tell about that was I felt terrible because this person was going to be in the pub. That could be the story. Or I could tell the story. Wow. The friend who I was meeting cared enough about me to notice, oh, Gareth, might feel awkward if he sees this person in the pub. And so he texted me to say, Would you like to go to a different pub instead? Now which story is true, and which story is better? It's it's the more comprehensive one, which is like the headline is not person who was once not very nice to me in 1992 is in a pub. I can't go into the pub, then. I could tell the story that way. But the truer story is another person cares enough about me to tell me to notice. And that if I in the moment I didn't think about it that way but in the moment if I could have let his love in his name is Simon if I could let Simon's love for me really permeate me. It would have been enough for me to go to that pub go up to the guy that I'd gone to school with and say hi. Remember, we went to school together? And you know to just ally myself field. So feel that love? No. People will often when you talk about poetic CBT one of the you know the thing that hasn't really evolved yet in the in let's call it in the in the world of medicine people and I consider the vet, you know, therapists to be medicine people and I've benefited greatly from therapists who I think truly were medicine people, sacred medicine people. And they were doing things like CBT and sensorimotor psychotherapy with me we were doing that together. But the thing that hasn't really evolved there yet, is to knit together the individual story transformation with the structural realities of our lives because It's one thing to work on the story of recovery from abusive experiences, it's another to go back into the house where those abusive experiences are still happening. It's one thing to work on the fear you might have about what might happen politically. And it's another thing to go back into the society where you can't control other people's behavior. And I haven't quite seen enough of a knitting together of how individual healing work, I guess you could, you could use an even more conventional example, if you have problems with your lungs because of air quality. And you and you take medicine, maybe you have surgery, because your lungs have been damaged. But you're still living in an environment where the air quality is poor. Yep, that's not your fault. And it's also not something that you can totally transform by yourself. Yeah,

Stephen Bradford Long 50:57
there's a ceiling. Why other words,

Gareth Higgins 50:59
there is a ceiling, but I don't think there's this, I don't think the ceiling applies to the human soul. Right? I think the soul or the spirit, or the person can actually transform all of this. And I and I, it's not so much from my own experience. And I think that it's because people who suffered, incomparably worse than whatever suffering has been in my life, have written about how they transformed that suffering. And some of them even later died as a result of the suffering. I'm thinking about people. Like Deitrich Bonhoeffer, and I'm thinking about people like Eddie hilason, murdered in the Holocaust and who's writing is is is, is mystical contemplation filled with love and courage. And they still killed her. Right? And I don't, I'm not concerned blase. I don't mean that that way, I think about Nelson Mandela, you know, coming out of prisons and refusing to hate the people who deserved his, at least deserve to be held accountable for what they have done by, you know, maliciously imprisoning him, nevermind the apartheid regime in general. So that I don't think the ceiling applies to the to the potential of human individual experience, I think there are people who have had transformational experiences that are not spiritual bypassing, they're not denying the reality of the suffering. They're just living a bigger story. And the bigger story might well be I woke up this morning, on a spinning bowl of blue, hanging out there in the universe, surrounded by stars on the sun, in which I am literally made from the star dust from stars that died a long, long time ago. And I get to talk to another embodiment of Stardust and imagine what a more loving world could look like. Like, there are days when that is more than enough for me where the ceiling comes in. And I, I love I love you calling it a ceiling, I'm actually seeing a picture of like a box or just a room, like a room on a sitcom, where you're looking into the room or maybe even looking like the here, it's a doll house, there's no front on it. We're looking into it. And we're going to how could we raise the ceiling? How could we why there shouldn't be a door there or there needs to be a wall there. And that's why we do this storytelling community. And that's why some communities that don't do very healthy things are full of people, because people need to be in community, and they will go to the community that invites them. So we do this thing called porch circles, where we gather in groups of between three to eight people, you need three people to make it a community. Eight is about the eight is kind of the ceiling on the number of people who can have a meaningful conversation, and one go, but there's no no rules. We're not going to, you're not going to get in trouble if you bring 11 people. And we we just asked four questions. The first two questions are about stuff that's going on on the inside. The first one is, what's something that's life giving to you since we last met? Just one thing. And the second question is, what's something that's not life giving or draining you or challenging you since we last met? Just one thing? Those two questions elicit far richer and more meaningful answers than how're you doing? Right. The third question, what's the new story that you feel called to live between now and when we next meet, give one concrete example. So you know, we all want to change the world. We all want to bring peace on earth, or some of us just want to be left alone. Right? Or some of us feel that the best way that we could bring peace on earth would be to be left alone. This question is a bit deeper than that. Give one concrete example of the new story you want to live. I always it's funny, Steven, I think this may have been come from you years and years ago, one of the examples I give when I'm telling people about this storytelling method is I want to when I'm next in a grocery store, have eye contact with the person serving me at the checkout, say hello and smile app. So that's what I want. That's what I want to do. And that, of course, it's like a, you know, it's like dominoes. It leads to you doing other things, and I want to open myself to the person serving me might want to have eye contact with me to they have a story that could, that could be a gift to Me, too. So that's the third question. And then the last one. And this is where we get into raising the ceiling and opening the doors or maybe knocking down the walls that need to be knocked done, what's the help that you need? And what's the help that you can offer. And yet, there are massive global and geopolitical and national issues that none of us are quite sure how we can help. But there are also most of the stuff that's faced facing most of us on a day to day basis, could be helped by a group of, of three people, or eight people saying, you can't pay your rent, we're going to help you pay your rent, you need a babysitter, and you can't afford a babysitter so that you can get out for an evening of enjoyment by yourself or with your partner, we're going to pay for the babysitter, or we'll provide the babysitting, you are having an existential crisis, and you need someone to go for a walk with you every Saturday for the rest of your life. Just to help you walk through that, well, maybe we'll do the next two Saturdays, and we'll we'll see where we're at after two Saturday. This is the way people have always done it. Our Western industrial culture makes it at one level easier for us to connect with each other and to have these conversations. But it doesn't encourage us to do so. And somebody always has to go first. And that's all it takes. Somebody went before me. I learned from them. I'm with other people, we were in these kinds of conversations all the time. There's no ceiling to the potential transformation of the of the soul. And where there is a ceiling in people's experience of reality. Even though that experience is a story. You'd want to help from a place of compassion, because a story about compassion would be a better story to live the mystery of its selfishness.

Stephen Bradford Long 57:27
I think that's a great note to end on. As always, every time we talk, I feel like that we can go for many more hours. But this has been great. And you're welcome back anytime. I would love to do this again. Hopefully, not in you know, six years. Or let's see. No, I yeah, I think it's been. So we I think we did our first show together. In 2017. Really? 1819. Wow, wow. So five year, five years. So you're welcome back? And definitely, before five years has passed?

Gareth Higgins 57:58
Oh, yeah. Well, every time we talk, I always feel and I really mean this, that you're one of the best things about western North Carolina. Oh, that. You bring such you bring such a gift. And you helped me calibrate and recalibrate my thoughts. So you too, for sure. Get it Get a t shirt designed for your podcast that has an L plate on it. I will your body and your own body and then modeling that curiosity, which is just what the world needs. Well, thank you. I appreciate the world also needs to buy my book right? This is when your world

Stephen Bradford Long 58:35
definitely needs to buy your book. It's called How not to be afraid. Everyone should go read it. It has a gorgeous like turquoise green cover. And people should go buy it online. And yeah, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. If you could send me the link to the best place to buy your book

Gareth Higgins 58:52
is go to how not to be afraid.com and it has links on it. Perfect.

Stephen Bradford Long 58:56
I will post that in the show notes. Yeah, and I would love to do this again. I would love to have you if you're up for it. I would love to have you be a returning guest

Gareth Higgins 59:06
No thank you. Appreciate it. Glad to glad to

Stephen Bradford Long 59:09
awesome All right. Well, that is it for this show. The music is by eleventy seven the theme song is wild. You can find it on Apple Music Spotify, or wherever you listen to music This show is written produced and edited by me Steven Bradford long and it is supported by my patrons@patreon.com forward slash Steven Bradford long as always Hail Satan. And thanks for listening